England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

beshocked wrote:


cascough a 10-12-13 of Farrell-T'eo and Davies is lacking a bit of creativity though. Too much boshing IMO.

Any more lacking than Farrel Barrit Tuilagi?

According to Gatlands latest outburst Teo was slected because of his offloading game and footwork, not to be a bash merchant.

We will see.

SamTheQuin wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Try the block function Chris

Think you have some problems, namely being an absolute bell end.

Nice, thanks

Poorfour wrote:Very true Carlos. It's one of the fascinating things about having Eddie in charge - in the past he has had a fairly limited pool of players and has pushed so hard that he's eventually burned them out. With England, he has a lot of opportunity to bring through new players - and seems to have done so quite judiciously. I want to see if he can keep it up - and I think this tour will give us a good idea of who we might expect to bring through.

On the subject of bringing through young, dangerous wingers, Gabriel Ibitoye in the U20s looks really exciting, if a little raw positionally...

Agreed, I hope that Jones continues bring young players through as he has.

The Nathan Catt situation was one I though Jones dealt with well. When Vunipola and Marler were both fit Catt was named in the squad as 3rd LH to have a look at him. When Mako was injured, Mullan was called up and it swiftly became clear he was second choice and would be benching behind Marler. It's a good example of exposing a player to a squad but not pushing them further than the coaches clearly thought he was capable.

If Launchbury or Ewels are injured in the 1st test this summer a similarly interesting situation with Isiekwe would occur. I'm very happy to have Isiekwe on tour and coming off the bench. Frankly there are locks at home who I think are more prepared to start a test currently, although I accept Isiekwe has the potential to go further in international rugby than they now will. If Launchbury or Ewels were injured (touch wood not) it would be interesting to see which locks started after a replacement were called up.

Ibitoye looks like another raw talent in the u20 back three. I'd like to see young talents such as that called up to train for a day or two with the EPS during international windows. It happens occasionally but as little more than tackle bag holders a lot of the time. It's another practice the ABs do well, in fact I think Jordie Barrett was with their November tour squad as an 'apprentice' to 'learn about the pressures of being an All Black'.

Eddie's been calling up the young guns pretty consistently. Sinckler and Marchant had several trips to camp before being part of the full squad (shame Marchant was injured - would have loved to see him get a runout).

Your right Poorfour...

I may be completely wrong but I could swear Calum Chick spent a few days down with the senior squad a wee while ago.

Its not about selection or anything...It just gives the young kids with real potential an idea of the levels they need to be hitting and gives the coaches a chance to tell the players what they need to be working on over the next few years...

Eddie's said explicitly that the EPS is about the long term squad and the training squads are about the current tournament.

And most of us would agree with that view....

Sorry guys, I know we do have to offer a semblance of experience but honestly Yarde has shown NOTHING this year to deserve this selection. Where as Wade has reached heights that Yarde's talent will never stretch to. And remember this is Jones's big opportunity to check players out. What a lost opportunity.

Add to this we are still selecting the very much PAST IT Brown who is a complete HAS BEEN. We need to move on and get with the program - for god sake watch the game being played in NZ it is light years beyond Brown and Yarde, and quite frankly May is on thin ice even if his performance against a very average Barbarians was the best 'rugby' game he's played for the national side for a good while.

With whats available to us i'd rather see care, ford, wade, Devoto, Slade, May, Lozowski.

We need players who are comfortable passing the ball at pace, who have the spacial awareness/rugby intelligence to see and attack space thus creating opportunities.

Really guys is it not obvious that we HAVE TO raise our game.

kingelderfield wrote:Sorry guys, I know we do have to offer a semblance of experience but honestly Yarde has shown NOTHING this year to deserve this selection. Where as Wade has reached heights that Yarde's talent will never stretch to. And remember this is Jones's big opportunity to check players out. What a lost opportunity.

Add to this we are still selecting the very much PAST IT Brown who is a complete HAS BEEN. We need to move on and get with the program - for god sake watch the game being played in NZ it is light years beyond Brown and Yarde, and quite frankly May is on thin ice even if his performance against a very average Barbarians was the best 'rugby' game he's played for the national side for a good while.

With whats available to us i'd rather see care, ford, wade, Devoto, Slade, May, Lozowski.

We need players who are comfortable passing the ball at pace, who have the spacial awareness/rugby intelligence to see and attack space thus creating opportunities.

Really guys is it not obvious that we HAVE TO raise our game.

*sigh

A few months is a long time in this game obviously. May's best performance was last autumn vs Argentina when he played wing on both sides of the pitch at the same time.

Yarde obviously does stuff for England that Eddie likes. Nobody doubts Wade's dancing feet, and it is sad that we are unlikely to see much of him at the top level, but as has been endlessly debated around these parts we want different things from international wings than we do at club level, and Yarde will do a job

Worthwhile also mentioning that over the last few years the two players who most often score the most spectacular tries in the AP are Wade and May.

And as for Brown. We have an inexperienced back line. Brown will hold everything together. He isn't going to be there for ever but he's still useful in the short term.

Brown is finished at this level. Move on.

I think what you're suggesting is that Jones has favourites because the argument supporting Yarde is nonsense. How many chances to fail has he had?

Wade doesn't just score the most spectacular tries in the AP. He scores the most tries!......period.

The best finisher we have in England & scores tries that no other player would.

His positives far outweigh any perceived negatives by a long way.

Shame his name isn't Christian Jones as he would be in NZ right now.

Tbf there us one player out scoring wade at present in he prem and he's on the bench.

Watson played pretty well at full back foe the lions. Need some work on his kicking though as he just goes for length at the moment.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Wade doesn't just score the most spectacular tries in the AP. He scores the most tries!......period.

The best finisher we have in England & scores tries that no other player would.

His positives far outweigh any perceived negatives by a long way.

Shame his name isn't Christian Jones as he would be in NZ right now.

Wade's defence is nowhere near good enough, it's that simple.

beshocked wrote:If that's the case why champion the likes of Yarde and Webber?

If you agree just say so. You don't need to purposely choose to disagree.

I want to see if Solomona can back up his club form.

Londontiger that's the problem though - picking someone simply because they have England caps - it was similar with Webber.

There should be a purpose to selection - not just picking someone to make up the numbers.

Yes, I've now doubt that's exactly hoe Eddie thinks, "I'll pick him just to make up the numbers"

And for the gazillionth time, form can go up and down. There was a time when Webber was looking good and as if he might have a future in the international game.

His career has effectively collapsed and he's nowhere now but a few years ago that could not have been predicted.

Yards is also the only player to bring any power to that England backline.

If you had Wade in there instead then it'd be the physically weakest backline we've probably ever fielded, in not even talking about defence either, Yardes the only guy there who's used to carrying into contact repeatedly.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Wade doesn't just score the most spectacular tries in the AP. He scores the most tries!......period.

The best finisher we have in England & scores tries that no other player would.

His positives far outweigh any perceived negatives by a long way.

Shame his name isn't Christian Jones as he would be in NZ right now.

Wade's defence is nowhere near good enough, it's that simple.

I've posted this same thing many times but I still think it's relevant to this discussion...

Whilst I would select Wade, I can understand Jones not doing so given the weaknesses in his game. That said, arguing about the defensive capabilities and all round games of England's wingers other than Nowell is like fighting over an empty crisp packet and a used condom.

Nowell - Strong in the tackle, positioning and under the high ball.
Watson - Strong in positioning and under the high ball but weak in the tackle.
May - Improving in positioning and under the high ball but not his strength, solid in the tackle.
Yarde - Poor in positioning which undermines him under the high ball. He is solid in contact given how strong he is.
Roko - Very strong in the tackle, good under the high ball but has a tendency to rush out the line. Probably next strongest defender after Nowell.
Wade - Improved in positioning and under the high ball, but still fairly weak there similar to may. Weak in the tackle but not as poor as some make out.
Solomona - Still learning the new code but is solid under the high ball and in contact. Can understandably be found out of position.
Cokanasiga - N/A - London Irish fans?

People often say things such as, imagine Savea running at Wade? Well frankly I think the outcome would be the same if he got some space one on one against all our wingers bar Nowell.

It should also be said that with England's defensive structure wingers can be badly exposed. The Gustard model works on shutting down attacks in two passes or less. It's very aggressive, especially around the fringes and when it works it can be devastating. Look at how often Sarries defence (same defensive model) is referred to as 'suffocating'. If sides get momentum through the fringes then shift the ball wide the damage is often done and wingers can be exposed. It's also why Joseph is so important to England because he uses his pace excellently in defence to cover a lot of ground in the outside channels.

Agree to a point. None of our wingers are complete defenders, they're not flankers end of the day (bar May).

The issue with Wade is, he's the worst defender from that list and he's small. May is much better under the high ball than Wade imo and has an excellent kick chase.

It's no coincidence that Wade keeps getting overlooked, he's not got the defence to step up.

In England's defensive system I'd back Wade to offer no less defensively than Yarde does. Obviously that's subjective though given we haven't seen Wade at international level properly.

That said I actually rate Yarde as well. He hasn't delivered on his early promise where he looked like a potential superstar but he is solid and brings a lot of power to his wing.

I agree that May is excellent on kick chase, mainly due to his out and out pace. I wouldn't agree he's substantially stronger than Wade under the high ball though. Both can be targeted by a good box kicker. Again he's a player I've rated for a long time though so I am biased and still think he could be an exceptional international wing. I just wish he'd get off his wing and look for the ball more.

Give it a few hours and solomona will be a cert to start right wing in the autumn internationals with calls for Watson at full back and nowell/may left wing.

Yeah your probably right 7.5

No 7&1/2 wrote:Give it a few hours and solomona will be a cert to start right wing in the autumn internationals with calls for Watson at full back and nowell/may left wing.

Watson probably is the number 1 candidate and hopefully he'll get more opportunities on tour after today's performance.

As for Solomona, ironically the question might be regards his defense. Still has to be better than Yarde who's form has only ever been patchy at best.

No the question is about his nationality.....

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Give it a few hours and solomona will be a cert to start right wing in the autumn internationals with calls for Watson at full back and nowell/may left wing.

Watson probably is the number 1 candidate and hopefully he'll get more opportunities on tour after today's performance.

As for Solomona, ironically the question might be regards his defense. Still has to be better than Yarde who's form has only ever been patchy at best.

Continued his patchy habit of scoring tries today though. Could arguably have done more to stop Argentina's first try.

Solomona was doubly horrible for Argentina's last try, but his run to score the winning try was quite wonderful.

First 5 min of debut his defense was iffy. Then the winning try. The guy is class.

Solomona will be a main stay of the England team, he may have messed up defensively early on but another year in Union and we have got a very special player there.

Was very impressed with Wilson, not sure where he figures when all backrowers are back but he looked a nuisance at the breakdown and very good defender.

Excellent win for a scratch England against a decent enough Arg at home. Some things of note: how did GF go from a 75%er to near perfect (at least for one game) – the Lions loss is our gain as he was hugely instrumental in our win on Sat, Hartley was mostly ok at hooker basics (altho our LO was poor in the 1st half) but he embarrassed himself a few times too many times IMO, Brown a bit too meh, & Wilson looked good. As for Denny boy, I’ve just done the math and a wonder try doesn’t trump the 2 tries he was involved in conceding – if we want to play the all-out attack style we should probably reconsider Wade. DS needs to hugely improve his defence to be in with a shout of a regular place – maybe give him another season or so at club level, we’re not short of wingers who do the full job better than he.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Excellent win for a scratch England against a decent enough Arg at home. Some things of note: how did GF go from a 75%er to near perfect

He kicked 71.4% Agree he was excellent though.

Scottrf wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Excellent win for a scratch England against a decent enough Arg at home. Some things of note: how did GF go from a 75%er to near perfect

He kicked 71.4% Agree he was excellent though.

I thought he was 7/8, only missing the conversion of his own try (and after his little legs ran that far he was probably a touch tired).

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Excellent win for a scratch England against a decent enough Arg at home. Some things of note: how did GF go from a 75%er to near perfect

He kicked 71.4% Agree he was excellent though.

I thought he was 7/8, only missing the conversion of his own try (and after his little legs ran that far he was probably a touch tired).

I had the wrong game Ignore me.

Surely 87.5% - that's near perfect for flaky Georgie boy. Especially as a few were tricky ones.

Anyhoo, it's only one game, but if he can keep that up OF may struggle to get a look in

The kick from the halfway line was a little good. Altitude a factor? That was close to his best game for England, similar with Nathan Hughes.

Hartley can only be there for his leadership now, even though I love Brown after the Lions tour Watson must surely start there. Jones starting to get 2-3 good players for every position now.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Excellent win for a scratch England against a decent enough Arg at home. Some things of note: how did GF go from a 75%er to near perfect (at least for one game) – the Lions loss is our gain as he was hugely instrumental in our win on Sat, Hartley was mostly ok at hooker basics (altho our LO was poor in the 1st half) but he embarrassed himself a few times too many times IMO, Brown a bit too meh, & Wilson looked good. As for Denny boy, I’ve just done the math and a wonder try doesn’t trump the 2 tries he was involved in conceding – if we want to play the all-out attack style we should probably reconsider Wade. DS needs to hugely improve his defence to be in with a shout of a regular place – maybe give him another season or so at club level, we’re not short of wingers who do the full job better than he.

This tour was always about looking at guys who could be better than the Lions. When we talk about Wade, we often say "Imagine Savea running at him" blah blah to question his defence. If we play him, other countries will be saying "Imagine Solomona running at him" after he bumped aside his opposition winger before running in 40m untouched - Savea-esque.

Yes, he does need some work, but keeping him around the International set-up can get him from raw talent to superstar.

Yes, you could argue that Wade or Roko could do with the international exposure and the coaching and guidance of Eddie Jones and co, and you could argue that that would make them better players. But Eddie is paid the big bucks to identify and develop talent, and if he decides he's seen enough from Solomona to know that he's worth investing in, he'll get every chance - despite the defensive errors.

Gooseberry wrote:

beshocked wrote:


cascough a 10-12-13 of Farrell-T'eo and Davies is lacking a bit of creativity though. Too much boshing IMO.

Any more lacking than Farrel Barrit Tuilagi?

According to Gatlands latest outburst Teo was slected because of his offloading game and footwork, not to be a bash merchant.

We will see.

Beshocked, really confused as to what Davies has to do with England. I was talking specifically about the 10-12 axis and how it pertains to England.

As it happened, we didn't get a proper look at it due to an injury reshuffle, which is a shame, especially given Ford went so well.

Gooseberry, I have to say I've actually been impressed with Te'o's step and offloading. I can't see Lozowski challenging the 12 shirt, likewise if Slade breaks into the team I doubt it will be at 13. Will be interesting to see how England Line up in the AIs.