England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Haskell was absolutely immense in the Aussie tour in the same way, though more visible and destructive physically.

I genuinely hope we see that level again from him because that flank combo was seriously impressive!

I've joked before that Eddie's instructions before that tour were: "Eh, Hask, if it moves, hit it, and if it doesn't move, hit it til it moves. And Chris, just do everything else."

The Haskell / Robshaw combination worked because it allowed Hask to focus on doing one or two things well while Robshaw followed up with whatever else was needed.

To Gooseberry's point, I would actually argue that Robshaw is - from a coach's perspective - anything but limited. He is able to play to a number of different game plans and consistently makes good decisions in play. What we clock in real time is the lack of big carries, dominant tackles and turnovers. What the coaches see on video analysis is a player who prioritises quick ball over an extra yard, who makes a remarkable number of cover tackles when the primary tackler has missed or hasn't completed, and who hits a lot of rucks efficiently and slows the opposition ball down without giving away penalties. The last time I looked at his stats vs Steffon Armitage's, they both had a close to 1:1 ratio of turnovers won to penalties conceded - but Steffon was winning 5 times the number of turnovers and conceding 5 times the number of penalties. A high proportion of Robshaw's turnovers also come when the team really needs it, which says to me that he is playing the percentage game very well.

It's very noticeable that of the coaches he's ever worked with - Deano, Johnno, O'Shea, Lancaster and now Eddie, only one of them has ever dropped him, and that was when Johnno preferred to rely on his 2003 mates. We all know how that turned out.

As for Hask, my understanding was that he's still having to manage his toe injury, and my feeling is that he's less effective now than he was last summer. I could be wrong, but I think Eddie will be looking to prioritise finding new combinations in the autumn.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see a little interview with Brian O'Driscoll, (if he's being truthful)and he says the hardest player he has ever played with or against was ....Richard Hill. Interesting...amazing player yet not someone I viewed as a "traditional hard man". Brian says he was just a player that made teams tick and was a tough as old boots!

He also says the hardest tackle he ever had was from Johnny.

Hill made England tick; look at 2007, England looked okay, Hill got injured and suddenly they were struggling. They scrape through into the knock outs and Hill comes back. Suddenly everything clicks again, made the final and possibly could have won it. He made such a difference and he only had one fully working leg for the last few years of his career.

Could play at true World Class level across the back row and his mere presence energised a team. One of the true world greats.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see a little interview with Brian O'Driscoll, (if he's being truthful)and he says the hardest player he has ever played with or against was ....Richard Hill. Interesting...amazing player yet not someone I viewed as a "traditional hard man". Brian says he was just a player that made teams tick and was a tough as old boots!

He also says the hardest tackle he ever had was from Johnny.

Hill made England tick; look at 2007, England looked okay, Hill got injured and suddenly they were struggling. They scrape through into the knock outs and Hill comes back. Suddenly everything clicks again, made the final and possibly could have won it. He made such a difference and he only had one fully working leg for the last few years of his career.

Could play at true World Class level across the back row and his mere presence energised a team. One of the true world greats.

2003, not 2007 - oh how different things could have been if they'd had him in 2007. Richard Hill could have made enough of a difference to win the 2007 RWC Final.

But yeah, in 2003 he was magnificent, but we only knew what he was doing by his absence. The epitome of a player's player.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Haskell was absolutely immense in the Aussie tour in the same way, though more visible and destructive physically.

I genuinely hope we see that level again from him because that flank combo was seriously impressive!

I've joked before that Eddie's instructions before that tour were: "Eh, Hask, if it moves, hit it, and if it doesn't move, hit it til it moves. And Chris, just do everything else."

The Haskell / Robshaw combination worked because it allowed Hask to focus on doing one or two things well while Robshaw followed up with whatever else was needed.

To Gooseberry's point, I would actually argue that Robshaw is - from a coach's perspective - anything but limited. He is able to play to a number of different game plans and consistently makes good decisions in play. What we clock in real time is the lack of big carries, dominant tackles and turnovers. What the coaches see on video analysis is a player who prioritises quick ball over an extra yard, who makes a remarkable number of cover tackles when the primary tackler has missed or hasn't completed, and who hits a lot of rucks efficiently and slows the opposition ball down without giving away penalties. The last time I looked at his stats vs Steffon Armitage's, they both had a close to 1:1 ratio of turnovers won to penalties conceded - but Steffon was winning 5 times the number of turnovers and conceding 5 times the number of penalties. A high proportion of Robshaw's turnovers also come when the team really needs it, which says to me that he is playing the percentage game very well.

It's very noticeable that of the coaches he's ever worked with - Deano, Johnno, O'Shea, Lancaster and now Eddie, only one of them has ever dropped him, and that was when Johnno preferred to rely on his 2003 mates. We all know how that turned out.

As for Hask, my understanding was that he's still having to manage his toe injury, and my feeling is that he's less effective now than he was last summer. I could be wrong, but I think Eddie will be looking to prioritise finding new combinations in the autumn.

I think your right. It will be interesting to see how he starts the season...and how all his competition for that 7 spot starts the season.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Haskell was absolutely immense in the Aussie tour in the same way, though more visible and destructive physically.

I genuinely hope we see that level again from him because that flank combo was seriously impressive!

I've joked before that Eddie's instructions before that tour were: "Eh, Hask, if it moves, hit it, and if it doesn't move, hit it til it moves. And Chris, just do everything else."

The Haskell / Robshaw combination worked because it allowed Hask to focus on doing one or two things well while Robshaw followed up with whatever else was needed.

To Gooseberry's point, I would actually argue that Robshaw is - from a coach's perspective - anything but limited. He is able to play to a number of different game plans and consistently makes good decisions in play. What we clock in real time is the lack of big carries, dominant tackles and turnovers. What the coaches see on video analysis is a player who prioritises quick ball over an extra yard, who makes a remarkable number of cover tackles when the primary tackler has missed or hasn't completed, and who hits a lot of rucks efficiently and slows the opposition ball down without giving away penalties. The last time I looked at his stats vs Steffon Armitage's, they both had a close to 1:1 ratio of turnovers won to penalties conceded - but Steffon was winning 5 times the number of turnovers and conceding 5 times the number of penalties. A high proportion of Robshaw's turnovers also come when the team really needs it, which says to me that he is playing the percentage game very well.

It's very noticeable that of the coaches he's ever worked with - Deano, Johnno, O'Shea, Lancaster and now Eddie, only one of them has ever dropped him, and that was when Johnno preferred to rely on his 2003 mates. We all know how that turned out.

As for Hask, my understanding was that he's still having to manage his toe injury, and my feeling is that he's less effective now than he was last summer. I could be wrong, but I think Eddie will be looking to prioritise finding new combinations in the autumn.

What I meant by limited is that he doesnt have stand out skills or physical attributes in any areas other than what you alludde to ... the ability to be in the action doing what needs to be done. Work rate and intelligence make up for not being the biggest, fastest, dirtiest, athletic or most skilled backrow out there. Hes never going to be a big ball carrier, smash opponents in the way Haskell can, or make a massive difference in the set pieces but he still makes a massive contribution.

Penalty count on Steffon is interesting, I'd wager a fair number of those are due to him coming off his feet too easily due to being built like a weeble. Also just blindly going after everything. I dont remember Robshaw ever getting carded except donkeys years ago against Tigers, but not for England ( fact check?) which given his work rate does again suggest hes somewhere between conservative and sensible (controlled/disciplined) I cant think hes ever got involved in handbags either. Maybe you could argue that having an enforcer and players who stand up for the team is important, but with the likes of Brown, Care, Hartley, Marler and Lawes around they have plenty of "spike" without Robshaw acting like a coked up single mum in kebab shop at 3am.

To be fair on Johnnos selections Robshaw was part of two of the most flaccid defeats England have witnessed in the modern era, pretty much anyone who played that Spring deserved to be shot at dawn. For the world cup it was Croft, Wood, Haskell and Moody who went as the flankers...so only one of the world cup mates and he was captain so couldnt easily be left out (although as it turned out should have been and would have been if he hadnt lied to the doctors which for me has tainted his legacy as an England great)

Anyway that aside I think we agree that Robshaw isnt a flashy player who instantly stands out or makes the highlight reels, but he is brutally effective in what England ask of him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

He also says the hardest tackle he ever had was from Johnny.

So many responses to this I cant post

Gooseberry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote: He also says the hardest tackle he ever had was from Johnny.

So many responses to this I cant post

In O'Driscolls book he tells about saying that in an interview with Wilkinson there and everyone was smirking until Jonny said you cant say that!

I know...I did have it as the hardest tackle he'd ever received...thought that was worse

Just read this EJ quote from Kiwi rugby heaven;

"We will look at those Tests as a continuation of the June series," Jones says. "A number of the Lions guys we probably won't play. We'll give them reconditioning periods to get right for the World Cup. It's about increasing depth again."

Great to hear given the likes of 'insert name here' are probably well and truly knackered!

Surely that list includeds the li,e of Courtney Lawes (who looks wrecked) and players like Itoje and George who have played so much rugby with Saracens, England and lions.
AND possibly the likes of Dan Cole...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely that list includeds the li,e of Courtney Lawes (who looks wrecked) and players like Itoje and George who have played so much rugby with Saracens, England and lions.
AND possibly the likes of Dan Cole...

Hard to say with Courtney, at the best of times he looks wrecked a bit like Launchbury.

True but Lawes himself has even said his body has been absolutely battered over the years and he's only now back to his best because he's injury free...and able to play games regular. He's played a lot of physical games this season and we need to make sure he's managed properly so now is the time to reign him in a bit.

I'm glad Eddie has mentioned that...and I hope he sticks with it.

With that in mind...which players do you think will NOT be in the AI's....?

Add Farrell & Mako V to that list GF.
I don't want to see any of them playing before October. Real player welfare not corporate lip service.

Ah yes I forgot about them...they've also played a host of games!

Of the Lions guys; Marler, Kruis, Sinckler, Daly, Nowell, Te'o and Watson are probably the only ones who I think should play in the Autumn.

When's Billy V due back?

Well I don't have the stats but I imagine the likes of Sinkler, Daly, T'eo, Watson etc wont have played nearly as many as some of the Sarries lads. Even Kruis missed all the 6n etc....

Its another interesting selection coming up that's for sure...

Marler, Hartley, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Underhill/ Haskell/ ?, B Vunipola, B Youngs, Ford, Daly, T'eo, Joseph, Watson, Brown

Genge, George, Williams, Ewels, Hughes, Care, Slade, Nowell

Not a bad team for the Autumn, leaving out some big names. Couldn't make up my mind on the 7 shirt. Would love Haskell from last year but also someone to say this is my shirt. If thats Underhill or Haskell or anyone else I wouldnt mind.

On review though, not sure about the line-out with that line-up. Kruis needs his 2016 form back too, but he cant do it alone.

Giving Jamie George a rest is important, it also allows more opportunities for other hooker bench options to be tried in the AIs.


Should basically be the Argentina tour team with about 5 players who missed out from Lions tour - something like -

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Ewels
6.Robshaw
7.Underhill
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.Nowell
12.Teo
13.Joseph
14.Daly
15.Brown

16.Genge
17.LCD/Taylor
18.Hill
19.Isiekwe
20.Hughes
21.Care
22.Lozowski/Slade
23.Solomona

Guys being rested are pretty clear from this.

I see people are listing Underhill as a "potential" starter for the AI's. He's showed me nothing yet to suggest that, and as I said before despite not being a full strength tour etc......Curry put more of a marker down in the Summer.

kingelderfield wrote:Just read this EJ quote from Kiwi rugby heaven;

"We will look at those Tests as a continuation of the June series," Jones says. "A number of the Lions guys we probably won't play. We'll give them reconditioning periods to get right for the World Cup. It's about increasing depth again."

Great to hear given the likes of 'insert name here' are probably well and truly knackered!

I missed it at the time but theres an ionterview back in May where he said he was going to do this. Its always been the plan to rest some of the key Lions guys.

Exciting times for some of those who stuck their hands up in Argentina. And ties them further to Ford as first choice 10.

It is interesting as the Lions players have an enforced rest period anyway at the start of the season, and what implications does it have for the clubs if EPS contracted players arent picked for AIs  but told to sit home and eat crisps?

Post Lions can always be difficult with fatigue injuries often causing extended periods out of the game. Hopefully we'll manage this situation and players will be protected and prepared sufficiently to enable them optimum opportunity. However not all clubs will adhere to this philosophy and the usual short term abuses will occur.
On the plus side while players are away on a deferred preseason, others will have the opportunity to stake a claim. Here's hoping for an interesting start to the season.

Thats why I listed ? in my 7 shirt team. Underhill, Haskell, both Currys, Clifford, T Wood, Wilson.

Not to mention if the following get a good run of games - Fraser, Jones.

I dont mind who it is - as long as its back-row players playing in the back-row. Itoje or Lawes are second rows only.

Strength in depth is great - but only if you know who first choice is.

Gooseberry wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Just read this EJ quote from Kiwi rugby heaven;

"We will look at those Tests as a continuation of the June series," Jones says. "A number of the Lions guys we probably won't play. We'll give them reconditioning periods to get right for the World Cup. It's about increasing depth again."

Great to hear given the likes of 'insert name here' are probably well and truly knackered!

I missed it at the time but theres an ionterview back in May where he said he was going to do this. Its always been the plan to rest some of the key Lions guys.

Exciting times for some of those who stuck their hands up in Argentina. And ties them further to Ford as first choice 10.

It is interesting as the Lions players have an enforced rest period anyway at the start of the season, and what implications does it have for the clubs if EPS contracted players arent picked for AIs  but told to sit home and eat crisps?

Hopefully the club/country implications have been discussed with the relevant parties. So there shouldn't be any negatives and the players and clubs/country can reap the benefits of fit rested players. I do however take your point and appreciate club X may not be happy to see their favourite child sitting out when points/jobs are at stake.

Michael,

Im certainly not dismissing Underhill, I genuinely hope he is the real deal but I just haven't seen the results yet to warrant the hype, and ive seen a number of potential teams listed with him at 7.

The start of this season is going to be fascinating to see how everyone's form is!

Geordiefalcon

I only put down Underhill because I would give Haskell the AIs off. Underhill is just one of a few potential 7s.

7 is definitely wide open.

Yeah 7 is wide open. Feels like the never-ending problem in England.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

I only put down Underhill because I would give Haskell the AIs off. Underhill is just one of a few potential 7s.

7 is definitely wide open.

And Also, because if he doesn't get over this toe injury, that sources suggest, seems to be hanging around, we will need to put his replacement in sooner rather than later....

Plenty of candidates for Jones to watch at the start of the season....

Curry x 2
Underhill
Haskell
Will Evans (Tigers)
Mark Wilson (more of a 6 though)
Sam Jones
Will Fraser (if he is ever fit!)
Matt Kvesic should be revitalised at Exeter.

Going to be great to watch....

Then the likes of young Mercer at Bath, and even Thacker at Tigers will be watched with interest.

Whilst he'd be a controversial pick and would start down the pecking order, if Calum Clark can prove he's an improved player, he might challenge for that 7 shirt.

Getting bans doesn't seem to be an issue for Jones, so if he can hit the ground running..... he could put himself in the mix.

Will be interesting to see who gets the nod at 7 for Saracens - Fraser or Clark - Fraser sadly gets injured frequently.


By selecting the likes of Teo and Francis - Jones has shown that you don't need to be a youngster to be selected either.

Wow

Ha. You come across as surprised bam.

Clark has that aggressive attitude that Jones likes, no question of that.

If Saracens can get him playing at the top of his game then he'll be a very abrasive confrontational flanker that Jones likes, but that's a big if. I still think he was a very shrewd signing by Saracens and will be a good player for them.

He's been a very good player for years. In and around the squad without getting a chance due to the need to try and build experience and a back row unit. I feel.he's fallen into the wade category now; good enough but probably needed a chance before now as younger players have come through and a re pushing their case.

I agree 7.5 I think he is in that category aswell...however...some thought Haskell was in that boat as well, yet Eddie used him in a certain way and revitalised him.

Much will depend on how Saracens can get him playing, but IF they do get him playing to his absolute best...its not an impossibility that he could be in the mix.

In certain cases (as Beshocked has suggested above) Eddie isn't swayed by age, discipline, attitude etc...if a player is able to do the job to the required standards that he needs him to do for the team...he plays.

I'm still firmly of the opinion haskell had a little purple patch and has now returned to the meh player of his younger days. I don't doubt jones would have no bones about picking him if he felt he was the best choice. I just think he's too far down the list now. It'll take a fair few injuries before he can make a claim.

And you would probably be right on both counts there....

kingelderfield wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Just read this EJ quote from Kiwi rugby heaven;

"We will look at those Tests as a continuation of the June series," Jones says. "A number of the Lions guys we probably won't play. We'll give them reconditioning periods to get right for the World Cup. It's about increasing depth again."

Great to hear given the likes of 'insert name here' are probably well and truly knackered!

I missed it at the time but theres an ionterview back in May where he said he was going to do this. Its always been the plan to rest some of the key Lions guys.

Exciting times for some of those who stuck their hands up in Argentina. And ties them further to Ford as first choice 10.

It is interesting as the Lions players have an enforced rest period anyway at the start of the season, and what implications does it have for the clubs if EPS contracted players arent picked for AIs  but told to sit home and eat crisps?

Hopefully the club/country implications have been discussed with the relevant parties. So there shouldn't be any negatives and the players and clubs/country can reap the benefits of fit rested players. I do however take your point and appreciate club X may not be happy to see their favourite child sitting out when points/jobs are at stake.

Contractualy its pretty clear that the RFU has primacy on teh player management on welfare, so that aspect isnt an issue.

I more coming it at from the perepctive of how much it could mess with clubs (well really just Saracens) who may be missing a significant number of players ...not just those Lions but the onbes called up by England to plug the gaps.  Theres a fair chance Lowozok Lozok that other 10/12 utility player they have being in the AI squads, and no doubt others too.

OK the AI weekends dont coincide with the biggest matches of the season but it will still put further strain on their overall resources and make later season planning more difficult.
Such is the price of success I guess.

I know it is an obvious comment, but with so many potential (unproven) options at openside, club form is going to count for a lot. The players who get game time, stay fit and excel will get the chance in my opinion. You can get an idea of this by looking at their individual situations. Fans of the various clubs may want to correct me, but this is my reading of the situation.

Sam Underhill, he is probably in poll position due to the fact that he is physically stronger and more developed than the Currys and he is already in the squad. His main competition at openside is Francois Louw and Guy Mercer (assuming Bath don't bring anybody else in). He could potentially make hay during the early part of the season because Louw may be away with the Springboks during the rugby Championship. Guy Mercer is a very good club man, but you'd assume that if Baggins can't supersede him for Bath, he has no chance of doing it with England. I guess there is always the potential for Wonderhill and Louw to play left and right, but with Garvey being name club captain you would assume that he will tie up the blindside spot.

Currys: This is going to be a bit up in the air, I expect Sale to bring in a few more players before the season starts. Their major drawback (or indeed strength!) is that they will be competing against each-other. If Sale don't bring anybody else in you'd assume that they are going to get a fair amount of game time. Jono Ross will probably tie up the blindside position and Nield will cameo here when not at hooker. Dave Seymour will probably be first choice at open-side, but you have to think that there will be plenty of opportunities to go round. The question is will they be able to stand out behind what will likely to be a retreating pack? What about second season syndrome?

Will Evans: How has he recovered from his injury? I'm not conversant with the Tiger's situation at the moment, but looking at the squad there seems to be plenty of competition. Will he get the game time required to make a push for the squad? Seems like he has too much ground to make up to be a genuine contender this November.

Jack Clifford is worth a mention because he is consistently in and around the squad when fit, although I believe Eddie sees him more as a no.8? Is Teimana Harrison completely finished? Callum Clarke may be worth watching as others have said; but Eddie has not shown any interest in him so far and is down the pecking order. You would say that the same about Kvesic as Clarke, Eddie doesn't seem fussed. If Will Fraser can go even half a season without getting injured he may come into the conversation.


All of this assumes Haskell will be rested, because he will be first choice if he is available.

Harrison I don't think is finished. Remains to be seen where he will be used at Saints this season though.

Focusing on Haskell, I wonder if the Lions was his last hurrah. I mean he is 32 and plays in such a way that he is constantly at risk of being injured (not to mention the injuries he is actually carrying). He will be 34 at the next World Cup, he has helped England to a Grand-slam, a whitewash over Australia and played a part in a (semi) successful Lions tour, he has achieved a lot. Will the fire still be there for him? Will he still have the will to raise himself above the injuries?

When Saracens launched their new kit Calum Clark was holding a 6 shirt. I suspect he will appear across at the back row at points for Saracens but it will be interesting to see where they use him most regularly.

Personally I feel his best position is 6, he's lacking a bit of pace and isn't top class over the ball. Although he could get pretty close to the role Haskell plays at 7.

cascough wrote:When Saracens launched their new kit Calum Clark was holding a 6 shirt. I suspect he will appear across at the back row at points for Saracens but it will be interesting to see where they use him most regularly.

Personally I feel his best position is 6, he's lacking a bit of pace and isn't top class over the ball. Although he could get pretty close to the role Haskell plays at 7.

Really? I'd say that's his best attribute. He gets a load of turnovers. Though not just from 'jackaling'.

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:When Saracens launched their new kit Calum Clark was holding a 6 shirt. I suspect he will appear across at the back row at points for Saracens but it will be interesting to see where they use him most regularly.

Personally I feel his best position is 6, he's lacking a bit of pace and isn't top class over the ball. Although he could get pretty close to the role Haskell plays at 7.

Really? I'd say that's his best attribute. He gets a load of turnovers. Though not just from 'jackaling'.

I won't have watched him as much as you, but his jackaling doesn't stick out in my mind. He's always struck me as an abrasive presence at rucks, rather than a skilled breakdown operator.

I know they're just clichés, but he hits a ruck hard and fast like a Haskell, rather than waiting for an opportune moment to strike on the ball like a smith or a pocock. Do you know what I mean?

cascough wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

cascough wrote:When Saracens launched their new kit Calum Clark was holding a 6 shirt. I suspect he will appear across at the back row at points for Saracens but it will be interesting to see where they use him most regularly.

Personally I feel his best position is 6, he's lacking a bit of pace and isn't top class over the ball. Although he could get pretty close to the role Haskell plays at 7.

Really? I'd say that's his best attribute. He gets a load of turnovers. Though not just from 'jackaling'.

I won't have watched him as much as you, but his jackaling doesn't stick out in my mind. He's always struck me as an abrasive presence at rucks, rather than a skilled breakdown operator.

I know they're just clichés, but he hits a ruck hard and fast like a Haskell, rather than waiting for an opportune moment to strike on the ball like a smith or a pocock. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah completely and I think you're right, although he's more like a cross in my opinion. Back rows are balance but he's a well rounded player and contributes so much when playing well.

Cumbrian wrote:I know it is an obvious comment, but with so many potential (unproven) options at openside, club form is going to count for a lot.  The players who get game time, stay fit and excel will get the chance in my opinion.  You can get an idea of this by looking at their individual situations.  Fans of the various clubs may want to correct me, but this is my reading of the situation.

Sam Underhill, he is probably in poll position due to the fact that he is physically stronger and more developed than the Currys and he is already in the squad.  His main competition at openside is Francois Louw and Guy Mercer (assuming Bath don't bring anybody else in).  He could potentially make hay during the early part of the season because Louw may be away with the Springboks during the rugby Championship.  Guy Mercer is a very good club man, but you'd assume that if Baggins can't supersede him for Bath, he has no chance of doing it with England.  I guess there is always the potential for Wonderhill and Louw to play left and right, but with Garvey being name club captain you would assume that he will tie up the blindside spot.

Currys:  This is going to be a bit up in the air, I expect Sale to bring in a few more players before the season starts.  Their major drawback (or indeed strength!) is that they will be competing against each-other.  If Sale don't bring anybody else in you'd assume that they are going to get a fair amount of game time.  Jono Ross will probably tie up the blindside position and Nield will cameo here when not at hooker.  Dave Seymour will probably be first choice at open-side, but you have to think that there will be plenty of opportunities to go round.  The question is will they be able to stand out behind what will likely to be a retreating pack? What about second season syndrome?

Will Evans:  How has he recovered from his injury? I'm not conversant with the Tiger's situation at the moment, but looking at the squad there seems to be plenty of competition.  Will he get the game time required to make a push for the squad?  Seems like he has too much ground to make up to be a genuine contender this November.

Jack Clifford is worth a mention because he is consistently in and around the squad when fit, although I believe Eddie sees him more as a no.8?  Is Teimana Harrison completely finished? Callum Clarke may be worth watching as others have said; but Eddie has not shown any interest in him so far and is down the pecking order.  You would say that the same about Kvesic as Clarke, Eddie doesn't seem fussed.  If Will Fraser can go even half a season without getting injured he may come into the conversation.


All of this assumes Haskell will be rested, because he will be first choice if he is available.  

Luke Wallace has also been on the fringe when in form and injury free - possibly more so than Will Fraser......

From a Quins perspective, I think Wallace is seen as a good club player who hasn't quite done enough to put his hand up as an international. He could get lucky if there's another bad run of injuries, but the line in front of him is much longer than it was last year.

Eddie has said he sees Clifford as an 8 long term and a 7 short term, but I suspect the truth is that he is probably preferred as a bench option who genuinely offers something different. The big question is whether having his shoulder fixed will allow him to recapture the form of a year ago.

The biggest question for me is whether James Chisholm can get a look in at 6 or 8. His main problems are Clifford and Robshaw, who are ahead of him in the pecking order. But he's young and hugely physical. I think he's probably closer to getting a shot than Wallace.

That is true - I had forgotten about Chisholm.
Clifford just needs gametime without injury - I am sure that he will be given time to get back to where he was.
Wallace is the same really - seemed to be on and off with injuries. Agree that he has a lot of competition infront of him though. Saxons is probably as far as he will get on international recognition.

I like the fact that EJ will not rush the Lions guys back in. So some of those guys from the Argentina tour may well get another crack of the whip.

Is there anyone outside the last tour or Lions tour that EJ may want to look at in Nov?

propdavid_london wrote:That is true - I had forgotten about Chisholm.  
Clifford just needs gametime without injury - I am sure that he will be given time to get back to where he was.
Wallace is the same really - seemed to be on and off with injuries.  Agree that he has a lot of competition infront of him though.  Saxons is probably as far as he will get on international recognition.

I like the fact that EJ will not rush the Lions guys back in.  So some of those guys from the Argentina tour may well get another crack of the whip.

Is there anyone outside the last tour or Lions tour that EJ may want to look at in Nov?

Billy Vunipola.

Cheers - I was thinking anyone that wasn't 'established'.
So, not Ben Youngs either.

If a bout of second row injuries struck Lawesbury and Kruitoje badly enough to need a 6th choice lock below Ewels then it would be interesting to see if Isiekwe got the nod against stronger opposition.

If Jones decided he wanted someone more experienced and physically developed then there's a long list of possibilities. Will Spencer had a very fine season with Worcester last term. Attwood hasn't fulfilled his promise but hasn't let England down either, particularly with his very solid set-piece work.

Similarly at scrum half. Were Youngs and/or Care to get crocked then would Robson come back into contention? Jack Maunder and Ben Spencer are options which have also been around the squads, ahead of Robson at times.

Beyond hypothetical injury crisis it seems that Jones has had a pretty good look at the current options he rates. He's certainly not been shy about chopping and changing training squads to get a look at a lot of fringe players.