England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

by **LondonTiger** Mon 19 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by Cumbrian Wed 26 Jul 2017, 7:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:If a bout of second row injuries struck Lawesbury and Kruitoje badly enough to need a 6th choice lock below Ewels then it would be interesting to see if Isiekwe got the nod against stronger opposition.

If Jones decided he wanted someone more experienced and physically developed then there's a long list of possibilities. Will Spencer had a very fine season with Worcester last term. Attwood hasn't fulfilled his promise but hasn't let England down either, particularly with his very solid set-piece work.

Similarly at scrum half. Were Youngs and/or Care to get crocked then would Robson come back into contention? Jack Maunder and Ben Spencer are options which have also been around the squads, ahead of Robson at times.

Beyond hypothetical injury crisis it seems that Jones has had a pretty good look at the current options he rates. He's certainly not been shy about chopping and changing training squads to get a look at a lot of fringe players.

England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18 - Page 8 Oi+no

by Poorfour Wed 26 Jul 2017, 9:10 pm

Be grateful you were spared Makler, Haskshaw, Coungs, Fordell and Sinckole.

Especially Sinckole.

by Geordie Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:09 am

Surely if we were down to 6th spot in the second rows Dom Barrow would be examined closely. My only ? would be about his work rate? Is it high enough for what Jones expects. He's certainly been playing very well. And injury free helps!

As to others...im not sure theres many who will come in now who

1) Weren't Lions
2 Wasn't on the Argentina tour
3) Not already identified fringe players (Tommy Taylor, Clifford etc etc)

by No 7&1/2 Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:18 am

Marchant, tompkins possibly.

by Geordie Thu 27 Jul 2017, 8:27 am

Marchant has already been identified...wasn't he in the extended squad?

Tompkins...possibly, but he's competing with Joseph and Marchant, and possibly T'eo if Jones elects for a Manu style 13...

by propdavid_london Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:24 pm

Will EJ ever consider pulling in Manu? Too early for Nov tests, but if Manu starts the season well and is injury free.....could make the 6N training squads.

Personally I think not...there is a lot of stuff for Manu to get sorted. England currently have a lot of options in the midfield and just need to decide on the long term combinations. Cant really see EJ moving away from the Ford-Farrell combination anyway. Its more about finding a decent plan-B.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 27 Jul 2017, 12:32 pm

If he can start tackling properly this season now his shoulder injury has healed, Prince Harry might be in with a shout, he is a better playmaker than Farrell, can truck it up when required giving a balance which stops the backrow drifting too early. Out of hand he CAN have a better boot, it's certainly longer but he mixes up the subtle stuff as well.

Not the finished article, needs to stop trying to be superman and play in the rest of the backs but he does have more skills than any other 12 around at the moment.

Needs a good start to the season, it will be interesting to see how he plays with Francis, a very different player from Myler.

by lostinwales Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:07 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Will EJ ever consider pulling in Manu? Too early for Nov tests, but if Manu starts the season well and is injury free.....could make the 6N training squads.

Personally I think not...there is a lot of stuff for Manu to get sorted. England currently have a lot of options in the midfield and just need to decide on the long term combinations. Cant really see EJ moving away from the Ford-Farrell combination anyway. Its more about finding a decent plan-B.

Like the Haskell question it all depends. At his best Manu was really something. If he gets back to that level and is able to show the acceleration of old there is no reason why he can't get back in the squad because he does offer something different, and the kind of impact he offers is very much what EJ wants to have on the bench.

The problem is the if..

by king_carlos Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:29 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
king_carlos wrote:If a bout of second row injuries struck Lawesbury and Kruitoje badly enough to need a 6th choice lock below Ewels then it would be interesting to see if Isiekwe got the nod against stronger opposition.

If Jones decided he wanted someone more experienced and physically developed then there's a long list of possibilities. Will Spencer had a very fine season with Worcester last term. Attwood hasn't fulfilled his promise but hasn't let England down either, particularly with his very solid set-piece work.

Similarly at scrum half. Were Youngs and/or Care to get crocked then would Robson come back into contention? Jack Maunder and Ben Spencer are options which have also been around the squads, ahead of Robson at times.

Beyond hypothetical injury crisis it seems that Jones has had a pretty good look at the current options he rates. He's certainly not been shy about chopping and changing training squads to get a look at a lot of fringe players.

Couldn't resist Very Happy

by king_carlos Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely if we were down to 6th spot in the second rows Dom Barrow would be examined closely. My only ? would be about his work rate? Is it high enough for what Jones expects. He's certainly been playing very well. And injury free helps!

Barrow would be my 6th choice, albeit a biased one. He is yet to be around any EJ squads though hence suggesting Spencer who I thought was excellent last season.

Work rate hasn't been an issue with Barrow at Tigers, especially last season. His tackle and carry count are always high. He's a big guy who throws all his weight behind those tackles as well which is something Gustard should like. The area Barrow adds most to Tigers is his strong carrying of 9 and his heavy hitting tackles against forward runners in the same channel.

His clearing of rucks is very good as well. An old school, uncompromising number 4 who throws his significant weight around well.

He currently offers as little if not less than Launchbury in the line-out though. That's the one big weakness in his game.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:57 pm

Launchbury who took the most lineouts in the 6 nations. I don't understand the often repeated line that he's poor. What is meant by it; doesn't steal many?

by Scottrf Thu 27 Jul 2017, 1:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Launchbury who took the most lineouts in the 6 nations. I don't understand the often repeated line that he's poor. What is meant by it; doesn't steal many?

He doesn't call them.

by BamBam Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:02 pm

Kruis, Itoje and Lawes can all claim to be proven (obviously not all to the same degree) callers at international level, barring an injury disaster we're ok for lineout callers now

by No 7&1/2 Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:08 pm

Not that big a deal then.

by propdavid_london Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:08 pm

lostinwales wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Will EJ ever consider pulling in Manu? Too early for Nov tests, but if Manu starts the season well and is injury free.....could make the 6N training squads.

Personally I think not...there is a lot of stuff for Manu to get sorted. England currently have a lot of options in the midfield and just need to decide on the long term combinations. Cant really see EJ moving away from the Ford-Farrell combination anyway. Its more about finding a decent plan-B.

Like the Haskell question it all depends. At his best Manu was really something. If he gets back to that level and is able to show the acceleration of old there is no reason why he can't get back in the squad because he does offer something different, and the kind of impact he offers is very much what EJ wants to have on the bench.

The problem is the if..

I just want to see an impact bench of.....Sinkler, George, Manu T, Lawes, Solomona...that would put the chills up most sides.

by Geordie Thu 27 Jul 2017, 2:20 pm

Some of them may be starters in the AI propdavid...

by formerly known as Sam Thu 27 Jul 2017, 3:05 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Will EJ ever consider pulling in Manu? Too early for Nov tests, but if Manu starts the season well and is injury free.....could make the 6N training squads.

Personally I think not...there is a lot of stuff for Manu to get sorted. England currently have a lot of options in the midfield and just need to decide on the long term combinations. Cant really see EJ moving away from the Ford-Farrell combination anyway. Its more about finding a decent plan-B.

Last time Manu was fit for five minutes EJ had him in the squad only replacing him later when the inevitable injury occurred. I think EJ fancies a power runner in the squad, he was very keen to get Te'o involved. If Manu is back fit and firing this season I wouldn't be surprised to see him included in the 6N squad. I'd be more surprised if he was fit for that long. The pictures of him in pre season show him looking lean so he should be gym fit if nothing else.

by propdavid_london Thu 27 Jul 2017, 3:39 pm

Sinks, George and Lawes are most likely due for a rest. And there are some pretty able substitutes.

I am not sure that Solomona will be trusted as a starter yet - but with both Daly and Watson also likely to be rested there could be a chance.

I said Manu in jest....there is no chance that he will be involved - lad just needs to get his head down.

by lostinwales Thu 27 Jul 2017, 7:31 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Sinks, George and Lawes are most likely due for a rest. And there are some pretty able substitutes.

I am not sure that Solomona will be trusted as a starter yet - but with both Daly and Watson also likely to be rested there could be a chance.

I said Manu in jest....there is no chance that he will be involved - lad just needs to get his head down.

Of course. Nothing he needs more than a run of games without injury.

I just suspect that if he still has 'it' (whatever 'it' is) he will be back in the squad. He's still a young guy

by Geordie Thu 27 Jul 2017, 10:24 pm

I still think Sam James at Sale is worth a look. Big lad, skilled and seems to run some great lines for space, not just a crash merchant..

by king_carlos Thu 27 Jul 2017, 10:25 pm

1.Mako 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.George 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Lawes 20.Hughes 21.Care 22.Te'o 23.Nowell

Taking that as a hypothetical first choice 23 you'd presume that Mako and Farrell are very top of the list that needs a rest. If Jones stays true to resting guys for the AIs to get them right for the RWC then those 2 are surely certains.

Itoje is due a break and Lawes has been carrying niggles for a long time. Both would deserve a breather.

Sinckler and Cole have both had very long seasons but both being rested at the same time isn't going to happen. Sinckler had more minutes for the Lions but Cole more for England. That will be an interesting call.

Jamie George has just played a full Lions test series but again has played fewer minutes for England. He looked knackered at the end of the club season, it would be proactive to see him rested as he should be first choice by 2019. Taylor and LCD are both interesting options to get a chance.

Daly and Watson are coming off a Lions tour with lots of test minutes. Joseph has a lot of rugby in his legs too. Again you can't see Daly and Joseph being rested at the same time. Another interesting one.

The back row have all played a lot of rugby but also had breaks due to injury. You'd presume that EJ will want Billy V back involved. It's reasonable to expect the flankers will shuffle around this season regardless of Robshaw or Haskell being rested. There's a lot of back row options pushing.

Farrell
Mako
Cole or Sinckler
Itoje
Lawes
George
Daly or Joseph
Watson

Those would be my guesses for guys in with a decent chance of getting rested during the AIs.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 28 Jul 2017, 8:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Launchbury who took the most lineouts in the 6 nations. I don't understand the often repeated line that he's poor. What is meant by it; doesn't steal many?

Before the 6Ns I did a review of Launchbury's lineout takes in his international career - and from memory it was something liek 0.8 per game. that is not steals, but takes on England's throw. I am the one who most often pushes that he is a rarely used option in this facet of the game. Not necessarily that he is poor, but hardly ever used.

I was not aware he had taken a lot of ball in the 6Ns, so looking at the stats:

Ireland - 0 (Lawes 4, Itoje 3)
Scotland - 1 (Lawes 4, Itoje 3 and a steal)
Italy - 3 (Lawes 2, Itoje 2 and 2 steals)
Wales - 4 (Lawes 5, Itoje 0)
France - 1 (Lawes 3, Itoje 8, Wood 2)

So with an average of 1.8 significantly higher than that I had found before, but his 9 takes is significantly less than Lawes (18) and Itoje (16 and 3 steals).

by No 7&1/2 Fri 28 Jul 2017, 9:03 am

Not the stat I'd seen which stated he took the most followed by tipuric? I'm going to have to go look for that now damn you LT!

A quick review suggests I've imagined it but gonna keep looking.

Nope can't find it so until I can ill pipe down.

by BamBam Fri 28 Jul 2017, 10:51 am

Most lineout takes:
Justin Tipuric (Wales) - 24 takes, 0 steals
Devin Toner (Ireland) - 20, 2
Courtney Lawes (England) - 18, 0
Maro Itoje (England) - 16, 2
Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) - 13, 2
Sam Warburton (Wales) - 13, 1
Richie Gray (Scotland) - 13, 1

Read more at http://www.sixnationsrugby.com/en/news/france/31587.php#5B7ttajX2bcARZ7D.99

by No 7&1/2 Tue 01 Aug 2017, 1:26 pm

The only stats I can find now as well. Must have made it up.

by BamBam Tue 01 Aug 2017, 3:25 pm

I wouldn't worry, plenty of other forum members do the same with their musings

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 01 Aug 2017, 6:26 pm

Don't know what you mean Bam Whistle

by yappysnap Wed 02 Aug 2017, 8:42 am

Just thinking about Eddie Jones tenure so far, and how his squads have pretty much kept all the fans and pundits happy since he started.

Lancaster got a lot of criticism for guys like Wood and Alex Goode being in there, before that Jonno got a lot for Tindal, Andy Goode etc

But Jones seems to do a very good job of keeping the press and fans on side and picking the correct players. Except of course one persons problems with Hartley...

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 9:24 am

Grumbles are kept to a minimum in my eyes due to 2 connected things. Better results and better players available.

Now some of the 2nd is that new guys are around now replacing guys ie Farrell actually playing really well at 12 (something I doubted would happen) over 36 who was a stop gap (could even say Farrell remains a stop gap) or haskell s purple patch over wood. There's also the follow up that players get better as they develop and get more experience. Lancaster swept players out and jones initially kept the same ish core to the team and is slowly developing.

Results come in part from this process but you'd have to point to very similar games under Lancaster and jones eg wales in wc vs first under jones tenure. Not much difference at all bar the result. Had those 2 been reversed poosibly changes some outlooks?

by beshocked Wed 02 Aug 2017, 9:26 am

Depends what you mean by correct.... Costing a GS is forgiven because Jones has only lost 1 game and he's already won a GS which is fair enough.

If this season of the 6 nations was under Lancaster or Johnson's tenure there would be more question marks over performance but Jones has give himself a period of goodwill with a very strong 2016.

Jones should still be looking to ease out certain players. Also I think he needs to start considering other captaincy options.

Pick your best players then the captain.

I know a lot of people seem to disagree with this.

no 7 & 1/2 you keep banging on about Lancaster failing vs Wales, but it's fine margins, he ended up on the wrong side.

England just about managed to get over the line with Jones and not Lancaster.

Lancaster too often ended up losing by fine margins. If one of those losses had been a win then yes, the outlook would be different but didn't happen.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 10:00 am

And I realise some people see it as back and white. Which was my point there at the end.

by beshocked Wed 02 Aug 2017, 11:10 am

no 7 & 1/2 there's clearly a big difference between Jones and Lancaster.

Jones has generally utilised the bench better and he's been winning more big games.

Lancaster did some good things but unfortunately for him he'll probably known more for not winning enough big games and being the 1st coach to lead his country to fail to make the quarter finals of a RWC.

Tough group sure but having by far the richest rugby union, having a huge player pool and having home advantage there are certain expectations that must be met.

Jones snapped up the England job because he knows how good it is.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 11:17 am

We've been through this so we know each others stance.

by lostinwales Wed 02 Aug 2017, 12:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Grumbles are kept to a minimum in my eyes due to 2 connected things. Better results and better players available.

Now some of the 2nd is that new guys are around now replacing guys ie Farrell actually playing really well at 12 (something I doubted would happen) over 36 who was a stop gap (could even say Farrell remains a stop gap) or haskell s purple patch over wood. There's also the follow up that players get better as they develop and get more experience. Lancaster swept players out and jones initially kept the same ish core to the team and is slowly developing.

Results come in part from this process but you'd have to point to very similar games under Lancaster and jones eg wales in wc vs first under jones tenure. Not much difference at all bar the result. Had those 2 been reversed poosibly changes some outlooks?

You could well argue that Lancaster did the dirty work and built the foundations for EJ (and got the blame). EJ is adding a lot to the team that Lancaster did not but its not down to one guy or the other

by beshocked Wed 02 Aug 2017, 1:05 pm

Lancaster should get some credit for the development of players but not all of it.

I'd say the AP clubs should get more credit than they do.

I get the impression from some posters that they believe that Lancaster single handedly developed the current England players and that Jones should be grateful only to him.

by BamBam Wed 02 Aug 2017, 1:16 pm

I'm fairly sure that you won't find a single poster who has ever said those words

by Gooseberry Wed 02 Aug 2017, 1:48 pm

No but beshockeds just exageratting a fair point.

Lancaster got loads of credit for a mediocre team made up of the kids he had nurtured.

Jones has made them into a very good side using some from pre-Lancaster, improving a few of the Lancaster graduates, and a number that were nothing to do with him at all.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 2:01 pm

Lancaster certainly deserves credit and so does jones and a host of others. I was answering the point of has jones avoided criticism etc due to picking the correct players; I think there is more to it than that. I would argue though that there isn't as big a leap from Lancaster team to jones early teams. I still think we'll get much better than we are. I suspect that will continue after 2019 when jones leaves as well. England have the potential at the moment to be a seriously good team for a number of years.

by yappysnap Wed 02 Aug 2017, 2:27 pm

If anything, right up until the RWC where it all went a little crazy, I thought Lancaster may have got too much credit.

The media couldn't stop wetting themselves over things like the new ethos, and discipline, and character etc while avoiding performances.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 2:32 pm

So are jones and his team getting too much now as performances on the whole are very similar?

by beshocked Wed 02 Aug 2017, 2:44 pm

No 7 & 1/2 well when you have a record of 18 wins out of 19 you will get some credit but I should add that it's not an one man show.

Jones has the players and coaches to thanks. Lots of people generally get ignored. It's normally the captain and head coach who get all the glory.... but they shouldn't.... Whistle

The way I see Lancaster in 2012 he probably achieved above expectations in first season getting 2nd place and beating the ABs.

The problem is 2013-2015, IMO there wasn't as much of an improvement as one would expect with new players coming in and being available.

Jones hasn't made many changes but those small changes have been important like bringing Itoje into the 2nd row to partner Kruis, getting improved performances out of Haskell (2016) and Lawes (2017).

Also Ford seems to settled into the partnership with Farrell whose been taking the pressure off him.

Trying out Hughes at no 8. His bench options have worked pretty well in general too.

There also seemed to be something that went wrong with conditioning during the RWC.

There's also the inevitable - if you win more matches, you generally get less heat. By Jones winning GS in his first season he's won himself some breathing space.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 02 Aug 2017, 2:56 pm

Which means you pretty much agree with all my points beshocked. Bar perhaps the question I asked back related to performance and not winning record, particularly or mainly focused on the 6 nations games. I was focusing on the 1st season of Jones as it's easier to compare but one of the main come backs.to that is the aus tour but again do we have to view that through where aus were and are perhaps heading?

by Geordie Wed 02 Aug 2017, 3:22 pm

Don't forget, Eddie is generally very good at deflecting attention away from the players as well and focusing it on him....with some random comment or another....

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 02 Aug 2017, 4:14 pm

Eddie Jones seems to do a lot of talks and speeches. Friends have attended some where they've been asked to keep his comments confidential - one in Tokyo and another in London were like that - but there are others in the public domain. He is a very entertaining speaker, and everyone who has seen him has come away with a good impression. Here's his appearance at the Oxford Union:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-8c8YP82PE

Talk on leadership:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-btm103ZXN4

"England have a great player with great ideas but he can't speak, so we've sent him to acting classes"

by Poorfour Wed 02 Aug 2017, 4:50 pm

Eddie's said publicly how much he feels grateful to Lancaster for giving him a decent squad to work with.

It's also worth noting that most of the players Eddie has capped for the first time came up through the age grade system that Lancaster established before he took on the England job - his legacy in terms of player development casts a long shadow. What he lacked was tactical experience and the knowledge of how to run an RWC campaign. I do think he will be back to international coaching - possibly in the next RWC cycle with a smaller side - and might coach England again, older and wiser.

To my mind, Eddie's done three or four things demonstrably better than Lancaster, two of which I think Lancaster was much less in a position to do:

1) Create real selection pressure. Lancaster inherited a squad that had had no real succession planning for 4 years and then had major injury worries in every series. He had to commit to a core group of players and give them as much experience as possible, because his RWC squad had to have a nucleus of players who could cope in a wide range of situations. Eddie has inherited that experience and has used it cleverly: he set high targets for players and has kept those who rose to them. But the core of experience Eddie inherited has given him the chance to bring through new players. I think he's now capped at least one new player in each position, and several of them (Sinckler, Itoje, Hughes, probably Underhill, Te'o, Daly and I think we can count George) are now regular XXIII members

2) Create a self-managing group One of Eddie's stated aims is to make himself obsolete by developing players to the extent they can think for themselves. To that extent, he's taken away a lot of the discipline that Lancaster put in. But I don't think he could have done it if Lancaster hadn't first changed the culture that the 2003 veterans left behind.

3) Remove the shackles Related to (2), Eddie has changed the way the players play on the pitch. Last night I went to the first run of an RFU coaching course called CARDS (Creativity, Awareness, Resilience, Decision-Making and Self-organisation), which is the name they give to the approach they are using with the U16s and U18s, but which Eddie is also using. Essentially, they don't coach any real structure but instead condition the game to highlight a specific situation that they want them to react to and get the players to find their own answers. Before we went out and did it for ourselves, they showed a highlight video of England sides highlighting examples of how the players have applied it over the last year or so - it was pretty inspiring.

4) Use the bench effectively My big gripe with Lancaster's use of the bench wasn't the "pre-programmed" substitutions, but that the bench were almost always steady players who could close out a game - which got found in the RWC in particular. Eddie's benches are packed with players who excite you when they step onto the pitch and who bring a very different style from the starting XV - and they have been responsible for a lot of wins.

I think (1) and (2) could only happen because of the groundwork Lancaster laid; (3) and (4) are all Eddie.

by beshocked Wed 02 Aug 2017, 5:19 pm

Problem is the work of the AP and indeed Championship clubs are ignored. It's the AP and Championship Clubs who have given both Lancaster and Jones squads to work with.

Unfortunately Lancaster is the one taking the credit.

Compare our club structure to the French and it's no surprise, it's the French floundering at international level.

Poorfour your own club I would say have contributed more than Lancaster, yet it's Lancaster who gets the glory.

Look at Genge, he started out with Bristol then moved onto Leicester. Not the first player to do that. Mako Vunipola followed a similar path.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 02 Aug 2017, 6:39 pm

One good thing the clubs have done is employ more coaches. The French clubs have more money but I keep hearing that even their top clubs can be a bit unprofessional on the coaching side.

English clubs can afford more and better coaches because they have more money from the RFU & broadcasters. Also, the salary cap means you can't just throw all that dough at players.

by Poorfour Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:08 am

beshocked, I think you underestimate how much input the RFU has had into the academy system and top level academy coaching.

I can just about remember the academy system and its outputs before the RFU fixed its relationship with the clubs and helped to create the academy structure, and the difference is huge.

The clubs are doing a lot of good execution, but the structure was largely defined by the RFU and most of the talent scouting is done by RFU coaches.

The clubs deserve and get a lot of credit, but Lancaster had a big hand in creating the system and is the first England coach to have systematically and successfully brought academy graduates through into the senior team.

by Poorfour Thu 03 Aug 2017, 12:10 am

And by the way, my coach educators in the last two coaching courses I did were both RFU community development coaches assigned to the Saracens academy.

by beshocked Thu 03 Aug 2017, 9:04 am

Rugby fan fair point. Potentially £6m a year from the RFU is a nice incentive.
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/25644/exclusive-rfu-agree-220m-deal-for-their-premiership-clubs/

Poorfour don't get me wrong of course the RFU have their own input in the development process.

It's more than just one individual IMO.

You are right I probably do underestimate the RFU work in the academy system. It's not something I hear much about. Perhaps that's just my ignorance.

When I think of RFU and Saracens, I generally think of RFU's sponsorship of Farrell Sr and the frequent desire for RFU to utilise ex Saracens coaches/players and current coaches/players

The only RFU representative I've seen at Saracens has been the head honcho, Ian Ritchie himself but then again I haven't been looking for RFU academy community coaches and don't get involved in that stuff.

As for Lancaster, yes he has certainly done a lot of positive work with development of players.

Would be interesting to know how the academy catchment areas are now set out.

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