England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

I'd echo that. Looking forward to seeing what underhill can do coming into a team with confidence and playing well. Also looking forward to ghe mini.battle of Hughes and Clifford on Sunday. They'll both have to improve to oust vunipola but with his injury it's a huge opportunity.

Of course I've never been guilty of it myself, but I think a few of us are maybe getting a bit Over the hill about this lad. Anyone would think that he was a excitement machine with world class finishing ability...........all fingers crossed that he is the 7 of his generation and not just an over hyped fans fantasy.
Time will tell, so here's hoping.

Clifford is way behind Hughs in the pecking order at the moment I suspect. Hughes (for England) has been getting better with each game - and so far, is the current shirt holder - I wouldn't be surprised if Hughes starts the next game and Billy finishes it. We all know what Billy can do, but he is lacking matches at the moment.

Clifford will have to have a monumental game to come close to those 2 - and in the previous quins games he has been fairly anonymous.

kingelderfield wrote:Of course I've never been guilty of it myself, but I think a few of us are maybe getting a bit Over the hill about this lad. Anyone would think that he was a excitement machine with world class finishing ability...........all fingers crossed that he is the 7 of his generation and not just an over hyped fans fantasy.
Time will tell, so here's hoping.

Blame Eddie

propdavid_london wrote:Clifford is way behind Hughs in the pecking order at the moment I suspect.  Hughes (for England) has been getting better with each game - and so far, is the current shirt holder - I wouldn't be surprised if Hughes starts the next game and Billy finishes it.  We all know what Billy can do, but he is lacking matches at the moment.  

Clifford will have to have a monumental game to come close to those 2 - and in the previous quins games he has been fairly anonymous.  

Clifford played most of last season with a shoulder injury that needed surgery over the summer; it would be astonishing if Eddie wasn't aware of that. He needs to show that he has recovered properly and displays some form, but I don't think he is out of the running just yet.

I also don't think he's in direct competition with Vunipola, Hughes or even Underhill. He's competing for the bench spot; possibly with the Currys.

I do like it when the game immediately after comments on Lawes losing the ball in contact backs up the point. Underhill looked very good and a real tackling machine so really disappointing to see him pick up the head knock.

I saw the first half and Underhill was enjoying a storming performance, as described, a tackling machine. Let's hope the concussion does not become recurrent.
Separately, it appears obvious to me that most if not all Lions players are being brought back to soon. Watson, Itoje, Lawes, Mako Vunipola all look knackered and will each no doubt succumb to injury.
This idiotic short sightedness sickens me and unless all are rested this Autumn, they'll only get time away when they are injured. Utter madness.

Thought Watson looked excellent actually. If he continues like that I think this set of AI s may be the time we see brown slip out if the team. Of the others you name the only one possibly missing would be mako due to the fact with genge we now have 3 guys who are really pushing each other at present.

Cattle!

Ofcourse Watson is excellent, but don't ignore he's had no time to really refresh or build reserves of resilience. Off with separate injuries in both his last two games.

Come on Lewis!

Just didn't think he looked knackered. It's a good point of players needing time off and one which needs to be a priority for rugby as a whole. Those players named though I just think will be involved. To me they don't look tired. All started strongly. I do think their liable to have their performances drop off if they aren't looked after but it's going to be that December and January period where we'll se what their clubs decide.

The injury Watson picked up isn't really one which was down to overplaying rather a huge guy falling on him and twisting a knee for example.

Clifford had a very good game today. At least one try saving tackle, a great break, and lots of work and carries.

I wouldn't object to Watson taking over at fullback. He should have been the Lions fullback. But I'd like to see him eased into the role over a few games.

Yarde is one of those confidence players that can seem disinterested when he's struggling.

He looks for the ball so much in form that it's very noticeable when he stops searching for work. His tendency to hang off in defence and never attack the high ball makes for some ugly viewing in defence as well. It's a combination that makes him very frustrating to watch when he's out of form.

I agree with GF though. When Yarde's playing well he's still a very good winger though.

11.May, Yarde
14.Nowell, Roko
15.Watson, Brown

Add Daly as well and the back three finally has pace, depth and different options for different opposition and conditions.

Yup.
We've finally got depth in every position:
1. Marler, Mako, Genge
2. Hartley, George
3. Cole, Sinckler, Williams (still don't get it), Collier
4. Launchbury, Itoje, Ewels
5. Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe
6. Robshaw, Wilson
7. Underhill, Curry, Haskell, Curry
8. Billy, Hughes, Clifford
9. Youngs, Care
10. Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, ? Smith
11. May, Yarde
12. Farrell, Te'o, Francis
13. Joseph, Slade, ? Marchant
14. Nowell, ? (Eddie doesn't seem to trust Roko)
15. Brown, Watson.

While I'd be nervous if we fielded a squad made entirely of second stringers, we can afford an injury in four or five positions and still put out a strong squad.

At the moment, I'd back most of the permutations from that lot against most teams bar the All Blacks and Ireland away

Poorfour wrote:Yup.
We've finally got depth in every position:
1. Marler, Mako, Genge
2. Hartley, George
3. Cole, Sinckler, Williams (still don't get it), Collier
4. Launchbury, Itoje, Ewels
5. Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe
6. Robshaw, Wilson
7. Underhill, Curry, Haskell, Curry
8. Billy, Hughes, Clifford
9. Youngs, Care
10. Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, ? Smith
11. May, Yarde
12. Farrell, Te'o, Francis
13. Joseph, Slade, ? Marchant
14. Nowell, ? (Eddie doesn't seem to trust Roko)
15. Brown, Watson.

While I'd be nervous if we fielded a squad made entirely of second stringers, we can afford an injury in four or five positions and still put out a strong squad.

At the moment, I'd back most of the permutations from that lot against most teams bar the All Blacks and Ireland away

Can add a lot more that are fighting for spots - there is LCD just behind Hartley and George. Also with Tommy Taylor when he is fit.
Eliot Daly is established, although with EJ more as a wing - and did well for the Lions too.
Robson must surely be in contention for a test shirt as Care has dropped in my mind.
Solomona also offering another wing option - I don't believe EJ would hang him out to dry!

Its really nice to see that in almost every position there are at least 3 really strong contenders.

Add in the other players that may come into the reckoning before the 6N, from Saints alone, Mallinder if he can get back to playing 12, Collins is on fire as an alternative to Nowell, Ribbans is playing superbly and is EQ, Burrell seems to have found the form of a few years ago.

I am sure you could all name a few from your club that may go that extra yard by February, maybe one or two of them will sneak in.

The depth is pleasing, everywhere except perhaps a couple of positions. I am thinking at fullback mainly. Brown has got to be coming into the twilight of his international career and Watson will need cover when Brown calls time. If we stick to principle that we want 3 players in every position, Eddie is going to need to find two decent fullbacks who are in their early to mid twenties and playing week in week out. The situation is tailor made for someone like Mike Haley, Jason Woodward or Simon Hammersley to put their hands up.

Same situation at scrum half too. It seems to have been Care and Youngs fighting it out forever with no pressure coming through from any of the younger lads. In my opinion this is Robson's opportunity, if Eddie doesn't pick him (with the form he is in) it will suggest to me that he just doesn't rate him and he will never get a proper chance with Jones in charge.

Blindside looks a little thin too, Robshaw is in his 30's now and will probably see us though to the next World Cup but no further. Wilson is still only 27/28 but has yet to properly establish himself in the team. We need another young 6ft 3in+ 17 stone bruiser coming through to take on the mantle.

We're not short of back row candidates for once - both Currys, Mercer, Chisholm (assuming he gets over his concussion - been lingering for several months now)... most clubs seem to have one. The challenge will be bringing through a combination who work well with Billy and Hughes.

Early days but there's sam simmonds who I think could go on to challenge that blindside role.

Will Kvesic re-ignite his international prospects following his move to Chiefs.
Dave Ewers when he comes back from injury.
Who was that young U20s back rower from Tigers that people were talking about last season? He was pulled into 1 or 2 training camps I thought.

Will Evans has been in the EPS for much for EJs tenure.

He is excellent over the ball, strong tackler, has a big engine, good hands and links well with forwards and backs. An old school openside in the Neil Back mould so whether he'd fit Jones gameplan is debatable. Jones may well be looking to adapt that game plan as young talents mature though.

He was injured for the back end of last season and hasn't featured in the first 3 games. Hopefully he returns soon, fully fit and continues to impress.

As we all name the next set it's worth remembering that the knack comes identifying people quickly and giving them the run of chances before moving on.

As a Scot looking from the outside, I think England are looking very very strong. My only real concern would be centres lacking size if he continues to play ford/Farrell and surely he has to put Watson or daly at fb soon?

With regards to the forwards, underhill gives the back row a lot more balance. But one player who I think has the perfect attributes to play 6 is jack Clifford, he can get away with playing 7 or 8 at club level but at 6 for England he will offer additional break down work and a carrying ability which will compliment billy ?

CraigS1874 wrote:As a Scot looking from the outside, I think England are looking very very strong. My only real concern would be centres lacking size if he continues to play ford/Farrell and surely he has to put Watson or daly at fb soon?

With regards to the forwards, underhill gives the back row a lot more balance. But one player who I think has the perfect attributes to play 6 is jack Clifford, he can get away with playing 7 or 8 at club level but at 6 for England he will offer additional break down work and a carrying ability which will compliment billy ?

Eddie's spoken about Clifford being a long term 8 who will have to start out playing 7, though I suspect he's most likely to continue to be used as a finisher across the back row. He looks back to form this season after surgery at the end of last season, though it will be interesting to see if he's done enough to be part of the training squad.

The biggest barrier to him getting the 6 shirt for England (if you discount the ongoing calls to play a lock there) is getting the 6 shirt for Quins. I can't see him getting the former without the latter. Given the incumbent, if he can get the shirt at Quins, he will have earned a shot at it for England.

Well if Jones is looking for a tackling machine to replace Haskell...then the ready made replacement would appear to be Underhill.

I guess it depends what direction Jones and his coaching team want to take the pack.

A.
Continue with the huge power game...
or
B.
Try to continue the power game but at the same time try to bring in some more skilful indivudals.

If we are to match / beat NZ going the large, workhorse, powerhouse pack route is not enough! We need some enterprise and skill in there as well.

Do we really have a pack that plays a huge power game? I'm not sure. We have Billy and Hughes, and we have Mako and the Sinck on the bench, but Haskell and his blasting tactics were only ever painted as a stop-gap until we had a more traditional scavenger.

It may be that the ruck changes mean persisting with those tactics makes more sense, but I think it's more likely that Underhill - if he can stay fit - will be eased into the 7 role. That said, he seems to have more in common with Sam Warburton than just being a 7/6 who has plied his trade in Wales...

I definitely think there was been a degree of emphasis towards that poorfour...though maybe we didn't quite have the personnel to play that game fully anymore. But with different skilled players now coming through maybe that will change.

England: Four Lions players not included in 33-man training squad - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41358628

Update on the beeb. Still only a training squad but a pretty good indication of where jones is aiming.

mp

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Interesting - Sinks, Kruis, Haskell, Joseph left out

Sinkler I can only assume EJ knows everything he needs to know following a really successful Lions tour.
Kruis - injured
Haskell - first game back was last weekend - perhaps EJ wasn't happy with the reaction! Underhill as future replacement (tackling machine)
Joseph - Didn't have a great Lions tour and been defensively solid for Bath but not spectacular - not sure where EJ is going there!

Absentees - think Collier is unlucky to miss out, Robson too.

Surprised he is there - Yarde (aside from 1 good game against tigers), Marcus Smith (the hype continues), Piers Francis

Tom Dunn?

That is an interesting squad, in the backs you have:

9. Care, Youngs
10. Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Smith
11/14. Yarde, Watson, Nowell, May
12/13. Te'o, Francis?, Daly
15. Brown, Daly

Its just a training squad I take it? This isn't the Nov test training squad is it?

You can still make a decent test side from the squad though -

Would like to see -
Marler, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Itoje, Robshaw, Underhill, Hghes, Youngs, Ford, Daley, Farrell, Teo, Watson, Brown

Bench/Finishers -
Mako, George, (would have Sinks but H.Williams), Launchbury, Billy V, Care, Nowell, Slade

Games are -
Argentina, Australia and Samoa

I expect EJ to pick a pretty strong team for Both Argentina and Australia - he may tinker a bit more for the Samoa game (risky) but there aren't many opportunities left to experiment.
Genge will surely be used at some point as a finisher - would love to see the impact front row of Genge/Sinks and George all coming on at the same time!
Tom Curry may get another shot and the centre experimentation with Lozowski and Piers Francis may well continue.
This is still leaving out a quality wing in Jonny May.

Marcus Smith is just there for the experience.

It does seem short at 13 unless he's going with Te'o.

I do wonder if JJ is just blowing a bit hot and cold. When he's good he's very good but that does not seem to be all the time.

Also interesting that Solomona misses out. I know there is the discipline thing but if they are serious about using him you would have thought they would want to get him more involved and quickly. Still Watson/May/Nowell is a pretty good set to start with

Think the Solomona thing is a lot easier to do when Tuilagi has ruled himself out through injury again

A fit and firing Tuilagi would have been very difficult to ignore, especially with JJ dropping out.

Solomona has been playing well too from what I've seen, but difficult to say he has done enough to be picked ahead of Watson/May/Nowell/Daly, especially with the utility the latter two offer

Not sure what Tom Dunn is doing there, he was made to look very ordinary by Mikey Haywood last week. Struggled to hit the proverbial barn door when throwing in.

I suspect there ll be a few additions still but this is the time for slade. If he misses out now he'll never get a look in I suspect.

Odd about Synkler missing out, unless he's added to the squad at a later date, or Jones has something planned for him long term.

It may be he is going with a simple rest for a few guys who played a lot and look slightly off. Or guys who are nailed on while he looks at alternatives etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It may be he is going with a simple rest for a few guys who played a lot and look slightly off. Or guys who are nailed on while he looks at alternatives etc.

Does he have a history of leaving out nailed on players? I can't remember him doing it.

For training squads I can't remember.

propdavid_london wrote:Interesting - Sinkler I can only assume EJ knows everything he needs to know following a really successful Lions tour.
Kruis - injured
Haskell - first game back was last weekend - perhaps EJ wasn't happy with the reaction!  Underhill as future replacement (tackling machine)
Joseph - Didn't have a great Lions tour and been defensively solid for Bath but not spectacular - not sure where EJ is going there!

Absentees - think Collier is unlucky to miss out, Robson too.  

I'm thinking this is more of a deliberate EJ message to these players and I expect 3 if not all 4 to be in the actual squad. Sinkler especially is still very new to international rugby, can't see that EJ would waste a couching opportunity with such a talent without what he feels is good reason. If he knows everything about Sinkler then what is left to learn about Robshaw or Dan Cole? It can't be a rest thing either because I'm pretty sure Cole played more minutes on the Lions tour than Sinkler.

Speculating but could it be that he wants to see how all 4 respond to missing out?

Sinkler - After his success does he want to keep his feet on the ground so to speak? We know that attitude is a big thing for Jones. Maybe he also wants him to cut out the seemingly one stupid pen per game that can happen.
Kruis - EJ has stated before he wants him to be more aggressive. Maybe looking for the appropriate response as he comes back from a disappointing Lions tour and early season injury?
Haskell - Message is that he needs to return to his pre toe injury form? Playing on the open side this week for Wasps might help him be more prominent.
Joseph - He rested (dropped) him once before and JJ came back with a bang. Maybe looking for the same again?

Although I'm not convinced that Jones rates Robson at the very top level isn't he currently injured anyway? I think that Collier is a little unlucky in that we have a few decent TH's available at the moment.

Great way for the big gob to inspire confidence in Marcus Smith, telling the media he'll be shining Ford's boots - you can just about imagine the fallout on here and social media if Gatland said it about anyone in the Lions squad, even if it was some baggage player like Kruis.

It's just a training squad as the others have been .
He's just looking at players and combinations and seeing who has the potential to become world class and who isn't.

Etc etc etc etc

He's 18 and has had two games right? Makes me wonder what Jones sees in him. It would have been good until Jones told him he was only there to shine boots, now I'm not so sure. Jones sure does get a free ticket from England fans, Gatland doing it always made you lot go crazy.

Surely it is a vote of confidence in Smith that he is even there in the first place? Reckon Jones is testing the lads mettle and attitude.  What is he supposed to do?  Tell the lad he is definitely going to be involved?   If that is Smith's expectation (I'm sure it isn't) then he needs taken down a peg or two.  Jones has seen summat in the lad that he likes, but won't let him get carried away with himself, not seeing what you are objecting to here?  

This approach has served England well over the last few years with both Itoje and Sinkler receiving similar treatment.  They were there to watch and learn, and now they are both Lions.  Planned progression.

mikey, about 20 years ago Clive Woodward invited a promising 16-year old to join the England training camp. 6 years later, he kicked the drop goal that won the RWC.

Smith may or may not be in that league, but in his games so far he's shown a similar skill set to George Ford at the same age. Ford got involved with the England setup at about the same age, and is now an established international fly half with a grand slam, a series win in Australia and a world record to his name.

I would be hugely surprised if Smith played this Autumn (though it's not impossible - it's England's easiest autumn for years and Eddie's last chance to experiment before the RWC), but if his development is managed carefully he could be a mainstay of the squad post 2019.

Plus it doesn't hurt to keep Ford and Farrell on their toes.

Poorfour wrote:mikey, about 20 years ago Clive Woodward invited a promising 16-year old to join the England training camp. 6 years later, he kicked the drop goal that won the RWC.

Smith may or may not be in that league, but in his games so far he's shown a similar skill set to George Ford at the same age. Ford got involved with the England setup at about the same age, and is now an established international fly half with a grand slam, a series win in Australia and a world record to his name.

I would be hugely surprised if Smith played this Autumn (though it's not impossible - it's England's easiest autumn for years and Eddie's last chance to experiment before the RWC), but if his development is managed carefully he could be a mainstay of the squad post 2019.

Plus it doesn't hurt to keep Ford and Farrell on their toes.

You obviously know a lot more about England rugby than me and good luck to Smith, I honestly mean that. I just don't think Jones should have said that and why he continues to get a free ticket when others do not...

mikey_dragon wrote:[ just don't think Jones should have said that and why he continues to get a free ticket when others do not...

Can't recall any coach being slated for saying what Jones said.

Probably going to be some guff from mikey about comparing Jones handling of Smith with Blockhead bringing Welsh dross across to the Lions tour telling them they weren't going to play

Because obviously the two things are comparable, and Kristian Dacey/Cory Hill are going to be just as big assets to the Lions in 4 years time as Smith will be to England

Oh, you mean the boot polishing thing? That's just Eddie trying to calm down the press, who are getting a bit over excited about Smith.

In British English it means "he's here to get experience of what a training camp is about, and some specific work one from the coaches, because we see him as someone with long term potential. But don't expect that he'll play in the AIs just because I've brought him to a camp".

The Guardian has a much fuller version of the interview than has been reported elsewhere and the spirit of what he's said is much clearer.