England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

beshocked wrote:
Would be interesting to know how the academy catchment areas are now set out.

My understanding is that it's a very symbiotic relationship between the academies and the RFU, which is borne out by my experience of how the amateur coach development is done.

And as to catchment areas... yes. It would be very good to know, especially as poorfour jr is going into the U13s next year and is one of our clubs's contenders to go forward for county trials.

The list of development officers, sub divided into 6 areas and listed by county can be found here:

http://www.englandrugby.com/about-the-rfu/contact-the-rfu/regional-development-team-contact-list/


Of course that does not state which county is with which Academy, and some such as Warwickshire are now split (between Worcester and Wasps since the move to Coventry).


However info for some academies is available:

Saints
Tigers
Falcons
Warriors
Quins - Surrey, Sussex, Inner London

I am sure there are more - but ta single document with all 14 academies on has proven difficult to find

Poorfour wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Would be interesting to know how the academy catchment areas are now set out.

My understanding is that it's a very symbiotic relationship between the academies and the RFU, which is borne out by my experience of how the amateur coach development is done.

And as to catchment areas... yes. It would be very good to know, especially as poorfour jr is going into the U13s next year and is one of our clubs's contenders to go forward for county trials.

They are all effectively owned by the RFU, and joint funded with PRL.
Not sure what the exact boundaries are mind, and subject to change anyway if certain clubs get relegated and lose their licenses,  but theres traditionaly been ways of fudging round it if you really want him at a specific club.

I think the academies fall under Dean Ryans world ( they appointed a new guy to actually manage under him earlier this year...from Saracens?). Im pretty sure it was him that did a hatchet piece on them a couple of years ago saying they were producing robots who never actually played rugby and couldnt think for themselves. It ties in with what some of the pundits, and Jones, have noted about the recent generation of England wonderkids. Theres a lot of excellent skills and athletes but they lack the decision making abilities and leadership you got with previous generations of players who came through less structured routes but played a lot of low division or A team rugby.

Going back vaguely on topic ... there is value in players like Robshaw and Hartley purely from a leadership and example setting perspective. As fans its very hard to see that, but successive managers and teams seem to rate it very highly for a reason.

Nick Kennedy was saying London Irish had gained some of Wasps academy areas since the Coventry move.

Falcons cover a huge area...Cumbria, Teeside, Durham, Northumberland, Tyneside etc...

And Teesside.

I have teeside in

2 s' my friend.

Falcons have Teesside too Geordie, wherever that is.

Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Kennedy was saying London Irish had gained some of Wasps academy areas since the Coventry move.

Yeah, they gained Middlesex

Screw you pooly!

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Would be interesting to know how the academy catchment areas are now set out.

My understanding is that it's a very symbiotic relationship between the academies and the RFU, which is borne out by my experience of how the amateur coach development is done.

And as to catchment areas... yes. It would be very good to know, especially as poorfour jr is going into the U13s next year and is one of our clubs's contenders to go forward for county trials.

They are all effectively owned by the RFU, and joint funded with PRL.
Not sure what the exact boundaries are mind, and subject to change anyway if certain clubs get relegated and lose their licenses,  but theres traditionaly been ways of fudging round it if you really want him at a specific club.

The boundaries were revised as part of the new Professional Game Agreement signed last Summer and running (I think) for 8 years.

The 14 academies and the boundaries are set in stone for that period and cover the current 12 premiership teams and Bristol and Leeds.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Falcons have Teesside too Geordie, wherever that is.

The ugly bit at the side of the river Tees.

Teesdale (where I grew up) being the pretty bit at the side of the Tees.

Of course according to the RFU, Teesside is in Durham (and Tyneside in Northumberland)

No 7&1/2 wrote:Screw you pooly!

Haha...does Teesside still actually exist? I though Middlesbrough had been amalgamated into N.Yorks?

Very interesting. Didn't realise that Leicester and Saints had such large catchment areas despite being neighbours.

I would speculate that Saracens' catchment areas would be Middlesex,Essex and Hertfordshire.


Maybe Kent?

Wasps is a bit of a strange one because do they retain former areas? What happens to Buckinghamshire?

Not sure how it all works with a lot of clubs in the West Midlands.


Worcester's potential catchment area seems tiny compared to other clubs.

Now of course the relevance is that if you have a bigger catchment area you can obviously get the pick of more players with the most potential.

LI have Middlesex (former Wasps) which means Harrow school is now in their catchment area.

Sarries have Essex, Herts, Cambs (and probably Kent).

Saints And Tigers have horizontal strips with Tigers having the more northerly one (ie Saints have Suffolk, Tigers have Norfolk)

Also, while big geographically, Saints and Tigers are not so large in population terms as other areas.

LondonTiger wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Kennedy was saying London Irish had gained some of Wasps academy areas since the Coventry move.

Yeah, they gained Middlesex

The whole of Middlesex? I would be shocked if that was the case. Problem with Middlesex - is it's a ceremonial county. It doesn't have proper boundaries anymore.

I think it's more likely London Irish have the southern part. Surely the surrounding areas of a specific club would be their catchment areas?

As for Harrow School, it's surely not that straightforward? One of their partnerships is with Saracens foundation. Obviously Itoje went there,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlesex

This is a map of original county of Middlesex.

I would expect Middlesex is divided up.

The counties are split up according to RFU guidelines. So Middlesex covers all the clubs in that catchment area. LI inherited the entire lot.

As to Harrow School, they were linked with Wasps and as such transfer, but there is a grey area when a club arrange for a player to attend a school. Itoje's link with Sarries is due to him originally being in Harpenden which is Herts.

LondonTiger wrote:The counties are split up according to RFU guidelines. So Middlesex covers all the clubs in that catchment area. LI inherited the entire lot.

As to Harrow School, they were linked with Wasps and as such transfer, but there is a grey area when a club arrange for a player to attend a school. Itoje's link with Sarries is due to him originally being in Harpenden which is Herts.

Whilst one could debate quite logically that Ealing and below in Middlesex would be inherited by London Irish.

Areas in North Middlesex from Hendon, all the way up to Potters Bar and Enfield are surely all Saracens catchment areas.

Would make no sense otherwise.  I would find it galling if someone from Saracens heartlands wasn't in the Saracens academy catchment area.

Think its easier to just give a county as a whole to a club

Quins, LI and Saracens all have claims to different parts of Middlesex, where do you draw the lines?

Kent is definitely Saracens territory, its where I grew up! Piers Francis was at school with me and I'm pretty sure he was at Saracens for a bit

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Screw you pooly!

Haha...does Teesside still actually exist? I though Middlesbrough had been amalgamated into N.Yorks?

Only for ceremonial purposes I believe. Middlesbrough is actually autonomous in that sense.

Likewise for Stockton-on-Tees, autonomous on a local government level, but ceremonially is split between both County Durham and North Yorkshire. There are others too (all from the breakup of Cleveland, like Re...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Potters Bar and Hendon are in Herts (for RFU purposes).

As far as I know of all the constituent counties within the RFU, Warwickshire is the only one that is split. It was part of Worcester's area, and they have their secondary academy at Warwick school, but Coventry is also in the county, so with the move by Wasps it was split.

http://middlesexrugby.com/county/middlesex-clubs/

You will notice that Harlequins are on this list !!

That sounds about right - despite being a club actually based in Middlesex, Quins have never really featured in any of the Middlesex Rugby content.

But boundaries are definitely a bit fuzzy - our local clubs (Barnes, Bank of England, Rosslyn Park) are all technically the Surrey side of the Thames but we throw our lot in with Middlesex...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Falcons have Teesside too Geordie, wherever that is.

Its like a reality version of the Walking Dead

And screw you gf!

Tuilagi straight back into the training squad and a newbie I haven't heard of in Marcus smith of quins.

Manu Tuilagi: Leicester centre included in 37-man England training squad - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40817753

Smith looked a real talent in the 7s at the weekend, he's barely out of nappies though!

Some interesting names in that list, never heard of Marcus Smith either, not even heard a 'heads up, watch this guy'. Completely out of the blue for me. Tom Dunn is a surprise too, especially considering he has been out injured with a broken ankle.

I wonder why Wigglesworth is there. We've got the experience of Care and Youngs and the potential of Maunder, seems a little superfluous.

Can't make my mind up about Tuilagi. Really want him to be fit and firing, he would give Eddie a good headache.

Still, think you could make a good team out of that training squad.

Smith gets good reviews from the quins setup although me being biased rates Hardwick more......

Cumbrian wrote:Some interesting names in that list, never heard of Marcus Smith either, not even heard a 'heads up, watch this guy'. Completely out of the blue for me. Tom Dunn is a surprise too, especially considering he has been out injured with a broken ankle.

Smith is pretty highly touted to be fair. Played some U20's this year, despite being two years young. Trained with England in camp back in May, but not officially part of the training squad then. Was due to go on the U18 tour to South Africa this month.

Eddie seems pretty determined to get kids in camp who look likely to make it to get an early look at them. Quite slight though, so don't see him getting too near an international appearance in the near future. Some AP experience would be a start...

To be fair, I haven't been able to keep up with the England age groups as much over the last couple of years. I like the planned progression. However, if Eddie is going down that route, I'm a little surprised that he has skipped over Max Malins who looked superb for the U20s.

Don't forget it's just a training squad. A chance to have a look at players old and young, new and recognised and give them training plans for the year ahead or more... Etc.
There'll be many through the season with different players called in....

They'll just give Manu the once over... Nothing intense.

Likewise the youngsters we don't know of, are given a chance to see what is required, intensity at this level that Jones demands etc....

I like the idea...then he'll name the proper squad for the Ai's.

I'm still puzzled why Sam James is not in though.  He looks a hell of a prospect at centre!

Eddie is have a good look at a lot of players, and not necessarily the ones we thought were in the pipeline.
He's said that this camp is mainly about 121 meetings - setting objectives, medical testing and a bit of training.
There isn't too much to read into it all - but its nice to see EJ casting a wide net.

High praise from Jones on Smith:

Eddie Jones (via the BBC)
Jones has also drafted in 18-year-old Harlequins' Marcus Smith, who he believes is the "best young fly-half" in England.
Smith has yet to make his senior debut for Quins, but former Japan coach Jones has been monitoring his progress for a while.

"Back in 2015, Japan had a lot of training camps in Brighton, and I saw him train with his school. He is a guy that stood out," Jones said.

"He was in the development pathway for England, and I've been keeping close tabs on him.

"He's certainly the best young fly-half around, and we need some pressure on those old guys George [Ford] and Owen [Farrell].

"We see enough about him to be the fourth-choice 10 in our squad."

Interesting times if a young guy who looks as complete as Malins can't get a look in.

I noticed on the BBC article (how could you not) that the usual questions about Manu were asked, but it does seem that EJ is keen to use him if he's one piece. I just hope the years of not playing means that his body has not clocked up the generic wear and tear it would have done

I don't think the praise for that young fh means Malins is not on the radar.

There'll be plenty of thea training camps and Mallins will be involved in some.

I like how Jones uses these meet ups to be honest.

There are plenty that have been left out - The likes of Mercer is every bit as effective as the Currys! Malins too, Brophey Clewes (when fit), Gabriel Ibitoye - I am sure they will all get a shot with the seniors at some point and get a chance to impress the boss.
Malins I thought was more of a centre/15 - he was only drafted into no.10 during the 6N and JWC as cover.

Denny Solomona and Manu Tuilagi sent home from the England training camp for "team culture issues"

Tuilagi definitely won

BamBam wrote:Denny Solomona and Manu Tuilagi sent home from the England training camp for "team culture issues"

Tuilagi definitely won

Yard of ale competition?

Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

Well, the highest profile issue did happen in Leicester.

I am hoping this was not an alcohol fueled incident as he had apparently gone teetotal.

According to the latest update on BBC it "is thought to involve alcohol".

I think Manu has some demons.

The beeb says wrote:The RFU did not comment further but the issue is thought to be alcohol-related.

The pair, who trained on Saturday and Sunday, are understood to have gone out on Sunday evening and contravened the team's cultural standards.

*sigh.

Article does say alcohol related - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40851494

Oh dear Manu - lets hope its nothing too serious that would tarnish EJ's opinion of him - sad that its 2 fringe players that really should be keeping their heads down and doing everything they can to impress the boss.

LondonTiger wrote:Well, the highest profile issue did happen in Leicester.

I am hoping this was not an alcohol fueled incident as he had apparently gone teetotal.

Don't think he did go Teetotal.

Welly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Well, the highest profile issue did happen in Leicester.

I am hoping this was not an alcohol fueled incident as he had apparently gone teetotal.

Don't think he did go Teetotal.

Shame.

Vailima.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Manu seems to be a bit of a trouble magnet where England are concerned.

Does he have these sorts of problems at Tigers, or is it just frustration at being out for so long?

I think some of this is a bit overblown.

The only notable Rugby he's missed through indiscipline is a prem final (when he lamped Ashton). You could argue the World Cup falls under that, but if I remember rightly Manu maintains his innocence and insists he was injured anyway, and so was advised to plead guilty for a swift and speedy resolution.

The other incidents being the ferry jump (daft, but he was just a pup in his first season for Eng) and the Cameron bunny ears thing (which is ridiculously overblown in my eyes) might be a bit of undesirable press, but a bit of a stretch to call them trouble IMO.

Perhaps the reason these things are so prominent are because he's spent so much time injured, that he is inevitably in the spotlight when he is fit to play.

Given he hasn't actually missed much Rugby through indiscipline, and this is his first misdemeanor under Jones I'm fully expecting Jones to give him another chance.

He pleaded innocence over lamping Ashton ?

Hugely sure assaulting two police officers hasn't helped his case either.