England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

mikey_dragon wrote:He's 18 and has had two games right? Makes me wonder what Jones sees in him. It would have been good until Jones told him he was only there to shine boots, now I'm not so sure. Jones sure does get a free ticket from England fans, Gatland doing it always made you lot go crazy.

Cheer up Mikey


Any way, EJ has known Smith since '15 so I imagine has probably had more conversations then just the sound bite for the media. Smith is 5th choice, is there to learn and carry tackle bags, he won't care what EJ says, the fact he's in the squad speaks volumes.

Also worth noting EJ gave a certain Matt Giteau his first Oz cap before he'd even played a pro game, so he probably knows a bit about this kind of thing.

Also who is Piere Francis, and is he any good?

Plays for northampton. Went on the summer tour and played 12.
Looked ok got plaudits from some.

Jones was at the harlequins game and he'd have got a fair few notes from that game. Genge was fantastic in scrum and open play bar a knock on from a great carry.

Yarde started much better than may but then may showed him up for his try. May butchered a try in he 1st after a bad pass.

Smith came off injured at 40 odd min but was a shining light when on. Played flat passing excellent .

Clifford was my man of the match. Carried strongly and intelligently. Link up play was superb as well. With Robshaw coming off after getting knocked out he could well benefit.

Finally anyone wanting to make a point that ford is weak defensively please watch that match.

yappysnap wrote:Also worth noting EJ gave a certain Matt Giteau his first Oz cap before he'd even played a pro game, so he probably knows a bit about this kind of thing.

I've never doubted Jones' ability to bring through players, but unless Smith shined a few boots today then he will not have been impressed.

He did impress.

Ford had his shiny boots on for the full 80 then.

Nope. Not sure what you're issue is really. What do you think of smith so far?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Not sure what you're issue is really. What do you think of smith so far?

Haven't seen much of him but he must be very good to be starting for Quins aged just 18.

He wouldn't necessarily be starting if everyone was fit but he clearly has talent and let's be honest mist players need that little bit of luck with injuries to gt a chance (earlier than perhaps they would have). Give the guy a watch when you can very classy player and to speak in stereotypes you Welsh love your tens.

Clifford called up to replace vunipola who went off injured yesterday.

Billy Vunipola out for four months

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41379955

Rugby Fan wrote:Billy Vunipola out for four months

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41379955

Thank fek for Nathan Hughes *sigh...

I thought Slade was excellent today at 13. He has struggled to convince as a 10 to date, but looks very comfortable at 13 and I think that's the position EJ has selected him to play. That could mean Ford, Farrell and Slade as 10, 12, 13, which is more footballing ability than some England sides have had! This could then evolve into Farrell, Te'o, Slade, which might be better balanced (not that I sense Jones is on the verge of dropping Ford).

It's good to see Clifford playing so well, but I wonder how long it will be before Simmons gets a call up? I thought Nowell looked sharp today, and Smith looks a really exciting prospect, even though FH is a position of strength for England already.

At the camp I hope Lozowski will be given a run at FB.

Overall I is a good looking squad. Jones has a lot of talent to choose from.

DaveM wrote:...I wonder how long it will be before Simmons gets a call up?...

Any word yet on his injury? Never good to see a player on a stretcher.

He was sat on the bench looking ok shortly afterwards, so hopefully it is nothing too serious.

Can't remember which thread was talking about workload and player pay so ill stick this here.

Billy Vunipola: Saracens and England player would take pay cut to avoid burnout - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41366795

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't remember which thread was talking about workload and player pay so ill stick this here.

Billy Vunipola: Saracens and England player would take pay cut to avoid burnout - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41366795

It's a good interview. Recorded before his recent injury, worth listening to the whole thing on the BBC Rugby podcast with Ugo Monye. The link is in that story.

It was quite instructive to see Smith play 50 minutes and then Swiel (who played the most minutes at fly half for Quins last season) take over. They can both kick a bit and attack the line, but the attack was much less effective with Swiel.

The big difference - which is one thing Eddie has highlighted in his interviews - is how Smith sees the game and directs the play. He's capable of changing the direction of play based on what he's seeing, and not just with kicks - he's getting the running game going on both wings. He also regularly runs behind the player in possession to take a little behind the back pop, that allows him to move the point of attack. I've only seen Quins do this with Smith on the pitch, so I think he is the one calling it.

As Eddie has said, he's on his apprenticeship at the moment, and it's up to him how quickly he completes it, and up to the coaches to make sure that the pace is managed. But I think among English fly halves only Ford sees and uses the space better, and the way he controls his team as an 18 year old is a bit special.

It's not great to see Billy injured again; I increasingly worry when a big hitting player has a long injury layoff, because they seem to be more injury prone when they return. It happened with Wilkinson, is happening with Tuilagi and I hope it doesn't happen with Billy. He needs to be eased back in and given a chance to toughen up before being thrown into the fight.

However, it'll be good to see how Clifford responds to his callup. He seems to be over the injuries that limited him last season and has been close to his best in the opening few games. He now needs to translate that into the England setup. He's facing more competition in all of his potential positions from Curry, Underhill and Hughes; the best outcome is that it spurs all of them to play better.

Updates from the weekend - Billy out for 4mths. Robshaw was off with a head injury (hopefully not serious) - could hear the collision from the other side of the pitch.
Apparently Watson was injured - don't know how bad though.
Simmonds - the young Chiefs no.8 was stretchered off, shame as could have been called up with the Billy V injury (long shot I know).
Is anyone else injured that could/would have been involved in the EPS?

Marcus Smith went off injured - just looked like he pulled up from a clearing kick.

Scottrf wrote:Marcus Smith went off injured - just looked like he pulled up from a clearing kick.

Unofficial word around Quins is that it was a tight calf. He walked off, so hopefully it was precautionary. I'm more worried about Robshaw, though he also walked off so I am hoping he will be back in action next week.

With the number of late'ish hits he was taking on Saturday I am pleased that that's all he went off for.

He's going to get plenty more hits the way he plays. As poorfour says Harlequins looked a much more blunt force once he went off as well.

Lateish hits are part of it as a 10, just as long as he isn't "Farrelled"

No worries about burn out the way they're all dropping like flies!

Post Lions hangover?

There does seem to be a lot of injuries so far, but I can't really remember previous years to compare.

We should still have:

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Itoje
Robshaw
Haskell
Hughes
Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Nowell
Brown

Vunipola, Synkler, George, Launchbury, Clifford, Care, Te'o, Daly

Also we then have guys like Genge, Collier, Underhill, Te'o, Lozowski who all have experience and can come in too.

Would you really have Hartley starting over George now yappy? Thought that George was excellent on the Lions tour and offers a lot more than Hartley.

The old argument of the overall team and bench working together. As and when LCD or Taylor come back to fitness and form hartley will drop out. The argument bow is that Hartley has started the season very well and is it better for the team to start with the solidity of hartley and bring george on vs tired legs. I'd agree overall george is better than hartley but which impact for the team is better when in games you'll only really have a difference of about 20 min of play for hookers anyway?

I actually like Hartley, I really do. I think he has that niggle about him that gets the other players tails up. A bit of an old school player in my mind. I just think that George is far more dynamic in the loose and stronger in the scrum so I would start with George and have Hartley as sub.

To be fair I thought George was really uninspiring when he started for the Lions Billy. That might be fatigue too, but he was no where near his best that he's shown for club and country.

He's a fantastic sub, capable of making a big impact. But the tactics for a starting hooker are very different and don't play to his strengths.

I can see next year being Hartleys last too unless he has a renaissance, after that, who knows.

Vunipola/Marler and Synkler/Cole have the same strengths and weaknesses, Marler/cole are natural starters and Vunipola/Synkler are natural finishers.

That's one of the points though yappy, Hartley is no longer the future for England and maybe has only 1 year left in him. That is why I would start George and have Hartley on the bench. I feel George would do well starting games and be shown some faith. Hartley in the squad would keep that experience at hand.

eirebilly Jones won't drop Hartley.

That's the reality. It doesn't matter whether fans agree or not. His spot is set in stone and has been since Jones has been in charge.


Same with Mike Brown. Doesn't matter if Brown doesn't believe in passing the ball - he will keep getting picked.

It does not matter to Jones how well either player is performing.

If Hartley is playing well, then good, makes a change.


Now of course personally believe England need to move on but as long as Jones' England are winning his questionable selections will not be questioned.

beshocked wrote:If Hartley is playing well, then good, makes a change.

Was a nice change when he schooled George the last time they met

I like Brown beshocked, think he is a quality player. That said, I also really rate Watson at 15 so I would select him over Brown.

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:If Hartley is playing well, then good, makes a change.

Was a nice change when he schooled George the last time they met

You mean in the game when George captained a not full strength Saracens to victory against a full strength Saints side?

Yes I remember it.


eirebilly I used to like Brown but I feel like he's lost a bit of pace and power, he's not making as many breaks as he used to IMO and it highlights his lack of desire to pass the ball.

Too often I see Brown ignoring his team mates next to him. Too often tries to beat defenders when the smarter option is to pass or kick.

beshocked wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

beshocked wrote:If Hartley is playing well, then good, makes a change.

Was a nice change when he schooled George the last time they met

You mean in the game when George captained a not full strength Saracens to victory against a full strength Saints side?

Yes I remember it.

If you remember it you'll realise Sarries only came out of their shell when Hartley went off.

Agree about Brown, he's a club legend but he's not an international class 15 any more. This season he's not even as solid and reliable as he once was, dropping balls and missing tackles.

Daly or Watson should be lined up to replace him over the AI's.

The year is 2020.

Theresa May has just submitted her latest offer for an EU "divorce" payment, Donald Trump is preparing a fresh election bid with a strategy of blaming everything on the catastrophic regime of the last 4 years, Mark McCall has now hit peak Sean Dyche and by this stage Owen Farrell is literally walking on water. Everyone still calls him boring and limited. Clive Woodward's vocabulary has atrophied to the words "coach", "was", "2003", "when", "I", "in" and as a result can now only get work on channel 5.

England, as world cup holders, are gearing up for the 6N in a bid to win an unprecedented 4 titles in a row. Dylan Hartley is reinstalled as captain and Eddie Jones has signed up for 4 more years promising that the next coach of England will be an English coach.

Meanwhile beshocked is still posting on 606v2 bemoaning Eddie Jones' decisions and saying "as long as Jones' England are winning his questionable selections will not be questioned".

And probably a few mentions of Jamie George too.

A bit harsh on beshocked there. I am an Irishman so a neutral in this but I understand many of the points he is making.

It's a matter of what's best for the team in he short and long term. I think currently hartley is he form English hooker anyway and the big plus point from george is his work with ball in hand. Given its very likely to be those 2 for the AIs to me it makes sense to play to Georges major strength and bring him on when he is able to exploit that more.

I think there's some more questions for the pack tbh. Haskell for me has been underwhelming as others are now coming to the fore. Do you make that change with vunipola out though? The others are both props. I think Cole is on the slide and sinckler to me offers massively more in the loose but also to.me looks like he's better in the scrum.

The final one is our 3 loose heads. As above I think Marler is the best guy in the scrum hardly a slouch in the loose either but....We have vunipola and genge. Both monsters in the loose both good in the set pieces but not quite up there. Can you really drop vunipola for genge. Should we drop Marler out altogether. Is thinking about changes to the entire front row suicide?

I'd stick with Hartley and Cole as starters, George and Sinks to add impact.

George didn't show us anything we didn't really know about him already on the Lions tour. He's a decent starter but a better impact sub. Hartley's place to lose still imo.

eirebilly wrote:A bit harsh on beshocked there. I am an Irishman so a neutral in this but I understand many of the points he is making.

It was really a bit of playful banter. Beshocked is like a dog with a bone but i don't entirely disagree at all.

I share Beshocked's view that George is the superior player, and whilst I don't share his view that Hartley's captaincy is overrated, I can appreciate why he and some others would like to see George given a run.

no 7 & 1/2

Yes a fresh approach is needed.

Now perhaps on form, Hartley should start but form has been irrelevant to Jones in the past.

My point is for Jones - certain players have spots set in stone - some warranted,some not.

cascough I do keep banging on about it. That's true but I still believe evolution but not necessarily revolution is necessary.

I would take out Haskell too personally.

I would also be against seeing Ford-Farrell-Slade. Jones IMO has to pick only 2 of them.

I know there has been a shift towards 2 playmakers in backlines - not just England, but Saracens, Exeter and Wasps for example - obviously Wasps didn't have that vs Exeter with Cipriani injured.

Having more playmaker approach seems to be the in trend.

Even see that approach with Leicester having Toomua and Ford.


Quins suffered quite badly vs Leicester IMO because they lost their primary playmaker, Smith and there was no one who stepped up.

Why do you think change is required now though beshocked and how far do you go with it. As I suggested there's an argument to be had for 4 or 5 changes in the pack alone. How do you go about that? And you're now arguing past or future form above current?

This AIs is not the toughest fixture list. Should be plenty of opportunity for some changes.

How far, well that's a difficult one. Need to pick a team that will win but evolve and continue to build towards Japan and also NZ test.

I am not arguing past or future form over current.

I am saying form hasn't mattered to Jones in regards to certain players.

I'd like to see at least one change in the backrow - that means no Haskell, likely partnering Robshaw and Hughes with someone new at 7.

2nd row I'd probably stick with Lawes-Itoje but I would probably experiment a bit more vs Samoa.

In the backline I'd like to see someone else tried at 15 though don't know who is available.

I want George to start at least one game. When you have 3 tests, you don't need to pick the same starting XV in every game.

Hartley either starts or is nowhere. He's not a good bench option in my eyes.

Hasn't Jones already said that he will not be selecting all the lions for the AI's to give them a rest.

I think a large proportion of the squad will come from the Summer squad.

2nd row has been Launchbury and Lawes rather than Itoje as well. I think it's a much easier discussion for hooker if LCD is fit...

I still think sinckler s forms for lions and genge s in the prem does deserve recognition. Much harder for genge.