England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

At some point in the summer, Eddie Jones will announce his initial EPS. He has been talking about the difficulty he faces trying to whittle it down to that number and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. Who would be in your EPS?

As a reminder:

The deal with PRL allows Eddie Jones to name a 45 man squad. the clubs get money for players contributed, Jones can call on them for an agreed amount of training camps and England can (to a degree) manage their workload. Jones is allowed to make a number of changes to this half way through the season. Separate 33 man training squads are announced prior to the AIs and the 6Ns - these squads are NOT restricted to players in the EPS.

Last Seasons EPS members (Bold in Both, Italics added on 31st December, normal font dropped from squad):

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Sam Jones (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Dan Robson (Wasps)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Exiledinborders wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:..I suspect that Manu must be on last chance saloon...

He's only 26. Even if Jones decides not to use him, then he'll still only be 28 when the next England manager is appointed. That's two years younger than Chris Ashton and Nick Abendanon are now, and six years younger than David Strettle. It's more likely that fitness will be the real limit on Manu's career.

The main limit is that the game has moved on in the last year or so. He just does not have the skill levels or pace of the alternatives. I hope he stays fit and can learn to be less of a tit because Leicester deserve some payback but I suspect he will only be a good club player and a fringe international.

Based on?

The game hasn't really changed in the last 2 years really IMO.

Personally i don't consider JJ to be anymore skillful than Manu or particularly quicker than him. He is more reliable than Manu esp in defence though.
Same with T'eo.
Daly is certainly more skillful and quicker but is also being played on the wing.

Who else is there?

mikey_dragon wrote:A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

Not that it matters now... but I found out the score recently, and Wales vs England was played yesterday.

mikey_dragon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

Not that it matters now... but I found out the score recently, and Wales vs England was played yesterday.

Very generous of you not to mention the score which I have now looked up. Wales won 14-12 with a conversion the difference.

On the England Rugby website they are quoting an England player called Cameron Redpath. I assume that with that name if he does go on to play international rugby when he's older it won't be wearing white...

England were 14-0 down at half time

Redpath is meant to be a real talent, but think you're on the right lines lost

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

Not that it matters now... but I found out the score recently, and Wales vs England was played yesterday.

Very generous of you not to mention the score which I have now looked up. Wales won 14-12 with a conversion the difference.

On the England Rugby website they are quoting an England player called Cameron Redpath. I assume that with that name if he does go on to play international rugby when he's older it won't be wearing white...

Although it is indeed Bryan's son, he has pledged his allegiance to England.

I'm not entirely sure of how the system works, perhaps he could change allegiance later, but it doesn't seem he'd be interested.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

Not that it matters now... but I found out the score recently, and Wales vs England was played yesterday.

Very generous of you not to mention the score which I have now looked up. Wales won 14-12 with a conversion the difference.

On the England Rugby website they are quoting an England player called Cameron Redpath. I assume that with that name if he does go on to play international rugby when he's older it won't be wearing white...

Yeah England had a convincing win over France.
We've had a few players come in and out of the team this year, so they must be decent. It's about time because I think we've been slacking at this level. Who else would/could Redpath play for?

Bryan Redpath is his dad, so Scotland!

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:A bit off topic as academy related, but how did England U18s go in their win over France U18s? Wales are up next - we just beat SA 30-28, so either we're a bit better this year or SA are a lot worse. They've been the best in this competition in the last couple of seasons.

Not that it matters now... but I found out the score recently, and Wales vs England was played yesterday.

Very generous of you not to mention the score which I have now looked up. Wales won 14-12 with a conversion the difference.

On the England Rugby website they are quoting an England player called Cameron Redpath. I assume that with that name if he does go on to play international rugby when he's older it won't be wearing white...

Yeah England had a convincing win over France.
We've had a few players come in and out of the team this year, so they must be decent. It's about time because I think we've been slacking at this level. Who else would/could Redpath play for?

See above. Could be the same situation as we had with Moriaty, with Redpath playing U20's for England then going North of the border if he's good enough for internationals and there are too many England players in the way to the England 15. At least he would have more of a realistic claim for a Scotland cap than Heathcote.

Well I didn't even know Redpath was Scottish, thought he was from Gloucester...

I do often wonder why players like Moriarty, (possibly)Redpath etc dont just play for Wales, Scotland etc instead of taking up spots that other English lads could be filling.  Especially when the likes of Moriarty have no intention of playing for England at senior level.

From what I read (haven't been able to catch the games) Wales were good value for the win, so well done to them.

As others have said, I will be amazed if Redpath plays for England at senior level, it has a touch of the Ross Moriarty about it (not that I blame either of them). There are a few in the England team that may eventually turn out for Scotland; Fraser Dingwall and Fraser Strachan (who'd have thought with names like that?) to name two. I read that the Scots are stepping up their search for qualified players in England, so I guess we will just have to get used to this...

England seem to have the better academies. I imagine young players are doing what they feel is best to get noticed therefore get a better chance of becoming a pro player. It doesn't harm England either, your player pool is too large.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I do often wonder why players like Moriarty, (possibly)Redpath etc dont just play for Wales, Scotland etc instead of taking up spots that other English lads could be filling.  Especially when the likes of Moriarty have no intention of playing for England at senior level.

Given that Redpath is 17 and I think his dad moved to England in 2000 to play for Sale, there's a good chance that Redpath Jr was born here and has lived here all his life. Probably a genuine decision for him to make long term.

Saw most of the game, which was a pretty scrappy affair in the rain. England had plenty of early territory and possession in the first half, but turning down 3 pointers and going for the corner didn't work out for them (lineout was a bit of a mess). Wales scored a couple of converted tries, but England came back strong in the final quarter only to miss out with the final conversion going the wrong side of the post at the death.

8s on both sides stood out (Basham and Willis iirc). Redpath went okay, and the reserve hooker (Capon) came on to finish both the final tries strongly from close range.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/young-gun/28351/young-gun-cameron-redpath-england-u18s-centre/

“He is proud of me playing for England. At the moment it’s all about developing as much and as quickly as I can and England gives me a great opportunity in that sense.

“I live in England, go to school in England and play my academy in England with Sale. Everything I do is in England so it made sense to decide to play for England.

“He came watch me play against Scotland and people were having little digs at him with me playing for England. Not everyone sees it from our point of view so it can be hard to hear but we just get on with it and I make sure I do my best to keep improving.

Fair play to him

Squad development appears to be the plan for the autumn tests with the Lion returnees getting back for the 6N. Sounds like a good idea that will protect the talent. It will be exciting to see how the new season unfolds and how the 'youngsters' get on with the added scrutiny? Who else will shine and who will diminish?
Its a brave decision to recalibrate the squad and does not come without risk, however it is the right decision as we attempt to challenge the AB's for WC winning success.

And: how will we maintain some balance if England lose a test?

Like I say its brave and comes with risk but now is the time for players to be challenged and found out if necessary. Hopefully a win win for our chances even if we lose there can be real development opportunities.

Poorfour wrote:And: how will we maintain some balance if England lose a test?

Keep picking him regardless?

Depends on whether jones picks the guy the relevant poster wants poorfour. If he does the guy deserves more chances if not it was clearly a mistake!

A good thing is I don't think Jones cares in the slightest what we think and he doesn't seem to care too much about what the press or ex players and commentators say.  He will do what he thinks is best.  Part of it may be he knows he will walk away from England in a couple of years, so won't have to put up with the snipping and bitching like Lancaster, Johnson, SCW, etc.

I noticed that Brad Sheilds may be available for England:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11912208

Plenty of shrieking from the NZ Herald and others that we are trying to poach him, but from what I can see it is all coming from the player himself.  It seems a little arrogant to assume that he would walk into the England squad too.

Ah I know he has English parents, but this is getting beyond a joke now. Has he ever set foot in England?

EDIT:
And I really don't like this attitude..."he's tried for the AB's cant make it so he'll try out for England now." Pah!!

This is the side of Jones that is obviously a bit more controversial.

We wants to win - so he'll pick the players he think will do that. Discipline,age and how "English" they are don't matter to him.

Is residency more important than whether you qualify through parents or relatives?

Is where you are born more important?

Belonging to a certain area can be complicated.

I think if you have a connection with an area whether it's residency, through relatives, then you a good reason to represent a country.

In this circumstance Brad Shields qualifies through relatives.

The whole question of qualification for countries is thrown open by having 7s in the Olympics. Toby Flood can now qualify for Germany if he plays 7s for them - so I suspect we will see a lot more of people changing who they play for over time.

Shields's interest seems a bit Failed In New Zealand, Try England, but he wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last.

Fair enough if he wants a crack but bit of a misnomer to say England are poaching.

Hopefully just mutterings and nothing comes of it....and we can focus on all the youngsters we have coming through.

I don't know that much about the fella, looking at his stats (6ft 4in & 17st 4lb) would put him at blindside or no.8. He's got plenty of competition in both those positions with Chris Robshaw, James Haskell, Mark Wilson, Nathan Hughes and Billy Vunipola or able to cover them.

He'll be going into a pack of other fringe players like Mike Williams, Tom Wood, Callum Clarke, Same Jones, Jack Clifford, Ben Morgan and James Chisholm.

I don't like the assumption that just because he was somewhere near the fringes of the All Blacks he will walk into the England squad. It hasn't exactly worked out like that for Matt Symons has it?

I see James Haskell is putting out the fighting talk aswell about his positions for both England and Wasps...he needs to find the form of the Aussie tour I think...
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41046941


And Ben Youngs jeeing up Manu Tuilagi for this season....
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41083557

Cumbrian wrote:I don't know that much about the fella, looking at his stats (6ft 4in & 17st 4lb) would put him at blindside or no.8.  He's got plenty of competition in both those positions with Chris Robshaw, James Haskell, Mark Wilson, Nathan Hughes and Billy Vunipola or able to cover them.  

He'll be going into a pack of other fringe players like Mike Williams, Tom Wood, Callum Clarke, Same Jones, Jack Clifford, Ben Morgan and James Chisholm.

I don't like the assumption that just because he was somewhere near the fringes of the All Blacks he will walk into the England squad.  It hasn't exactly worked out like that for Matt Symons has it?

I think theres a few there who will be interesting to watch.
Clifford - Needs a monstrous season showing his pace and skills from the back row...otherwise I think he'll be dropped...
Chisholm - Seemingly a more physical player that Jones likes...can he push on again this season?
Clark - His move to Saracens could be a great and shrewd move for both player and club, but despite talking him up several weeks back I just don't see him challenging for an England place now, unless his performances are simply breathtaking.
Wood - That ship has sailed
Williams - That ship has sailed.
Sam Jones - Unlucky with his injury, needs to come back in the form he was in before the injury.

Poorfour wrote:The whole question of qualification for countries is thrown open by having 7s in the Olympics. Toby Flood can now qualify for Germany if he plays 7s for them - so I suspect we will see a lot more of people changing who they play for over time.

The 7s loophole is probably not as large as it seems. You need to have a passport for the country you want to represent in the Olympics, and not all players are qualified on that ground. On top of that, sevens is specialized, so older players wanting to make the switch are unlikely to be great assets for the sevens teams of even low-ranked nations.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The whole question of qualification for countries is thrown open by having 7s in the Olympics. Toby Flood can now qualify for Germany if he plays 7s for them - so I suspect we will see a lot more of people changing who they play for over time.

The 7s loophole is probably not as large as it seems. You need to have a passport for the country you want to represent in the Olympics, and not all players are qualified on that ground. On top of that, sevens is specialized, so older players wanting to make the switch are unlikely to be great assets for the sevens teams of even low-ranked nations.

For the for the chance to get a player like Toby Flood playing for their senior 15 side I think its something Germany would do in an instant! Whilst I do think this will be limited, this needs to be managed properly to avoid becoming a farcical situation.

I believe that a player also has to prove that they are 'suitable' for sevens and that it isn't just a cynical move to get a cap. So you're not going to get many tight 5 forwards swapping countries this way.

Dunno like...someone like Mako has better handling than most backs

It could mean players like Magnus Lund could try to get in the Norway team etc...

Not sure how many others. Maybe some SH players with European ancestry

In one way I don't mind it, as it shows these lower divisions teams the standards they need to meet and can ultimately only be good for rugby, however I don't want it to become a farce either with players just chopping left right and centre.

Magnus Lund, now that's a blast from the past

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dunno like...someone like Mako has better handling than most backs

Quins put Nick Easter in their squad for one of the last Middlesex Sevens tournaments a few years back. He couldn't cover enough ground defensively, but it didn't matter because every time they needed a try they just got into the 22, gave him the ball and watched him steamroller the lightweights between him and the tryline.

It was hilarious, and they probably would have won the thing outright had Danny Care not picked up (as was his habit at the time) a stupid yellow card.

Mako or Sinckler would have a similar impact, I imagine.

GeordieFalcon wrote:...For the for the chance to get a player like Toby Flood playing for their senior 15 side I think its something Germany would do in an instant!...

Germany is an ambitious rugby team. They looked set for World Sevens Series qualification in Hong Kong this year but lost in the decider to Spain.

That means they cannot make Toby Flood eligible for their 15s squad by playing him in a World Series round, as they won't be participating. The only designated Olympic events they will play is the 2019 European qualifier or the later all-region last chance qualifier.

Germany will be keen as mustard to get to the Olympics through that route - Spain did so and went to Rio - so it's not clear cut that they would use up a key squad space to accommodate a 34 year old Toby Flood, especially since he will spend the entire 2018/19 season playing 15s.

Surely he'd be very useful to have in and around the squad too bough, and he'd raise the status of the game in Germany.

yappysnap wrote:Surely he'd be very useful to have in and around the squad too bough, and he'd raise the status of the game in Germany.

Squad limits in sevens are very tight. You need every, man because players get exhausted. If Germany played on the World Sevens circuit, it probably wouldn't have been difficult to sneak him in to the squad for one round. However the only events Germany have to establish his 15s eligibility are do-or-die sevens qualifiers.

If Flood was an experienced sevens playmaker, then he'd be an asset even at 34. Clemens von Grumbkow is 34, and plays for Germany in 15s and 7s, but he's spent his whole career doing that. Flood would be a fish out of water because he wouldn't have time to adjust.

The question Germany will face is whether it's worth risking a chance at Olympic qualification just to get a player available for the 15s side. They would also have to convince the Regulations Committee that Flood was worth a place in the sevens team.

Is everyone fighting a spot fit? Even Manu appears to be....

Are people like Sam jones recovered etc?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is everyone fighting a spot fit? Even Manu appears to be....

Are people like Sam jones recovered etc?

Billy Vunipola will miss the start of the season but Saracens say he'll be around for the Autumn Internationals.

Well that must be a first....although the season starts tomorrow so lets see what damage comes about....

Marcus Smith getting a lot of touting to be capped by the end of the season before he even starts for Quins

Yeah I noticed that...about as believable as Flood putting on the Germany shirt.

The Smith hype train is starting, can't wait for Barnes to get in on it...

There is a lot of people for him to leapfrog if that's the case......must have been quite impressive in training though!
Cant see him jumping Faz, Ford for a while (barring inj crisis - even then there is still the Slade option).

More likely that he skips a year and has a decent U20s campaign and gets a bundle of prem experience when given the chance.

Could Toby Flood come back in to reckoning with a top class season for us? Or has that ship well and truly sailed?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is everyone fighting a spot fit? Even Manu appears to be....

Are people like Sam jones recovered etc?

Sam Jones should be back playing this month Geordie.

I see the Marcus Smith hype train has pulled into the station. Ugo Monye describing him as the best young player he has seen (or something like that). Plenty of media reports calling him a wonderkid and all that too.

Well I got my first proper look at him and I must say he reminds me of a young Danny Cipriani. He challenges the line a lot more than most English stand offs and he brings players into the game.

Some of his passing left a lot to be desired and he didn't seem to control the game particularly well (to be expected from an 18 year old). On the other hand his confidence did shine through. Overall I thought there was potential but talk of an England call up seem ridiculously premature.

It is odd, aside from Eddie picking him I don't understand the sudden escalation in hype towards an England cap. I could understand it if it was a few years ago and we were asking Wilkinson to put in one more performance or wheeling Andy Goode out, but we're in a pretty good place for fly halves at the moment and don't need to rush anyone in IMO.