England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So what are we gonna start doing? Fine/suspend players everytime they swear? If so there will be nobody left to play the game! Ludicrous decision from the ICC.

[alfie]

Rabada might be a little unlucky but as Goose points out he wasn't banned for this offence ...it was just the last straw after previous : he can hardly say he wasn't warned !

As to this game this session will be big - England have the advantage but need to get wickets early - and use the new ball when it arrives . De Kock is the sort of player who could take the advantage away quickly if he gets settled.

[guildfordbat]

Brilliant - back in and been watching for 10 minutes, seen a couple of wickets!  Two very good catches in their own way. Stokes' take was easy in the end but I particularly liked how he kept his position and composure after the ball came off Bairstow.

[Gooseberry]

Olly ...its not every time they swear, this wasnt his first offence. Hes built up enough discplinary points to get a sanction.
And its not jusy any swearing. This wasnt an "oh gosh i wish id done that better" this was targetted agression directed at an opposition player, not even in response to any provocation. Instead of celebrating the wicket he chose to address a foul mouthed outburst at the player. If there had been a reaction back youd be looking at two players in trouble ....surely its better to punish those who regulalry start ( or try to start) confrontations to avoid brawls rather than waiting for them to happen and getting all upset about it?

Theres been a rise in unseemly confrontations in all forms and its not doing the game any good. Its nearly derailed a couple of tours and become very personal between teams and indivduals. Not to mention harming the image of the game for broadcasters and sponsors.
I dont have an issue with players being expected to show a modicum of self control and concentrate on the battle in the game rather than verbals and handbags.

[alfie]

Annoying little partnership developing here...not sure I'd have opened with Dawson and Wood after lunch : they've been perhaps the least threatening bowlers.

Want to keep this lead the right side of a hundred...

[alfie]

Amazing call to review that ! I thought it was a daft idea but it gets Dawson the wicket !

Whose idea ? Root ? Bairstow ? Whoever - it was brilliant

[alfie]

Philander keeping SA ticking...Wood seems to be struggling a bit and is going for a few. Think I'd have Anderson or Broad back as this lead is shrinking...

[alfie]

After a slow patch (SA spinners doing a good job of keeping a lid on the run rate) Morkel gets Jennings ...rather a soft dismissal I thought.

England seem a bit becalmed at the moment , though in a strong position. Ballance has a chance now - though I think there was a case for Root to have come in and try to get things moving ...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England in a good spot here - try and get that lead to 300 by lunch with as many wickets in hand and go after the attack after lunch and declare just after tea with a lead of 450-500 I reckon

[sirfredperry]

Slow going by England's batsmen yesterday. Doubt whether England's two spinners operating in tandem would have kept the runs down as much. Cook looked horribly out of form. Suggests bowling he's faced in County Championship has been comparatively poor, as he he's made a mountain of runs for Essex.
   Reckon if England had had an established other opener he would have got on with it a bit more. But Jennings is fighting for his place. 
   Still not sure what Ballance is doing in the team. If they thought he was Test class they should not have dropped him the first time. Then they bought him back and then dropped him again. Now they've bought him back again. Shades of the 1980s and 90s.
   I would play Bairstow as a batsman and bring in another wicketkeeper (Buttler, Foakes?).

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Cook gone - I'm kind of happy with that as I think there's a pitch to play on here and they could be going faster.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Could not have been more wrong

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Could not have been more wrong

I hope your local team aren't asking you whether to bat or bowl first on a Saturday

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I just wanted them to try and inject some pace, that's all, I swear! Gosh darn it, I wanted the new England, but the new England are still England.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I just wanted them to try and inject some pace, that's all, I swear! Gosh darn it, I wanted the new England, but the new England are still England.

They've got enough already - when Rabada pitches one halfway down on middle stump and it clatters Stokes on his shins, 250 is a huge score...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Exactly, that's why I wanted them to get on with it. Go hard and fast cos this score is fine. They had two who were set and could do some scoring, but now that chance is gone and they will want the safety first approach to get another 100

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Exactly, that's why I wanted them to get on with it. Go hard and fast cos this score is fine. They had two who were set and could do some scoring, but now that chance is gone and they will want the safety first approach to get another 100

Taking the game deeper so the pitch deteriorates more also not a bad ploy I'd suggest...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Probably not, but terribly dull and less disheartening for the opposition.

Oh that is appalling fielding...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

There is no grounds to pick Adil Rashid as a second spinner in England in 99% of occasions IMO. He isn't good enough to bat 8 and he will be too expensive with the ball. Dawson is a better bat and can probably keep it tighter in the low amount of overs he will be expected to bowl.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Loads of us calling it all wrong

[alfie]

Well now : I did think last night they might be going a little slowly...but withheld judgement in case it really was a case of a seriously difficult pitch for stroke play. I think that session settled that argument !
Bairstow being dropped - a sitter by Philander - may prove very significant as another thirty or so might be handy ; though I suspect England have enough barring a miracle innings from someone for SA .

Have to give SA credit though : with injury , situation etc they might easily have folded up but they've fought hard ; first to dry up the runs with some clever field placings last night and today taking wickets through consistent pressure. Making it a real contest

Feel a bit for Dawson - a tricky ball to cop first up.

[JDizzle]

There is no grounds to pick Adil Rashid as a second spinner in England in 99% of occasions IMO. He isn't good enough to bat 8 and he will be too expensive with the ball. Dawson is a better bat and can probably keep it tighter in the low amount of overs he will be expected to bowl.

Haha. I still stand by it! He's just not seen that. Just wait for the incoming 7fer...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Wood went out there and did what I was looking for!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

There is no grounds to pick Adil Rashid as a second spinner in England in 99% of occasions IMO. He isn't good enough to bat 8 and he will be too expensive with the ball. Dawson is a better bat and can probably keep it tighter in the low amount of overs he will be expected to bowl.

Haha. I still stand by it! He's just not seen that. Just wait for the incoming 7fer...

I am buzzing for Moeen and Dawson to run through them.

On a seperate note...umpire Ravi is atrocious. Talk about a trigger finger...

[LivinginItaly]

Having seen the first part of South Africa's second innings, and their difficulties in scoring, it almost seems like Cook's patient 60 was actually a very good effort.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Having seen the first part of South Africa's second innings, and their difficulties in scoring, it almost seems like Cook's patient 60 was actually a very good effort.

Cook, Jennings and Ballance all with useful knocks more in the sense of time,than runs. Allowing the pitch to deteriorate by taking the game deep

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think it doesn't matter what speed they went at!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Moeen is a truly shocking spinner compared to the greats like Swann Laker etc. No idea how he's blagged 100 wickets

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Blagged em, that's the answer. He's no Ashley Giles

[Dolphin Ziggler]

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Moeen is a truly shocking spinner compared to the greats like Swann Laker etc. No idea how he's blagged 100 wickets

The state of this take

[Mat]

Another average contribution from Moeen I see.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bayliss saying in an interview with Ian Ward that Dawson played as the main spinner, with Moeen as the second spinner.

I'd really really hope that wasn't the case. Even Jimbo,the most ardent of Dawson fan, surely doesn't believe he should be a main spinner in tests.

[LivinginItaly]

Having seen the first part of South Africa's second innings, and their difficulties in scoring, it almost seems like Cook's patient 60 was actually a very good effort.

Cook, Jennings and Ballance all with useful knocks more in the sense of time,than runs. Allowing the pitch to deteriorate by taking the game deep

I know, my comment was sarcastic given the number of comments on here and on social media criticising their slow progress.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think there was evidence that they could have freed their hands a bit, and that if anyone was in the position to it was them two. Not to say it wasn't a cracking effort, their approach wasn't to dominate and it certainly meant they had to be extremely watchful.

Bit of a balance really, cos the game would have had to go deeper were there more runs on the board, so not sure time is so easily measured there. As it was, South Africa did nothing, but considering even a novice like I could see they were set to post a score that SA would have had to basically excel hugely to get, there was scope for trying to play on the attack. And I stress that I said scope, not a need.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Moeen is a truly shocking spinner compared to the greats like Swann Laker etc. No idea how he's blagged 100 wickets

The state of this take

I've seen all the top English spinners since the war. I'll tell you know Moeen isn't in any of their leagues. That's a fact

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Blagged em, that's the answer. He's no Ashley Giles

Always had big respect for 'the King of Spain'. Not the most gifted but a quality team player

[Mad for Chelsea]

Morning all.

A thumping win for England and a fine start to Root's captaincy. Lots to be happy about, with everyone in the team contributing in some way (albeit small contributions from Jennings, Ballance and Wood). I quite like the balance of England's side: having four seamers means there isn't an immediate let-up when the opening bowlers have finished their spells on greener pitches, while the two spin options takes away some of the pressure from Moeen IMO. England are fortunate that two of their bowling options are good enough to make the side as specialist batsmen, so this allows them to go with this formula.

SA have issues. Only playing four bowlers makes them look a tad short on bowling options, as witnessed on the first afternoon/evening when the seamers, who'd already bowled a fair bit, had to come back towards the end of the day. Philander doesn't strike me as the fittest of cricketers in any case*, and they could really do with a fourth seamer option. Judging by the little I saw of him, De Bruyn isn't it. However, they won't want to weaken the batting too much (e.g. by picking Morris at 7) because they have obvious issues there too.

I have a lot of respect for Elgar as a batsman, but he's never going to be a world beater. He's now going through his upteenth opening partner in quick succession (at least three in the last two series against England, and I think there's been one more in between), and Kuhn didn't look that great to me here, albeit he deserves a decent shot. Amla's not in great form, but should come good. Duminy's test record is painfully mediocre, having had plenty of chances, so not sure he's the answer at four. Bavuma I think is a cracking player, as is De Kock, but they can't keep asking those two to bail out the top order time and again.

Then there's the general lacklustre attitude they've shown on this (prolonged) tour. The fielding has been the worst I've ever seen from a South African team, and it carried into this Test match. One of the commentators said this was also the case in their fielding warm-ups, so there might be a real issue there. The two chances they missed off Root were tricky, but at this level should really have been taken, and Philander's drop off Bairstow was just dreadful. That's before you even get to the no-balls...

Onto England. Like I said, the balance seems pretty good. Jennings and Ballance could do with some bigger runs, but their second innings knocks were useful. I know England got some stick for their slow going, but you could see the pitch was getting harder and harder to bat on, so I thought it was a sensible approach. Overall they out-batted, out-bowled, and out-fielded SA. A word of praise for Bairstow's keeping, which I thought was very good. He still doesn't quite get the "spring" in his keeping to the pace bowlers that I'd like to see, but he's improved his footwork massively, it's much more dynamic and precise, as exemplified by his fine catch of Kuhn in the second innings. Never easy when the ball's keeping so low, and he took that one really well. He also took some good catches standing up to the spinners, including a really excellent one off Rabada in the first innings.

Finally, over-rates and others. Pleased to see I'm no longer the only one banging on about these . It could easily be fixed by simply doing something about it beyond fines (and the occasional one-match ban). Penalise a team say five runs for every over under the 15 per hour rate, and teams would bowl their overs on time (England would have got fifty runs extra on day one, since SA had bowled 80 overs at 6). Make reasonable allowances for e.g. the physio coming on to treat an injury, etc., but otherwise no excuses. Mike always said his sides could get through the overs (they're much stricter at lower levels, and if they didn't they'd lose runs/overs) because they practised it. I'm not surprised by SA TBH, in the ODI series earlier they were routinely half an hour behind the rate. Re Rabada's ban, I don't have a problem with the "penalty point" (or whatever they call it) being issued here. Passion is fine, but there's a line, and he crossed it. It was unnecessary, and as Goose says it goes on a bit too much nowadays. However, the three points he incurred for "making contact with an opposition batsman" in a previous game seem, on the video evidence I've seen, frankly ridiculous. Still, knowing he was one misdemeanour away from a ban, he should have been more careful, so little sympathy on my side.

*Oddly, when he's batting, Philander looks physically quite sharp, he certainly runs well between the wickets.

[guildfordbat]

Moeen is a truly shocking spinner compared to the greats like Swann Laker etc. No idea how he's blagged 100 wickets

The state of this take

I've seen all the top English spinners since the war. I'll tell you know Moeen isn't in any of their leagues. That's a fact

I would guess you're talking about since the Syrian Civil War of 2011. You come across as being about fourteen.

[alfie]

The Philander drop was extraordinary for an International cricketer. However perhaps we should remember that just a few hours earlier he had been scanned to see if his hand was broken and even though it wasn't , the considerable bruising might just have affected his catching - or the lack of it

SA fielding overall was poor , agreed. The Root misses on day one were arguably the turning point of the entire match : from the time Stokes and Root had forged their partnership it was actually all one way traffic : despite understandable fears by home team fans at times that something "might" go wrong it never really did. (SA bowlers were tired late Thursday and Root and Moeen were always more likely than not to succeed. Always on the cards that one of the tail would wag the score over 400. SA never really looked like matching that - and as we saw at the end it hardly mattered what England made in the third innings as the fourth was always going to be a struggle)
OK I know it wasn't as simple as that but I am sure the fluctuating odds will have reflected the above outline - and the bookies don't usually lose.

[alfie]

I certainly wouldn't rate Moeen alongside Laker , Underwood or Swann. But his record deserves a lot more respect than it tends to receive in most circles. Fair to say he's not been consistent ; but perhaps this is partly a function of his role being a little ill-defined at times ?
Bayliss suggests he likes the pressure release of not being tagged as the main spinner : I rather hope that doesn't mean we have to pick Dawson every time just for his psychological well being
But I do have hopes that this display may help his confidence to the extent that he starts to succeed a bit more regularly in future. I do not , by the way , condemn him for failing to skittle India on their own pitches last year : he is hardly alone in struggling to do so ! I fancy he may do a little better next time he travels to that part of the world...
On Dawson : forget his batting. Second innings was a bit flukey and even top order bats make pairs now and again. His bowling on day two was ordinary ; but it got better and I think he proved thatfor this match his selection was the right call. Whether he should stay in the team for matches on less dry and low surfaces is something about which I have some reservations. He is picked again for Trent Bridge : do they know something about the pitch already ? It appears he'll play as they surely won't want five seamers ; ask me again after the match !
Agree with mfc re Bairstow : even his critics (a few on here , I recall) must admit his keeping has improved a lot. His work up to the stumps was excellent on a sometimes tricky surface - I think he learned a lot in India. He will never be a Knott or an Evans ; but he just might make a Prior...

Jury still out on Ballance (and Jennings I guess) but that second innings was handy. Not sure Wood is 100% at present but glad to see Broad and Anderson seemed fully fit again. TRJ might conceivably be "rotated" in at some point ?

And a good start for Root with the armband ...he didn't get everythingright , I think ; but he made a lot of good choices , showed calmness and energy - and got the result ! Good enough

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

South Africa are far too negative with team selection. Heino Kuhn, a veteran 33yo, looked to have a terrible technique for an opening batsman. And according to his career numbers he's actually a makeshift opener. JP Duminy is absolutely terrible, he's lived off that 160 against Australia for nearly a decade.

For south Africa to be half competitive they need 5 bowlers. Sometimes you have to risk defeat to gain a victory.

Elgar
Amla
Du Plessis
De Kock
Bavuma
De Buryn
Morris
Philander
Maharaj
Olivier
Morkel

Amla has basically been opening as they never get a decent opening partnership. De Kock is wasted a 6/7. Come in earlier add the impetus that de Villiers used to offer. Morris bowled pretty fast in the limited overs format, adds some aggression.

[alfie]

That looks a reasonable team...I actually think Morris does offer a bit with ball and bat. Agree they need a bit more bowling - especially if the TB pitch is not particularly bowler friendly this year.
Just not sure they'll be keen to have Amla open. And I think four might be a little too high for the keeper : OK on day one ; maybe less so late day two after 130 overs in the field , for example.

Selection will be "interesting". But I never underestimate SA , especially after they've just suffered a heavy loss...

[Galted]

Moeen is a truly shocking spinner compared to the greats like Swann Laker etc. No idea how he's blagged 100 wickets

The state of this take

I've seen all the top English spinners since the war. I'll tell you know Moeen isn't in any of their leagues. That's a fact

I would guess you're talking about since the Syrian Civil War of 2011. You come across as being about fourteen.

[Gooseberry]

Its moeens first reallu effective bowling performance at home since his debut series, and he was getting slated for being rubbish then. I dint see much has changed off the back of this gsme.other than that hes made himself nigh on impossible to drop for the medium term.
The absence of a credible alternative as the main spinner is one thing. That hes also in the top four performing batsmen for england over the last year or so is another. I find it hard to believe hes actually one of the best but he does keep scoring more runs than many of the specialist bats bought in.
As much as I want to see england move on from being a team of all rounders lacking really top notch individual role specialists as things i have to begrudgingly admit hes made himslef seem indispenable.
As for Dawson if hes not even our best spinner and cant bat eithet whats he doing there. Ok Lords turned out to be very helpful to the spinners and as someone above said the decision to include him seems right with that knowledge despite his own impact being minimal.
Looking forward we really surely have to be picking higher quality players.

[jimbohammers]

Dawson can bat he just had a bad game. He proved he can bat at this level when he made his debut in India.

[dummy_half]

Its moeens first reallu effective bowling performance at home since his debut series, and he was getting slated for being rubbish then.  I dint see much has changed off the back of this gsme.other than that hes made himself nigh on impossible to drop for the medium term.
The absence of a credible alternative as the main spinner is one thing.  That hes also in the top four performing batsmen for england over the last year or so is another.  I find it hard to believe hes actually one of the best but he does keep scoring more runs than many of the specialist bats bought in.
As much as I want to see england move on from being a team of all rounders lacking really top notch individual role specialists as things i have to begrudgingly admit hes made himslef seem indispenable.
As for Dawson if hes not even our best spinner and cant bat eithet whats he doing there. Ok Lords turned out to be very helpful to the spinners and as someone above said the decision to include him seems right with that knowledge despite his own impact being minimal.
Looking forward we really surely have to be picking higher quality players.

Two things:
1 - Moeen would be there or thereabouts for the team as a specialist batsman at the moment. Also, all rounders (as long as they are scoring runs) are the key to being able to pick a balanced side.

2 - I'm sure the selectors would pick higher quality players than Dawson if they thought there were any. A case can be made for Rashid as #8 and front line spinner, but he's similar to Moeen in some ways - likely to bowl some good balls but also some filth. Dawson at least is supposed to offer some control of the run rate, and probably deserves a bit more of a chance. It's not as though we have a Warne or Murali hiding in the wings, or even a Swann - back to being like the days of England having to choose their primary spinner between Croft, Giles and Udal...

[kingraf]

It's hard to believe that we came into this tour the #1 ODI side in the world, with a 7-1 record in Tests this season. To be fair, there are things happening behind the scenes which have probably not helped. The neverending AB drama. Domingo still being the coach even though his contract is sorta up, but not really, but he hasn't reapplied, so no one really knows what is happening. Faf's daughter or wife taking ill after birth. Domingo's mother getting into a car accident, and since passing on. Been a long tour this. Then the Rabada ban happened which isn't great. I'm still a little shocked he got a demerit for what he said, given that on the reverse tour Stokes told Bavuma quite audibly, that he was "f.ucking useless" without a demerit, while Ross Taylor called Virat Kohli a bhenchod (or a sister f******) without censure, but thems the apples. Of course this wasn't his first incident, but given the fact that the only other strike against him was a shoulder brush with Dickwella, this is as soft a suspension as I've ever seen. Hopefully the stump mic stays on, because there's no way Stokes goes 15 days of cricket without dropping an F-bomb, and then he gets a suspension. I think. He's only one demerit short himself, and that's the threshold set apparently. Yes I'm bitter.

[kingraf]

It's hard to believe that we came into this tour the #1 ODI side in the world, with a 7-1 record in Tests this season. To be fair, there are things happening behind the scenes which have probably not helped. The neverending AB drama. Domingo still being the coach even though his contract is sorta up, but not really, but he hasn't reapplied, so no one really knows what is happening. Faf's daughter or wife taking ill after birth. Domingo's mother getting into a car accident, and since passing on. Been a long tour this. Then the Rabada ban happened which isn't great. I'm still a little shocked he got a demerit for what he said, given that on the reverse tour Stokes told Bavuma quite audibly, that he was "f.ucking useless" without a demerit, while Ross Taylor called Virat Kohli a bhenchod (or a sister f******) without censure, but thems the apples. Of course this wasn't his first incident, but given the fact that the only other strike against him was a shoulder brush with Dickwella, this is as soft a suspension as I've ever seen. Hopefully the stump mic stays on, because there's no way Stokes goes 15 days of cricket without dropping an F-bomb, and then he gets a suspension. I think. He's only one demerit short himself, and that's the threshold set apparently. Yes I'm bitter.

[Sponsored content]