England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[guildfordbat]

I actually go along with Nathaniel's two cents. It was that thinking which led to Surrey going after Stoneman and, so far at least, he's more than lived up to expectations.

Goose could use the Borthwick signing and his lack of success at the Oval to argue (Goose argue? Never! ) against that. However, there's a view developing that Borthwick's a more scrappy and less fluent batter who is therefore in some ways more suited to battling it out at the Riverside. Surrey and the player were also keen to develop his leg spin. The Oval is definitely a better place than Durham to do that. Shane Warne is meant to be lined up to give Borthwick some coaching soon. I hope that works as Borthwick currently appears a dead loss with the ball.

[msp83]

So after unsurprisingly fluffing his latest mercy chance brought about by an insistant skipper, Garry Ballance has picked up an injury and is out. So who is it going to be? Hearing good things about Mark Stoneman. Checked up his FC record, not bad at all. With Jennings too struggling, they need some solidity at the top.
I understand Haseeb Hameed hasn't been in the greatest of form prior to the series, but the lad has a fabulous temperament, and for some players, the greater the challenge they face, the better would be their response. Hameed showed in India that he is a total class act as a fighter. Perhaps an international recall might give him that bit of extra confidence that would help him to bounce back.
But if there are clearly identified technical issues, those need to be worked upon. But records with the likes of Steven Finn would suggest that the England coaching staff can get it terribly wrong at times on that particular side of things.

[king_carlos]

First issue to sort IMO is the physical and mental demands of asking Bairstow to play as a top 5 batsman and keep wicket. Doing both will have a negative impact on his game, whether sooner or later. If Jonny plays as keeper then he needs to bat at 7. If he plays as a top 5 bastman then find another keeper.

I also feel for Ballance being brought back at number 3 when it's where he failed last time around. I actually think he could have an international future as a middle order batsman but not a number 3. If others (Joe Clarke?) through their hand up long term he may not get back in though.

1.Cook
2.Stoneman
3.Jennings
4.Root (c)
5.Bairstow
6.Stokes
7.Foakes (wk)
8.Moeen
9.Wood
10.Broad
11.Anderson

It's far from perfect but in terms of personnel but that would at least be balanced and offer a structured side to build around.

Similar to TRJ I don't think that Stoneman has what it takes to stand out at test level. His form warrants the chance to prove people wrong in the current circumstances.

Foakes is already a better keeper than Bairstow IMO and as the Lions incumbent keeper would be next in line were Bairstow to play as a specialist batsman - it's a decision that the coaches don't seem interested in though.

[VTR]

msp - Hameed will likely come good but he is not selectable at the moment. That is nothing to do with the England management, he hasn't been able to buy a run in County Cricket this season, and given facing the likes of Morkel, Rabada etc is a massive step up, it's actually good management not to throw him in against them

And as for Finn, the England coaching staff surely can't be blamed for a player that continually loses his way. He is like a modern day Harmison - unplayable one day, unselectable the next. I think a lot of the responsibility for that rests with the player himself

[Corporalhumblebucket]

And as for Finn, the England coaching staff surely can't be blamed for a player that continually loses his way. He is like a modern day Harmison - unplayable one day, unselectable the next. I think a lot of the responsibility for that rests with the player himself

That's not a bad comparison - Harmison if my memory is right - seemed to veer between a match winner and a liability with not much in between.

[Gooseberry]

I disagree that you cant keep and bat in the top 6 ....probably half the top test sides in the last 25 years have had that with many batting top4. Bairstow also only has fringe ivolvement with limited overs ...compared to the likes of stokes the demands on him are light.
But with the continued failure of specilist bats im not averse to the ides of Foakes and Bairstow in the team together.
Foakes is a decent bat and good keeper. As others have said though it doesnt seem to be in the minds of the england set up despite the previous flirtation with buttler and bairstow.


Good point regrding Stonemans county stats but I still hold that hes a player picked on form this season than long term class. Unless we are suggesting that noone noticed his amazing natural ability for the last decade; its not like hes been around the squad or touted before ( like say Robson). More a case of running low on options.

[VTR]

Am not sure about that comment re keepers batting up the order - who are the top sides that had that? Struggling to recall any

I'd recall it the other way, the likes of Healy, Gilchrist, Dhoni, Boucher, Prior generally all batting at 7, and that being a big strength of those teams i.e. even at 5 down there's still a guy coming in who could really play

Someone like Sangakarra did bat up the order but SL have never been a top Test side

[alfie]

Am not sure about that comment re keepers batting up the order - who are the top sides that had that? Struggling to recall any

I'd recall it the other way, the likes of Healy, Gilchrist, Dhoni, Boucher, Prior generally all batting at 7, and that being a big strength of those teams i.e. even at 5 down there's still a guy coming in who could really play

Someone like Sangakarra did bat up the order but SL have never been a top Test side

Indeed. The only other one I can recall is Flower : but Zimbabwe were definitely not a top side

Stewart sometimes batted up the order when keeping . But he had a lot less success doing so than when he didn't keep - and again , it wasn't a very successful time for England...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I just don't think we should have our second best batsman coming in at 7. He has to be at least ahead of Stokes at 6, for me.

[alfie]

Interesting comments above Goose re Stoneman as a long term county player who has never attracted national selection before ...

Can't say I have followed his career (understandably at this distance) closely : but could it be that he is just a somewhat unspectacular but sound batsman who has learnt his game better as he went on ...and might we hope that he can emulate David Steele who was plucked from obscurity in desperate times in 1975 and immediately showed that common sense and a sound technique can allow a modest but determined player to make runs where more "fashionable" young batsmen were failing ?  
Perhaps the county game isn't what it was.  But I do think that it sometimes it might pay to pick an in-form county pro rather than seeking the next bright young star...sort of like Rogers for Australia.

You don't get a ten year player , even if he succeeds.  But if you get a couple of good seasons that's better than a revolving door , no ?

[guildfordbat]

I have decent hopes for Stoneman. Leave it at that for now.

[alfie]

I just don't think we should have our second best batsman coming in at 7. He has to be at least ahead of Stokes at 6, for me.

Six I could accept , Olly. Don't think it matters a lot , to be honest : sometimes the situation would favor Stokes at six , sometimes Bairstow - but Test teams don't like to chop and change the order.

I will say this : Bairstow averages 45.9 at six ; 46.5 at seven ...and about 30 at five. Significant ?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wow no Stoneman in the squad - Westley and Malay included, Westley will bat at 3 and Malan if they play the extra batsman.

[alfie]

Didn't know they were selecting so soon...

Not bad : I approve the Malan selection Liked what I saw in the white ball debut...he might adapt. We shall see , as I'd imagine he will play.
Apparently Stoneman isn't rated as highly as we assumed. Unlucky - this seemed like his chance. But Westley has been in good form.

Better than sitting on their hands. I hope it all clicks...

[Mad for Chelsea]

Not too unhappy TBH. I haven't seen much of either Westley or Stoneman, but Westley's been having a good year. Him being right-handed could be useful too. Malan did well in the T20 and has a good temperament, will be between him and Dawson for the last spot you'd think.

[Gooseberry]

That really is a blind sider!
It goes to show what a disconect there is between the Lions and the test team. I dont know what else Stoneman could have done to demand selection in terms of scores...but someone obvioulsy rates Malan. He has been knocking around the fringes for some time, but even so for him and Westley to leapfrog Stoneman after some had already been surprised by Ballance getting the nod ahead of all of them is a thing. Malan didnt even make the side for the Lions 4 day games.
It does maybe come down to what I alluded to earlier ... these are both guys ( as per Ballance) who have been good for a number of years as well as showing current form.

Malans inclussion also gives an option to supply cannon fodder slow bowling to make Moeen feel more secure about being pretty average himself if Dawson is left out. I do wish they'd make him spell his first name properly though.

[guildfordbat]

Surprised by Stoneman's absence. As per my post the other day, I expected Westley and Malan to be in contention but thought only one of them would make the squad.

Still plenty of options for the selectors as to which two of the thirteen to leave out. Do we stick with two spinners? Do we go with an extra batsman? Do we continue to back Wood?

[alfie]

Surprised by Stoneman's absence. As per my post the other day, I expected Westley and Malan to be in contention but thought only one of them would make the squad.

Still plenty of options for the selectors as to which two of the thirteen to leave out. Do we stick with two spinners? Do we go with an extra batsman? Do we continue to back Wood?

Well I am never too sure of what the selectors are thinking lately ...but it looks like the old standard England 13 man squad : containing a choice of pace or spin bowlers for the last spot according to conditions and one spare bowler for late injuries...
Which would mean Wood , TRJ and Dawson contesting the last spot. (Despite the anti- Dawson feeling going around , I don't mind much which they choose , as it would be a properly balanced XI either way : five bats , a keeper , two all rounders and three pure bowlers...

I fervently hope that is the case. Otherwise not much point in calling up an extra batsman , is there ?

[Gooseberry]

Surprised by Stoneman's absence. As per my post the other day, I expected Westley and Malan to be in contention but thought only one of them would make the squad.

Still plenty of options for the selectors as to which two of the thirteen to leave out. Do we stick with two spinners? Do we go with an extra batsman? Do we continue to back Wood?

Well I am never too sure of what the selectors are thinking lately ...but it looks like the old standard England 13 man squad : containing a choice of pace or spin bowlers for the last spot according to conditions and one spare bowler for late injuries...
Which would mean Wood , TRJ and Dawson contesting the last spot.  (Despite the anti- Dawson feeling going around , I don't mind much which they choose , as it would be a properly balanced XI either way : five bats , a keeper , two all rounders and three pure bowlers...

I fervently hope that is the case.  Otherwise not much point in calling up an extra batsman , is there ?

Malan is a reasonable batsman who can bowl a bit of spin ...Dawson is a mediocre spinner who can bat a bit ....to me thats where the decision is (plus Wood vs TRJ which may come down to fitness). 5.5 bowlers or 6.
I really dont see them going with Dawson and Malan in the side....although as you say they seem to have a habit of pulling rabbits with two heads out of the hat recently!

[alfie]

Probably right , Goose. But you'd think it would have to be Malan over Dawson surely - even without considering that the Middlesex man can bowl a bit as well. Be a waste of time calling up a twenty nine year old batsman to carry drinks , no ?
TRJ or Wood might come down to fitness.

I am somewhat sympathetic to Stoneman but generally approve of this squad.

[Gooseberry]

Probably right , Goose.  But you'd think it would have to be Malan over Dawson surely - even without considering that the Middlesex man can bowl a bit as well. Be a waste of time calling up a twenty nine year old batsman to carry drinks , no ?
TRJ or Wood might come down to fitness.

I am somewhat sympathetic to Stoneman but generally approve of this squad.

Id agree and hope so.

At least this way they can continue to massage Dawsons ego by making it look like hes been rotated out for conditions rather than dropped.

The flip here is you'd be talking about 2 debutant batsmen in one game alongside one with 5 caps (as well as potentially a debut for TRJ) ...whilst Dawson is hardly an old hand it would be a lot of inexperience in the top order. As a team though England dont have a shortage of that now, whilst youngish Bairstow, Moeen , Stokes and even more so Root have a lot of caps between them...as do the senior seamers.

Whatever they do its going to look very different from what we might have imagined 12 months ago.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Well that was unexpected. But it seems a logical decision as Morkel and Philander have been feasting on the lefties in the top 3. Good to break it up with a right hander

[Jetty]

I'd like to see
1 Cook
2 Jennings
3 Westley
4 Root
5 Malan
6 Stokes
7 Bairstow
8 Ali
9 Broad
10 Wood
11 Anderson

Hameed replacing Jennings for the WI series.
No more playing of 6 bowlers EVER. What team does that!
Ali is not the second spinner. Bayliss should stop telling him that. He is the leading wicket taker in the series so far.

[Gooseberry]

Looks like the probable team to me Jetty but whoi knows what the selectors think these days.

Theres a chance Wood will miss out due to a "bruised heel" which seems to be the England camps shorthand for "rubbish recent performances" 
You'd think there would be time to recover prior to the start of the test. 

TRJ could be decent on home pitches, and can hold a bat. The old "cant be any worse" comes into it as well. 

Cricinfio has it that the deciding factor on Stoneman was Bayliss never having seen him. Which if true begs the question ...whats the point in the Lions then?

[guildfordbat]

I don't think England will want to play three debutants.

That will probably count against TRJ and mean we go with ''Jetty's team'' as above assuming all are fit to go.

However, should Wood remain crocked, several possibilities and cans of worms are then opened up if England really feel three new boys is one too many. Sorry, Goose, but that could even allow Dawson to keep his place and squeeze out TRJ or Malan.

The Oval regulars are convinced the pitches there this season have favoured the bat over the ball far too much and done next to nothing to help the spinners. Whether the selectors have heard them is another matter.

[Jetty]

Do we play 2 spinners in England? Not going further back than 2010, is Dawson and Ali the first to play together in these two Tests?

[guildfordbat]

Hi Jetty - well, there was of course Kerrigan's disastrous debut at the Oval in 2013 when he played alongside Swann. That said, we do normally avoid playing two spinners in England.

[Jetty]

Hi Jetty - well, there was of course Kerrigan's disastrous debut at the Oval in 2013 when he played alongside Swann. That said, we do normally avoid playing two spinners in England.

Thanks. I wonder if Mushie, our spin coach, is encouraging England to play 2 spinners or is it because Ali wants to be known as the 2nd spinner that we are picking a 1st spinner. It's all very confusing. I don't have any faith in Bayliss.

[Gooseberry]

I don't think England will want to play three debutants.

That will probably count against TRJ and mean we go with ''Jetty's team'' as above assuming all are fit to go.

However, should Wood remain crocked, several possibilities and cans of worms are then opened up if England really feel three new boys is one too many. Sorry, Goose, but that could even allow Dawson to keep his place and squeeze out TRJ or Malan.

The Oval regulars are convinced the pitches there this season have favoured the bat over the ball far too much and done next to nothing to help the spinners. Whether the selectors have heard them is another matter.

That would leave a deeply odd side.

2 spinners (neither of which is a real full time bowler) and 3 seamers (1 of which is seen as an impact player and none they want bowling 21 overs in a day)  surely isnt an option.
If TRJ did come in then 4 seamers and 2 spinners and only 4 specialist bats is solving none of the issues they've had. If anything its heaping even more pressure on the inexperienced players at the top of the order.

Its not even like Dawson is significantly more experiecned, I wouldnt buy the argument regarding concerns about too many debutants. With Malan in the side you get more batting and an occassional spin option. Unless it looks like a bunsen it would be insanity to persist with the Dawson who they hardly bowl anyway. With the weather pointing to seamer friendly conditions its surely even less likely they'd persist with this experiment.

As it is Woods likely to be fit anyway.

[alfie]

Goose making a lot of sense there. Have to agree totally.

A bit of a concern

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

SA have released Duminy from the squad for the rest of the series. Looks like that's his test career done & dusted

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/20144847/jp-duminy-released-squad-rest-series

[guildfordbat]

Away for a bit now. You behave yourself, Goose, and everyone else enjoy the next Test.

Just don't buy into this being the 100th Oval Test - it's the 101st and a huge disservice to Sobers, Illingworth and their 1970 teams to try and rewrite history and claim that a match for which tickets were sold as a Test, was broadcast as a Test and, more importantly, was played as a Test wasn't a Test. Probably just as well I don't have longer now to bang that drum.

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Goose making a lot of sense there.   Have to agree totally.

A bit of a concern

[Jetty]

Mail
England assistant coach Paul Farbrace said on Tuesday: ‘This pitch tends to offer a bit for the spinners with it being dry underneath, so there is a fair chance two frontline spinners might play.’

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Toby Roland-Jones debuts at the Oval, Mark Wood out with ankle injury. Hoping there's some grass left on the Oval playing surface.

[dummy_half]

I know he's been in and around the squad for a little while, but I can't help thinking that TR-J is a bit too 'bits and pieces' to be a really successful Test player - probably deserves a chance to prove me wrong, but I'm not anticipating much.

Surely (given the weather) England can't seriously be thinking of retaining Dawson and playing 2 spinners, especially given the fragility of the batting line-up. Looks like the side will be:
Cook
Jennings
Westley
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Toblerone Jones
Broad
Anderson

Batting depth, but a few who still have to prove they belong at this level. Bowling worries me unless Jimmy makes the ball hoop.

[Gooseberry]

You'd think so DH but the Farbrace comments suggest otherwise and we probably will end up with 3 all rounders again. Presumably Westley ahead of Malan if they do go with that. Cricinfo certainly seems to thin thats the case.

You have to wonder what Farbrace is on

I think the one thing our selectors have done well in the last few years is be very consistent.

Apparently Foakes and Garton took part in the net sessions.

[jimbohammers]

Can't wait for the meltdown on here when Dawson plays tomorrow

[Gooseberry]

At least we have been prewarned Jimbo! It softens the blow.

In theory this side worked in the first test. IMO that inspite of Dawsons presence ratehr than because of though. His contribution with the ball was pretty minimal, and non existant with the bat. The intagible is how much he did take the pressure off Moeen and bring the best from him. If you subscribe to that theory then he was a game changer.
The second test ...waste of a place. England needed more vim form their seamers and more fight from their bats.  Spinners were always onto a non starter there, although Moeen was more effective.

Could the contributions hes made have made with the be delivered by Malan and Root? Quite possibly, England were treating Root as a legit second spinner in ODIs. And for all the talk of Moeen being relegated to "second spinner" thats simply nor borne out by how he and Dawson have been used....or by their respective figures. 

So consitency. Farbrace talks this up. Have the England selectors deleivere dthat in recent years? Absolutely not. I have no idea where gets that from. 3 spinners dumped since the winter...one of them driven to retire. How many tests was Duckett given? How many times has Moeen been bumped around the order? How many times has the third seamer been changed? How many top order bats have they tried? Buttler as a specialist bat? Ballance in and out the side.
Beyond the core stars of  Cook, Root, Stokes, Moeen, Anderson and Broad  the side has chopped and changed dramticaly in personel, roles and make-up. Lots of revolving door selections.
Id be surprised if any other major test nation has used as many players over the last few years.

But Ok Dawson...in theory hes a better player than he has shown so far. Does he deserve a chance to prove that? Is it going to be a spinners paradise? Id be surprised but then that turned out to be the case in T1.
Would Malan make that much of a difference? Well Im not 100% convinced by him either. Hes been sniffing around the edges of the side for a long time though and clealry has some talent. England desperately need to get some top order bats establishing themselves as test players, and looking ahead to the winter one with a bit of part time bowling could be handy. But I dont honestly think that his selection alone would fundmentaly transform England.

So Farbraces other comments ... that England lost because of poor shot selection and application ...some too reckless, other too tentative. The overiding theme being they were pretty brainless and didnt play sensible cricket. Add in to that that the seamers bowled the wrong length in the first innings.
It doesnt really matter who you select if individually and collectively the team doesnt apply their abilities well.
All plans go out the window if people chuck wickets away or bowl at the wrong set of stumps.
Dawson can be a weak link in a good team if they all turn up and play properly. See the first test, and invert this for the South African performances. England should not be collapsing to a semi fit Philander and Chris Morris no matter who is batting 8.

So look positive ...Dawson can do better and it wasnt his selection alone that caused the issues last time.

Hes still rubbish though and surely not a serious option for the winter.

[king_carlos]

TRJ is a seamer who bats a wee bit. He isn't a bits and pieces cricket, at least not by the old Anthony McGrath or Craig White type description regularly used in yesteryear. Two cricketers I look back on with fondness incidentally, but they definitely fitted the bits-n-pieces moniker as international players.

TRJ is an out and out seamer though rather than a Liam Dawson or Ansari type selection that will be influenced by their batting. He can bat but more in the Plunkett mould than Dawson.

As a seamer I think he lacks the pace to succeed at test level though. Particularly when he doesn't swing the ball too much. He's a hit the seam and get movement from the pitch type bowler from what I've seen.

[dummy_half]

king carlos

I was more meaning bits and pieces Derek Pringle / Ronnie Irani types - mainly picked for their bowling but in the hope they would contribute with the bat. I do though question the merit (ever) of picking someone who is realistically the 4th seamer and a number 8 / 9. First class averages of 35 bowling and 25 batting for this season don't inspire confidence (although I note his career bowling average is substantially better, around 25)

[king_carlos]

That's a bit of a disservice to Ronnie there, dummy. The bloke averaged over 40 with the bat in first class cricket!

I get what you are saying but I think he's being picked as next seamer off the rank to replace Wood. I doubt his batting has come into the equation at all. Broad for instance has a very comparable first class record to TRJ with the bat but has played much of it against far better opposition.

It's a shame that Liam Plunkett is injured. His consistent form for Yorks is deserving of further test recognition. Unfortunate for Jake Ball too that he's recently been injured.

[Gooseberry]

I agree with Carlos. Hes picked as the bext best adult seamer with Woakes Plunkett and Wood out.
The batting fudge has already been made for Dawson. He is the bits and pieces player in the side.
Moeen and Stokes spend a lot of their careers looking like that too.
Mind Broad used to get accused of it as well. Now Im not sure how the test team would cope bowling wise without him.

We may disagree with TRJ ahead if currans / overtons but Im pretty certain his on merit of his bowling ...even if he appears unspectacular to us muggles.
When it comes down to it hes 7th choice seamer ...its no shock if hes not Dale Steyn.

[Gooseberry]

Just read Roots comments.

Apparently TRJ is taking a lot of wickets and banging the door down. Hes consistsntly good.

Presumably why hes got a county average of 35 this season

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Can't wait for the meltdown on here when Dawson plays tomorrow

I'm both part of the meltdown and find it funny. Surely they won't persist with Dawson...surely

[alfie]

I am also getting a sinking feeling that they may persist with six bowlers ...they have apparently assured us that TRJ will play (with which I have no real problem : you can argue Overton/Curran/Coad might be better but it's hardly provable one way or the other)...and this stuff about a wicket that might suit spin suggests Dawson will retain his spot and the team remains 4 bats 3 allrounders and 4 bowlers ; never mind that formation has now seen seven losses in ten games - coincidence ?
If the pitch is a desert they might get away with it. But I reckon Lord's was a one-off : can anyone recall the last time England actually won a Test at home with two spinners in the team ? Names were probably Laker and Lock

Malan may not be The Answer but we will never know if they don't play him. And if they think they can take the current lineup to Australia without being laughed at they are either optimistic or crazy... Isn't much time left to find a viable order.

[sirfredperry]

There's been only one thing more stupid than picking Dawson in the first place and that is keeping him in the side.
   But it's always more relaxing following the next Test after an England defeat. Apart from India away in the last series, Eng always seem to fare better after a good thrashing.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Malan plays

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The burger van is on 12th man duties!

[jimbohammers]

No Dawson which means England will win easily. Right?
Think we look a bowler light.

England batting first.

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