England vs South Africa - test series thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?

[guildfordbat]

Lunch. England 85/2. Strange goings on.

Excellent start by Philander and Morkel getting England into big trouble at 3/2 with both openers back in the hutch. However, inconsistent bowling from then on with too many boundary balls which Ballance and especially Root took full advantage of.

Fancy England to get a healthy lead if South Africa don't cut out the filth ....

[guildfordbat]

I do not look at rankings very often but surely Joe Root is the number 1 test batsman at the moment?

Hi Billy - I'm no fan of individual and team rankings. In my book, they are things for history to judge. What really counts now is what is happening now.

Certainly, South Africa would definitely want to see the back of Root more than anyone else which goes some fair way to backing up your view.

With that, Mrs Bat grabs the remote control and it's uninterrupted tennis here for the afternoon ....

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Morris has the most unlikeable face

I spoke to him at Guildford last year. He seemed to fit in quite well there.

He's probably a lovely bloke, but he's got one of those ruddy sportsman faces that look so infuriating amidst competition

[GSC]

Have to wonder whether Ballance is running out of lives at test level

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I hope so.

England may do well to stay alive in this test too.

[alfie]

Tough day at the office for England...

Some excellent SA bowling from Morkel , Philander , and - perhaps a little surprisingly - Maharaj .
No question batting today has been harder - pitch has quickened up just enough to make a significant difference ; and of course the sun has remained hidden. Even so it's been disappointing that they've failed to force SA to use their pretty ordinary change bowlers much : scoring rate is good but they're running out of wickets.
Harsh to be critical of Root given he played so well ; but his was a very careless dismissal. No one else has looked at ease , though Bairstow played a gutsy innings and fell to a real peach of a delivery from Maharaj.
Perhaps England's spinners may find a bit more assistance when they bowl again , based on the way the SA twirler has bowled ; but they'll be hoping to bat a while yet first...

Oops - Dawson gone ...or is he ? No : drs saves him from an absolutely shocking decision ! Nowhere near that ball !

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Gotta be a 1-1 leveller here

[alfie]

Looks that way , Dolphin...

Nine gone now . Going to trail by 120 plus and unless they can bowl SA out for seventy five or so the game is surely gone.

Wake up call for players and selectors : I did fear there was a touch of complacency in the air after the Lord's win. SA teams don't usually roll over easily...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Pretty pitiful batting display from the boys today. Joe Root was outstanding, the rest totally at sea. I think Root has to bat a 3. I've got no confidence in Jennings or Ballance as Test batsmen. We probably need an extra batsman rather than 3 all rounders(Stokes, Moeen and Dawson). I'd like to see Mark Stoneman get a chance. Mark Wood looks totally out of his depth as a Test bowler. Pure pace doesn't get you anywhere without having additional skills to complement that raw pace. Woakes for Wood if he's fit again

[VTR]

Absolute rubbish but could see it coming. Trent Bridge is a bat first and get some runs on the board ground. Once Philander was made to look like Bradman last night, basically gifted 50 runs it was always going to be very hard to come back

[guildfordbat]

An odd and ultimately very disappointing day for England. I thought England shaded the opening session. You could debate that but no doubt about the middle and last sessions where we were trounced heavily.

Not only did England fall short by 130 runs but they were all out in about 50 overs. That's moved the game on and pretty much ensures a positive result. With South Africa now leading by more than 200 and with 9 wickets left at the start of day three for which the weather forecast is good, it seems only a question of how long before the series is levelled 1-1.

[Gooseberry]

For once I agree with Nathaniel. Dawson is vlearly a poor pick for this game, not the only problem but the obvioius weak link

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For once I agree with Nathaniel.  Dawson is vlearly a poor pick for this game, not the only problem but the obvioius weak link

Not to pile on the guy, but he seems a very Flower-esque selection. Works hard, great attitude, apparently great in the dressing room (which is good, considering how long he bats for...), but ultimately lacks the skill to play international test cricket.

[VTR]

Lots of issues to resolve. Jennings seems pretty terrible, Ballance still not very good, Stokes is out of form. Dawson a waste of a place, Wood bowling mainly rubbish. That's half the side, glad I'm not a selector having to sort it out

[Gooseberry]

True VTR but last week SA were on a similar hole. All they did was drop Duminy and transformed bavk into a credible side.

The issue with top 4 batters has dogged England for so long now. Stoneman must be next in line, but when?

[VTR]

I think SA got away with their team selection here. Philander at 7 is a risk, and fair play to them it has paid off. England's lower order were pathetic and can reasonably be accused of not even trying to play a sensible innings between them

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

The problem with the Dawson selection is, that the Oval may well spin and two spinners might be justified there. Obviously you can't make wholesale changes but a little tweaking.

Stoneman with a debut on his home ground would probably be a good call. Is Woakes fit? If he is he replaces Wood. Then it's a decision on Dawson/Rashid/Crane as the other. I'd go with Rashid TBH.

[guildfordbat]

At a Surrey members' forum about ten days ago, Alec Stewart said he understood that if England had chosen a squad of thirteen (rather than twelve as was the case) for the first Test, then Stoneman would have been in it. It would seem apparent that he's the next cab off the rank.

I agree with VTR about Philander at 7 being a risk and am also unconvinced by Morris at 8 or even in the team at all. However, you rarely have the perfect hand and it's how you play what you have at your disposal that counts. So far in this Test, South Africa have largely played well albeit aided by England's ineptitude.

I don't think England can turn this match round but there's still enough time and opportunity for certain of their players to put in a decent performance and avoid the immediate chop.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Woakes won't be fit - he's playing his first game back from injury for Warks 2nd XI on Monday, but is unlikely to be ready to return in this series - West Indies series he will be available you'd think. I agree that he comes in for Wood when he is ready to go.

[eirebilly]

Was reading on the BBC that a lot of people are blaming Root for poor captaincy. I cant see it myself, he cant be blamed for batsmen having a poor day.

[guildfordbat]

Was reading on the BBC that a lot of people are blaming Root for poor captaincy. I cant see it myself, he cant be blamed for batsmen having a poor day.

Hi Billy - I haven't seen enough of this Test to comment in detail but I understand where you're coming from. If England had shown better application with the bat, we might have ended yesterday (and don't forget that was only day two) on something like 280/6 with everyone eagerly anticipating what was to come and potentially an exciting finish.

I would say though that Root, despite having batted imposingly, didn't help his or England's cause by how he got out.

[alfie]

Didn't take long for the pack to get after Root then

Oh I guess he did get a few things wrong though as guildford says his main error was getting out (carelessly I think) when well set. He probably erred in using Dawson early on instead of Moeen (which quite possibly made little difference anyway) and I did feel he failed to press the attack hard enough against Morris when he first came in on Friday evening - there was surely a case for recalling Broad for a few overs instead of going to (rather ineffective) spin and waiting for the new ball. But all captains make some questionable choices - let alone in their second match ! And how the alternatives would have worked out is something we can never actually know...

If Root was complicit in keeping the same XI for a match to be played in very different conditions from those at Lord's then that was his worst mistake . But I suspect that was largely out of his hands.

[alfie]

As to what did go wrong : first off we should acknowledge that SA came out fighting , and played pretty well. Some might have thought after Lord's that they were there for the taking - especially without Rabada - but surely anyone familiar with their qualities of determination and resilience would not have fallen into that delusion ! This is far from a vintage SA team but it was never going to be brushed aside that easily . Their dogged defence which blunted the England attack early on day one and set them up for at least a par score showed they were absolutely up for the fight ; and the opening spell from Philander and Morkel which accounted for both England's openers was as good as you'll want to see. They utilized the conditions a little better than England had done on Friday ; and du Plessis arguably handled his attack better by staggering the spells of Morkel and Philander so that he was not forced to use back up bowlers together for more than a few overs ( despite Morris taking some late wickets , it is clear they have the same problem as England in that the quality of their attack falls away dramatically when the main pair are rested)
Then of course the England batting really didn't turn up. Cook and Jennings fell to good balls - which happens : but it meant the lack of "pure " batsmen in the team was put under the microscope. For a while it seemed Root and Ballance were counter attacking well ; but the latter fell once again after getting a start ... And then of course the only really effective partnership was cut short by Root's loose shot...and all down hill from there...

Reckless ? Moeen , and Dawson , perhaps. I'd say the rest just weren't good enough , or were got out by good bowling. I was disappointed by the way the tail collapsed : would suggest it demonstrates you can never go wrong by batting as deep as possible , even if it does mean a very good player as low as eight : but that is a discussion for another day.
No surprise the bowlers couldn't turn it around after being brought back out less than two sessions after they'd done their first job !

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Getting bad to worst now. Amla nicks a faint one. A rather indifferent appeal. No review taken. Amla lives for another day.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Lawrence Booth of the Daily Mail writes today that we can expect Wood to be rested for WI series with Woakes coming in (Fitness providing), and Crane to play instead of Dawson as England want to give him a go in a test before the winter, but can't do it in this series as we'd then have Broad at 8, Wood at 9!

Wood is seen as having a big part to play down under with his pace and bounce - so they won't to manage him right. I agree that Wood will have a big part to play in the winter.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I don't follow cricket as closely as I once did, who are the alternatives for Dawson and Ballance? Especially heading towards the winter.

I would guess Crane from the fact he is gonna take his place - although is there another seamer (or dare I say all-rounder) on the edges of the squad who could come in dependent on pitch?

I've never really been a Ballance fan

[alfie]

Lawrence Booth of the Daily Mail writes today that we can expect Wood to be rested for WI series with Woakes coming in (Fitness providing), and Crane to play instead of Dawson as England want to give him a go in a test before the winter, but can't do it in this series as we'd then have Broad at 8, Wood at 9!

Wood is seen as having a big part to play down under with his pace and bounce - so they won't to manage him right. I agree that Wood will have a big part to play in the winter.

Sounds like madness. Nothing against Crane but picking two spinners in England is generally (excepting pitches like the Lord's one ) pointless. And if they must do so then for heavens sake leave out a pace bowler ! If you need six bowlers get a team out you're picking the wrong bowlers...

Hopefully Booth is just guessing.

As to Wood : I am beginning to wonder if he really is the prospect we all hoped. Played a few Tests now without ever taking a lot of wickets ...does he really have what it takes to succeed in Australia or should they be looking elsewhere ?

Meanwhile a wicket at last as Stokes does for Elgar ...

[alfie]

By the way that earlier non- review of the caught behind reveals scrambled minds ...

Think the wasted reviews of the first two days appear to have spooked them : even Broad was doubtful !

Amla's reputation for walking might have contributed too

[alfie]

And some good pro-active captaincy from Root is rewarded as he brings Anderson back and he immediately snares de Kock

Signs the young man is learning.

[wisden]

Amla gone. Good review

[compelling and rich]

worrying signs for our bowling attack when we lose anderson, and while broad being a bit younger i doubt he'll be that far behind. havent really seen anything from the rest of the specialist bowlers to come in to suggest they have they have the potential to be top test match bowlers.

[Gooseberry]

6 months or so ago everyone was banging on about Wood being the second coming of christ. How times change.
He maybe would fair better in Australia with a bit more zip and bounce in the wickets.

[compelling and rich]

despite his pace he just never looks a threat, toils away but batsmen never seem in danger

[wisden]

5 down, lead 385

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Problem for Wood is he's had what like 3/4 ankle surgeries now? Ultimately that's gonna take its toll at some point

[VTR]

Jennings will almost certainly be out before the close today. I'm saying that even before there's a declaration!

[Gooseberry]

People wrote Broad off when he had his elbow issues. If the next in line is TRJ then I'd not ditch Wood yet.
Woakes has hardly established himself as a test bowler yet either.

Do any of the Overton/Currans have enough height and bounce to capitalise in Aus?

[wisden]

Philander all over Cook again!

[Gooseberry]

So to clarify ...Dawson is in the side because Ali sometimes goes for a bit.
Ali goes for a bit ...and wraps up 4 wickets in the process taking him to 15 in the series.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So to clarify ...Dawson is in the side because Ali sometimes goes for a bit.
Ali goes for a bit ...and wraps up 4 wickets in the process taking him to 15 in the series.

Whilst Dawson has bowled all of 18 overs in the match...thing is of all the grounds in England where you could play two spinners, The Oval up next is probably the one, but can they really justify picking Dawson again?

[wisden]

I think they will stick with him, unless Woakes is fit to play next test

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So England's task is a huge one - really is just a case of trying not to capitulate and try and take it as deep as they can, maybe adding some wear and tear into the legs of Morkel/Philander in particular.

Jennings/Ballance could do with good knocks - Ballance more than Jennings you'd think.

Obviously his place isn't under threat, but Cook has only 1 hundred in his last 20 innings at an average of just over 30. Would be nice to see him bat all day tomorrow and carry over some of that county form into the international arena...

[alfie]

So to clarify ...Dawson is in the side because Ali sometimes goes for a bit.
Ali goes for a bit ...and wraps up 4 wickets in the process taking him to 15 in the series.

Whilst Dawson has bowled all of 18 overs in the match...thing is of all the grounds in England where you could play two spinners, The Oval up next is probably the one, but can they really justify picking Dawson again?

You say The Oval might call for two spinners ...I am sceptical , but OK - then surely you don't need four pace bowlers as well ? At a pinch Jennings can bowl a few military medium overs to fill in...

Anyway I will stick with my plan to leave detailed selection decisions until after the match is concluded. Hopefully the selectors will too

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Being reported that Mark Wood has bruised his heal. But even prior to that he's looked like a fish out of water in these two matches. If he can get fit for the Oval, I'd give him one more chance. Before bringing in Jake Ball for Old Trafford

[VTR]

Cook, Jennings and Ballance to defy form and all sensible logic with a century each in this innings. The platform will be set today with England 300-2 overnight leaving Root, Bairstow and Stokes to finish it off tomorrow. South Africa may as well concede now

[Gooseberry]

So to clarify ...Dawson is in the side because Ali sometimes goes for a bit.
Ali goes for a bit ...and wraps up 4 wickets in the process taking him to 15 in the series.

Whilst Dawson has bowled all of 18 overs in the match...thing is of all the grounds in England where you could play two spinners, The Oval up next is probably the one, but can they really justify picking Dawson again?

You say The Oval might call for two spinners ...I am sceptical , but OK - then surely you don't need four pace bowlers as well ?   At a pinch Jennings can bowl a few military medium overs to fill in...

Anyway I will stick with my plan to leave detailed selection decisions until after the match is concluded.  Hopefully the selectors will too

Aty the same pinch Root could easily bowl as many overs as Dawson does and conceed less runs in the process. The downside of that is that Ali has to admit hes the number 1 spinner rather than bowling more overs whilst claiming not to be.

[alfie]

Yes you're right there Goose ... One of the downsides to having two "official" spinners is that the captain neglects his own often rather useful bowling : he has a bit of a knack for picking up important wickets and it will be a pity if he starts to regard himself as a non- bowler.
(Fair to say that the selectors got the team balance right for Lord's - either by good judgement or sheer luck! But had they not included Dawson there , I reckon Root might well have done an adequate job as second spinner and the result would probably have been the same )

What time Tuesday do you expect them to hit the winning runs ?

[VTR]

Winning runs at 3:08pm tomorrow

[guildfordbat]

I've seen quite a few of the Oval tracks used by Surrey this season and have generally been disappointed. The contest between bat and ball has been badly wrong, favouring too much the former.

I think the wickets were relaid a couple of years or so ago and the balance still doesn't seem right. Hopefully, that will change for the Test but I'm not encouraged.

[guildfordbat]

Winning runs at 3:08pm tomorrow

If we get a dash on, we could take the extra half-hour and get 'em tonight.

More seriously, although the game is gone as far as I'm concerned, it's an important innings coming up for some of England's players. Personal success today (dare I optimistically say - and tomorrow? Probably not!) might be the difference between being retained and binned. Jennings and Ballance especially. A half-century from Dawson might also keep his hounds at bay a little longer.

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