The Future for the PRO14 - Part 4 - A Global Club Championship

Following the Union Balldance of the last 12 months, another union has finally joined the party - SARU. The PRO12 league is gone with Martin Anayi's announcement of a global club championship involving conferences of teams from five unions with the potential for more to be included.

At first glance, it looks like a smart play - albeit somewhat fortuitous with SARU having to shed two teams from the Super Rugby competition. It brings together a lot more viewers that are attractive to media companies and business sponsors. Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU. No club or franchise owners involved. FIR failed to meet the required performance that would have made them shareholders at the beginning of July. And SARU weren't persuasive enough to get their seat at the table just yet. Rumours of a new company being set up failed to materialise. But they still signed up to a six-year agreement with £6m in funding each year.

It's not clear if this money is coming from SARU or directly from SuperSport, their broadcast partner. It is SARU who have signed the agreement to provide two teams so presumably the financial buck stops with them. It's more likely the £6m is a participation fee paid by SARU, similar to what FIR was charged when it joined in 2010. Media reports have said that the monies will be split equally amongst the 12 teams with travel and logistics costs for SA trips met centrally by Celtic Rugby Ltd since these will vary for clubs depending on whether they play one or both teams in SA.

Next on Anayi's agenda is the negotiation of a new media deal involving PPV and terrestrial TV, and online platforms. SuperSport may have already got their slice - all 20-22 home games involving Cheetahs and Kings plus some/all of the finals stages. Or perhaps not. Sky and possibly other PPV broadcasters such as Eir Sport may be willing to bid more to be the primary broadcaster for a higher profile, expanded Championship. But Anayi will want to keep a slice for terrestrial TV since they have a much better viewership reach. The current deal is for four years. Would a six-year deal be a better strategic move to guarantee increased revenues for a longer period? It would link in with the duration of the SARU agreement. And it would outlast the current participation agreement for the European Cup run by EPCR.

Further expansion is obviously the other key consideration with possibly other teams from SA, US and Europe coming on board. The danger is that Celtic Rugby goes too far and repeats the mistakes of Super Rugby. Better to build slowly to see if they will still come.

The coming season will be a fascinating one to see how the new structure and Championship beds in. Will attendances increase? Will there be more surprise results and potentially another new team to lift the cup next May?

Roll on 1 September.



Further info on PRO14 can be found here:
http://www.pro14rugby.org/2017/08/01/guinness-pro14-championship-qa/

Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Keep the matches as close to the same time zones as possible

Americans are very insular in their make up, the "world" outside the USA borders don't exist unless you in the Marines.

Australia is in a sense the same way inclined, they don't watch any rugby in the SA time zone.

Pot Hale wrote:  Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU.  No club or franchise owners involved.  

No club owners have ever been shareholders or such have they? The private owners are represented as Directorships of Celtic Rugby Ltd or whatever it's now called.

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

The US is a sport business model onto themselves.

IF they do put money into rugby, they won't need Europe.

Biltong - any truth to the rumour that the SA Pro 14 team's fans aren't going to be able to get supporter's jerseys ?

If anyone else gets on board I hope it will be Germany - away trips would be awesome.

Well the ProRugby experiment says they do need Europe, they can't sustain their own league as they don't have the quality in depth right now or the fanbase. Concentrating on one or two teams at most means a team of quality can be built around a focused base and investment structure.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU.  No club or franchise owners involved.  

No club owners have ever been shareholders or such have they? The private owners are represented as Directorships of Celtic Rugby Ltd or whatever it's now called.

Are they represented? It's still called Celtic Rugby Limited.

munkian wrote:Biltong - any truth to the rumour that the SA Pro 14 team's fans aren't going to be able to get supporter's jerseys ?

If anyone else gets on board I hope it will be Germany - away trips would be awesome.

Haven't heard anything like that Munkian, cannot see why it won't be possible.

I suppose it just depends on getting the rights to the correct manufacturer to make the authentic approved jerseys.

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

Sorry can I just check that you mean East? If so then yeah you make a valid point that a Saturday early afternoon game on the east coast would easily be fine for uk/South africa audiences as well

Biltong wrote:

munkian wrote:Biltong - any truth to the rumour that the SA Pro 14 team's fans aren't going to be able to get supporter's jerseys ?

If anyone else gets on board I hope it will be Germany - away trips would be awesome.

Haven't heard anything like that Munkian, cannot see why it won't be possible.

I suppose it just depends on getting the rights to the correct manufacturer to make the authentic approved jerseys.

Its just something I've seen a Cheetah's fan share on Twitter

EWT Spoons wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

Sorry can I just check that you mean East?  If so then yeah you make a valid point that a Saturday early afternoon game on the east coast would easily be fine for uk/South africa audiences as well

Yes I meant East, I knew it was East, told myself to write East and not West and wrote West

munkian wrote:

Biltong wrote:

munkian wrote:Biltong - any truth to the rumour that the SA Pro 14 team's fans aren't going to be able to get supporter's jerseys ?

If anyone else gets on board I hope it will be Germany - away trips would be awesome.

Haven't heard anything like that Munkian, cannot see why it won't be possible.

I suppose it just depends on getting the rights to the correct manufacturer to make the authentic approved jerseys.

Its just something I've seen a Cheetah's fan share on Twitter

Don't know where that person got their info from.

https://www.canterburystore.co.za/cheetahs.html

Canterbury sells their jerseys for Super rugby, why on earth would they not sell jerseys for PRo 14?

marty2086 wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

Sorry can I just check that you mean East?  If so then yeah you make a valid point that a Saturday early afternoon game on the east coast would easily be fine for uk/South africa audiences as well

Yes I meant East, I knew it was East, told myself to write East and not West and wrote West

At least you didn't write South

Biltong wrote:

munkian wrote:

Biltong wrote:

munkian wrote:Biltong - any truth to the rumour that the SA Pro 14 team's fans aren't going to be able to get supporter's jerseys ?

If anyone else gets on board I hope it will be Germany - away trips would be awesome.

Haven't heard anything like that Munkian, cannot see why it won't be possible.

I suppose it just depends on getting the rights to the correct manufacturer to make the authentic approved jerseys.

Its just something I've seen a Cheetah's fan share on Twitter

Don't know where that person got their info from.

https://www.canterburystore.co.za/cheetahs.html

Canterbury sells their jerseys for Super rugby, why on earth would they not sell jerseys for PRo 14?

No idea but the canterbury twitter lad isn't confident

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

The West Coast? I think not. East Coast is 5-7 hours behind between Dublin, Rome and Cape Town.

Time zone difference for Super Rugby.

Wellington NZ -  0 hour
Sydney AUS - 2 hours
Tokyo JAP - 3 hours
Perth AUS - 4 hours
JHB SA - 10 hours
Beunos Aires ARG - 15 hours +9


Time zone difference for Pro14
JHB SA - 0 hour
Rome ITA - 0 hour
Cardiff Wales -  1 hour (2 in winter)
Edinburgh SCOT -  1 hour (2 in winter)
Dublin IRE - 1 hour ( 2 in winter)
New York USA - 6 hours
Chicago USA - 7 hours
LA USA - 9 hours

Pot Hale wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Can't see how the Americas are going to add value to the competiton.

IT will go down the same route as Super rugby.

Really?

The talk is of the teams being on the West Coast which is only a 4 hour time difference

The US tv market is one of the richest in the world and the sport is one of the fastest growing there.

If we were to get an American and Canadian team made up mostly of internationals similar to the Jaguares then the value would be immense

The West Coast?   I think not.   East Coast is 5-7 hours behind between Dublin, Rome and Cape Town.  

I forgot about daylights saving, it differs at times of the year from 4-5 hours with GMT

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  Celtic Rugby Ltd still owns the competition with just its three founding shareholders - IRFU, SRU and WRU.  No club or franchise owners involved.  

No club owners have ever been shareholders or such have they? The private owners are represented as Directorships of Celtic Rugby Ltd or whatever it's now called.

Are they represented?   It's still called Celtic Rugby Limited.

Yes, they are represented via 2 of the Directorships.

They're actually a 'DAC' company now not 'Celtic Rugby Ltd', as they changed when the new company type was introduced in Ireland in 2015.

With the exception of a few weeks the East coast is always 5 hours behind - their clocks go forward as well just at a slightly different time.

in this day and age it's just as easy for folk in Washington and New York to get to Edinburgh or Rome as it is for someone in Aberdeen to get to Glasgow.

I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane, it takes me 50 mins to get from my house to the centre of Edinburgh! Travel is just odd these days!

If the Yanks do come on board, we'll not see them playing on a Friday night over here as the TV audience wouldn't be there at what would be lunchtime in the US. Games involving Yank teams would likely be played on a sat evening UK time!

Will be a while yet before the Yanks do join in though!

tigertattie wrote:in this day and age it's just as easy for folk in Washington and New York to get to Edinburgh or Rome as it is for someone in Aberdeen to get to Glasgow.

I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane, it takes me 50 mins to get from my house to the centre of Edinburgh! Travel is just odd these days!

If the Yanks do come on board, we'll not see them playing on a Friday night over here as the TV audience wouldn't be there at what would be lunchtime in the US. Games involving Yank teams would likely be played on a sat evening UK time!

Will be a while yet before the Yanks do join in though!  

It sounds like a great idea, but as soon as people start talking specifics it feels less and less likely to be the sure thing people (the likes of prorugby and pro14) are hoping it to be.
Friday games won't work, 5 hour time difference puts them too late in the current timezones or too early in the afternoon in Washington/New York/Boston wherever they pick. And High school football rules friday nights.

Up until Christmas, college football rules Saturdays and NFL controls sport audiences for 9 hours.

Mid January onwards you could generate some momentum but will have 2 pish poor basketball teams and 2 poor/decent hockey teams drawing fans in NY and tv numbers. Washington will have both nba and hockey in direct competition.

It's a big tv market, but there are some big fish in there that have marked out their territory.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

tigertattie wrote:in this day and age it's just as easy for folk in Washington and New York to get to Edinburgh or Rome as it is for someone in Aberdeen to get to Glasgow.

I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane, it takes me 50 mins to get from my house to the centre of Edinburgh! Travel is just odd these days!

If the Yanks do come on board, we'll not see them playing on a Friday night over here as the TV audience wouldn't be there at what would be lunchtime in the US. Games involving Yank teams would likely be played on a sat evening UK time!

Will be a while yet before the Yanks do join in though!  

It sounds like a great idea, but as soon as people start talking specifics it feels less and less likely to be the sure thing people (the likes of prorugby and pro14) are hoping it to be.
Friday games won't work, 5 hour time difference puts them too late in the current timezones or too early in the afternoon in Washington/New York/Boston wherever they pick.  And High school football rules friday nights.

Up until Christmas, college football rules Saturdays and NFL controls sport audiences for 9 hours.

Mid January onwards you could generate some momentum but will have 2 pish poor basketball teams and 2 poor/decent hockey teams drawing fans in NY and tv numbers.  Washington will have both nba and hockey in direct competition.

It's a big tv market, but there are some big fish in there that have marked out their territory.

What about baseball? That's quite popular there isn't it? The season runs from April to around November.

tigertattie wrote:
I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane 

No, you can't.

You can get out of Edinburgh airport to another airport 40 to 50 minutes (depending on baggage and transport) outside of Cardiff.

PhilBB wrote:

tigertattie wrote:
I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane 

No, you can't.

You can get out of Edinburgh airport to another airport 40 to 50 minutes (depending on baggage and transport) outside of Cardiff.

Slow day at the office, Phil?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

tigertattie wrote:in this day and age it's just as easy for folk in Washington and New York to get to Edinburgh or Rome as it is for someone in Aberdeen to get to Glasgow.

I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane, it takes me 50 mins to get from my house to the centre of Edinburgh! Travel is just odd these days!

If the Yanks do come on board, we'll not see them playing on a Friday night over here as the TV audience wouldn't be there at what would be lunchtime in the US. Games involving Yank teams would likely be played on a sat evening UK time!

Will be a while yet before the Yanks do join in though!  

It sounds like a great idea, but as soon as people start talking specifics it feels less and less likely to be the sure thing people (the likes of prorugby and pro14) are hoping it to be.
Friday games won't work, 5 hour time difference puts them too late in the current timezones or too early in the afternoon in Washington/New York/Boston wherever they pick.  And High school football rules friday nights.

Up until Christmas, college football rules Saturdays and NFL controls sport audiences for 9 hours.

Mid January onwards you could generate some momentum but will have 2 pish poor basketball teams and 2 poor/decent hockey teams drawing fans in NY and tv numbers.  Washington will have both nba and hockey in direct competition.

It's a big tv market, but there are some big fish in there that have marked out their territory.

What about baseball? That's quite popular there isn't it? The season runs from April to around November.

It's big from a volume of games point of view but in reality, April/May no one pays too much attention to games.  Even the media don't really report on baseball to any great degree until after the all-star break each summer.  Post season tends to be October (possibly the first or second day in November but usually that is depending on how the weekends end in the month), at which point there are only 1-2 games on a day which those usually being night games (7pm east coast) so wouldn't impact on afternoon/lunch kick off times in early rugby season.  Even if Washington or New York (either team) had home games over a weekend in sept/oct competing with a rugby day, when teams visit they play c.3 matches across c.3 days on those visits so it tends to be a case of catching a interesting matchup over a couple of days of a window rather than having one limited must see game popping up.

Baseball gets decent cumulative coverage over the summer, but college football is the primary adversary for anything being hosted on a saturday (and that even relates to SEC or PAC games being broadcast, doesn't have to be in either of the expansion towns) and puts a full day of games on multiple channels for the entire day coast to coast.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

tigertattie wrote:
I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane 

No, you can't.

You can get out of Edinburgh airport to another airport 40 to 50 minutes (depending on baggage and transport) outside of Cardiff.

Slow day at the office, Phil?  

Something is slow, for sure.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

tigertattie wrote:
I can get from Edinburgh to Cardiff in 45 mins on a plane 

No, you can't.

You can get out of Edinburgh airport to another airport 40 to 50 minutes (depending on baggage and transport) outside of Cardiff.

Slow day at the office, Phil?  

Something is slow, for sure.

yeah I was rather surprise at how much Cardiff airport is not in Cardiff!

Rhoose airport doesn't have the same ring to it!

Bristol's purchase of Piutau is a sure sign that the salary boom ain't finished yet.

Pot Hale wrote:Bristol's purchase of Piutau is a sure sign that the salary boom ain't finished yet.

Landsdown is simply another participant at club level into the professional tier of the game - something irish rugby doesnt have and which is considered unfair and somehow the AP/T14's fault.
Landsdown certainly isn't doing it for money/commercial return either..... Also a usual taunt from some on here.

The new conference format will breathe some life into the Union league - hopefully the fans will support it long term.

So its Western Force that are to be disbanded.
The old Pro 12 teams are £500,000 richer.
Who is going to be picked up?
The Irish Provinces NIQ spots are mostly filled, think NSQ are as well.

Does it mean any good players may be moving to Wales, and hopefully Italy as well, maybe our new SA friends too?

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Bristol's purchase of Piutau is a sure sign that the salary boom ain't finished yet.

Landsdown is simply another participant at club level into the professional tier of the game - something irish rugby doesnt have and which is considered unfair and somehow the AP/T14's fault.
Landsdown certainly isn't doing it for money/commercial return either..... Also a usual taunt from some on here.

The new conference format will breathe some life into the Union league - hopefully the fans will support it long term.

My point was more about the salary race and it's continuation upwards. I've no idea what you mean by saying someone like Lansdown is unfair. He's a rich benefactor for the club who will likely lose a lot of money - maybe he'll break even at some point. That's his call. I have no problem with it. There are a number of financial factors driving the cost of salaries - benefactors are but one of them.

Interesting comments from SARU CEO, Julie Roux, confirming the union underwriting the Kings for the coming season as they do with other union franchises, at a PRO14 media conference.

SARU are prioritising the PRO14 and Super Rugby equally and will restructure rest of their domestic season around these. I.e. Currie Cup.

SARU plans to have 8 franchise teams ideally assuming playing stocks are there with four each in Europe and in Super Rugby within next couple of years. Roux said in time they might field a test team in November largely drawn from players in PRO14 teams as they'll be used to NH pitches and conditions, and another test squad from SR players for June tests and Rugby Championship.

2020/21 is becoming the looming change point for the game globally when the revised WR global season is brought in, and various competition agreements and associated TV deals are finished such as SANZAAR, Super Rugby, European Cup, etc.

Interesting times ahead with a number of faces popping up as influencers on the game. The media conference for the launch of the PRO14 in SA last Friday with Anayi, Davies and Roux is worth watching for body language as much as what they said.

Roux said in response to a question about SuperSport and TV rights that they'd be making a separate announcement about that in coming week. Not sure if that relates to the match schedule only or if any commercial details will be provided.

Edit: Well, it didn't take long for the Premiership clubs to have a pop at the development of the PRO14 and look down their noses. Unsurprising that it's Saracens leading the way with the rotten fruit...
(Removed this comment as it's inaccurate as pointed out by Recwatcher.)

Interview with SA sports administrator, Edward Griffiths in The Rugby Paper:

"Super Rugby’s fading appeal is likely to provoke South Africa’s major provinces to follow the lead of the Cheetahs and Kings by beating a path North, according to former Saracens chief executive Edward Griffiths.

Griffiths believes the inclusion of the Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth-based sides in a new look PRO14 could pave the way for South Africa’s four remaining Super Rugby franchises to break away from the SANZAAR-run competition when TV deals expire in 2020.

Griffiths, a leading figure in South African sport before revolutionising Saracens from 2008 to 2015, revealed extensive talks between Premiership Rugby and South Africa officials have taken place and reckons a new North-South axis could follow.

“In South Africa there has been a growing urge to play North-South instead of East-West. Firstly, it means easier travel and time differences, not only for teams but for viewers; and secondly, the growing riches in the Northern Hemisphere compared to the Southern Hemisphere mean their leagues are far stronger.

“Before the last round of television deals, when Premiership Rugby renewed with BT and the Southern Hemisphere renewed with SANZAAR in 2015, there were some pretty serious discussions between Premiership Rugby and the South African Union around South African provinces playing North-South competitions with English or French clubs.

“There wasn’t the required incentive to make the jump before, but now the jump has been made by two South Africa teams into the PRO12 that might provide the impetus for the North-South concept to be expanded.

“I think South Africa should have done it years ago but now it might actually be happening.”

Griffiths fears the Cheetahs and Kings may not bring as much to the party as the existing PRO12 teams would like, but insists a consolidation of top English, French and South African sides into one competition would be a sure-fire commercial winner.

He explained: “There’s an element in the PRO12 situation of it being a marriage of the desperate and the desperate: the Cheetahs and Kings are desperate to keep existing; the PRO12 is desperate to do something that increases its profile and television rights.

“It’s not the top teams in South Africa playing North-South, it’s frankly two unwanted teams – teams that have effectively failed in Super Rugby – going into a PRO12 league which is falling further and further behind its English and French counterparts.

“The concept of South African teams playing North-South might not be shown in the best light, as it might have been if the Sharks, Stormers, Lions and Bulls were playing in an expanded English Premiership or European competition. But I hope it’s successful because it could unlock the door to some exciting opportunities.”

Griffiths added: “What would the top South African teams bring to European competition? For starters, they would bring a substantial increase in television revenue because South Africa generates 75 per cent of TV rights in the Southern Hemisphere.

“There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. Whether that makes sense for rugby as a whole is an entirely different discussion.”

Pot Hale wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Bristol's purchase of Piutau is a sure sign that the salary boom ain't finished yet.

Landsdown is simply another participant at club level into the professional tier of the game - something irish rugby doesnt have and which is considered unfair and somehow the AP/T14's fault.
Landsdown certainly isn't doing it for money/commercial return either..... Also a usual taunt from some on here.

The new conference format will breathe some life into the Union league - hopefully the fans will support it long term.

My point was more about the salary race and it's continuation upwards.  I've no idea what you mean by saying someone like Lansdown  is unfair.    He's a rich benefactor for the club who will likely lose a lot of money - maybe he'll break even at some point.  That's his call. I have no problem with it.  There are a number of financial factors driving the cost of salaries - benefactors are but one of them.

Perhaps not you Pot but the general accusation on here that a diversified ownership of the professional top tier is unfair to Union owned franchises - mostly clearly demonstrates by salaries. It did seem strangely out of context with the thread but I will leave it there.

As for Griffiths, he is a SA sports entrepreneur/administrator. He neither speaks for the PRL or Saracens, so your swipe is inaccurate. As he had an intimate knowledge of both SA & UK rugby he better qualified than you or I.
However I would say that his S18 idea is a non starter as both the T14 & PRL do not have the ability to abandon clubs from the top tier in the same way that Unions can and have.....

Sounds a bit disrespectful and a bit of fantasy from Edward Griffiths.
I don't know if he is connected to the Prem still, but it appears he would like to see a dominance of 18 clubs and forget the rest.
Appears maybe he is worried about the Pro 14 becoming an equal in money terms to the English and French Leagues. Which for all of us would be great, andI think Prem fans would like to see evenly matched european games, maybe even have an expanded RCC tournament.

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Perhaps not you Pot but the general accusation on here that a diversified ownership of the professional top tier is unfair to Union owned franchises - mostly clearly demonstrates by salaries. It did seem strangely out of context with the thread but I will leave it there.

What a load of tripe, the accusation is usually the other way around, that the union run model is the one that is unfair

Anyway back to 2 more SA teams maybe joining the Pro 14, 8 SA teams in total, Biltong can correct me if this is unrealistic,

7 teams in the Currie cup this year

Free State Cheetahs
Blue Bulls
Western Province/Stormers
Golden Lions
Sharks
Griquas
Pumas

Souther Spears already in makes the 8 I don't think Boland Cavaliers are part of the plans.

So we can suspect Griquas and Pumas are the teams they have an eye on adding.

Looking at locations, it may make sense to have a SA East/West divide, so fans can travel to games easier. Instead of just adding these two teams to the Pro 14 have a slight reshuffle, where Western Province/Stormers move to the Pro 16 and Pumas join Super Rugby

Pro 16 West SA
Free State Cheetahs
Western Province/Stormers
Griquas
Southern Kings

Super Rugby East SA
Blue Bulls
Golden Lions
Sharks
Pumas

Think this may be SA's plan, and it would be exciting, but would it work as a Pro 16 or Pro 18 with USA/CAD without ending up like the Super 18 mess?

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Bristol's purchase of Piutau is a sure sign that the salary boom ain't finished yet.

Landsdown is simply another participant at club level into the professional tier of the game - something irish rugby doesnt have and which is considered unfair and somehow the AP/T14's fault.
Landsdown certainly isn't doing it for money/commercial return either..... Also a usual taunt from some on here.

The new conference format will breathe some life into the Union league - hopefully the fans will support it long term.

My point was more about the salary race and it's continuation upwards.  I've no idea what you mean by saying someone like Lansdown  is unfair.    He's a rich benefactor for the club who will likely lose a lot of money - maybe he'll break even at some point.  That's his call. I have no problem with it.  There are a number of financial factors driving the cost of salaries - benefactors are but one of them.

Perhaps not you Pot but the general accusation on here that a diversified ownership of the professional top tier is unfair to Union owned franchises - mostly clearly demonstrates by salaries. It did seem strangely out of context with the thread but I will leave it there.

As for Griffiths, he is a SA sports entrepreneur/administrator. He neither speaks for the PRL or Saracens, so your swipe is inaccurate. As he had an intimate knowledge of both SA & UK rugby he better qualified than you or I.
However I would say that his S18 idea is a non starter as both the T14 & PRL do not have the ability to abandon clubs from the top tier in the same way that Unions can and have.....

Rec - I think a more accurate appraisal of comments about financial disparity is around the combination of some rich benefactors, ignoring of salary caps, TV rights monies, and the effect this is having on player salaries and attraction of talent to English & French leagues. There's nothing new in this nor is it commentary restricted to this forum. Thus, Bristol outbidding a PRO14 team for its own player is relevant in the context of the development of the new PRO14 championship and why it's happening.

Your point about about Griffiths is spot on - my mistake in thinking he works with Saracens. I've amended the post accordingly to reflect this.

Kingshu wrote:Anyway back to 2 more SA teams maybe joining the Pro 14, 8 SA teams in total, Biltong can correct me if this is unrealistic,

7 teams in the Currie cup this year

Free State Cheetahs
Blue Bulls
Western Province/Stormers
Golden Lions
Sharks
Griquas
Pumas

Souther Spears already in makes the 8 I don't think Boland Cavaliers are part of the plans.

So we can suspect Griquas and Pumas are the teams they have an eye on adding.

Looking at locations, it may make sense to have a SA East/West divide, so fans can travel to games easier.  Instead of just adding these two teams to the Pro 14 have a slight reshuffle, where Western Province/Stormers move to the Pro 16 and Pumas join Super Rugby

Pro 16 West SA
Free State Cheetahs
Western Province/Stormers
Griquas
Southern Kings

Super Rugby East SA
Blue Bulls
Golden Lions
Sharks
Pumas

Think this may be SA's plan, and it would be exciting,  but would it work as a Pro 16 or Pro 18 with USA/CAD without ending up like the Super 18 mess?

Yes Pumas and Griquas are most certain the two teams that will be added into the mix. And four teams into the Pro 16 makes sense.

I think SARU is planning longterm here, it is an effort from their side to retain more SA players in SA clubs/provinces/franchises.

It would be interesting as to how they will decide which teams play where.

Bulls and Lions are 75km apart in Gauteng, so it would make sense to have one in Super Rugby and one in Pro 16.

Cheetahs and Griquas are geographically also close to each other (around 160km) so would make sense to split them.

Sharks, Pumas, Kings and Western Province are all veey much distanced from the rest, so you might see the northern most of the four go to Pro 16 and the Southern most to Super Rugby.

My thinking is thus Pumas, Bulls, Cheetahs and Sharks to the north and Lions, Griquas, Stormers and Kings to the South.

On the Future for the PRO14 in the same way that the Fiji Warriors will join the National Rugby Championship in Aus in 2017 is being funded by World Rugby.

I would like to see World Rugby fund the creation of a Pacific Islanders rugby union team based in either Spain/Belgium (wherever there is going to be a market) with the aim of working with the Union where they are based to create an academy and bring through local players, as well as academies in Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. To create a pathway for these players to develop, play top class club rugby, and not get nationalised into European teams over 5 years, get the European pay but not be under pressure to retire from international rugby, and also be available for international matches. Maybe even revive the Pacific Islanders rugby union team and tour Europe during autumn internationals to boost funds to the Unions, and/or enter the Rugby Europe Championship?

Would prefer to see World Rugby fund a second team as well, consisting of the best of Georgia, Romania, Russia, Germany (with the assistance of Wild Rugby), Belgium and Spain (wherever team A is not based).

Biltong wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Anyway back to 2 more SA teams maybe joining the Pro 14, 8 SA teams in total, Biltong can correct me if this is unrealistic,

7 teams in the Currie cup this year

Free State Cheetahs
Blue Bulls
Western Province/Stormers
Golden Lions
Sharks
Griquas
Pumas

Souther Spears already in makes the 8 I don't think Boland Cavaliers are part of the plans.

So we can suspect Griquas and Pumas are the teams they have an eye on adding.

Looking at locations, it may make sense to have a SA East/West divide, so fans can travel to games easier.  Instead of just adding these two teams to the Pro 14 have a slight reshuffle, where Western Province/Stormers move to the Pro 16 and Pumas join Super Rugby

Pro 16 West SA
Free State Cheetahs
Western Province/Stormers
Griquas
Southern Kings

Super Rugby East SA
Blue Bulls
Golden Lions
Sharks
Pumas

Think this may be SA's plan, and it would be exciting,  but would it work as a Pro 16 or Pro 18 with USA/CAD without ending up like the Super 18 mess?

Yes Pumas and Griquas are most certain the two teams that will be added into the mix. And four teams into the Pro 16 makes sense.

I think SARU is planning longterm here, it is an effort from their side to retain more SA players in SA clubs/provinces/franchises.

It would be interesting as to how they will decide which teams play where.

Bulls and Lions are 75km apart in Gauteng, so it would make sense to have one in Super Rugby and one in Pro 16.

Cheetahs and Griquas are geographically also close to each other (around 160km) so would make sense to split them.

Sharks, Pumas, Kings and Western Province are all veey much distanced from the rest, so you might see the northern most of the four go to Pro 16 and the Southern most to Super Rugby.

My thinking is thus Pumas, Bulls, Cheetahs and Sharks to the north and Lions, Griquas, Stormers and Kings to the South.

Looks like you wish to split teams close together, and I want to keep them together.
Do you think its best to split them so that supporters can support both, or follow the other in their teams off season? Maybe easier for sponsors in the area as they are not direct rivals?
I was thinking that keeping them together, meant away fans can travel easier and keeps the local derbies.

Mind you the only difference is the Lions and Cheetahs being swapped over.

Kingshu wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Anyway back to 2 more SA teams maybe joining the Pro 14, 8 SA teams in total, Biltong can correct me if this is unrealistic,

7 teams in the Currie cup this year

Free State Cheetahs
Blue Bulls
Western Province/Stormers
Golden Lions
Sharks
Griquas
Pumas

Souther Spears already in makes the 8 I don't think Boland Cavaliers are part of the plans.

So we can suspect Griquas and Pumas are the teams they have an eye on adding.

Looking at locations, it may make sense to have a SA East/West divide, so fans can travel to games easier.  Instead of just adding these two teams to the Pro 14 have a slight reshuffle, where Western Province/Stormers move to the Pro 16 and Pumas join Super Rugby

Pro 16 West SA
Free State Cheetahs
Western Province/Stormers
Griquas
Southern Kings

Super Rugby East SA
Blue Bulls
Golden Lions
Sharks
Pumas

Think this may be SA's plan, and it would be exciting,  but would it work as a Pro 16 or Pro 18 with USA/CAD without ending up like the Super 18 mess?

Yes Pumas and Griquas are most certain the two teams that will be added into the mix. And four teams into the Pro 16 makes sense.

I think SARU is planning longterm here, it is an effort from their side to retain more SA players in SA clubs/provinces/franchises.

It would be interesting as to how they will decide which teams play where.

Bulls and Lions are 75km apart in Gauteng, so it would make sense to have one in Super Rugby and one in Pro 16.

Cheetahs and Griquas are geographically also close to each other (around 160km) so would make sense to split them.

Sharks, Pumas, Kings and Western Province are all veey much distanced from the rest, so you might see the northern most of the four go to Pro 16 and the Southern most to Super Rugby.

My thinking is thus Pumas, Bulls, Cheetahs and Sharks to the north and Lions, Griquas, Stormers and Kings to the South.

Looks like you wish to split teams close together, and I want to keep them together.
Do you think its best to split them so that supporters can support both, or follow the other in their teams off season? Maybe easier for sponsors in the area as they are not direct rivals?
I was thinking that keeping them together, meant away fans can travel easier and keeps the local derbies.

Mind you the only difference is the Lions and Cheetahs being swapped over.

Yeah easier for supporters close together to be able to support two teams, especially Gauteng, the money pit of Africa

Pot Hale wrote: “There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. ”

This Griffiths character sounds desperate.
Above wont happen, if only for one big reasons - does anybody on here think that English or the French will agree to cut lose 6/8 teams respectively?
Not a chance in hell.

This is the same English Premership which when offered the prospect of a British and Irish league insisted on all Pro12 teams being in D2.
They are not for compromising and neither are the French where the Top14 is a untouchable god.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  “There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. ”

This Griffiths character sounds desperate.
Above wont happen, if only for one big reasons - does anybody on here think that English or the French will agree to cut lose 6/8 teams respectively?
Not a chance in hell.

This is the same English Premership which when offered the prospect of a British and Irish league insisted on all Pro12 teams being in D2.
They are not for compromising and neither are the French where the Top14 is a untouchable god.

When you say the English and the French will agree to such a move, who do you mean? The unions?
What would stop 6 Premiership teams breaking away to form a new Elite Top18 league, if their owners who have harboured such notions for some time, wanted to?

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  “There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. ”

This Griffiths character sounds desperate.
Above wont happen, if only for one big reasons - does anybody on here think that English or the French will agree to cut lose 6/8 teams respectively?
Not a chance in hell.

This is the same English Premership which when offered the prospect of a British and Irish league insisted on all Pro12 teams being in D2.
They are not for compromising and neither are the French where the Top14 is a untouchable god.

When you say the English and the French will agree to such a move, who do you mean?  The unions?
What would stop 6 Premiership teams breaking away to form a new Elite Top18 league, if their owners who have harboured such notions for some time, wanted to?  

The AP is a collective group, you won't get teams voting for it when there is every chance they will miss out. You won't get the RFU signing off on it either because it decreases opportunities for young players and damages the pathway for England.

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  “There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. ”

This Griffiths character sounds desperate.
Above wont happen, if only for one big reasons - does anybody on here think that English or the French will agree to cut lose 6/8 teams respectively?
Not a chance in hell.

This is the same English Premership which when offered the prospect of a British and Irish league insisted on all Pro12 teams being in D2.
They are not for compromising and neither are the French where the Top14 is a untouchable god.

When you say the English and the French will agree to such a move, who do you mean?  The unions?
What would stop 6 Premiership teams breaking away to form a new Elite Top18 league, if their owners who have harboured such notions for some time, wanted to?  

The AP is a collective group, you won't get teams voting for it when there is every chance they will miss out. You won't get the RFU signing off on it either because it decreases opportunities for young players and damages the pathway for England.

If 50% of the clubs want to , and a reasonable alternative put in place for the remainder, anything is possible.

I seem to remember that for certain things the AP needs something like 60 or 75% for a big change, maybe some AP fans will let us know if Im right or not

Even at that Prem Rugby who look after all the clubs would have to agree as would the RFU, its never going to happen.

Pot Hale wrote:Edit:   Well, it didn't take long for the Premiership clubs to have a pop at the development of the PRO14 and look down their noses. Unsurprising that it's Saracens leading the way with the rotten fruit...
(Removed this comment as it's inaccurate as pointed out by Recwatcher.)

Interview with SA sports administrator, Edward Griffiths in The Rugby Paper:

"Super Rugby’s fading appeal is likely to provoke South Africa’s major provinces to follow the lead of the Cheetahs and Kings by beating a path North, according to former Saracens chief executive Edward Griffiths.

Griffiths believes the inclusion of the Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth-based sides in a new look PRO14 could pave the way for South Africa’s four remaining Super Rugby franchises to break away from the SANZAAR-run competition when TV deals expire in 2020.

Griffiths, a leading figure in South African sport before revolutionising Saracens from 2008 to 2015, revealed extensive talks between Premiership Rugby and South Africa officials have taken place and reckons a new North-South axis could follow.

“In South Africa there has been a growing urge to play North-South instead of East-West. Firstly, it means easier travel and time differences, not only for teams but for viewers; and secondly, the growing riches in the Northern Hemisphere compared to the Southern Hemisphere mean their leagues are far stronger.

“Before the last round of television deals, when Premiership Rugby renewed with BT and the Southern Hemisphere renewed with SANZAAR in 2015, there were some pretty serious discussions between Premiership Rugby and the South African Union around South African provinces playing North-South competitions with English or French clubs.

“There wasn’t the required incentive to make the jump before, but now the jump has been made by two South Africa teams into the PRO12 that might provide the impetus for the North-South concept to be expanded.

“I think South Africa should have done it years ago but now it might actually be happening.”

Griffiths fears the Cheetahs and Kings may not bring as much to the party as the existing PRO12 teams would like, but insists a consolidation of top English, French and South African sides into one competition would be a sure-fire commercial winner.

He explained: “There’s an element in the PRO12 situation of it being a marriage of the desperate and the desperate: the Cheetahs and Kings are desperate to keep existing; the PRO12 is desperate to do something that increases its profile and television rights.

“It’s not the top teams in South Africa playing North-South, it’s frankly two unwanted teams – teams that have effectively failed in Super Rugby – going into a PRO12 league which is falling further and further behind its English and French counterparts.

“The concept of South African teams playing North-South might not be shown in the best light, as it might have been if the Sharks, Stormers, Lions and Bulls were playing in an expanded English Premiership or European competition. But I hope it’s successful because it could unlock the door to some exciting opportunities.”

Griffiths added: “What would the top South African teams bring to European competition? For starters, they would bring a substantial increase in television revenue because South Africa generates 75 per cent of TV rights in the Southern Hemisphere.

“There’s no doubt that, commercially, the strongest competition in world rugby would be a Super 18 comprising six English clubs, six French and six South African, because England, France and South Africa are the strongest markets. Whether that makes sense for rugby as a whole is an entirely different discussion.”

Conveniently forgot to say that Bloemfontein is the heartbeat of RU in South Africa, and once Cheetahs can keep their talents (which Pro 14 may or may not achieve), they will be a force to be reckoned with.
Kings can only get better with financial backing up (Connacht style) and stability.

So i will say that this guy is talking rubbish in how he is talking down those 2 sides.