England's Elite Performance Squad - 2017/18

First topic message reminder :

I missed the Chiefs game on the weekend - did Slade have a good one?
Seems like he is starting to focus on 13 - I do wonder if that is a directive from RFU.
12 is quite well stocked with Teo and hybrid 12's in Farrell, Lozowski.
After Saints demolition - Is Piers Francis still in the mix for some people?
Joseph I am sure will come back into the mix.

Manu has already lost a significant amount of bulk whilst rehabbing his groin injury. The recent news he is to be a father will hopefully ground him a bit and keep him off the booze as well.

I hope he can string a number of games together. Form is almost irrelevant at this stage with Manu, he is so talented that if he stays fit the performances will naturally come. The fact that he has injured different body parts time after time is the biggest stroke of bad luck. It's not a case of one injury resurfacing time and again.

Players have come back from similar lay-offs in the past to still play some fantastic rugby - Pocock and Wilkinson for instance. Hopefully Manu can emulate them.

I am starting to get why jones rates dunn. Both him and LCD just need to up their lineouts slightly and they ll be well in the mix for a start.

With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

They're favourites still.

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

As we have seen many times.on European cup form Ireland are favourites but they often struggle to deliver at the international table.

maestegmafia wrote:

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

As we have seen many times.on European cup form Ireland are favourites but they often struggle to deliver at the international table.

An Irish team hasn't won the European cup since 2011-12. A Welsh or Scottish team has never won it.

French have done relatively well but been poor internationally.

We could see a French resurgence but didn't in the AIs.

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

Only in America

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

You just focus on beating Italy and we will worry about who wins the tournament

Welsh posters going to continue bleating about WUMs in Welsh threads?

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

You just focus on beating Italy and we will worry about who wins the tournament

To be clinically fair and coldly objective, England's performance in 2017 compared to 2016 shows sings of serious decay:
England LOST A MATCH this year.  The signs are all there, next year it might happen again.

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

You just focus on beating Italy and we will worry about who wins the tournament

To be clinically fair and coldly objective, England's performance in 2017 compared to 2016 shows sings of serious decay:
England LOST A MATCH this year.  The signs are all there, next year it might happen again.

Yes. Things can only get worse.

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

You just focus on beating Italy and we will worry about who wins the tournament

To be clinically fair and coldly objective, England's performance in 2017 compared to 2016 shows sings of serious decay:
England LOST A MATCH this year.  The signs are all there, next year it might happen again.

Yes. Things can only get worse.

Well it will be interesting since the All Blacks will no longer be able to keep ducking us.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:With English rugby falling apart at the seams in recent weeks you wonder if the national side will come into the 6 Nations as favorites anymore.

You just focus on beating Italy and we will worry about who wins the tournament

To be clinically fair and coldly objective, England's performance in 2017 compared to 2016 shows sings of serious decay:
England LOST A MATCH this year.  The signs are all there, next year it might happen again.

Yes. Things can only get worse.

Well it will be interesting since the All Blacks will no longer be able to keep ducking us.  

Yes I 'm sure they will be quaking in their boots; it will be a meeting of two rugby teams and a competition between respective
fans to see who is more arrogant.

No, Glad, you are already the undisputed heavyweight champion of that.

Poorfour wrote:No, Glad, you are already the undisputed heavyweight champion of that.

Actual real rugby news for a change
Daly (ankle) and Hughes (knee) could miss start of 6N

Daly we will manage without although he's been very good for us. We still have May and Watson- who seems to be hitting some real form- and Mr. Angry

Missing Hughes is OK if Billy is back but I have not heard anything about dates for him to return. I don't really want to go in to the 6N with the smallest 8 in world rugby however good Simmonds is otherwise, particularly when we have got used to playing with a couple of the biggest.

Beeb article here http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42419732

We might have May and Watson but there are still plenty of games before we get to the 6 Nations for more injuries, but agree that we have plenty of wingers there or there abouts - Jack Nowell, Charlie Walker, etc.

I hope they don't rush Billy back for the 6 Nations as he has been out a long time and with his bulk will need time to gradually get back up to full fitness.  If Simmonds is next in line as appears to be the case, then he deserves his chance.  If he doesn't work out, then there is the pragmatic options of Waldrom or Haskell.  Josh Beaumont who was in the frame a while ago I think should be ready to play again shortly.  Robshaw has plenty of club experience.  If anything England have been a bit one dimensional when Bill or Hughes play at 8 as they monopolise the ball carrying and become easy targets.

At least England have a large player pool to pick from, so should be able to deal with injuries much easier than other countries.  England chose to use the Autumn internationals as an opportunity to look at some players and I think we would get a better view of how good a player could be if they get the chance in the 6 Nations.  I don't see the 6 Nations as the be all and end all - for me the World Cup is more important, so I would be happy to take a mid table finish if it helped the team towards the next World Cup.

Clifford as well for the 8. I wouldn't be happy to finish midtable personally. Yes a lot can happen and it wouldn't necessarily mean we've been bad but we should be aiming for 1st. World cup is miles away the important thing is your next game.

Of the Quins options, Clifford isn't expected to be back from injury in time - current estimate is February, which doesn't give him time to win match fitness.

Robshaw's played the odd game at 8 but only during periods of real injury crisis. Chisholm could be an option if he can stay concussion-free.

Shame

It's not that I don't rate Simmonds (and there is the guilty pleasure of seeing a player do so well who is apparently exactly the same height and weight as me) but early Feb with crap weather and a heavy slow pitch is exactly when you want the big guys to take control.

As you say when the while team are used to the no8 giving you some go forward off any ball in bad conditions, having an 8 who may struggle there could be an issue. Hughes and Billy are so good at the base of dodgy scrums, I don't know if Simmonds is?

Saying that if the locks are Launchbury and Lawes then they can carry very well. Last time they ran out in the 6Ns together their carrying was incredibly physical.

yappysnap wrote:As you say when the while team are used to the no8 giving you some go forward off any ball in bad conditions, having an 8 who may struggle there could be an issue. Hughes and Billy are so good at the base of dodgy scrums, I don't know if Simmonds is?

Saying that if the locks are Launchbury and Lawes then they can carry very well. Last time they ran out in the 6Ns together their carrying was incredibly physical.

Lawes is very good when he gets the right body shape going into contact, and bloody awful when he's too upright. But yes, we'll need those two to work even harder than normal

Yea when he's too upright he has a bad habit of being man shamed by backs...

He must love getting fines I guess to keep on doing it

If we're relying on Lawes and Launchbury to do all the heavy duty carrying in the 6n on their own...we're in serious trouble!

Well Eddie could have Synkler on the bench, he'd add a good carrying option later in the game.

Look out for *another* Quin's prop who carries like a wrecking ball, Josh Ibaunokpe is an absolute beast and getting some game time for the first team now as well.

lostinwales wrote:It's not that I don't rate Simmonds (and there is the guilty pleasure of seeing a player do so well who is apparently exactly the same height and weight as me) but early Feb with crap weather and a heavy slow pitch is exactly when you want the big guys to take control.

Simmonds has good hands and a big work rate. He isn't the biggest but he is explosive and capable off the base of a scrum, he wouldn't get a look in with Rob Baxter if he wasn't. The pitches won't be in that bad shape, international pitches are like the green on a golf course.

What a nice surprise to see Gary Graham called up to the Brighton England team training squad.

He has been outstanding...and very physical for us at 7. Will Welch will struggle to get his place back.

Obano solomona earle and haskell back as well. I do like the way jones goes about things.

Me too. Jones is building depth whilst giving players a real opportunity they might not otherwise have. The real difficult decisions will start about one year from now. A lot of players will have played well for EJ.

Is Daly injured?

Yup. Him and Hughes. Lawes out for personal reasons.

I can't help but wonder if Graham's inclusion isn't a bit of a mind game from Eddie and a 'come and get me' from Gary to Scotland. His inclusion in the training squad doesn't tie him to England and I feel he is unlikely to be selected for the 6 Nations. I can't help but think he will come back to Falcons be forgotten by England and be quietly capped by Scotland in the summer.

Mind you, I believe he did grow up in Carlisle so who knows?

Full Training squad:

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Nathan Earle (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)*, Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)*, Beno Obano (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Some interesting names in there and some equally interesting ommissons. NO LCD (I believe he has been playing very well). None of the other young sevens like the Curry twins either.

Agree Cumbrian I'm puzzled why he's not in the Scotland thoughts.

Not sure of the status of the curry twins but Underhill is still out with concussion.

Edit: Tom Curry was due to be off for 12 weeks with the wrist injury - which could well keep him out of the 6N. Ben is playing for Sale and I don't know why he does not seem to be in EJ's thoughts - but you can see why EJ is casting the net further for 7's.

So really with Daly and now Nowell out we go for lumps that really will never make the international grade. Where's the rugby intelligence? Where's the ability to read and create space? Where's the ability to pass the ball with accuracy when under the highest pressure? Where'e the ability to run planned moves that actually scare the opposition by your presence alone?

The England management really have little understanding of the qualitative dimension that a highly functioning back 3 will offer. Have they never watched the AB's?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/01/eddie-jones-england-training-camp-five-injuries

kingelderfield wrote:So really with Daly and now Nowell out we go for lumps that really will never make the international grade. Where's the rugby intelligence? Where's the ability to read and create space? Where's the ability to pass the ball with accuracy when under the highest pressure? Where'e the ability to run planned moves that actually scare the opposition by your presence alone?

The England management really have little understanding of the qualitative dimension that a highly functioning back 3 will offer. Have they never watched the AB's?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/01/eddie-jones-england-training-camp-five-injuries

They might. And anyway we still have Watson and May to play on the wings, which is (arguably) a lot better than any combination any other 6N team can play,  with either Solomona or Earle as back up. Full back is an issue but Brown is still there.

He means he's upset that wade hasn't been picked. That ship has sailed now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He means he's upset that wade hasn't been picked. That ship has sailed now.

I knew that - just didn't want to get him going

I'm being slow due to a massive hangover! To be fair I don't think cokanasiga stands a chance to be in the 6ns squad, we're well set for wingers but purely for his potential jones wants to have a closer look and I'm sure give him pointers to work on.

Just read on the article below the call us that Itoje and Vunipola are expected to come back into the saracens squad for next weekend. Good news for England if they can find their form quickly.

And Rhodes becomes eligible. One for geordie.

At some point EJ will be challenged with regards to some of his larger squad selections and why specifically he chooses not to select inform premiership players.

So far his good judgement and a plethora of talent and form has meant he has the results to stick his neck out, however if things get sticky over the next few weeks then fingers will be pointed and rightly so.

Hartley needs to deliver, which he is still capable of doing
Our best 2 locks, Otoje and Launchbury need to be selected as locks
Armand should be our 6, no question
Youngs and Care (especially Youngs) need to deliver. Robson maybe about to pop an Achilles, however his form is irresistible.
The entire backline needs to find form and execute at the very highest level. No room for excuses as time is short. Brown ofcourse should be let go and Watson backed to the hilt. Otherwise Slade could make the fb his own. He is undoubtedly talented enough.

And then what do you know..............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/01/02/rugby-debate-has-premiership-stalled-england-chances-dan-robson/

Who is this Otoje guy? Launchbury has only been selected at lock ever

As for EJ- he lost a whole game therefore he's obviously a failure.

He is building a team rather than always picking the best players, and so far it has worked. Some good players have missed/will miss out along the way, which is tough but it is also what happens when we have a lot of talent. If he gets a run of losses without any obvious side benefits then lets revisit this conversation, but so far he has earned the right to pick who he wants

It's also one of those now where he clearly has his core and more set. We're not going to see widespread changes now unless enforced.

We know what our first and mostly second choice XV looks like now....outside that players are only going to get a look-in through injury (which is going to be a fair few players).

mid_gen wrote:We know what our first and mostly second choice XV looks like now....outside that players are only going to get a look-in through injury (which is going to be a fair few players).

You're probably right but I think it's a mistake in certain areas. You need to constantly evolve, we can't expect to be the same team from 2016-2019 and for teams not to figure us out. And picking players based solely on team fit and with little emphasis on form may eventually catch up to us. It's a hard balance but there are still 20 odd caps to be won before the WC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just read on the article below the call us that Itoje and Vunipola are expected to come back into the saracens squad for next weekend. Good news for England if they can find their form quickly.

And Rhodes becomes eligible. One for geordie.

Ah you have got to be flipping kidding me.....our squad will have more accents than the UN!

Not until June so you've got time to accept it.