England v Argentina - 11th November

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Details

Date: Saturday 11th November
Time: 15:00 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium, Twickenham, Surrey
TV: Sky Sports
Radio: R5L


Officials

Referee: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2: Dan Jones (Wales)
TMO: Olly Hodges (Ireland)


Head to Head

10 Played 10
15 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
533 Total Points 298
27 Average Score 15



Recent Form

17th June 2017
Santa Fe
England 35-25

10th Juan 2017
San Juan
England 34-38

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Twickenham
England 27-14

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Twickenham
England 31-12

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Buenos Aires
England 51-26

8th June 2013
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England 32-3


Teams

ENGLAND


Brown
Watson
Joseph
Slade
Daly
Ford
Youngs
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Lawes
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes

George, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Curry, Care, Lozowski, Rokoduguni



Argentina

According to the Times, Farrell and Itoje are set to be rested, with Lozowski playing 12, Underhill 7 and a Daly/Brown/Watson back three. I would agree with subbing Brown early to give Watson time at full back, but it will depend on who makes the bench.

I imagine from that that Lozowski is seen as the replacement for both Ford and Farrell at this point, but it will be interesting to see whether Eddie decides to bring Smith through quickly as he's the most direct replacement for Ford we have.

Looks weak

Poorfour wrote:According to the Times, Farrell and Itoje are set to be rested, with Lozowski playing 12, Underhill 7 and a Daly/Brown/Watson back three. I would agree with subbing Brown early to give Watson time at full back, but it will depend on who makes the bench.

I imagine from that that Lozowski is seen as the replacement for both Ford and Farrell at this point, but it will be interesting to see whether Eddie decides to bring Smith through quickly as he's the most direct replacement for Ford we have.

Team on previous page. Slade at 12, Loz on bench.

LondonTiger wrote:Brown
Watson
Joseph
Slade
Daly
Ford
Youngs
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Lawes
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes

George, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Curry, Care, Lozowski, Rokoduguni

Just to put this on the next page.

Slade rather than lozowski. Good team. Good bench. Let's hope we see this quick attacking dominant display they've been talking about. Shame may hasn't been passed fit.

Not very ambitious but should comfortably win.

I am glad Itoje and Farrell are being rested at least.

Lawes should be rested at some point too.

Poorfour Marcus Smith is still 18 though.

no 7 & 1/2 not surprised you are pleased with the lack of ambition.

The undroppables stay undroppable - unsuprisingly.

I quite like that

Gives Itoje/Farrell the rest that many have been calling for. Slade gets a go, Underhill gets a go with practically a first choice pack, and we get to see how Genge/Curry etc go later on

Fair team, arguably as strong as we can put out with current injuries.

Would have liked to have seen a different full back given a go.

I'm hoping May will be fit for the next game and we'll see Watson moved back.

Watson has given an interview saying he's feeling fit and ready to go, wouldn't expect him to say different but doesn't sound like someone who is about to be given a rest

Why a lack of ambition beshocked? We have 2 relative newbies who are going to get time on the pitch. A newbie at openside. A relative new guy bedding in at 8. A new 12. Rokoduguni on the bench for what I'm assuming is a plan to move Watson or Daly back to 15. What were you really. wanting?

He means George isn't starting hooker.......

Eight of the 23 man squad have 10 caps or less.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He means George isn't starting hooker.......

https://www.606v2.com/t66722-jamie-george-vs-dylan-hartley-round-12

I've realised as he's changed his post to reflect that sarge!

Im very interested to see how Slade goes at 12...we know about his playmaking ability, but what about his physicality in there.

I like the look of the back row. And Curry coming off the bench doesn't weaken it at all.

I hope to see a comfortable win.

It's not as if England have any debutants starting.

Hughes has had a few starts for England.

Slade has been around the squad for a while.

Someone else to start at 15.

Jamie George for once to actually get a start for England or alternatively give Genge a start.

We know what M.Vunipola can do so he doesn't need a start.


Jones isn't exactly being that bold with his selection - he has to pick Hughes.


Jones still needs to prove certain players aren't undroppable.


Londontiger Hughes has more than 5 starts though.

I'm just going to say that dropping a guy in the team for a handful.of starts don't mean they're integrated in the team. It takes 10 to 15 caps over a relatively short amount of game time for me. You can't say he's not giving people a chance as underhill has 2 caps or whatever so he's already been tried. Look at the experience of this team.

Which debutants would you have liked to see starting

If Underhill and Curry with their average 19 years alive and 2 caps don't count as fresh faces I'm not sure who would!

Easier to integrate into a team when you are starting for the team instead of just racking up the bench appearances. It's also why I would have given Genge a run out instead of Mako.

Hughes has had a run at 8 for England because of Billy's absence.

Obviously if you only get selected on the bench, you haven't been given the experience to start.

Itoje integrated into the team at a fast rate. Why? Because he got a few games in a row as a starter....

Underhill is 1 player.

Really bold.... pushing the boundaries with his selection.

England aren't playing the ABs, they are playing Argentina at home, if you can't be a bit bolder in that scenario then you can't be bold in basically any scenario.

I'd go for a more conservative selection in a tougher game like vs the Aussies.

Suggesting two or three other changes to the starting line up vs Argentina is not really being that dramatic.

Not as if I am saying throw Smith in at 10. Curry and Underhill both in the backrow. Mallinder at 12 with Slade at 13. Harry Williams at 3, Watson at 15.

What would your team have been?

I'll start it off for you

1. Genge
2. George
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

Like the team though I'm not sure why we're hesitant on starting Williams and Genge when they did perfectly well against this opposition in the summer. Other than reversing the bench and starting front row for this encounter it looks a good squad.

Mike Brown desperately needs to show up because he's been poor for Quins and if he doesn't show himself as a rock at the back organising and commanding he may well be watching from the stands next weekend.

I think it's easier to slowly integrate a few players here and there amongst string lineups than it is with sweeping changes. Allow players to slot into a cohesive team and make the shirt something you have to fight for.

Underhill is one player you're right beshocked. Genge is another. Williams is another. Curry is another. Slade is another. Lozowski is a other. Rokoduguni is another. Which team would you say is consistently good at succession? For me it would be nz. Have you seen how they generally do it? Quite a lot of bench appearances wit of course the occasional guy who is thrown in mainly due to injury. There's nothing wrong with supporting a guy in rather than a sink or swim approach given some people's lack of patience in this area.

BamBam wrote:What would your team have been?

I'll start it off for you

2. George

If you don't start him vs Argentina then when?

It's simply because I obviously believe he's earned a start for England. I'd say several times over. He holds the record for most caps without a start for England and that number will keep going up.

Do you seriously think that's fair? I don't.

Then there's of course full back which I've talked about in length.

I mention LH and Genge because England do have to look at 3rd choices too.

Mako's place in the squad isn't set in stone admittedly but we know what he can do - I would have started Mako vs the Aussies and Genge vs Argentina.

Genge is quite petulant and raw so starting vs the Argentinians would have been an interesting test.


No it's not all about George.


no 7 & 1/2 of those only Slade is starting.

Please don't pretend the XV is bold isn't not - it is conservative.

I'm not disputing George starting - just asking what your team would have been

George isn't a debutant either, and he's much less of a fresh face than some of the others you're overlooking

Bambam George has never started for England so in that vital role he is lacking experience.

Well firstly I'd get a cast iron guarantee from Jones that George will start at least one game in the AIs.

If it's not vs Argentina then vs Samoa.

My team would largely be the same but Genge and Mako swapping with Mako starting vs the Aussies, Watson at 15 with Brown not even in the 23.

Back three of Roko,Watson,Daly - Solomona on the bench. Two Bath players in the back three.

Dropping Brown would have not been much different from dropping Haskell. Experienced player who isn't performing like he has in the past.

It's not a game of 15 beshocked. You wouldn't disagree that this system is used by nz when they have a choice? Or should they be giving full debuts as soon as they can?

I know that no 7 & 1/2. I support a club side which uses rotation more than most other AP sides.

Squad matters. It's why it's generally me pushing to develop more fringe options. Sadly you like to throw players into the deep end in at the inappropriate time.

Conservative when you should be bold, reckless when you should be conservative - that seems to be the way you want England to do things.

Need to empower squad members. Not make it an us and them mentality.

At lock, there's a healthy balance.

Hooker - NO. Full back - NO.

Other positions getting there but more work to be done.

If Billy wasn't injured would there be any development at 8 as a back up 8? Probably not.

Clifford is unlucky in that regard this AI. Yes I appreciate you don't think the results in ais matter so feel a bit more free to experiment. Debuts shoudlbt be done in the 6n except when they should and nodebuts in big games apart from the world cup. Just thought I'd see your views on whether nz have it right or wrong.

How about we quibble about whether EJ is developing players once all three matches have happened. Perhaps even create a separate thread for it?

For now, and pending the naming of the Argentina side, how do people think Saturday will pan out?
What are you hoping to see from the side selected?
How would you like to see the bench used?

Would like to see rokoduguni come on at half time and watson at full back. I'd also.like.to see curry come on for Robshaw if we look on top at about 60 min.

Quite looking forward to releasing the baby rhino which is genge as well!

You don't think England can beat Argentina even if we experiment a bit?

Argentina aren't NZ....


I haven't analysed the way NZ bring through players but I know they have broken the record for not giving a player a start.... that shows the way England and NZ operate is already slightly different.

It's embarrassing to be honest. There are other things we should be embarrassed of too.

England very much operate different to NZ.

Would NZ have kept picking Mike Brown? Not convinced...


Londontiger

Should be a comfortable win - perhaps win by 25 points.

I'd like Underhill and Slade to have good games.


Bench mostly depends on scoreline.

Like LT says review it after the 3 games.

LondonTiger wrote:How about we quibble about whether EJ is developing players once all three matches have happened. Perhaps even create a separate thread for it?

For now, and pending the naming of the Argentina side, how do people think Saturday will pan out?
What are you hoping to see from the side selected?
How would you like to see the bench used?

I want to see a physical, explosive back 5 hitting the Agrentinians hard. The backs using the ball fast, intelligently and effectively.
I want to see Slade play a dominant game at 12. Both skilled AND physical.

in the second half once we have moved ahead I want to see Watson or Daly back to FB and Curry let loose again.

I'd like to see the bench get some reasonable game time - rest the starters who need it, and also give the kids a go

Like others, I'd like to see Watson at FB

I'm still undecided whether I'd prefer to see Slade at 12 or 13, so maybe that is a shout for one of the other games

So, Robshaw also covers 8 if Hughes is injured.

OP updated with Argentina team.

Kremer at 7 stands out - he's a lock isn't he? Gives an idea to their game plan anyway

They're not playing Sanchez, Cordero or the big wing whose name escapes me .. think they've left out their best attackers!

BamBam wrote:Kremer at 7 stands out - he's a lock isn't he? Gives an idea to their game plan anyway

They're not playing Sanchez, Cordero or the big wing whose name escapes me .. think they've left out their best attackers!

6ft5 and 18 stone. Seems to have been a lock predominantly. Echoes of Pieter-Steph du Toit last autumn.

Big unit, they're going to be very physical in the pack but will miss Isa who is immense.

This should be a 15-20pt win for England really, expect us turn the screw in the last 20 as long as Daly doesn't get sent off again.

No de la Fuente is good news for us. Really rate him as a centre that can create space where there isn't any.

They look like they're going big up front which is understandable after the results in the summer. They'll have revered the Ireland game where we lost out up front and with a lack of power runners in the backs didn't go forward. I assume they'll try and emulate a little of that.

Simmonds replaces the injured curry.

Shame for Curry, any indication of the injury?

Simmonds will be interesting, never seen him play

Wrist injury on training. Doesn't say whether it's serious etc.

Lets hope Underhill doesn't get broken. The backrow is obviously very competitive and we need someone to take it to the next level.

I would have preferred for Lawes to be rested with Launchbury starting and one of the up and coming challengers on the bench.

Mike Brown? Our back 3 is a disaster with really only Watson at the required standard and he looks knackered.

Curry out for the series now.

Dislocated wrist - 12 weeks out. Real buggeration for the lad.

The amount of injuries we see in rugby is worrying.

kingelderfield I agree. Lawes should have probably been rested too.

Need to manage the workload of players even if the players themselves want to play in every game.

We've got fit locks and strength in depth so should be using them to help keep the likes of Lawes and Itoje in good shape.

Thankfully Itoje and Farrell are being rested but they aren't the only players who need it.

I hope I am wrong but Lawes might be burnt out by the 6 nations if not rested.

Ah bad news about Curry! I guess his brother isn't rated quite as highly?

At least we'll get to see how Simmonds looks at this level!

I agree I think Lawes should have been rested as well. Lock is the one position that we really can afford to rest players.