What have we learned? Ireland's autumn internationals

by carpet baboon Sat 25 Nov 2017, 10:18 pm

So the autumn window closes, and it's time to reflect.
Who's impressed?
Game plan evolving?
Depth developed?
Let's have a good freindly argument about it all.

And if you feel inclined let's have your 6ns starting 15.

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 10:43 pm

In a word (or maybe five Whistle

)

Back to the drawing board.

Overall, over the three games, and bearing in mind that the 2nd game was filled with young players, I'm quite disappointed to see the old jagged face of bang, bang, Ireland in attack and bang, bang, bang defensive emphasis over attack.
I've said a few years back that never again would I try to pretend to see the positives if the old stuff was too dominant and if I felt the team were not really advancing in formulas or strategies.
There was some great stuff during the three games.... most of it during the second half of the SA game to be blunt - but then things returned quickly to normal service. So so intensity, or rather intensity saved for the battering ram systems and, as I think Pot said about the game today,...'playing within themselves' for the rest.

We're either that good or we're not good. We're either always playing within ourselves or we simply can't sustain the game we want to play. It's still far too inconsistent for me with mostly the disappointing part of the inconsistency ladder getting the greater percentage of gametime. Some of our more 'loose' fluid moments in today's game were so tense and rehearsed looking that you felt the players were thinking about a blackboard with dance steps on it rather than feeling the game itself as it flowed.

By evidence of the AIs, Ireland are going to have another torrid 6N against sides that will continually chase onto them in wave after wave of attack. And with the quality of England and Wales and Scotland... they'll get a good few of the tries they're hunting for. We need to be a swarming, hunting team. We're still a collision and concussion team.

Stockdale has obviously impressed - Sexton has impressed (still rushing in and carrying his weight in all facets of the game). Big tall Toner is perhaps the least athletically persuasive player in the side for obvious long-legged reasons but I think he's dangerously becoming a Bull Hayes character - an undroppable go-to workhorse to collect some kind of useable ball with. Everyone else needs a tough 6N for me to have a real notion of where they are.

by Cyril Sat 25 Nov 2017, 10:53 pm

Ireland 4th in the 6Ns (or 5th if France get their act together).

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:03 pm

Ah no. We'll bang the crap out of a few of the more favoured sleek and beautiful looking sides (oh I love when that happens) but slip up in our second game against Italy. We'll be disappointed we only managed four out of five games. But Italy will be delighted they bluffed everyone in the Autumn and finally take the Slam.

by Pot Hale Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:13 pm

I think we've learned that Ireland has more players than:

Rob Kearney
Simon Zebo
Keith Earls
Robbie Henshaw
Garry Ringrose
Johnny Sexton
Jamie Heaslip
Peter O'Mahony
Devin Toner
Jack McGrath
Tadgh Furlong

And that Cyril and Gwlad must be twin brothers.

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:18 pm

Leave Cyril alone, Pot! Wink

This site is crap without a few mildly acidic foils to bounce banter off.

I guess the emphasis is 'mild' as distinct from 'wild and angry and bitter and vicious'.

by Pot Hale Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:Leave Cyril alone, Pot! This site is crap without a few mildly acidic foils to bounce banter off.

I guess the emphasis is 'mild' as distinct from 'wild and angry and bitter and vicious'.

How very reasonable, Fly.

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:28 pm

I like Cyril. Maybe that's reasonable...maybe it's not. Cool

But you can't help sensing that you like someone from their posting records. Cyril jousts of course but well, they never much trouble me anyway. Now PHILBB is another story! drumroll

by Pot Hale Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:I like Cyril. Maybe that's reasonable...maybe it's not. But you can't help sensing that you like someone from their posting records. Cyril jousts of course but well, they never much trouble me anyway. Now PHILBB is another story!

I like PhilBB - always tells it straight.

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:34 pm

There you go...we like two different kinds of people. PhilBB would drive me over a cliff with his heavy analysis of his always indisputable 'facts'.

but then again...he also used to liven up this joint whenever he turned up.

by Pot Hale Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:There you go...we like two different kinds of people. PhilBB would drive me over a cliff with his heavy analysis of his always indisputable 'facts'.

but then again...he also used to liven up this joint whenever he turned up.

Indeed. I don't think he has gone away, you know....

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:42 pm

He's Gwlad???? Laugh

by Pot Hale Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:43 pm

I think another thing I've learned is that Ross Byrne should be given a trial in one of the Six Nations tests. I'd have him in quicker than Bleyendaal. Only problem is that would leave Leinster with just Cathal Marsh running the tiller.

by SecretFly Sat 25 Nov 2017, 11:45 pm

Yep, and on the evidence of Marsh this weekend...he's a bit of a wild loose-cannon kinda guy. But I genuinely haven't seen enough of him to make a more rounded overview of him.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 26 Nov 2017, 9:49 am

I tell you what I'd like to learn. Are we (Scotland) still dark horses? Can we open our dark horses thread now??!!

What I've learned...

France are in serious trouble.

England are solid if unspectacular.

Ireland look to be very strong and have an embarrassment of riches. They just need a good full back.

Wales, I really don't know. They appear to be trying to leave the physical stuff behind, but the retention of Roberts and how they tried to outmuscle the all blacks suggests that Gatland hasn't quite convinced himself yet let alone the players.

Italy, only seen their results but I've seen nothing to suggest they will be a threat in the 6N.

My own team Scotland, look to be one of the best attacking threats in world rugby. Defence could be a bit tighter but we are going in the right direction.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Nov 2017, 11:21 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Ireland look to be very strong and have an embarrassment of riches. They just need a good full back.

Kearney has been picking up quite a bit of praise in our media - still reliable, still a big game player, still with stuff to offer after injury period. So........ Joe and our media still seem to still think he fits the system best.

If you're looking for a possible future though..well maybe Carbery and you might look at the Leinster game at the weekend and a guy called Larmour.

by **rodders** Mon 27 Nov 2017, 11:22 am

Well I think it was a solid enough Autumn, 3 wins were expected and that is what we got.

Stockdale was the big find and showed he can be a serious force at international level but Bundi aki, Conway, Ryan, Carbery, Herring all came through well and will add competition for places.

Senior guys like Stander, Henderson, Sexton, Healy, Best, Rob Kearney all looked close to top form and the pack generally was very good.

In terms of game plan I think it was a mixed bag, in that we tried things, some came off and others didn't.

Byrne, McCloskey, Marmion will probably be disappointed they didn't take their chances, Dave Kearney was poor and Farrell was a mixed back but generally it was decent enough overall.

Earls, Cronin and Ringrose will come back in so the depth looks good heading into the 6N.

by wolfball Mon 27 Nov 2017, 3:10 pm

Strenghts/Areas I am happy with
Our defense is excellent.
Scrum and lineout are weapons
We are very strong at prop, backrow and wing
Our first half play is excellent
We have an alternative exit strategy
Our backs moves are sticking very well
Our depth is the best I have ever seen for an Irish team
We have started offloading more

Areas to work on
Scrum and lineout are weapons
Breakdown is slightly worse than last year (though take out Fiji game and not such an issue)
Discipline is slightly worse than last year
Our second half play is poor
Second row, centers and scrumhalf are solid but need more work particularly the bench options

Areas of worry
2 and 10 are real issues if Best/Sexton gets injured
Fitness might be part of the issue with our second half performances and if so needs a serious look at

by Collapse2005 Mon 27 Nov 2017, 7:18 pm

6 nations is a three horse race between England Scotland and Ireland. Wales are the dark horses. France or Italy for the spoon.

Ireland have France up first away. If we get win and we should we than have 3 games home games to set up a decider v England on Paddys day.

Given that we have lost very few home games under Schmidt I like how the fixtures fall this year.

by wolfball Tue 28 Nov 2017, 6:56 pm

If you want to kill a few hours listen/watch BOD/EOS talk about rugby on off the ball. None of the soundbite nonsense you get during half time commentary, but proper insight into how they see the game and where this current irish team is. Youtube

by geoff999rugby Tue 28 Nov 2017, 8:10 pm

wolfball wrote: We are very strong at prop, backrow and wing
Our first half play is excellent

We are very strong on the wing ?
You sure - after Earls and Stockdale looks weak to me
Conway is useful as back three cover but that is about it

by Pot Hale Tue 28 Nov 2017, 11:43 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
wolfball wrote: We are very strong at prop, backrow and wing
Our first half play is excellent

We are very strong on the wing ?
You sure - after Earls and Stockdale looks weak to me
Conway is useful as back three cover but that is about it

I’d put Sweetnam and Byrne in the mix too. They’ll get better with more experience.

by **rodders** Wed 29 Nov 2017, 9:59 am

Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
wolfball wrote: We are very strong at prop, backrow and wing
Our first half play is excellent

We are very strong on the wing ?
You sure - after Earls and Stockdale looks weak to me
Conway is useful as back three cover but that is about it

I’d put Sweetnam and Byrne in the mix too. They’ll get better with more experience.

I wouldn't forget Gilroy either and boring Dave. Trimble has had a rough time with injury but if he gets a run of games could get back to his best yet.

There's Matt Healy as well, plus Fergus McFadden.

by geoff999rugby Wed 29 Nov 2017, 12:27 pm

This where I part company with you both.

The statement was we are very strong
I see none of the following as matching that description:

Sweetnam and Bryne - have potential but no more than that need to improve to be good enogh
Kearney and McFadden are squad fillers
Trimble is off form and given his age may well not come back
Healy isn't good enough - pace isn't everything.
Your say I'm biased but if now I'd take Gilroy (as the 5th back three player) the only regular try scorer at this level from the names listed.

Have a big drop in class from your starting backs - Kearney, Stockdale, Earls Bench: Conway is not being very strong in that position.

I agree with further above that the next 18 months could well see a bolter with the young lad at Leinster a very real possibility (Lamour ?) - very early days for him though

by **rodders** Wed 29 Nov 2017, 1:29 pm

Larmour looks a serious talent.

by Collapse2005 Thu 30 Nov 2017, 2:34 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-probably-isn-t-worst-coach-in-irish-rugby-history-1.3309864

Its official Schmidt is Irelands most successful ever coach.

Aside from winning double the amount of six nations tournaments than the last three coaches put together he has also won 70% of all his games eclipsing EOS, DK and Warren Gs hit rates.

The list goes on we all know the achievements.

A semi final of the world cup is the only target left to achieve everything above is a huge bonus. Take a bow Joe Schmidt.

by marty2086 Thu 30 Nov 2017, 2:44 pm

Andrew Trimble wrote:I suppose the alternative is to play the way France play. You throw the ball about and you're all a bunch of talented individuals who go out there and play some rugby. They can't buy a win at the minute.

You have to have a bit of structure. Certainly I'm a big fan of that - knowing where you're supposed to be and out-smarting the opposition. Not just relying on a talented outhalf or a couple of talented ball-carriers.

You go out there as 15 players and you become greater than the sum of your parts. Ireland has become a side that has made the most of ourselves and beats teams together, and does it in a team framework, and that is quite satisfying - to see that all come together.

There's a lot of rehearsal that goes into place - a lot of hard work that goes in there - and whenever you see it coming together as a team, it's quite satisfying.

by **profitius** Thu 30 Nov 2017, 3:25 pm

The first 40 min against Argentina showed some positive signs. The team were moving the ball wide from deep and really cutting open the Argentinian defence. The second half saw Murray box kick too much again.

On the playing front things look good. Stockdale was the stand out of the new comers but there were a few other good additions. Chris Farrell had a great game against Argentina and was involved somehow in more of the line breaks. Ringrose is our best center IMO but Farrell can offer a horses for courses selection if he continues to play like that. Aki is also a good addition (playing wise). He does the basics which is what Schmidt likes his 12s to do.

I thought James Ryan showed glimpses of what he can do. He was blowing hard against Argentina so he hasn't built up that test level fitness yet which is understandable but he didn't look out of place and was part of an Ireland pack that were well on top. I think he has cemented his place as sub lock for the 6 nations.

Front row: looks good. In the 6 nations it'll be interesting to see if Jack McGrath gets back in and who'll be backup hooker. I personally think Healy's top form is better than McGrath's top form. Also I think Niall Scannell will get some gametime in the 6 nations ahead of Herring. The Sean Cronin situation is strange and might suggest that like Zebo, he is heading abroad.

by Geen sport voor watjes Thu 30 Nov 2017, 11:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-probably-isn-t-worst-coach-in-irish-rugby-history-1.3309864

Its official Schmidt is Irelands most successful ever coach.

Aside from winning double the amount of six nations tournaments than the last three coaches put together he has also won 70% of all his games eclipsing EOS, DK and Warren Gs hit rates.

The list goes on we all know the achievements.

A semi final of the world cup is the only target left to achieve everything above is a huge bonus. Take a bow Joe Schmidt.

Besides the semi wouldn’t a grand slam be worth something. Beating teams on points difference or not beating sh teams in any meaningful competition. Also not the same.

by Collapse2005 Fri 01 Dec 2017, 8:23 am

I dont think a grand slam is that relevant. There is no trophy for it. It is also much harder to win the six nations now than it was in 09 in my opinion.

by **rodders** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 10:45 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/joe-schmidt-probably-isn-t-worst-coach-in-irish-rugby-history-1.3309864

Its official Schmidt is Irelands most successful ever coach.

Aside from winning double the amount of six nations tournaments than the last three coaches put together he has also won 70% of all his games eclipsing EOS, DK and Warren Gs hit rates.

The list goes on we all know the achievements.

A semi final of the world cup is the only target left to achieve everything above is a huge bonus. Take a bow Joe Schmidt.

Besides the semi wouldn’t a grand slam be worth something. Beating teams on points difference or not beating sh teams in any meaningful competition. Also not the same.

Yeah a GS, back to back GS's, a triple GS, winning the RWC, reaching IRB no1 and series win in the SH.

Plenty of work to do but I'd give Joe a B- so far, well done Joe.

by Geen sport voor watjes Fri 01 Dec 2017, 5:19 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont think a grand slam is that relevant. There is no trophy for it. It is also much harder to win the six nations now than it was in 09 in my opinion.

It’s only not relevant when it comes to Uncle Joe. Plus I think you are forgetting that playing the French these days is not quite the same. Joe is doing well, the next couple of years and wc will determine his legacy

by Collapse2005 Fri 01 Dec 2017, 10:45 pm

Maybe so but he is still already the best coach we have ever had.

by The Great Aukster Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

The slam in 2009 was 100% Munster in terms of coaching, made up of 50% EOS and 50% DK. Deccie took Eddie's team, identified the depth issues and addressed them. Unfortunately in the later years he wasn't able to build a new team plan to cope with the retirees and ageing players from the EOS era.

by Collapse2005 Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:37 am

I dont think he identified depth issues at all. Ireland managed to get no key injuries in that whole campaign. Post 09 when Kidney tried to address depth everything fell apart. There was zero sucession planning.

by The Great Aukster Sat 02 Dec 2017, 6:20 pm

What consistently scuppered O'Sullivans teams were injuries to his untouchables in a series of games and no-one ready to step up. It was only after Ireland's ignominious exist from the 2007 RWC, D'Arcy's broken arm, and his imminent departure that he started trying other players - Kidney not only persisted with the new guys like Ferris, Kearney, and O'Leary he brought in others to build depth. Paddy Wallace would never have got a look in under Eddie yet he put in important performances in both the French and English games - never mind his oft remembered penalty in the Welsh game.
Post 09 as more and more EOS players disappeared so did their learned structure - sending the replacement players out to 'play what was in front of them' didn't cut it against organised teams.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sat 02 Dec 2017, 8:13 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Maybe so but he is still already the best coach we have ever had.

Come back to me when we at least get to a SF in the WC and win a slam. For his two 6ns he got lucky on points difference as opposed to EOS who wasn’t on three occasions. So he is a lucky coach which was found out in the wc game against Argentina. His insistence on keeping with the same players over the previous seasons came back to bite him. Much like kidney he has been blooding lots of new players. Am hopeful it works but other than making us a very difficult team to beat I don’t see anything else.

by eirebilly Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:41 am

Well I was wildly wrong about Rob Kearney, did not think he should have been in the squad but he had a very good series and is still very much Irelands best 15. Dave Kearney, well I still do not see him being near good enough for an Ireland squad.

Stockdale, he is absolutely the form winger in Ireland and should be seen as a starter for the 6N.

Carbery, was maybe not that good but there is something in him that really say's to me that he is going to be a very very good playmaker in the future. Worthwhile keeping him in and around the squad for further development.

Farrell, not impressed. Still think the wrong Munster centre was in the squad. Would have much preferred Scannell get in the squad as I think he is definitely the better player.

Was also great to see Cian Healy back to almost his best. When on form, he really is a strong player that will always get you front foot possession.

All in all, happy with the results of the AI's but still have that niggle that Ireland try to defend when they get a lead that they think is good enough to win. SA stuck with Ireland right to the end until Ireland tore loose but I would like to see a more ruthless approach from them. Acquiring points and defending them is a risky approach I feel.

by SecretFly Sun 03 Dec 2017, 1:36 pm

Jesus, this site has been a revelation these last few weeks. I'm only now realising that billy is younger than I am! And that's the only reason I've been going easy on him all these years, coz I thought he was an nice old man. Laugh

Well that's okay by me. The Gloves are off now...and no guilt this time! *very evil laugh indeed*

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 1:36 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Maybe so but he is still already the best coach we have ever had.

Come back to me when we at least get to a SF in the WC and win a slam. For his two 6ns he got lucky on points difference as opposed to EOS who wasn’t on three occasions. So he is a lucky coach which was found out in the wc game against Argentina. His insistence on keeping with the same players over the previous seasons came back to bite him. Much like kidney he has been blooding lots of new players. Am hopeful it works but other than making us a very difficult team to beat I don’t see anything else.

A grand slam is irrelevant, there is no additional trophy for a slam. He has won twice as many six nations as out last 3 coaches put together.

He has only played 1 WC game against SH opposition. In the lead up to that he was in charge for two years which isn't enough to build sufficient depth to cover the suspension and injury list Ireland had v Argentina. All indications would point to their being almost enough depth at the next RWC. The difference between Schmidt and Kidney is Schmidt has maintained a high win rate while bringing new players through. Kidney lost to teams like Italy and Scotland (at home) because his game plans revolved around emotion, experience and intensity whereas Schmidt's revolve around structure and discipline that is easier to transfer to new players to a high level.

Statistically EOS is our 2nd best coach in recent years so he was unfortunate to not get over the line in the 6 nations alright. However, the difference between EOS and Schmidt is Schmidt has a much more rounded team that can score tries but can also defend really well and as a result our goal difference is much better under Schmidt. It is generally up there with the best in the 6N year on year.

by **rodders** Mon 04 Dec 2017, 2:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Maybe so but he is still already the best coach we have ever had.

Come back to me when we at least get to a SF in the WC and win a slam. For his two 6ns he got lucky on points difference as opposed to EOS who wasn’t on three occasions. So he is a lucky coach which was found out in the wc game against Argentina. His insistence on keeping with the same players over the previous seasons came back to bite him. Much like kidney he has been blooding lots of new players. Am hopeful it works but other than making us a very difficult team to beat I don’t see anything else.

A grand slam is irrelevant, there is no additional trophy for a slam. He has won twice as many six nations as out last 3 coaches put together.
.

But no triple crowns.

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:02 pm

In fairness you do get a trophy for the triple crown but it is also a fair bit harder to win now than when EOS or even Kidney were in charge. Andy Goode played OH for England in our GS year and we only just scraped past them.

In any case the trophy that really counts is the championship.

by marty2086 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 5:13 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:In fairness you do get a trophy for the triple crown but it is also a fair bit harder to win now than when EOS or even Kidney were in charge. Andy Goode played OH for England in our GS year and we only just scraped past them.

In any case the trophy that really counts is the championship.

Flood started at 10 for England at Croke in that game

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Dec 2017, 7:18 pm

Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

by Geen sport voor watjes Tue 05 Dec 2017, 10:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Maybe so but he is still already the best coach we have ever had.

Come back to me when we at least get to a SF in the WC and win a slam. For his two 6ns he got lucky on points difference as opposed to EOS who wasn’t on three occasions. So he is a lucky coach which was found out in the wc game against Argentina. His insistence on keeping with the same players over the previous seasons came back to bite him. Much like kidney he has been blooding lots of new players. Am hopeful it works but other than making us a very difficult team to beat I don’t see anything else.

A grand slam is irrelevant, there is no additional trophy for a slam. He has won twice as many six nations as out last 3 coaches put together.

He has only played 1 WC game against SH opposition. In the lead up to that he was in charge for two years which isn't enough to build sufficient depth to cover the suspension and injury list Ireland had v Argentina. All indications would point to their being almost enough depth at the next RWC. The difference between Schmidt and Kidney is Schmidt has maintained a high win rate while bringing new players through. Kidney lost to teams like Italy and Scotland (at home) because his game plans revolved around emotion, experience and intensity whereas Schmidt's revolve around structure and discipline that is easier to transfer to new players to a high level.

Statistically EOS is our 2nd best coach in recent years so he was unfortunate to not get over the line in the 6 nations alright. However, the difference between EOS and Schmidt is Schmidt has a much more rounded team that can score tries but can also defend really well and as a result our goal difference is much better under Schmidt. It is generally up there with the best in the 6N year on year.

You make a good point in that joe has only played one sh team in the wc. However that is more an indictment of his strategy. We barely beat Italy and a woeful French team... well we all know what happened next. Beating the abs is a major feather for him but with regards to your grand slam statement you are factually correct like an accountant concerning a trophy but saying it was easier back then is laughable. Given our current situation in between WCs the probability of oz and sa improving by the next tournament is more likely its hard to see how we will under joe. I didn’t see it this November against very poor opposition

by Geen sport voor watjes Tue 05 Dec 2017, 10:32 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

PS we still won (and the gs- something joe has left behind against beatable teams)

by Cyril Wed 06 Dec 2017, 12:19 am

Maybe you two could take this petty argument onto another thread to argue why Ireland haven't won an outright 6 Nations in nearly 10 years rather than clogging up this one?

by mikey_dragon Wed 06 Dec 2017, 12:47 am

Cyril wrote:Maybe you two could take this petty argument onto another thread to argue why Ireland haven't won an outright 6 Nations in nearly 10 years rather than clogging up this one?

10 years? The argument will be going on for another 50 at least...

by Gwlad Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:00 am

I dont think Ireland learned much this term. Next year they will compete for and possibly win 6 Nations and next RWC they will come apart again. next.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 2:57 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

So what was about a replacement diminishing the value of a success it's now about the likes of Sackey, Tindell and Flood who played in RWC finals, Goode who won a number of HCs, Flutey, Ellis who were Lions later that year not being good enough?

It's not like the bulk of the team had competed in the World Cup Final just 18 months before but it's our own fault for not playing the ABs on the way to the Grand Slam. I hope you've written to the 6Ns committee and told them to scrub it from the records book like they have with all the GS England, Scotland, Wales or France won when Ireland were rubbish

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