What have we learned? Ireland's autumn internationals

First topic message reminder :

So the autumn window closes, and it's time to reflect.
Who's impressed?
Game plan evolving?
Depth developed?
Let's have a good freindly argument about it all.

And if you feel inclined let's have your 6ns starting 15.

Cyril wrote:Maybe you two could take this petty argument onto another thread to argue why Ireland haven't won an outright 6 Nations in nearly 10 years rather than clogging up this one?

We are discussing Ireland. Not sure what your purpose is?

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

So what was about a replacement diminishing the value of a success it's now about the likes of Sackey, Tindell and Flood who played in RWC finals, Goode who won a number of HCs, Flutey, Ellis who were Lions later that year not being good enough?

It's not like the bulk of the team had competed in the World Cup Final just 18 months before but it's our own fault for not playing the ABs on the way to the Grand Slam. I hope you've written to the 6Ns committee and told them to scrub it from the records book like they have with all the GS England, Scotland, Wales or France won when Ireland were rubbish

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

Collapse2005 wrote:

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

If you are going to make that comparison for the England team (who only finished second on points difference with Wales and France) to belittle Irelands GS then you should surely do that for the other teams as well.

Was the Ireland team of 2009 stronger than the Ireland team of the last 2-3 years
Was the Wales team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years
Lastly was the French team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years

By all means belittle Irelands GS under Kidney but try to do it with a lot more balance than you have

Collapse2005 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Maybe you two could take this petty argument onto another thread to argue why Ireland haven't won an outright 6 Nations in nearly 10 years rather than clogging up this one?

We are discussing Ireland. Not sure what your purpose is?

quite

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

If you are going to make that comparison for the England team (who only finished second on points difference with Wales and France) to belittle Irelands GS then you should surely do that for the other teams as well.

Was the Ireland team of 2009 stronger than the Ireland team of the last 2-3 years - Yes
Was the Wales team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years - Yes
Lastly was the French team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years -Yes

By all means belittle Irelands GS under Kidney but try to do it with a lot more balance than you have

I believe this Irish team is stronger than 2009, but that the French and Welsh teams of 09 were also better than the current teams. I think it is pretty much equally hard every year to win a GS with luck playing a huge role for every team that manages it. The Johnson England team only managed one! We are clearly a better team than 8 years ago, from our playing style to personnel depth to results. We absolutely need to win a GS though, and I think that has to be in the next two 6 Nations.

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

So what was about a replacement diminishing the value of a success it's now about the likes of Sackey, Tindell and Flood who played in RWC finals, Goode who won a number of HCs, Flutey, Ellis who were Lions later that year not being good enough?

It's not like the bulk of the team had competed in the World Cup Final just 18 months before but it's our own fault for not playing the ABs on the way to the Grand Slam. I hope you've written to the 6Ns committee and told them to scrub it from the records book like they have with all the GS England, Scotland, Wales or France won when Ireland were rubbish

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

That England team finished second in the tournament ahead of Wales who won the Grand Slam the year before and France who won it the year after not to mention those two teams were far superior to their current incarnations but it was nice of you to point out its harder now because one player who played a matter of minutes against Ireland in a 6 team tournament that said team were runners up in

wolfball wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

If you are going to make that comparison for the England team (who only finished second on points difference with Wales and France) to belittle Irelands GS then you should surely do that for the other teams as well.

Was the Ireland team of 2009 stronger than the Ireland team of the last 2-3 years - Yes
Was the Wales team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years - Yes
Lastly was the French team stronger in 2009 than the team of the last 2-3 years -Yes

By all means belittle Irelands GS under Kidney but try to do it with a lot more balance than you have

I believe this Irish team is stronger than 2009, but that the French and Welsh teams of 09 were also better than the current teams. I think it is pretty much equally hard every year to win a GS with luck playing a huge role for every team that manages it. The Johnson England team only managed one! We are clearly a better team than 8 years ago, from our playing style to personnel depth to results. We absolutely need to win a GS though, and I think that has to be in the next two 6 Nations.

I am not sure Ireland need a GS to prove they are a better team than 2009 to be honest. I would settle for more consistency. Consistency is something that has plagued all Irish sides (except when they were consistently losing) since I can remember.

I just think that it is poor to belittle the achievements of a GS winning team.

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yes and Goode came on. Neither are great. The England back line was terrible that day. Armitage, Sackey, Flutey, Tindall, Flood/Goode, Ellis. Goode when he came on was one of Englands better players. The forwards were just as bad.

Ireland should have won that game by more than 1 point. It was a bad performance.

So what was about a replacement diminishing the value of a success it's now about the likes of Sackey, Tindell and Flood who played in RWC finals, Goode who won a number of HCs, Flutey, Ellis who were Lions later that year not being good enough?

It's not like the bulk of the team had competed in the World Cup Final just 18 months before but it's our own fault for not playing the ABs on the way to the Grand Slam. I hope you've written to the 6Ns committee and told them to scrub it from the records book like they have with all the GS England, Scotland, Wales or France won when Ireland were rubbish

The point was it was a comparison of the England team then vs their team now as part of a discussion on how hard or easy it is to win a grand slam now vs then. To my mind they are quite a bit better now both as a team and personnel. Ellis and Flutey were Lions but some of the weakest of their generation IMO. In any case this England side has more Lions.

That England team finished second in the tournament ahead of Wales who won the Grand Slam the year before and France who won it the year after not to mention those two teams were far superior to their current incarnations but it was nice of you to point out its harder now because one player who played a matter of minutes against Ireland in a 6 team tournament that said team were runners up in

Haha go take a cold shower Marty.

wolfball wrote:
I believe this Irish team is stronger than 2009

Individually I believe the 09 one was superior - Prime BOD, D'arcy, Heaslip, Bowe, kearney, Ferris, Wallace, O'Connell would walk into the current XV.

That said if they played tomorrow I would back the current crop to win, they are simply better drilled and organised and would shut out the class of 09.

I bet ROG would probably throw a wobbler and get binned too.

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote:
I believe this Irish team is stronger than 2009

Individually I believe the 09 one was superior - Prime BOD, D'arcy, Heaslip, Bowe, kearney, Ferris, Wallace, O'Connell would walk into the current XV.

That said if they played tomorrow I would back the current crop to win, they are simply better drilled and organised and would shut out the class of 09.

I bet ROG would probably throw a wobbler and get binned too.  

I agree 100% Rodders. They were the so-called golden generation. Nowadays thanks to Schmidt and the IRFU the current crop are a stronger collective and would win.

Rog had a really bad day at the office in that game v England in '09. Missed some pretty straight forward kicks.

I think if that the current Ireland side played v the '09 side SOB, Aki, Stockdale and Henshaw would run through Rog all day long.

Weirdly Ireland didn't play hugely well in 2009. Were super vs France and reasonable against Wales but were below par vs poor England, Scotland and Italy sides.

Collapse2005 wrote:Rog had a really bad day at the office in that game v England in '09. Missed some pretty straight forward kicks.

I think if that the current Ireland side played v the '09 side SOB, Aki, Stockdale and Henshaw would run through Rog all day long.

As usual you are as balanced in your opinions as an elephant on a hire wire.

ROG was not as bad a defender as certain people on here would have you think. 128 tests for Ireland and a Lions starter with over 1000 international points would not have this record if they were a poor defender that allowed attacking teams to constantly break through his channel and score loads of points.

I get your agenda, in fairness to you its not hidden but for the love of god, at least try to be balanced and give credit where it is due.

Collapse2005 wrote:Rog had a really bad day at the office in that game v England in '09. Missed some pretty straight forward kicks.

I think if that the current Ireland side played v the '09 side SOB, Aki, Stockdale and Henshaw would run through Rog all day long.

Nah, they wouldn't have time. 70 minutes of every Ireland game requires stringent defending (whether necessary or not). 10 minutes ain't 'all day' in any game of rugby

eirebilly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Rog had a really bad day at the office in that game v England in '09. Missed some pretty straight forward kicks.

I think if that the current Ireland side played v the '09 side SOB, Aki, Stockdale and Henshaw would run through Rog all day long.

As usual you are as balanced in your opinions as an elephant on a hire wire.

ROG was not as bad a defender as certain people on here would have you think. 128 tests for Ireland and a Lions starter with over 1000 international points would not have this record if they were a poor defender that allowed attacking teams to constantly break through his channel and score loads of points.

I get your agenda, in fairness to you its not hidden but for the love of god, at least try to be balanced and give credit where it is due.

if the elephant owned the wire would he have greater balance?

Collapse2005 wrote:Rog had a really bad day at the office in that game v England in '09. Missed some pretty straight forward kicks.

I think if that the current Ireland side played v the '09 side SOB, Aki, Stockdale and Henshaw would run through Rog all day long.

You can get away with one or two smaller players in the backline.
While you focus on ROG, the problem wasn't ROG.


Looking at the 2013 6 nations squad which was ROGs last year, the Ireland backline featured BOD, D'Arcy, Marshall, Earls, McFadden, Gilroy, R Kearney, Jackson, Murray, Sexton, Zebo, Reddan. They're ALL average to small backs and Ireland struggled against big backlines at the time especially the Welsh.


You also has Les Kiss' passive defence that let the likes of Bastareaud, Roberts etc build up a head of steam before ploughing through the Irish defence.

Dont criticise Rog

While Rog has been run over more than most, he isn't the turnstile he is made out to be. Your system does need to "hide" him to an extent, but I think every team should look to keep their play makers from making too many big hits in midfield. He was a great organiser and reader of the game, but his lack of size and quite poor technique let him down. Still no doubt our 2nd best ever 10 after Sexton.

Rog cost us the 09 Lions tour.

Gwlad wrote:Rog cost us the 09 Lions tour.

No he didnt

Collapse2005 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Rog cost us the 09 Lions tour.

No he didnt

Yes he did. I was there.

I miss ROG's spirrals. No one can do them like he can.

Gwlad wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Rog cost us the 09 Lions tour.

No he didnt

Yes he did. I was there.

I hope there was a nice person in the crowd to pass a few tissues to you. Commiserations Gwlad, but that's the heartache that lingers when you think too much of the auld Lions and their auld antics.

I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

Really? The kick was on but it was Tommy Bowe (who should have been chasing) that did not follow up. Not sure you can blame ROG for an entire Lions series loss, that's a bit harsh. There were lots of factors that lost that Lions tour not just one player.

Also not sure how you can see him as limited, he was actually a very attacking player, decent in defence and excellent from the tee. Not sure I have also seen a better tactical kicker than him either, he read the game very well.

Yeah because it was ROG that gave away 4 kickable scrum penalties in the 1st half of the 1st test, which gave the lions too big a mountain to climb. It was ROG not Monye that got held up over the line when he should have scored. It was ROG not Roberts and Croft that allowed Smit run between them to score in the 1st 5 minutes of the 1st test.

You guys are right, all ROG's fault.

Almost like it's a team game and you win and lose together.

Get over yourselves, all of you ...still groaning about a 4 yearly non-International, Invitational, Ceremonial, Crowing Kock, My-Dad-is-bigger-than-your-Dad, OBE-getting side's records and results.
ROG was obviously a double agent working undercover to sabotage the whole Lions jaunt as a protest for the oppressed peoples of the World and Planet 4BX T (the one around the newest Sun found that is okay for humans to be on and only 22 billion Light years away)  

Anyway, congratulations to ROG.  His plans worked perfectly and he even avoided being put up against a wall and shot for treason.  Only a Munster man can do these dangerous missions.

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

That's nonsense Cyril, it was 2001 when he got his head punched about.

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

The series was lost when the Lions gave away 20 scrum penalties in the 1st test and by letting SA mount a come back in the 2nd test. A concussed O'Gara just added a nail to the coffin to the poorly managed Lions outfit.

the-goon wrote:Yeah because it was ROG that gave away 4 kickable scrum penalties in the 1st half of the 1st test, which gave the lions too big a mountain to climb. It was ROG not Monye that got held up over the line when he should have scored. It was ROG not Roberts and Croft that allowed Smit run between them to score in the 1st 5 minutes of the 1st test.

You guys are right, all ROG's fault.

Well said

Prepared to accept it was Phil Vickery and Rog who cost us the 09 tour; I just hope Big Phil retires soon so there won't be anymore squandered tours. Thank God Gatland got some respectability back for the Lions in the last 2 tours

Its a stretch to blame a guy who was on the pitch for about 10 minutes of one test.

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

And no one giving a s**t what you think

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

And no one giving a s**t what you think

Yeah? But I am not welsh!

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

And no one giving a s**t what you think

Yeah? But I am not welsh!

Right, as I said no one cares what you think or where you're from kappisch?

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

And no one giving a s**t what you think

Yeah? But I am not welsh!

Right, as I said no one cares what you think or where you're from kappisch?

Oh dear you really don’t get it.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:I don't like to agree with Gwlad, but he is correct. O'Gara did hand the 2009 series to SA. He was a very good, albeit limited, player (especially for Munster) but he will always be remembered for that brain fart in the 2nd Test. That and getting his head punched about in 2005.

I take it back, it definitely wasn't Rog's fault.

Who gives a s**t. The lions is the welsh trying to lick up to the English. The English pretending they have an empire, the Scots complaining and the Irish making a few bob on the side.

And no one giving a s**t what you think

Yeah? But I am not welsh!

Right, as I said no one cares what you think or where you're from kappisch?

Oh dear you really don’t get it.

I'm sure in your tiny mind it all makes sense so thats ok right.