Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

NeilyBroon wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

And on that point I see that Bennett is due to debut for Edinburgh this evening. Here's hoping he goes well - and stays fit!

NeilyBroon wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

I admire your optimism but Fagerson was always destined for international rugby - D'arcy Rae (is he even fit just now?) and Murray McCallum are not!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

I admire your optimism but Fagerson was always destined for international rugby - D'arcy Rae (is he even fit just now?) and Murray McCallum are not!

Oh I'm talking long-term development! I hold a lot of hope for Nicol's future and if Welsh can replicate his Newcastle form that's another decent prop to add to the roaster.

We may even have a shot at the 2019 6Ns...

NeilyBroon wrote:if Welsh can replicate his Newcastle form that's another decent prop to add to the roaster.

Harsh.

Scottrf wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:if Welsh can replicate his Newcastle form that's another decent prop to add to the roaster.

Harsh.

Barbecued Welsh .... hmmm

Hell's teeth, Moray Low will be probably be getting recalled

If Reid, McInally and Welsh could all get through the next 4 weeks unscathed that would be super...

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:if Welsh can replicate his Newcastle form that's another decent prop to add to the roaster.

Harsh.

Barbecued Welsh .... hmmm

I meant roster - although I don't think I'll be able to eat hog roast at a rugby match again

RDW_Scotland wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

I admire your optimism but Fagerson was always destined for international rugby - D'arcy Rae (is he even fit just now?) and Murray McCallum are not!

I think Murray McCallum could make the step up. Not yet!! don't get me wrong he's not ready, but I think he's destined for international rugby at some stage. I suspect though he might need to be ready for the Wales game, as it will between him and Rae for the bench, I would imagine.

I will leave the academies argument for a different thread if that is something of interest. Rather not descend the 6 Nations thread into that. Apologies on the use of project. Thinking more of the u20s who swap countries and the arguments there.

That is a ridiculous injury for Z Fagerson. Leaves Welsh, Rae, Low, McCallum and Nicol left.

I actually quite like Rae as a bloke with a potential international future. He is still young (turned 23 over the Christmas period), has played a bit more recently and offers far more than Low. He will probably be favoured to bench purely as the most experienced youngster.

I would not pick Low on the basis that we get Berghan back for the France game and that Low has not been playing. McCallum has played a bit more and has looked ok for Edinburgh. He could do with the experience of being in the squad.

If Welsh gets injured, Wales should hammer us in the scrum for 80 minutes. I am going to that game with my Welsh gf and her Dad. May have to cancel

EWT Spoons wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

The flipside is that this is forcing us to very rapidly to build depth. Look at how much Fagerson has come on in just the last year alone.

Once all our props are fit we'll have as much depth as we do at centre (I hope...)

I admire your optimism but Fagerson was always destined for international rugby - D'arcy Rae (is he even fit just now?) and Murray McCallum are not!

I think Murray McCallum could make the step up.  Not yet!! don't get me wrong he's not ready, but I think he's destined for international rugby at some stage.  I suspect though he might need to be ready for the Wales game, as it will between him and Rae for the bench, I would imagine.

McCallum certainly has something about him and is a very abrasive player, but he's been shifted from loosehead to tighthead and back all season. If he's going to have to cover for Scotland at tighthead hopefully he gets a run of games there for Edinburgh. With Sutherland returning soon that may happen.

Hazel Sapling wrote:I will leave the academies argument for a different thread if that is something of interest. Rather not descend the 6 Nations thread into that. Apologies on the use of project. Thinking more of the u20s who swap countries and the arguments there.

I haven't seen anyone having these arguements. It's certainly not something the RFU have complained about.

Any idea when Townsend plans to name his 6Ns training squad?

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any idea when Townsend plans to name his 6Ns training squad?  

Whenever it was, I assume it will be delayed so he can try and hunt down a fit TH

The frustrating thing about the front row concerns is that the rest of the squad is actually looking pretty good just now:

Second row

Gilchrist and Toolis are on great form, and although Gray jnr isn't on top form by his standards he always raises his game for Scotland. Richie as returned for Toulouse and will be fighting fit by the time the 6N comes around.

Back row

Although we don't know what our best back row is, we have plenty options to choose from - helped by Luke Hamilton and Adam Ashe returning to play recently. Denton is putting in big shifts for Worcester and even scored last week! John Hardie will return before the 6N starts and could be an option later in the tournament. We also have up and coming youngster such as Ritchie and Fagerson pushing for places.

Scrum half
All of our players should be fit for the opener, although Laidlaw will be lacking gametime

Stand off
As long as Russell is fit we will be fine!

Centre

Dunbar is a concern, but that is offset by Duncan Taylor returning for Sarries. Chris Harris is also a regular for Newcastle and Mark Benett is making his long awaited return tonight. As long as 2 out of the 3 of Taylor, Dunbar and Jones are fit I'm happy.

Back 3

Hogg is due to return in the next couple of weeks and should leave us with everyone fit.

My team with 4 weeks to go based on expected injury returns

1 Reid
2 McInally
3 Welsh
4 Gray (I think we'll need his extra bulk to help the scrums)
5 Gray
6 Barclay
7 Watson
8 CDP/Ashe - whoever is on form

9 Price
10 Russell
11 Seymour
12 Taylor
13 Jones
14 Maitland
15 Hogg

Subs - Sutherland, Turner, McCallum, Toolis, CDP/Ashe, Laidlaw (if he's fit), Horne, Bennett/Harrris

EWT Spoons wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:Any idea when Townsend plans to name his 6Ns training squad?  

Whenever it was, I assume it will be delayed so he can try and hunt down a fit TH

I wonder if Nick Grigg knows any SQ props in NZ?

I guess we are still expecting Dell back soon as well (I realise he's a LH and doesn't fix our TH issues), given he was due back in Nov/Dec based on the last injury update Edinburgh provided.

Marfo is likely to be back before the 6 nations as well.  I realise he's injured just now and his back seems to still be playing up for him, but he's got a month before the first game to get fit and some mins under his belt.

I like the look of RDW's team, I'd probably swap Reid and Sutherland around, but that's just a personal preference.

Actually I wouldn't have Harris in the team. He struggled in the AIs, not writing him off for good, but I think he needs to play out his skin to get back in ahead of some of the players we have at centre.

Fraser Brown also not going to be picked by Glasgow 'indefinitely' due to recurring head injury worries, obviously the wise thing to do.

Hard to argue against that precaution for Fraser Brown, even if he does miss the 6N. We all wish that he makes a good recovery from this. There is a lot of life to be lived once the rugby career is over.

If Brown is out (no pun intended), Sutherland can put a run of games together, and you swap McCallum for Rae/Seymour for Visser, I agree with the 23.  

Only watched 1 Newcastle game post AI's and Harris looked good. Adds to the depth at centre. If he is in good form, he could make the summer tour.

Can someone list who is injured in the front frow for Scotland and won't be able to play against Wales in a few weeks time please? Just read the BBC article with Fagerson, Brown, Cummings all out! Wtf were they doing in training this week?? Scrum is going to be targeted big time

Likely to miss the Wales game:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Marfo (potentially)
H - Ford, Brown
TH - Nel, Fagerson, Berghan

Some big scrummagers on that list!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Likely to miss the Wales game:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Marfo (potentially)
H - Ford, Brown
TH - Nel, Fagerson, Berghan

Some big scrummagers on that list!

Thanks RDW, what a disaster! Amazing opportunity for some uncapped props to sneak on the bench and be part of the squad.

So this was Scotland's Autumn Forwards Squad, going to be quite a few new inclusions by looks of it..

Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 3 caps Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped John Barclay (Scarlets) CAPTAIN – 63 caps Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – 2 caps Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 12 caps Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 110 caps Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 16 caps Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 35 caps Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors) – 20 caps Luke Hamilton (Leicester Tigers) – uncapped Darryl Marfo (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – 9 caps Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) – 18 caps Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) - uncapped Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps Ben Toolis (Edinburgh Rugby) – 4 caps George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 30 caps Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 12 caps

Eight of those currently injured/banned - Berghan, Cummings, Fagerson Snr, Ford, Marfo, Nel, Swinson, Wilson.

But, Brown (not originally available) Marfo, Swinson and Wilson could be ok.

Plus we have Richie G, Bradbury, Hardie, Strauss, Denton either now available or coming into form.

Then there is Welsh, Reid, M Low?

So not all is lost.

When does his Nelness make a possible return?

The initial prognosis was that he'd miss the first two games - hopefully he'll make an appearance at some point

AngloBraveheart, Fraser Brown has been placed on indefinite leave by Glasgow. I pointed out that his most recent blackout didn't look as if it was from a blow to the head. To me, he seemed to drop his shoulder into the contact and then was unconscious before he hit the ground. One of the warning symptoms of cumulative concussion / brain injury is a tendency to black out after impacts (often quite minimal) to areas other than the head. I've got to say I am concerned about his long term health and would be very surprised if he featured in the ^ Nations in any capacity. I would also be disappointed in Toonie if he selected him.

So we're missing; Dickinson-Ford-Nel, Marfo-Brown-Fagerson and Berghan from the front row.
After McInally who have we got at hooker? Will Turner's ban be up? Will he have time to be match fit? Is he big enough for international rugby?

Second row isn't too bad; Gray, Gray, Toolis and the resurgent GG. That's ok.

In the backs we're an injury away from crisis in most positions.

9. Price With Laidlaw still out, who is next? Henners, who can't get a start at Glasgow?
10. Russell The drop in quality after him is vertiginous
11. Seymour
12. Taylor Dunbar is way off the pace, who else is good enough for 12?
13. Jones I think his defence was exposed at Twickers and against the AB's. Who else is in his class going forward?
14. MaitlandBack up wings;Lee Jones, Visser and McGuigan. Really?
15. HoggSee my comment re Russell.

My trip up for the Calcutta Cup may not be as wonderful as I was hoping.


Back row; Watson, Barclay, Ashe. Would do for me.

Welcome back Mark Bennett...

Sorry Jimbo, I hadn't realised that FB wasvin that position. Maybe having a couple of months break will be best for him.
We need to make sure we don't break McInallly.
We also have both Horne's, Bennett returning and the likes of Tonks/Jackson as back ups. Agree that they are not first choice, but there are some decent playets there who have done well recently, or have good club form.
I'm not kern on Tonks, but he was solid v Aus in Aus.

I'd like to see Bennett given a run of games for Edinburgh before playing for Scotland again. He was a wee bit off the pace by the time of injury and also given the type of injury (as a player whose best quality was arguably his speed) whether he can get near the level he was at in the 2015 world cup for example is up in the air. The heartening thing is that when he broke through for Scotland the idea of losing him for nearly a year was terrifying, that he would have been dropped for someone better beforehand would have been unimaginable. In fact if I'm ever having a bad day I just consider the improvement in Scotland's centre options between 2010 and 2016.

I watched the Worcester v Bath game that I had recorded this morning. Worcester well beaten in the end but Denton is definitely playing well in a poorish side just now. He scored a try, carried well and his general work rate (not something he was always known for in his Edinburgh days) was being commented on.

I would be surprised if he does not come back into the Scotland squad for the 6N based on that performance which backed up stories of him playing well recently.

I think Denton has almost, inarguably, the raw ingredients to be comfortably out best 8 however until he starts doing more with regard to breakdown and link up play I do think he’s behind Ashe and Wilson. That said his carrying is comfortably better than both of theirs, however we seem to have coped without a big carrier since the World Cup.

BigGee wrote:I watched the Worcester v Bath game that I had recorded this morning. Worcester well beaten in the end but Denton is definitely playing well in a poorish side just now. He scored a try, carried well and his general work rate (not something he was always known for in his Edinburgh days) was being commented on.

I would be surprised if he does not come back into the Scotland squad for the 6N based on that performance which backed up stories of him playing well recently.

123456789 wrote:I think Denton has almost, inarguably, the raw ingredients to be comfortably out best 8 however until he starts doing more with regard to breakdown and link up play I do think he’s behind Ashe and Wilson. That said his carrying is comfortably better than both of theirs, however we seem to have coped without a big carrier since the World Cup.

Really pleased to see Denton playing again, he's had a tough couple of seasons since the RWC.

imo he was our best breakdown forward at the RWC, remember being disappointed when Bath poached him.

Don't think he's got the ball-skills to be a top 8 but he's a serious piece of beef (6'5, 18st) who could do real damage at blind-side with a genuine open-side and ball-playing number eight alongside him.  

6 Nations Backrow:

6 - Barclay
7 - Watson
8 - Ashe

20 - Denton

Wilson, Ritchie, Bradbury

Duncan Taylor was subbed off after 23 minutes today - anyone know the severity?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Duncan Taylor was subbed off after 23 minutes today - anyone know the severity?

He is really not having any luck with injuries, is he?

Most importantly John Welsh survived and played 72 minutes in Newcastle's great win over Exeter!

According to Sarries Twitter feed it was a HIA for Taylor. Don't think he has any history of concussion, so hopefully not too bad..

BigGee wrote:I watched the Worcester v Bath game that I had recorded this morning. Worcester well beaten in the end but Denton is definitely playing well in a poorish side just now. He scored a try, carried well and his general work rate (not something he was always known for in his Edinburgh days) was being commented on.

I would be surprised if he does not come back into the Scotland squad for the 6N based on that performance which backed up stories of him playing well recently.

Just watched the highlights and he had his usual strong carrying but was also shrugged off a tackle by the Bath 2nd row that led to a try. To be fair the guy looked a cross between Gigantor and Andre the giant but an international back row should be making those tackles!

Strauss was injured for this weekend. The only good thing for the injury report so far is that there were no clear longer run injuries to the likely squad (concussion can go either way admittedly).

I am interested to see the news on Dell, Sutherland and Marfo. The injuries at prop are staggering this year. The only saving grace is that Wales have injuries across their starting 23 to even it out a bit (Warburton, Faletau, Davies, North) for the opener.

Denton is not the future for us at no 8. I only saw the highlights of the game but in those I saw him miss 3 tackles, 1 of which resulted in a try. Going forward he's a very good player but defensively he's not at the races

I think Ashe is a kind of mean average between Denton and Wilson. Wilson was a vice captain during the Autumn so that might suggest he's Townsend's first choice. The other thing is that in the commentary for the Glasgow game they frequently metioned Ashe's handling ability and if that is accurate, I can't say I've ever noticed, it would really suit Scotland's style of play. He also has very similar attributes to Jamie Heaslip who, whilst smaller than Denton, I would say has been almost inarguably more effective in internaitonal rugby.

The injury to Taylor is a concern, the more and more I think of the possibility of him and Jones in the centre together the more excited I get about the six nations. The idea of Price, Russell, Taylor, Jones, Hogg, Maitland and (fingers crossed on form) Seymour running at a defense of quick ball is outstanding. He does give 10kg to Dunbar but when compared to Williams and Farrell in the first two rounds he's very much so around the same dimensions and a significantly better runner with ball in hand. France and Ireland would perhaps suit Dunbar more, with our level of improvement we could probably bring Morrison back for the Italy game just to make the whole thing feel a bit more Scottish rugby.

When fit, I don't see much of a difference between Dunbar and Taylor when playing for Scotland. Taylor is faster and a better distributor but Dunbar is a better defender. What swings it for Dunbar is that he's far more familiar with the others due to them all being at the same club.

I’ve not seen too much of Denton since his move to Worchester, but one of the biggest issues he had at Edinburgh (and Scotland) was his inability to pass the ball. It was something he called out as a weakness himself as well, preferring to take contact rather than risk moving the ball on. As I say I’ve not seen him play much since then, but if he’s not improved on that, then I think he would struggle to get into the Scotland team, given Toonie likes his players to be able to pass and keep the ball moving. Organised Chaos I believe it’s called.

With Ashe getting back to fitness, CDP finding form, Wilson Toonie’s favourite and Bradbury hopefully finding form again, it could be difficult for Dents to make the team at 8. Not saying never, but there is a lot more competition there now than when he first broke into the team.

tigertattie wrote:When fit, I don't see much of a difference between Dunbar and Taylor when playing for Scotland. Taylor is faster and a better distributor but Dunbar is a better defender.  What swings it for Dunbar is that he's far more familiar with the others due to them all being at the same club.

I am not sure we have seem the best of Duncan Taylor in a Scotland shirt yet, injuries have really held him back since he debuted a couple of years ago. If he can just stay fit for a run of games, then I think he could own the shirt. I am basing that on what he did when he has played for Sarries. I don't think his defence is any worse than Dunbar's, remember that tackle he made against Wales when he tracked back 3/4 of the length of the pitch to catch the winger. Sarries are pretty mean defensively as well.

I guess though, we could say the same about Alex Dunbar, who seems to limp off pretty much every game he plays and always these days has a worrying amount of strapping on that knee. In the end though, it may come down to which, if either of them manages to stay fit.

I think Bradbury is well down the pecking order – on current form he’s no longer in Edinburgh’s best 23 never mind Scotland’s. He’s certainly had a fall from grace this season!

His problem has always been that he fades in and out of games, and he’s been pretty anonymous recently when he’s played for Edinburgh. He certainly didn’t stand out against the Kings like his other backrow colleagues.

What do you guys think of Vissers chances of coming back in - definitely playing well for Quins.

EWT Spoons wrote:I’ve not seen too much of Denton since his move to Worchester, but one of the biggest issues he had at Edinburgh (and Scotland) was his inability to pass the ball.  It was something he called out as a weakness himself as well, preferring to take contact rather than risk moving the ball on.   As I say I’ve not seen him play much since then, but if he’s not improved on that, then I think he would struggle to get into the Scotland team, given Toonie likes his players to be able to pass and keep the ball moving.  Organised Chaos I believe it’s called.

With Ashe getting back to fitness, CDP finding form, Wilson Toonie’s favourite and Bradbury hopefully finding form again, it could be difficult for Dents to make the team at 8.  Not saying never, but there is a lot more competition there now than when he first broke into the team.

Still find it amazing that Strauss is not considered by most people to be the incumbent. He was injured for the last tournament and is probably the strongest carrier we have.

I have him at some distance ahead of kids like Ashe and Bradbury and much better tested than CDP (how has he been playing this season?). What is the view of the mob on this?

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Bradbury is well down the pecking order – on current form he’s no longer in Edinburgh’s best 23 never mind Scotland’s. He’s certainly had a fall from grace this season!

His problem has always been that he fades in and out of games, and he’s been pretty anonymous recently when he’s played for Edinburgh. He certainly didn’t stand out against the Kings like his other backrow colleagues.

I agree he's not been at his best this season. I think some of that is down to playing out of position. Bradbury (in my opinion) is better suited to playing 8, rather than 6 and both he and CDP tend to struggle when they play in the same team.

I agree he’s probably down the pecking order just now, but last season he looked like he could be challenging. Off field stuff and injuries have set him back a bit, but I’d like to see him get a run at 8 for Edinburgh to see what he can do and challenge in the future.