Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

Considering the new evidence of his pre-existing injury, and the fact that he was being pinned down by his neck, I think it is a fair decision.

Fair possibly. In line with the laws no.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Oh wow - Scotland really do have good lawyers!!

Can't believe he's been let off.

Your having a laugh right ?

Ridiculous citing and an unusual outbreak of COMMON SENSE by a disciplinary panel.   Guess you wanted Cornel Du Preez back to face Ireland or has even he fallen off the Luvvies 'best player ever' list ?

Come on 21st stop taking anything involving Glasgow so personally or assuming I would be happy to have Wilson banned because I’m an Edinburgh supporter. This isn’t the Warriors forum!

I totally agree that it is great that common sense has prevailed, but if you read all the previous chat on this thread the issue is a precedent has been set that he should have received a ban, regardless of the fact it was accidental and in self defence. Previously any contact with the eyes regardless of the reason has led to bans.

This is massively inconsistent with previous bans of a similar nature.

Scottrf wrote:Owen Williams was banned for 12 weeks (reduced to 6) for unintentional eye contact.

Yes for eye contact. Doesn't Wilson's say explicitly that he made no contact with the eye, but fleeting and light contact with the eye area?

Owen Williams: Leicester fly-half banned for Wales tour - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/27494596

Eyes or eye area carpet. Does bring up the need for wr to do something about the inconsistency in decisions ie how they get to that decision the punishment dealt out and whether they have considered previous levels. They've failed here.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair possibly. In line with the laws no.

Well on this occasion, am happy to settle for fair.

I guess no two incidents that come up before the beak are ever entirely the same, so it is hard to talk about precedents with absolute clarity. This was a nothing event though, just two big guys grappling on the deck and I am pretty sure if Brian Moore had not mentioned it in commentary, none of us would have noticed it and the disciplinary stuff would never have happened.

Others who have had a ban though for similar kind of offences will no doubt be feeling a bit hard done by. None of that however, is Ryan Wilson's fault and I will be glad to see him playing on in the championship.

I see all your points. I still think disciplinary hearings like this should ensure to the nest of their ability to ensure its a fair process which is consistent with the laws and ascribed punishments. This time it simply hasn't happened.

Great news for Scotland going up against Ireland. The back row maintains its balance though I worry how a different ref goes about the breakdown away from home (Owens as ref suits Glasgow and Scotland's style of play).

It will be interesting to see who Ireland pick at centre with Farrell out. McCloskey and Marshall have gone well for Ulster. They will have a size advantage over Horne who has stabilised the midfield. I do wonder if Dunbar comes onto the bench at 22 instead of Grigg.

Look if they wanted to let him off so as not to spoil the Six Nations run-in to the dramatic end-game, then so be it.  Pragmatism has never been too far away from many citing commission decisions over the years.
But I've always considered a....well let's call it an 'untruth'; I've always considered an untruth to be lavish with the excuses.  I've always found that people trying to convince you that something untrue was the truth tend to over elaborate on needless detail.

This seems an over-detailed list.  First the medical issue with the fingers.  So that might have been enough.  But it wasn't enough - add in that the player was meaning to grab a shirt - when he clearly went for the face.
So not only did he not mean to go anywhere near the face, he couldn't help the 'scratching' gesture happening when he did go near the face, even though he was meaning to grab a shirt at the time (that would have mimicked a scratching gesture).

We'll leave it there so.  He's a lucky man.

Like when you want a day off from work, so have a temperature, bad throat, cough, broken arm and AIDS.

Massive inconsistency in a disciplinary decision - who'd have thought eh?

Heaf wrote:Massive inconsistency in a disciplinary decision - who'd have thought eh?

I know. It shocked me to my very core

NO inconsistency at all. The player was rightly cited. the investigation found it did not warrant a red card. End of story

TJ wrote:NO inconsistency at all.  The player was rightly cited.  the investigation found it did not warrant a red card.  End of story

That is inconsistency. Low entry point for accidental contact with the eye is 12 weeks.

Yes. Trouble being he did not contact the eye at all and only brief, fleeting and inconsequential contact with the face. If you want him banned for that then handoffs would be worth red cards

Actually they found he had made contact with the eye area. I don't necessarily want him banned but a consistent procedure.

I just made contact with my eye area, and now my eye is hanging out and I've spilled my gin and tonic.

Aren't you sorry you all made your funny, funny jokes?

accidental contact with THE EYE 12 week starting point low end

Accidental contact with the EYE AREA 4 week starting point.

4>0 do we agree? Ashton accidental 10 weeks, Williams 6...

indeed - but in this case the disciplinary officers considered the evidence and decide no sanction was fair - as is allowed in the laws. I read up on them the other day. Ashton use a load of force and raked his had across a face. I don't remember Williams case.

this is why we have independent folk to look into these things

Just thought I'd mention as I didn't want it being missed:

Position
1 New Zealand 93.99
2 England 89.38
3 Ireland 87.21
4 Australia 85.49
5 Scotland 84.43
6 South Africa 83.81
7 Wales 83.07
8 Argentina 78.22
9 Fiji 77.93
10 France 77.56

tigertattie wrote:Just thought I'd mention as I didn't want it being missed:

Position
1 New Zealand 93.99
2 England 89.38
3 Ireland 87.21
4 Australia 85.49
5 Scotland 84.43
6 South Africa 83.81
7 Wales 83.07
8 Argentina 78.22
9 Fiji 77.93
10 France 77.56

If we beat Ireland away does that put us in third?

Doubtful that we will but that'd be quite something!

Depends how much we beat them by but could do I think.

TJ wrote:Depends how much we beat them by but could do I think.

Please stop that dreaming.......

Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said "Far out, what a day, a year, a life it is!"
You know, well you know you had it comin' to you
Now there's not a lot I can do

Dreamer, you stupid little dreamer
So now you put your head in your hands, oh no!
Wow!

I'm not sure if we can overhaul them just yet, some maths geek could work it out.

However, a win would put us into 4th place!

The the following week, if we beat the Italians (so don't drop points) and England beat Ireland, we might go third then?

Mind you, I'm still hoping for us to beat Ireland, England to beat Ireland and France to beat England.

tigertattie wrote:I'm not sure if we can overhaul them just yet, some maths geek could work it out.

However, a win would put us into 4th place!

The the following week, if we beat the Italians (so don't drop points) and England beat Ireland, we might go third then?

Mind you, I'm still hoping for us to beat Ireland, England to beat Ireland and France to beat England.  

The stars would truly be aligned then!

Can't see England getting beaten again unless we (hopefully) knocked the wind out of their sales. A France victory would be the kick up the arse England need to beat Ireland comfortably at home. Leaving Scotland 2018 champions after they easily put Ireland away in Dublin.

Believe!

Greig Laidlaw is playing for Clermont tomorrow - not ideal preparation for a big game week leading up to Ireland. He shouldn't be too beaten up as a 9 but it will still be draining travelling back and forward to France and mentally tough getting up for games each week between 6N games.

Ireland will be his 5th week in a row starting and he would have 6 starts in 7 weeks (with 1 sub appearance in between).

There is an argument to start Price against the Italians.

Also Richie Gray started for Toulouse on the weekend. It is quick to throw him in...but he offers about 4 inches and 15kg on Swinson.

If we are struggling in the set piece, bringing him and Nel on would shore it up.

Laidlaw was out for about ten weeks before this, so he shouldn't be too knackered, he'll just be getting up to full match fitness.
But agree it'd be a good idea to start Price in Italy.

I'd bring Richie onto the bench for extra impact - Swinson looked underpowered when he came on against England.

Super news about Richie.

The cancellation of this weekend's Pro 14 fixtures will have helped a number of players get over niggly knocks. ( Yes FES it's alliteration on the Sabbath...get over it). The downside is that players who are short of match fitness ma have benefitted from a game. However it looks like Dunbar and Brown trained for Glasgow last week and probably would have been in the 23 for Ulster.

My reading of Toonie is that he goes along with the Ajax method of selection: you don't get picked on Saturday's performance but on how you have performed in training since then. In that sense everyone who turns up at training camp this week starts at square one. Except for Angela, obviously. Whatever he did to pee Toonie off it must have been massive.

I think Gray, Gray, Gilchrist, Toolis and Swinson will be setting off seismic shock detectors all over the world when they collide in training this week. I wouldn't like to be holding tackle bags anywhere near any of them.
On the other hand can you imagine the first scrum practice? Shrek-Rambo- Berghan looking at Bhatti-Brown-Nel and saying, "Come on then, take the jerseys off us. If you can".

Just as well we'll have Ryan Wilson running round calming everybody down.

I still think Ireland are favourites but

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd bring Richie onto the bench for extra impact - Swinson looked underpowered when he came on against England.

He'd also add a bit of certainty to our line out which has been a bit whiffier than I would like it to have been. 

Jim - #AlliterationOnTheSabbath 

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'd bring Richie onto the bench for extra impact - Swinson looked underpowered when he came on against England.

He'd also add a bit of certainty to our line out which has been a bit whiffier than I would like it to have been. 

Jim - #AlliterationOnTheSabbath 

#AlliterationOnTheSabbath Surely sinful?

p.s. that was the first time I have ever used the # key. Will I waken in the morning with a Hoxten Hipster beard a la Glove? Or just a two day stubble like Mrs Pip?

Another zinger Jim although I would fear for your life if Mrs Pip ever reads this column.

Visser scores an important try as Quins beat Barf. Good to see.

George Carlin wrote:Another zinger Jim although I would fear for your life if Mrs Pip ever reads this column.

Visser scores an important try as Quins beat Barf. Good to see.

Visser came out of the game with an injury though did he not?

He's been listed as injured in the Scotland squad - head knock

Slightly off on a tangent, but one thing I am getting a little embarrassed about is how the Anti English sentiment is creeping into the fans

Booing of the players, the talk about how everyone hates the English then the abuse of Eddie Jones

As a Scotsman who lives in England, with an English misses, I am running out of ways to makes apologies for how our nation and fans portray English people (and quite frankly it is embarrassing - and in no way reciprocated by the their fans).

I would have hoped that the Rugby community would have been better, but it seems that this is now coming into the game too

Its a lot less than it was 30 years ago IME as and Englishman in Scotland

Well this could open up a whole debate about national identity that will no doubt lead to an independence discussion, so the short answer is I completely agree with you. Similar to you I’m a Scotsman living in England (although I felt the same when living in Scotland) with an English born father and I don’t hold any grudge against the English at all. The difficulty comes when you try and find the line between people just not liking the English or anything to do with England, and those not liking the English only in a sporting sense (and that includes anyone involved in their teams such as EJ).

I’m sure there are perfectly normal, non-bigoted Scottish people who like the English but just really don’t like the English rugby team – it may be personal based on some of their players in the past (and let’s face it there have been plenty English players that opposition fans really haven’t liked!), experiences they have had while watching games against England, or just the classic mentality of wanting the big team to lose all the time. I’m sure there are plenty people like this on this forum!

You’ll then get idiots who just hate the English and anything to do with them because, well, they’re from England.

Sport is tribal, emotional and highly stressful at times and that will bring out the worst in people, especially when booze is involved. Rugby generally has avoided this kind of behaviour over the years but it does happen and everyone having a phone these days means that incidents are more likely to be made public – I’m sure the EJ train incident wouldn’t have been such a big story if it hadn’t been filmed on a camera phone.

It is worth saying it works both ways though – at the 2011 world cup I was on the receiving end of some verbal abuse from drunk idiots after we lost to England in Auckland. Conversely though I was at Twickenham last year when we were humped and all the England fans I spoke to were very gracious about it.

I just wonder, will we see George Horne on the bench instead of Price for this game? It wouldn't surprise me if Townsend did something like that.

My team to possibly put Scotland on course for VIA (victory in Rome)

Marfo
MacInally
Nel
Gilchrist
J Gray
Barclay
Watson
Wilson
Laidlaw
Russell
Maitland
Horne
Jones
Seymour
Hogg

Brown
Reid
Berghan
R Gray
Denton
Horne
Harris
Kinghorn

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well this could open up a whole debate about national identity that will no doubt lead to an independence discussion, so the short answer is I completely agree with you. Similar to you I’m a Scotsman living in England (although I felt the same when living in Scotland) with an English born father and I don’t hold any grudge against the English at all. The difficulty comes when you try and find the line between people just not liking the English or anything to do with England, and those not liking the English only in a sporting sense (and that includes anyone involved in their teams such as EJ).

I’m sure there are perfectly normal, non-bigoted Scottish people who like the English but just really don’t like the English rugby team – it may be personal based on some of their players in the past (and let’s face it there have been plenty English players that opposition fans really haven’t liked!), experiences they have had while watching games against England, or just the classic mentality of wanting the big team to lose all the time. I’m sure there are plenty people like this on this forum!

You’ll then get idiots who just hate the English and anything to do with them because, well, they’re from England.

Sport is tribal, emotional and highly stressful at times and that will bring out the worst in people, especially when booze is involved. Rugby generally has avoided this kind of behaviour over the years but it does happen and everyone having a phone these days means that incidents are more likely to be made public – I’m sure the EJ train incident wouldn’t have been such a big story if it hadn’t been filmed on a camera phone.

It is worth saying it works both ways though – at the 2011 world cup I was on the receiving end of some verbal abuse from drunk idiots after we lost to England in Auckland. Conversely though I was at Twickenham last year when we were humped and all the England fans I spoke to were very gracious about it.

In all honesty it shouldn't

I am hugely proud to be Scottish but have learnt that to be proud of who you are, does not mean belittle and offending others

Another story (true one too :-) ), is about my misses, (who is actually a 1/4 Scottish and went to Edinburgh Uni), when she first came up to met my family. Every one of them made a 'English joke' - all in light jest and usually about the Rugby team. But from an outsider it was continued and relentless focus on her being English, and even if everyone only did one joke (it wasn't), it was just a continued stream of us defining ourselves against the English - that is before we even go to a game, where she was verbally and almost physically abused in an Edinburgh pub before the Scotland vs Australia game a few years ago

My family are so far away from nationalism, and are very friendly to everyone - but it is just an example of how I do not think we even realise how much ' anti English' we spout

The more I have lived here the more I realise our national identify 'is to blame the English' for everything and take delight in everything that befalls them - it is so sad and you sometimes see the shocked faces of friends when they see just how ingrained this is within society

I wish I could say it was a minority, but in truth it is a massive majority that have this feeling, even though only a majority take it to extremes

I would prefer our national identity is about how great we are as a nation and how we get along with people - we don;t need to degrade other to be great


Sorry to derail the thread, but I am starting to hate watching Scotland play against England (Not just cos we lose mostly), especially when in room with English fans, because of how our nation comes across to the rest of the world - it is not pretty

riskysports I think in general the English-Scottish fans on this forum get on well.

Scotland do have bragging rights this year so well done.

Well obviously English people in general can come across as arrogant, especially when it comes to England-Scotland in rugby and football. England have got used to winning almost every time.

First time England have lost to Scotland in a while so it's a bit of a shock even if Murrayfield away is now a tough place for opposition to go.

That haughty attitude I guess does fuel anti English sentiment.

Can't forget that we band together in the athletics/olympics and I happily cheer Scottish athletes as much as the English ones.

Good luck vs Ireland.

I also like Edinburgh - been there quite a few times - some for rugby, some for non rugby reasons but I've had happy memories of Murrayfield on my couple of travels there - funnily enough both club games.

I do find this odd. I have a very English name and accent despite living in Scotland for over 30 years. Been more than a decade since I had ANY anti english sentiment

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well this could open up a whole debate about national identity that will no doubt lead to an independence discussion, so the short answer is I completely agree with you. Similar to you I’m a Scotsman living in England (although I felt the same when living in Scotland) with an English born father and I don’t hold any grudge against the English at all. The difficulty comes when you try and find the line between people just not liking the English or anything to do with England, and those not liking the English only in a sporting sense (and that includes anyone involved in their teams such as EJ).

I’m sure there are perfectly normal, non-bigoted Scottish people who like the English but just really don’t like the English rugby team – it may be personal based on some of their players in the past (and let’s face it there have been plenty English players that opposition fans really haven’t liked!), experiences they have had while watching games against England, or just the classic mentality of wanting the big team to lose all the time. I’m sure there are plenty people like this on this forum!

You’ll then get idiots who just hate the English and anything to do with them because, well, they’re from England.

Sport is tribal, emotional and highly stressful at times and that will bring out the worst in people, especially when booze is involved. Rugby generally has avoided this kind of behaviour over the years but it does happen and everyone having a phone these days means that incidents are more likely to be made public – I’m sure the EJ train incident wouldn’t have been such a big story if it hadn’t been filmed on a camera phone.

It is worth saying it works both ways though – at the 2011 world cup I was on the receiving end of some verbal abuse from drunk idiots after we lost to England in Auckland. Conversely though I was at Twickenham last year when we were humped and all the England fans I spoke to were very gracious about it.

I was at that game, remember telling a couple of Scots that they could have won that one, couldn't have been me cos I wasnt drunk!

I am a bit of a UK mongrel. I could represent a Wales through my dad, England through my Grandad and Scotland through my mum and birth. I love giving the English a good kicking at sport, but that's as far as it goes. That's tribal rivalry between nations. I also love and loathe Wales in equal measure. I love to give them a kicking too and personally see them more as rivals than England. However I would also have proudly played for Wales if asked, mainly because of how proud that would make my dad.

I do hate to see just how awful certain corners of Scotland can be when it comes to England and making English people uncomfortable and awkward. The SNP portray Scotland as progressive and Liberal and that might be the case in Bearsden or Stockbridge, but Jock Tamsons bairns far the cooncil estate are pretty racist (especially when it comes to England)  and it's very sad to see.

beshocked wrote:riskysports I think in general the English-Scottish fans on this forum get on well.

Scotland do have bragging rights this year so well done.  

Well obviously English people in general can come across as arrogant, especially when it comes to England-Scotland in rugby and football. England have got used to winning almost every time.

First time England have lost to Scotland in a while so it's a bit of a shock even if Murrayfield away is now a tough place for opposition to go.

That haughty attitude I guess does fuel anti English sentiment.

Can't forget that we band together in the athletics/olympics and I happily cheer Scottish athletes as much as the English ones.

Good luck vs Ireland.

I also like Edinburgh - been there quite a few times - some for rugby, some for non rugby reasons but I've had happy memories of Murrayfield on my couple of travels there - funnily enough both club games.

I should have said that no-one on here is target of my frustrations

I was born and bread in Scotland, but due to have a few English friends ended up having a very soft Scottish accent.

I was attacked twice just because of my accent while a teenager

The vast majority of fans are very nice people, but there does tend to be a default ' English joke' ready to go - which I think becomes a little tired


However, going back to Rugby, you should be judged on the last game - and Scotland are the moral number 2 in the world (well kind of :-) )

Anyway, I will get off my soap box and talk rugby again

R!skysports wrote:

beshocked wrote:riskysports I think in general the English-Scottish fans on this forum get on well.

Scotland do have bragging rights this year so well done.  

Well obviously English people in general can come across as arrogant, especially when it comes to England-Scotland in rugby and football. England have got used to winning almost every time.

First time England have lost to Scotland in a while so it's a bit of a shock even if Murrayfield away is now a tough place for opposition to go.

That haughty attitude I guess does fuel anti English sentiment.

Can't forget that we band together in the athletics/olympics and I happily cheer Scottish athletes as much as the English ones.

Good luck vs Ireland.

I also like Edinburgh - been there quite a few times - some for rugby, some for non rugby reasons but I've had happy memories of Murrayfield on my couple of travels there - funnily enough both club games.

I should have said that no-one on here is target of my frustrations  

I was born and bread in Scotland, but due to have a few English friends ended up having a very soft Scottish accent.

I was attacked twice just because of my accent while a teenager

The vast majority of fans are very nice people, but there does tend to be a default ' English joke' ready to go - which I think becomes a little tired


However, going back to Rugby, you should be judged on the last game - and Scotland are the moral number 2 in the world (well kind of :-) )

Anyway, I will get off my soap box and talk rugby again

Some would say that you're the best of both