European Champions Cup Round 3 & 4 - Munster V Leicester

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:19 pm

When: Saturday 9th December, 19:45
Where: Thomond Park, Limerick
TV: BT Sports, beIN

Referee: Jérome Garcès (Fra)
Assistant Referees: Ludovic Cayre (Fra), Hervé Lasausa (Fra)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (Fra)

For the third year in a row, the two former champions meet in the December back to back clashes. For the third year in a row it starts with a game in Limerick
2015 - Leicester win both matches on the way to making the Semi final stage.
2016 - Munster thrash Leicester in the first game, before narrowly losing the return at Welford Road as it was their turn to make the semis.

In a tight pool with these two sharing top spot, one point clear of Racing 92, getting the upper-hand in this pair of fixtures could be vital in the quest to qualify from the group. Maybe it is the pessimist in me, but I am struggling to see far beyond two wins for the Irish Province.

Round 4:

Where - Welford Road Stadium, Leicester
When - Sunday 17th December; 17:30
TV: BT Sports, beIN

Referee: Mathieu Reynal (Fr)
Assistant Refs: Tual Trainini (Fra), Mathieu Noirot (Fra)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (Fra)

Last season Leicester turned a 38-0 loss to Munster in Round 3 into a narrow win at home in Round 4. Can they do it again? Probably not but I can hope.

by Guest Mon 04 Dec 2017, 3:55 pm

In terms of pool dynamics Munster really did Racing and Tigers a favour with the draw at Castres. In effect they caused Castres to fail to win a home game (which increases the chance of them throwing the towel in) without gaining the benefit of that themselves. Now Tigers and Racing only need to share points with Munster, knowing that they can top them in the table by picking up more than 2 points against a disinterested Castres away. Castres playing Racing before Leicester is the reason I was actually quite happy with them getting a late bonus point at Welford Road.

That's all meaningless though because I'm also predicting back to back wins for Munster. Both teams seem to be missing plenty of talent but it looks like Munster's replacements have slotted in better than Tigers'.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 1:44 pm

Munster Rugby
15. Simon Zebo; 14. Andrew Conway, 13. Sam Arnold, 12. Rory Scannell, 11. Alex Wootton; 10. Ian Keatley, 9. Conor Murray; 1. Dave Kilcoyne, 2. Rhys Marshall, 3. Stephen Archer, 4. Jean Kleyn, 5. Billy Holland, 6. Peter O'Mahony, 7. Chris Cloete, 8. CJ Stander
16. Kevin O'Byrne, 17. Brian Scott, 18. John Ryan, 19. Darren O'Shea, 20. Jack O'Donoghue, 21. Duncan Williams, 22. JJ Hanrahan, 23.

Leicester Tigers
15. Telusa Veainu; 14. Adam Thompstone, 13. Matt Smith, 12. Matthew Tait, 11. Jonny May; 10. George Ford, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Kyle Traynor, 2. Tom Youngs, 3. Dan Cole, 4. Michael Fitzgerald, 5. Graham Kitchener, 6. Tino Mapapalangi, 7. Luke Hamilton, 8. Sione Kalafamoni
16. Harry Thacker, 17. Logovii Mulipola, 18. Chris Baumann, 19. Dom Barrow, 20. Mike Williams, 21. Sam Harrison, 22. Joe Ford, 23. Nick Malouf

by **LondonTiger** Fri 08 Dec 2017, 1:45 pm

We are going to get absolutely stuffed.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 08 Dec 2017, 2:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:We are going to get absolutely stuffed.

Yep.

If Munster play it clever and target Ford they'll win comfortably. If George has to leave the field it will be a record win for Munster and make our Glasgow defeats look positive.

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 7:09 pm

Not sure where all ye Leicester fans get the notion that Munster will thump yiz. I think it will be a very close game and hopefully home ground advantage will see Munster to the win.

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 7:29 pm

With Castres winning, that really closes the group up and makes this game even more so important for both sides to get a win.

Best of luck to the Leicester fans on here, ye lot are a great bunch of fans and whenever ye have come to Thomond, have been excellent craic thumbsup

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:02 pm

Savage Munster defence.

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:33 pm

Tom Youngs lucky not to see a YC at the end there. Bit of niggle and 2 in close succession usually means a YC.

Very impressed with Munster today.

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:37 pm

Trying to figure out what's been worse, tigers or the ref. How on earth he waved play on to some of munster turnovers. One of them the munster 7 was clearly on his knees and was grabbing the ball slowing it down. The ref shouted play on.

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:38 pm

eirebilly wrote:Tom Youngs lucky not to see a YC at the end there. Bit of niggle and 2 in close succession usually means a YC.

Very impressed with Munster today.

Nothing in the second one really, ref started by saying he went in at the side of the ruck even though there wasn't one. Then he went on to say it was a shoulder barge which I don't believe it was either

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:40 pm

nathan wrote:Trying to figure out what's been worse, tigers or the ref. How on earth he waved play on to some of munster turnovers. One of them the munster 7 was clearly on his knees and was grabbing the ball slowing it down. The ref shouted play on.

Munster have certainly been savage at the breakdown and I agree that they have crossed the line a few times.

Leicester are just not matching Munsters intensity for me.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:40 pm

How he didn’t give a yellow card or even red to Young’s for two yellows would be more of a concern. Well done though for finding the one breakdown where there was a possible penalty.

Leicester have been constantly lying on the wrong side slow to roll away etc etc. About five definite penalties missed

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:42 pm

nathan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Tom Youngs lucky not to see a YC at the end there. Bit of niggle and 2 in close succession usually means a YC.

Very impressed with Munster today.

Nothing in the second one really, ref started by saying he went in at the side of the ruck even though there wasn't one. Then he went on to say it was a shoulder barge which I don't believe it was either

He did enter with the shoulder, cant see any different myself. Didn't think there was much in it either but in close succession to the previous penalty could easily have seen him get a YC for cumulative penalties.

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:43 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:How he didn’t give a yellow card or even red to Young’s for two yellows would be more of a concern. Well done though for finding the one breakdown where there was a possible penalty.

Leicester have been constantly lying on the wrong side slow to roll away etc etc. About five definite penalties missed

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:44 pm

eirebilly wrote:
nathan wrote:Trying to figure out what's been worse, tigers or the ref. How on earth he waved play on to some of munster turnovers. One of them the munster 7 was clearly on his knees and was grabbing the ball slowing it down. The ref shouted play on.

Munster have certainly been savage at the breakdown and I agree that they have crossed the line a few times.

Leicester are just not matching Munsters intensity for me.

Very much agree with the latter, we miss ball carries and there isn't enough grunt at the breakdown

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:48 pm

Does the ref really have to stand right next to the 9's at the breakdown? He really blocks one line of attack every move...

by Geen sport voor watjes Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:50 pm

Penalty try just missed

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 8:57 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Penalty try just missed

Look at you trying to justify the win in many ways

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:02 pm

Tighten up the discipline Munster. Far too many infringements giving Leicester possession and field position.

Luckily Leicesters handling is not great today.

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:Tighten up the discipline Munster. Far too many infringements giving Leicester possession and field position.

Luckily Leicesters handling is not great today.

Cole having a good 10 minutes but they've Poopie everywhere else

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:16 pm

Again discipline leaving Munster in poor field position. Very frustrating. As well drilled as they are in defence, discipline has to be worked on.

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:25 pm

Well I am glad the TBP is in the bag thumbsup

by nathan Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:28 pm

eirebilly wrote:Well I am glad the TBP is in the bag

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:33 pm

I wonder if Schmidt is watching and can see just what Scannell can bring to Ireland at 12...

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:40 pm

Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:44 pm

nathan wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Penalty try just missed

Look at you trying to justify the win in many ways

The only reason we won is because Garces who is clearly a EU supporter wanted to punish the Brexit loving English team and clearly supported his fellow Europeans by penalising the nasty English for everything. You might have a Brit ref next week to balance the books.

by Guest Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:55 pm

All too predictable that Munster would dominate every area of the game. Fantastic performance from the men in red who absolutely dwarfed Tigers in terms of effort and commitment. Winning at Castres is the key for Tigers getting out of the group but unfortunately I didn't see enough today to believe that we'll see a win at Welford Road next week.

Ah well, if someone has to smash Leicester I'd rather it be Munster. Have a good night Billy.

by eirebilly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 10:00 pm

Good man yourself Fuzzy, have a night lad thumbsup

by formerly known as Sam Sat 09 Dec 2017, 10:10 pm

eirebilly wrote:Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

I think you're being generous with the word poor. That was exactly the abysmal Poopie I expected from us. Our recruitment last summer was very questionable and left us with the likes of Traynor, Baumann and Joe Ford who are all Championship level players who should not be anywhere near a game of this magnitude.

The worrying fact is our midfield defence doesn't work if Toomua is injured and Tait is about as much an able deputy as I am. At this rate I'll take my boots down to Oval Park and see if I can get a game I can least throw a pass which is more than Tait managed this evening. We have some good young development centres who would have offered more and it's too much to hope we'll see any of them next weekend.

The lack of any nuggety, horrible sods outside of the front row pains me as a Tigers fan. The Munster backrow were sensational at pushing to the limits of the ref at every breakdown. Our lack of a natural openside and insistence on playing three 8's left us out manoeuvred and gave us no workable ball from which we could run our undersized backline. Garces interpretation of the breakdown was very dodgy but one side was bright enough to exploit that and the other wasn't.

If POM doesn't leave WR with a sizeable contract offer from us in his back pocket next weekend I will be very annoyed. He'll probably leave with at least four points (because on the evidence of tonight and with us expecting no injured players back Munster are light yeara ahead) as well but we desperately need some niggle somewhere between 4 and 8.

by Welly Sat 09 Dec 2017, 10:43 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

I think you're being generous with the word poor. That was exactly the abysmal Poopie I expected from us. Our recruitment last summer was very questionable and left us with the likes of Traynor, Baumann and Joe Ford who are all Championship level players who should not be anywhere near a game of this magnitude.

TBF Traynor is like the 5th choice LH and Baumann is the 5th chioice TH you are not going to have a good 5th choice prop.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sat 09 Dec 2017, 11:46 pm

eirebilly wrote:I wonder if Schmidt is watching and can see just what Scannell can bring to Ireland at 12...

He was outstanding tonight (as was POM and Murray). Maybe if he asked for fush and chups as opposed to a batter burger he might get a game. Also BOD gave Arnold motm which was weird but not unexpected as it sticks in his craw to give it to a munsterman.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 10 Dec 2017, 1:56 am

Welly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

I think you're being generous with the word poor. That was exactly the abysmal Poopie I expected from us. Our recruitment last summer was very questionable and left us with the likes of Traynor, Baumann and Joe Ford who are all Championship level players who should not be anywhere near a game of this magnitude.

TBF Traynor is like the 5th choice LH and Baumann is the 5th chioice TH you are not going to have a good 5th choice prop.

I suppose there is hope Baumann will improve in a professional environment and a year or two down the line we'll see the fruits of the current mediocrity. Though the decision to take he penalty at the end was painful to watch. Terrible decision.

Traynor has been poor to the point where I wonder whether it would be better to give Hills the game time. The young lad will maybe be as bad but there is that chance he'll learn and develop with it. Otherwise next summer we'll be fishing around for another squad filler prop again.

by Welly Sun 10 Dec 2017, 10:16 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Welly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

I think you're being generous with the word poor. That was exactly the abysmal Poopie I expected from us. Our recruitment last summer was very questionable and left us with the likes of Traynor, Baumann and Joe Ford who are all Championship level players who should not be anywhere near a game of this magnitude.

TBF Traynor is like the 5th choice LH and Baumann is the 5th chioice TH you are not going to have a good 5th choice prop.

I suppose there is hope Baumann will improve in a professional environment and a year or two down the line we'll see the fruits of the current mediocrity. Though the decision to take he penalty at the end was painful to watch. Terrible decision.

Traynor has been poor to the point where I wonder whether it would be better to give Hills the game time. The young lad will maybe be as bad but there is that chance he'll learn and develop with it. Otherwise next summer we'll be fishing around for another squad filler prop again.

hills hasn't been that impressive in the A league, he is like 18 months behind due to a big injury. Putting him against a munster could do more harm than good confidence wise.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 10 Dec 2017, 10:38 am

Welly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Welly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Hard lines Leicester fans. The Tigers showed more intensity in the 2nd half but were very poor I feel. Very big game next weekend with a must win for them or Munster will run away with this group.

I think you're being generous with the word poor. That was exactly the abysmal Poopie I expected from us. Our recruitment last summer was very questionable and left us with the likes of Traynor, Baumann and Joe Ford who are all Championship level players who should not be anywhere near a game of this magnitude.

TBF Traynor is like the 5th choice LH and Baumann is the 5th chioice TH you are not going to have a good 5th choice prop.

I suppose there is hope Baumann will improve in a professional environment and a year or two down the line we'll see the fruits of the current mediocrity. Though the decision to take he penalty at the end was painful to watch. Terrible decision.

Traynor has been poor to the point where I wonder whether it would be better to give Hills the game time. The young lad will maybe be as bad but there is that chance he'll learn and develop with it. Otherwise next summer we'll be fishing around for another squad filler prop again.

hills hasn't been that impressive in the A league, he is like 18 months behind due to a big injury. Putting him against a munster could do more harm than good confidence wise.

Well let's just hope we have an alternative for WR. The period of time in which we had Logo and Cole propping we won some scrum penalties. When Cole went off we went backwards. If we can replace the two 5th choice options weight be able to put some pressure on up front and actually tire put those Munster backrow boys so they aren't all over the breakdown like a rash again.

Hopefully Worth will get the nod at 12 to give us someone who can pass, kick and tackle as opposed to Tait.

TV is out with a broken jaw following the reckless Munster tackle which led to the clash of heads so we're going to have to rejig the backline anyway.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 11 Dec 2017, 9:36 am

eirebilly wrote:Not sure where all ye Leicester fans get the notion that Munster will thump yiz. I think it will be a very close game and hopefully home ground advantage will see Munster to the win.

You understand now?

by eirebilly Mon 11 Dec 2017, 12:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Not sure where all ye Leicester fans get the notion that Munster will thump yiz. I think it will be a very close game and hopefully home ground advantage will see Munster to the win.

You understand now?

Yep

by mikey_dragon Mon 11 Dec 2017, 6:22 pm

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Not sure where all ye Leicester fans get the notion that Munster will thump yiz. I think it will be a very close game and hopefully home ground advantage will see Munster to the win.

You understand now?

Yep

Back from vacation so soon?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 14 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

OP edited to include Round 4.

Can moving the fixture to the East Midlands make enough difference?

Can Leicester compete at the breakdown?

Will Munster draw level in the head to heads?

Why is this match on a Sunday evening?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 14 Dec 2017, 11:10 am

Matt O'Connor wrote:We have received some criticism in the wake of our defeat at Munster last weekend.

Some of it is well directed because we didn’t execute our plans and, after such a good week of training in the build-up to the game, that was very disappointing.

But comments from pundits and the press that we failed to adapt to the French referee have been tough to take.

My view is that the laws of the game are the laws of the game. There should be no room for interpretation from any official. Or any need for teams to adapt to the way a game is being refereed in the technical parts of the game.

Not rolling away is not rolling away.

Not releasing the tackled ball carrier is not releasing the tackled ball carrier.

Putting your hands in front of the ball at the breakdown is putting your hands in front of the ball at the breakdown.

They are laws. They can’t be adapted every week by different officials.

Of course, there are certain nuances between the ways certain referees go about their business, but some things are non-negotiable around the breakdown because it is such a crucial part of the game. And both not rolling away and releasing the tackled player are two of the most important non-negotiables.

Don’t get me wrong, there were aspects of the game where we were second best. There is no hiding that. But our frustration at times, and what was being deemed legal and illegal, led to some of those inaccuracies.

That impacted on our execution and our discipline. That is for us to fix and that has been a focus for us again this week, but it was hard when the pictures that were being presented from our perspective looked to be against the laws of the game.

Afterwards, I sent a dozen or so video clips to the head of referees asking for clarification on some of the things that we found frustrating.

Luckily enough, after a result like that in Ireland, in this competition you are given a chance to put right the wrongs very quickly as Munster come to Welford Road on Sunday.

Our focus this week has been fully on ourselves and how we go about our business, how we set about delivering on what makes us a decent team and how we can be better when we get on to the field at Welford Road this weekend.

The video review from Thomond Park was painful – and we had a bit more time on it when the snow and ice kept us off the grass for a day at the start of the week – but we know exactly what we have to do better to make sure that we get the result that we need to keep ourselves in the competition.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:04 pm

Tigers Team:

15 Tait
14 Thompstone
13 Tuilagi
12 Toomua
11 May
10 Ford
9 Youngs
1 Traynor
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Fitzgerald
5 Kitchener
6 Mapapalang
7 Williams !!!!!
8 Kalamafoni

16 Polota-Nau, 17 Mulipola, 18 Baumann, 19 Barrow, 20 Hamilton, 21 Harrison, 22 Ford, 23 Malouf

by Guest Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:09 pm

Going to really enjoy watching Manu and Toomua together for the 10-15 minutes that it lasts.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:15 pm

Had to give my tickets away as busy with daughters. Pack really worries me

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 15 Dec 2017, 2:08 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Going to really enjoy watching Manu and Toomua together for the 10-15 minutes that it lasts.

That's rather optimistic Fuzzy.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 15 Dec 2017, 3:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Had to give my tickets away as busy with daughters. Pack really worries me

I feel like the forwards selection is the rugby equivalent of Jeremy Clarkson with his car stuck in the mid roaring more power and jumping on the accelerator as opposed to logically evaluating the problem and trying to fix it.

I doubt both or either centre will actually line up. Late replacements more than likely. Also Tait at fullback worries me as he neither has any pace mor much tackling ability anymore.

by eirebilly Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:38 am

LondonTiger wrote:Tigers Team:

15 Tait
14 Thompstone
13 Tuilagi
12 Toomua
11 May
10 Ford
9 Youngs
1 Traynor
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Fitzgerald
5 Kitchener
6 Mapapalang
7 Williams !!!!!
8 Kalamafoni

16 Polota-Nau, 17 Mulipola, 18 Baumann, 19 Barrow, 20 Hamilton, 21 Harrison, 22 Ford, 23 Malouf

On paper that looks a very strong team but Toomua and Tuilagi have no real match fitness to speak of. Youngs has to get his box kicking absolutely spot on today or it could be a very long day again for the Tigers.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:56 am

eirebilly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Tigers Team:

15 Tait
14 Thompstone
13 Tuilagi
12 Toomua
11 May
10 Ford
9 Youngs
1 Traynor
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Fitzgerald
5 Kitchener
6 Mapapalang
7 Williams !!!!!
8 Kalamafoni

16 Polota-Nau, 17 Mulipola, 18 Baumann, 19 Barrow, 20 Hamilton, 21 Harrison, 22 Ford, 23 Malouf

On paper that looks a very strong team but Toomua and Tuilagi have no real match fitness to speak of. Youngs has to get his box kicking absolutely spot on today or it could be a very long day again for the Tigers.

Spot on there Bill. I'm not happy with Barrow and Logo on the bench, when they came on last weekend we started winning scrum penalties (up until Cole went off). I'd much rather we started them and used scrum power to generate some field position, Traynor and Fitzgerald don't offer anything like the same scrum power and that then puts more emphasis on Youngs kicking game.

by eirebilly Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:01 am

I can understand that the Tigers want Toomua and Tuilagi to start as the Munster midfield put the Tigers midfield on the back foot last weekend but to get them more into the game you need parity in the forwards at the very least. 6,7 and 8 for the Tigers is not going to dominate the Munster back row so I cant see that happening.

I do expect a more spirited Tigers but think they have left themselves somewhat light in the forwards.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:53 am

eirebilly wrote:I can understand that the Tigers want Toomua and Tuilagi to start as the Munster midfield put the Tigers midfield on the back foot last weekend but to get them more into the game you need parity in the forwards at the very least. 6,7 and 8 for the Tigers is not going to dominate the Munster back row so I cant see that happening.

I do expect a more spirited Tigers but think they have left themselves somewhat light in the forwards.

Not sure you can say light when virtually the whole pack weigh about 18 stone. We are light on breakdown savvy which is the greater concern. We went big up front last week and it didn't work, Munster were more mobile and picked us apart at the breakdown and defended furiously and I can see the same happening again. We looked better when Thacker came on at hooker and added some guile to our forward carrying and a terrier to the breakdown, he's not even in the squad this weekend Rolling Eyes

as are none of our other opensides.

I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of Manu or Toomua fail their fitness tests and sit out this game. Still annoyed we haven't trusted any of the academy backs.

by eirebilly Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:11 pm

When I say light, I don't mean in weight. I mean more in mobility and experience. Should have been clearer thumbsup

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