European Champions Cup Round 3 & 4 - Munster V Leicester

First topic message reminder :

When: Saturday 9th December, 19:45
Where: Thomond Park, Limerick
TV: BT Sports, beIN


Referee: Jérome Garcès (Fra)
Assistant Referees: Ludovic Cayre (Fra), Hervé Lasausa (Fra)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (Fra)


For the third year in a row, the two former champions meet in the December back to back clashes. For the third year in a row it starts with a game in Limerick
2015 - Leicester win both matches on the way to making the Semi final stage.
2016 - Munster thrash Leicester in the first game, before narrowly losing the return at Welford Road as it was their turn to make the semis.


In a tight pool with these two sharing top spot, one point clear of Racing 92, getting the upper-hand in this pair of fixtures could be vital in the quest to qualify from the group. Maybe it is the pessimist in me, but I am struggling to see far beyond two wins for the Irish Province.


Round 4:

Where - Welford Road Stadium, Leicester
When - Sunday 17th December; 17:30
TV: BT Sports, beIN

Referee: Mathieu Reynal (Fr)
Assistant Refs: Tual Trainini (Fra), Mathieu Noirot (Fra)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (Fra)



Last season Leicester turned a 38-0 loss to Munster in Round 3 into a narrow win at home in Round 4. Can they do it again? Probably not but I can hope.

Really going to miss TV, awful tackle attempt by the munster lad

French ref has the D4 message here

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:French ref has the D4 message here

D4 message?

There are two games going on here. Munster v Leicester and Dan Cole v The Ref

nathan wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:French ref has the D4 message here

D4 message?

Booing from the Leinster supporters yesterday

The Oirish message - usually works esp for Munster (and Leinster- like yesterday ). D4 area of Dublin etc etc look it up !

Less of the oirish jock

I've long thought Dan Cole a rubbish scrummager and penalty machine, but 5 penalties in 40 minutes is taking the biscuit. Tigers need to get him off.

Sealing off by the munster 11 there

Been watching the game and I must say that Munster have had the rub of the green slightly with the ref but Dan Cole (whom I really like) has been very poor today with his discipline.

Tuilagi looks incredibly rusty out there today.

The Tigers have nothing to lose now and are playing just like that. Much better intensity from them today.

Massive turning point, Ryan sent off. Proper cynical play from him and deserved Yellow Card.

Massively relieved with that win from Munster.

Leicester were the first team to Munster at Thomond Park in Europe and now Munster are the first team to inflict back to back losses to Leicester in Europe.

Have to admit, well done munster. Far better at playing the ref than tigers.

Deserved win for Munster. Tigers were pretty poor, poor choices (mainly from Tait) and terrible discipline (mainly from Cole).

That was a very good result! Not many teams win in welford rd.

Munster dominated up front with Leicester's pack being a shadow of what they were. That was the winning of the game, with the lineout being the biggest difference, not the ref. Murphy doing his best to deflect from the coaching.

Tigers and Eddie Jones need to cut Dan Cole loose, he is a car crash of a player. Regularly gets out scrummaged and is a penalty machines at the breakdown.

nathan wrote:Have to admit, well done munster. Far better at playing the ref than tigers.

Do you mean Munster were far better at playing the ref than they were at playing Leicester?

I like the Scannell/Arnold midfield. Another outstanding game from POM. Might keep the blue magoos quiet.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I like the Scannell/Arnold midfield. Another outstanding game from POM. Might keep the blue magoos quiet.

O'Driscoll gave Arnold man of the match in the first leg, to think that this is Munster's second choice centre pairing. It is worth baring in mind that you have Farrell, McCloskey, Henshaw and Aki currently front line with a huge amount of potential behind them. Irish centre looking in rude health with the likes of Arnold, Scannell and Marshall not getting a look in.

I would pick Arnold over Farrell any day from what I have seen from both of them so far this season. Scannell has got a raw deal for Ireland. Maybe it’s his accent joe doesn’t understand.

Also BOD is a langer and clueless as a pundit. Arnold played well last week but wasn’t motm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I would pick Arnold over Farrell any day from what I have seen from both of them so far this season. Scannell has got a raw deal for Ireland. Maybe it’s his accent joe doesn’t understand.

Also BOD is a langer and clueless as a pundit. Arnold played well last week but wasn’t motm

He's in exalted company then, coz I think wasn't Quinlan told he was pretty much a langer and clueless as a pundit by one of his very own past Munster team mates?

We all know why Irish 'pundits' are picked.  They talk...shyte mostly, yes...but they do talk.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I've long thought Dan Cole a rubbish scrummager and penalty machine, but 5 penalties in 40 minutes is taking the biscuit.  Tigers need to get him off.

One of the worst scrummagers (not including academy players) I've seen in a Tigers shirt is at loosehead. It's not a surprise we struggled and it's no surprise Cole pushed to the limit to try and rescue the situation. I'm pretty sure I picked out the lock combination as being not the best at scrum time as well. The whole pack selection was poor so the result is little surprise.

To call Cole a poor scrummager is ridiculous. Discipline has been an issue before though.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I've long thought Dan Cole a rubbish scrummager and penalty machine, but 5 penalties in 40 minutes is taking the biscuit.  Tigers need to get him off.

One of the worst scrummagers (not including academy players) I've seen in a Tigers shirt is at loosehead. It's not a surprise we struggled and it's no surprise Cole pushed to the limit to try and rescue the situation. I'm pretty sure I picked out the lock combination as being not the best at scrum time as well. The whole pack selection was poor so the result is little surprise.

To call Cole a poor scrummager is ridiculous. Discipline has been an issue before though.

Pretty sure I watched Tom Court of all people scrummage him off the park in the 2013-2014 season. Also pretty sure I've been watching him a lot at international level, he is a terrible scrummager.

He's on the downward slope of his career now but he's still one of the best tight heads around.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I've long thought Dan Cole a rubbish scrummager and penalty machine, but 5 penalties in 40 minutes is taking the biscuit.  Tigers need to get him off.

One of the worst scrummagers (not including academy players) I've seen in a Tigers shirt is at loosehead. It's not a surprise we struggled and it's no surprise Cole pushed to the limit to try and rescue the situation. I'm pretty sure I picked out the lock combination as being not the best at scrum time as well. The whole pack selection was poor so the result is little surprise.

To call Cole a poor scrummager is ridiculous. Discipline has been an issue before though.

Pretty sure I watched Tom Court of all people scrummage him off the park in the 2013-2014 season.  Also pretty sure I've been watching him a lot at international level, he is a terrible scrummager.

You've seen him keep his shirt at international level go on two Lions tours and win penalties and keep the scrum steady for years and that's an indication of being a bad scrummager? You aren't going to select him for his carrying game. Ulster smashed us off the park with a far more physical pack for a couple of seasons in the HEC. It took us some time to cotton on and now MOC has gone too far the other way and selects big backrows against Irish teams .

Artful_Dodger wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:I've long thought Dan Cole a rubbish scrummager and penalty machine, but 5 penalties in 40 minutes is taking the biscuit.  Tigers need to get him off.

One of the worst scrummagers (not including academy players) I've seen in a Tigers shirt is at loosehead. It's not a surprise we struggled and it's no surprise Cole pushed to the limit to try and rescue the situation. I'm pretty sure I picked out the lock combination as being not the best at scrum time as well. The whole pack selection was poor so the result is little surprise.

To call Cole a poor scrummager is ridiculous. Discipline has been an issue before though.

Pretty sure I watched Tom Court of all people scrummage him off the park in the 2013-2014 season.  Also pretty sure I've been watching him a lot at international level, he is a terrible scrummager.

Tom Court was pretty good at loosehead though. To say that Dan Cole is a terrible scrummager is one of the most ridiculous thing i have read on here.

Poor game from Cole but to suggest he's a poor scrummager is simply laughable.

Well done again to Munster, soaked up the early pressure and allowed Tigers to self-destruct before going on to dominate the game. Text book away European win and well deserving of being the first time to beat Tigers back to back in Europe.  

Going out of Europe early probably the best for Tigers, though not financially. No matter what the board have always said Tigers are desperate for a transitional year in which the coach is allowed to actually build for the future rather than scraping into the playoffs.

I'm not even going to spend the time bringing up his penalties stats in the last few 6N, all I'll say is that I hope Eddie Jones and Tigers persist with him and I'll leave it there.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I'm not even going to spend the time bringing up his penalties stats in the last few 6N, all I'll say is that I hope Eddie Jones and Tigers persist with him and I'll leave it there.

Tigers have little choice. The other tighthead options are injured and Baumann on the bench was signed as a project not as someone ready for the first team. As we've said discipline can be an issue, common sense does tend to get shelved if his pack is going backwards.

Cole rarely gets bettered in the scrum, that's what you primarily want in a TH. Cole aside, is was a poor scrummaging unit for Tigers though. Youngs and Traynor are not strong in this area.

What worries me is these bad games in the loose are becoming more and more common for Cole, he's a liability at times.

Is he generally a bit dense? He really doesn't seem to understand the rules at times.

Agree with the above, Cole is not a bad scrummager - but there did appear to be a general bad day at the office for the Tigers pack as a whole. Who was locking and flanking on Coles side of the scrum behind him?
A TH is effectively scrumming against the oppo Hooker and LH. So generally the best you can ask of a TH is to hold his own, while there is more opportunity for a LH to manipulate on the other side. Therefore generally I would expect the more solid scrummagers 'or weighty' of you want to go down that route on the right of the pack.

I cant help feeling that Tigers are really missing a 'Slater' in these kinds of matches.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cole rarely gets bettered in the scrum, that's what you primarily want in a TH. Cole aside, is was a poor scrummaging unit for Tigers though. Youngs and Traynor are not strong in this area.

What worries me is these bad games in the loose are becoming more and more common for Cole, he's a liability at times.

Is he generally a bit dense? He really doesn't seem to understand the rules at times.

It's as I said above he's just too competitive. The more under pressure the pack is the more he tries to make a difference particularly if those around him aren't. I think it's being magnified by the coaches appalling tactics in the forwards for these double headers. I won't rant further on the pack selection and tactics failings but the writing was on the wall pre kick off.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

It's as I said above he's just too competitive. The more under pressure the pack is the more he tries to make a difference particularly if those around him aren't.

Correct.... or rather, I share the view. When a specific player kinda stands out in the area of too many errors through a game, I find it's usually because said player is over-reaching/trying too hard, over anxious to show that they are a central cog. It can be a fragile place to be in a side or sides (club + International) that always demand the best or else they have someone else to choose or buy in. Some players try to shoulder too much work/activity to keep themselves in the frame.

Tigers aren't what they were but that is a tremendous result from Munster.

I hope the IRFU break the back for Stander, he and O'Mahoney were superb, as was Dave Foley.

A super couple of weekends for the Irish teams but this was the most arguably impressive performance of the lot.

rodders wrote:Tigers aren't what they were but that is a tremendous result from Munster.

I hope the IRFU break the back for Stander, he and O'Mahoney were superb, as was Dave Foley.

A super couple of weekends for the Irish teams but this was the most arguably impressive performance of the lot.

The IRFU said to Stander pre-game:  "Okay smartazz, show us how much you're worth in the next game."

*GULP*  "We can't afford that kinda dough!  Why didn't you play more like you did at the start of the season?"

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:Tigers aren't what they were but that is a tremendous result from Munster.

I hope the IRFU break the back for Stander, he and O'Mahoney were superb, as was Dave Foley.

A super couple of weekends for the Irish teams but this was the most arguably impressive performance of the lot.

The IRFU said to Stander pre-game:  "Okay smartazz, show us how much you're worth in the next game."

*GULP*  "We can't afford that kinda dough!  Why didn't you play more like you did at the start of the season?"

Jamie Heaslip's cafe should be sponsoring his wages.

rodders wrote:Tigers aren't what they were but that is a tremendous result from Munster.

I hope the IRFU break the back for Stander, he and O'Mahoney were superb, as was Dave Foley.

A super couple of weekends for the Irish teams but this was the most arguably impressive performance of the lot.

And what of the little dynamo Cloete. Watch him outpace Johnny May.

https://youtu.be/1_pmzoBV0RY?t=10m3s

Great run from May though.

He's some signing Sin, where'd you find him from?

rodders wrote:He's some signing Sin, where'd you find him from?

Sri Lanka

rodders wrote:He's some signing Sin, where'd you find him from?

Yea. Sri Lanka Seemingly there is a great rugby buzz there. 10K at matches.

Rassie found him. He has a SA 'A' cap. I imagine he was too small for a Bok backrow.

Rassie sure has brought some gems to Munster - Kleyn, Cloete, Taute, Rhys Marshall.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:He's some signing Sin, where'd you find him from?

Yea. Sri Lanka  Seemingly there is a great rugby buzz there. 10K at matches.

Rassie found him. He has a SA 'A' cap. I imagine he was too small for a Bok backrow.

Rassie sure has brought some gems to Munster - Kleyn, Cloete, Taute, Rhys Marshall.

Does that A cap tie him to SA?

carpet baboon wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:He's some signing Sin, where'd you find him from?

Yea. Sri Lanka  Seemingly there is a great rugby buzz there. 10K at matches.

Rassie found him. He has a SA 'A' cap. I imagine he was too small for a Bok backrow.

Rassie sure has brought some gems to Munster - Kleyn, Cloete, Taute, Rhys Marshall.

Does that A cap tie him to SA?

I don't think so as it was against a French Barbarian team. As far as I know the team that they play has to be a designated 1st/2nd team (i.e., Wolfhounds v Saxons). As far a I know, France's U20s team is their designated 2nd team.

He is on a 3 year contract which suggests that he probably will be Ireland eligible.

All I can say is that he is some find and really balances Munster's backrow.

He looks like would Michael Hooper with his pants set on fire.

Was very impressive over the two games. Horrible and Niggly but also dynamic and mobile. I suspect a few scouts will be citing him as a reason they need a trip to Sri Lanka sometime in the new year. In three years he'll be 29, will Ireland be that interested in integrating a 29 year old into rhe national team midway through a world cup cycle knowing he'll probably only be good for the one tilt at the big one?

Sin é wrote:

He is on a 3 year contract which suggests that he probably will be Ireland eligible.

Will he not have to stick around for two more years after that or has he beaten that new regime to the starting line?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Was very impressive over the two games. Horrible and Niggly but also dynamic and mobile. I suspect a few scouts will be citing him as a reason they need a trip to Sri Lanka sometime in the new year. In three years he'll be 29, will Ireland be that interested in integrating a 29 year old into rhe national team midway through a world cup cycle knowing he'll probably only be good for the one tilt at the big one?

He also has about 30 Super Rugby caps (played for the Argentinians as well as a load of the SA teams).

Rhys Marshall (the hooker in the game in Thomond Park) is another one with a great story. He was a shepperd on this 5,000 acre kiwi farm who didn't get his contract renewed with the Chiefs before Munster came up.

Munster must have the best selection of hookers in any country, let alone club, in the world (Sherry, Duncan Casey, Neil Scannell, Rhys Marshall and now Kevin O'Byrne). They can all throw straight as well, which is no surprise when your coach is Jerry Flannery.

Anyone see this before? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HsleEP7p4A

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

He is on a 3 year contract which suggests that he probably will be Ireland eligible.

Will he not have to stick around for two more years after that or has he beaten that new regime to the starting line?

I don't think that has come in yet, so he should be eligible I think.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

He is on a 3 year contract which suggests that he probably will be Ireland eligible.

Will he not have to stick around for two more years after that or has he beaten that new regime to the starting line?

I don't think that has come in yet, so he should be eligible I think.

31 of this month isn't it? From then on it's five years.

Tuilagi cited

http://rugbylad.ie/watch-manu-tuilagi-cited-for-this-dangerous-tackle-on-munsters-chris-cloete/

I cannot for the life of me see anything wrong here. Seems to be a waste of time...