Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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Jeez - O’Donoghue eeled his way through that maul and caught Herring.

In response to the Last Kissmas question Les said the team would just have to keep winning then...

The reason why Ulster aren't winning trophies has been discussed at length on these pages, but one of the core reasons is hardly touched upon, namely the Ulster Branch is run by amateurs - some of whom played rugby in a School's cup campaign when a try was worth three points. Club Rugby in Ulster is dying on it's feet, as the transition from Schools to Clubs declines, meaning fewer players of lower standard playing with a lower standard of officiating.

What has that to do with Les Kiss? The Director of Rugby shouldn't have the time for coaching the professional team, because the role is far more extensive and political than that. The role involves getting ears and eyes at the grassroots level to identify talent and weaknesses in coaching or structure through the willing amateurs so that the Branch including the professional team can prosper. Les is a hands-on rugby coach and that old habit hasn't died hard or soft for that matter. Aaron Dundon should be getting pilloried for the forward performance over the last few games, yet Kiss is the one facing the flak. While it is laudable that he takes responsibility, I'd much rather ensure that the coaches responsible took ...er responsibility, and Les concentrated on his actual job. Why Barakat was first allowed to go and secondly not replaced is anybody's guess, but maybe had something to do with Les looking for a coaching role?

The Ulster Branch is a pyramid with the Pro team at the top, but quickly drops into club and schools level and that is the area that the DoR should be addressing. Maybe Kiss doesn't like the idea of schmoozing with the blazers, but they are the foundation that needs to be built upon. If Les hasn't done so then he is much easier to topple.

The Great Aukster wrote:In response to the Last Kissmas question Les said the team would just have to keep winning then...

The reason why Ulster aren't winning trophies has been discussed at length on these pages, but one of the core reasons is hardly touched upon, namely the Ulster Branch is run by amateurs - some of whom played rugby in a School's cup campaign when a try was worth three points. Club Rugby in Ulster is dying on it's feet, as the transition from Schools to Clubs declines, meaning fewer players of lower standard playing with a lower standard of officiating.

What has that to do with Les Kiss? The Director of Rugby shouldn't have the time for coaching the professional team, because the role is far more extensive and political than that. The role involves getting ears and eyes at the grassroots level to identify talent and weaknesses in coaching or structure through the willing amateurs so that the Branch including the professional team can prosper. Les is a hands-on rugby coach and that old habit hasn't died hard or soft for that matter. Aaron Dundon should be getting pilloried for the forward performance over the last few games, yet Kiss is the one facing the flak. While it is laudable that he takes responsibility, I'd much rather ensure that the coaches responsible took ...er responsibility, and Les concentrated on his actual job. Why Barakat was first allowed to go and secondly not replaced is anybody's guess, but maybe had something to do with Les looking for a coaching role?

The Ulster Branch is a pyramid with the Pro team at the top, but quickly drops into club and schools level and that is the area that the DoR should be addressing. Maybe Kiss doesn't like the idea of schmoozing with the blazers, but they are the foundation that needs to be built upon. If Les hasn't done so then he is much easier to topple.

Am basically in total agreement with you Aukster. From my perspective it's Kiss's job to extradite himself from the coaching role, or stop himself getting pulled down into it. He's had nearly 3 years to realise that.

marty2086 wrote:I think you are all reading too much into things, Gibbes has been shaking his head most of the season and he had a face like thunder all game. Given it was the unit he is responsible for that was severely malfunctioning and the main reason for the first half scoreline then you can't blame him for being pi$$ed

BBC also said Gibbes absence in Galway may have been a contributing factor to the performance, does that mean he's more hands on than Kiss?

Anyone know why Gibbes was back in NZ?

The problem for the first half mess was selection - that is in Kisses remit
Picking two totally undercooked props was stupid

Gibbes was at home because Ulster rugby decided to allow anyone from the SH extended leave and miss the Connacht game
A number of players went home as well
The top of Ulster rugby decided to allow the possibility of a defeat against Connaught - Logan and Kiss were privy to that decision

Redman, Kiss has been the defence coach for the last year. It was Joe Barakat for the previous 18 months. Maybe the options out there aren't worth

GA, Kiss doesn't have the same responsibilities as other DoRs since he has Bryn looking after the recruitment end. From what Willie Anderson said last month, it does sound like Les has identified a number of deficiencies in the setup, have we ever had as many players in the academy from outside the so called top schools? More are coming through from the club game which long term will hopefully push more young players towards the club game, which could be a catalyst for change in the schools cup.

I agree about Dundon and would put Gibbes in there too, after all he is responsible for the forwards and our lineout has been poor all season and rarely do we get clean ball from it.

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I think you are all reading too much into things, Gibbes has been shaking his head most of the season and he had a face like thunder all game. Given it was the unit he is responsible for that was severely malfunctioning and the main reason for the first half scoreline then you can't blame him for being pi$$ed

BBC also said Gibbes absence in Galway may have been a contributing factor to the performance, does that mean he's more hands on than Kiss?

Anyone know why Gibbes was back in NZ?

The problem for the first half mess was selection - that is in Kisses remit
Picking two totally undercooked props was stupid

Gibbes was at home because Ulster rugby decided to allow anyone from the SH extended leave and miss the Connacht game
A number of players went home as well
The top of Ulster rugby decided to allow the possibility of a defeat against Connaught - Logan and Kiss were privy to that decision

Im aware of who picks the team but was he told they were good to go by those who know better or was it necessary rotation to prevent Herbst or Black being flogged? It seems the rotation policy has been to split the best available 15 and play some against Connacht and some against Munster. Im sure the plan was to get at least 8 points from both games but any rotation is a gamble and it didn't pay off. How many coaches have we slated for not rotating?

I knew Piutau went home and Im sure that journey played no part in his performance against Munster but how many head coaches take a break mid season?

Interesting to hear Bryn's thoughts on the squad http://ulsterrugby.com/news/16872#.WkzsaDfLhPY

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I think you are all reading too much into things, Gibbes has been shaking his head most of the season and he had a face like thunder all game. Given it was the unit he is responsible for that was severely malfunctioning and the main reason for the first half scoreline then you can't blame him for being pi$$ed

BBC also said Gibbes absence in Galway may have been a contributing factor to the performance, does that mean he's more hands on than Kiss?

Anyone know why Gibbes was back in NZ?

The problem for the first half mess was selection - that is in Kisses remit
Picking two totally undercooked props was stupid

Gibbes was at home because Ulster rugby decided to allow anyone from the SH extended leave and miss the Connacht game
A number of players went home as well
The top of Ulster rugby decided to allow the possibility of a defeat against Connaught - Logan and Kiss were privy to that decision

Im aware of who picks the team but was he told they were good to go by those who know better or was it necessary rotation to prevent Herbst or Black being flogged? It seems the rotation policy has been to split the best available 15 and play some against Connacht and some against Munster. Im sure the plan was to get at least 8 points from both games but any rotation is a gamble and it didn't pay off. How many coaches have we slated for not rotating?

I knew Piutau went home and Im sure that journey played no part in his performance against Munster but how many head coaches take a break mid season?

Kiss has been here the last 2 weeks watching McCall and Ah You train not Gibbes
He was in a better position to see if they were up to speed
Black has not been flogged - only start 3 games in over 2 months
Kane, I believe, was available and could have started rather than ah You
Warwick would have ben a better bet than McCall

You keeping going on about rotation and flogging players - this is not a rotation issue
We got away with it but the sensible thing would have been to play the strongest available team at home and the 2nd XV away.
I don't blame Gibbes for going home given the higher ups in the club told 30 - 40% of the staff gone home and forget the Connacht game if you want to.
If they don't take the game seriously why should he ?

geoff there are more than Kiss and Gibbes on the coaching ticket, there is also a scrum coach and S&C team both well placed to advise on how two props are scrummaging and if they are fit enough to play. If Kiss picked the two knowing they weren't up to the job then he deserves criticism but do we know thats the case?

So rotating players isn't a rotation issue?
After Munster, there are 5 days to the Leinster game when the first XV are needed, then we have the European double header

What exactly is wrong with sending staff home? If they have their job done then it shouldn't be a problem? If Gibbes absence was agreed well in advance then it wasn't a factor, it may have played a part in the decision to allow them to go home

neilthom7 wrote:Interesting to hear Bryn's thoughts on the squad http://ulsterrugby.com/news/16872#.WkzsaDfLhPY

Interesting indeed! So it's Bryn who holds the purse strings and not Logan. He is the one responsible for the squad and coaches, including letting Barakat go and not replacing him.

The Great Aukster wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Interesting to hear Bryn's thoughts on the squad http://ulsterrugby.com/news/16872#.WkzsaDfLhPY

Interesting indeed! So it's Bryn who holds the purse strings and not Logan. He is the one responsible for the squad and coaches, including letting Barakat go and not replacing him.

He did make a distinct difference in that line, he said hes responsible for the squad but made sure to say that he was responsible for negotiating contracts with coaches, not that he choose if they stayed or went, i would think that would be kiss or logan

So is anyone going to discuss the game this weekend or are we actively avoiding the issue? I can't imagine anything less than a complete spanking but we'll need our best XV out with the big European games coming up. Will we see a similar selection to last week? Is it true that Cooney will be rested and Leali'ifano has broken ribs yet is still playing on.
More importanly is KOTH from t'other forum correct with this selection?

Black
Best
Ah you
Browne
Henderson
Reidy
Rea
Deysel
Stewart
Leali'fano
Stockdale
Mccloskey
Cave
Trimble
Piutau

If that team is accurate I just don't know what we're trying to achieve. Why play Henderson and risk an injury, why flog Lealii'fano and Piutau with both having seen significant gametime recently and have taken some knocks.

If you're going to throw the game, then throw the game. Connacht showed what you can expect when you send the message to the team that it's ok to lose. Play a team entirely of youngsters, at least that way they have something to prove.

That team looks to be selected to lose but not get hammered, while risking our chances in the following 2 weeks.

Well I hope he's heard wrong, he usually gets things fairly accurate though which fills me with dread. It's a shame we're a long, long way away from making Leinster feel the same.

Outside of Ah You its not a bad team, the only issues would be Best and Browne coming in without any real game time. Its a big test for Stewart but its a great show of faith in him and could be the making of him

marty2086 wrote:Outside of Ah You its not a bad team, the only issues would be Best and Browne coming in without any real game time. Its a big test for Stewart but its a great show of faith in him and could be the making of him

It'a Ah You, Deysel and Browne worry me most but if it's true that Leali'ffano is carrying a bad injury or is actually going to be out altogether then Young Stewart could find himself badly exposed without any kind of experienced help at half back. It'll be compounded if the pack are getting unpacked. I am not very optimistic am I????

Also, when's Lowry going to be given a wee chance? Could he be any worse than the alternatives on the squad after Leali'ifano goes?

Deysel wasn't as bad as some have made out, he was one of the few actually trying to take the game to Munster in the first half and was working at the breakdown when no one else was.

Browne was always reliable before until he fell out of favour

Ulster did a Q&A with Lowry yesterday, he's only in his first year in the academy. Its a big ask putting him in early unless he's an exceptional talent

http://ulsterrugby.com/news/16828.php#.Wk4nRGd1SM8

marty2086 wrote:Deysel wasn't as bad as some have made out, he was one of the few actually trying to take the game to Munster in the first half and was working at the breakdown when no one else was.

Browne was always reliable before until he fell out of favour

Ulster did a Q&A with Lowry yesterday, he's only in his first year in the academy. Its a big ask putting him in early unless he's an exceptional talent

http://ulsterrugby.com/news/16828.php#.Wk4nRGd1SM8

Browne has been reliable indeed but against Leinster we need better than that. Deysel.......well we'll have to differ on that one Marty. For me he's twice the size of Diack with half the impact. I hope he can prove me wrong.
Putting Lowry out there would be a huge ask but then again putting Paddy Jackson out in a final baptised him in fire too. I know Geoff says he's not ready but neither's Nelson and we need Cooney at 9 not 10.

What about Curtis? How's he looking?

Everyone I hear from says Lowry is the real deal. Has all the skills to make it to the very top. The problem is he's very short for a modern rugby player. I saw on the other forum he's 5'5 / 5'6.

If you're good enough, you're old enough .... but if you're good enough, are you tall enough?

The days of hiding on the wing are long gone, the worry has to be he has a certain ceiling on how far he can go.

Half the impact of Diack? Surely equipment has yet to be developed that measures such small forces.

Pete,Jackson had a year and a half in the team and was older, he had played his way into the team and had started in the semi too. Lowry is a case of lets try and see, even though McPhillips is further on than Lowry

Redman, Ulster list Lowry at 1.7m which is indeed 5'5/5'6 but Jacksons listed at 5'8 and George Ford is listed at 5'10 and plenty have questioned his size to play at the top

Jackson is 5'11 on Wikipedia though I remember I heard that back in the day everyone at Ulster was told to lie about their height on the stats.

It's an open ended question anyway. I don't know if it'll be enough of a hindrance to hold him back, but it is a worry given the modern game.

I saw the Quins game at the weekend at they just had Roberts running at the Northampton 10 until he was crunched.

Ha, 6'1. Yeah right.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1680&bih=944&ei=dUBOWu_yMOmLjwTl0Z-wBw&q=stuart+olding+height&oq=stuart+olding+height&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i30k1.503125.504793.0.505003.13.8.0.0.0.0.468.645.0j1j4-1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..12.1.176....0.ewZBtyu-2dM

Like I said. Ulster told the players to add a few inches.

Redman wrote:That team looks to be selected to lose but not get hammered, while risking our chances in the following 2 weeks.  

Lealiifano has potentially three games left, Ulster have no replacement to win a trophy so the bare minimum requirement of this season is to secure a ERCC qualification spot for next year. The Leinster game is therefore the most important game this month, as even a LBP could make all the difference at the end of the season. Whether Ulster get knocked out of the Cup at the pool stage or the Q/F is inconsequential in comparison.
Ulster have Edinburgh at home on the 16th February then:
Scarlets away; Glasgow home; Blues away; Edinburgh away; Ospreys home and Munster away.
Edinburgh have:
Dragons away; Munster home; Connacht away; Ulster home; Scarlets home; Glasgow home.
Ulster have a much tougher run-in and Edinburgh are looking stronger as the season progresses especially up front where Ulster have struggled. Edinburgh could easily close the current 8 point gap and with the likelihood Glasgow would have already topped their conference before the last game, and Munster could be scrapping for 2nd place, Edinburgh would have to be favourites to beat Ulster to third spot in Conference B.

Short players = more penalties our way for high tackles

Jackson is 5'10", Rob Lyttle 5'9", Paul Marshall 5'7" - Lowry looks smaller than Marshall, and looked positively titchy in the SC final.

There have have always been Academy players hyped up as having all the skills - remember Sean O'Hagan (now with Richmond)? Then there was those that had all the skills in their own mind but not everyone agreed - James McKinney. Then there were those that had none of the skills in their own mind but not everyone agreed - Niall O'Connor. Then there were those that actually had all the skills but not everyone agreed - Paddy Wallace.

Bare in mind Marc Andreu has played at international level for France is 5'5 at best.  Never got shown up in defense including when one on one with much larger wingers.  I wouldn't discount this guy because he is 5'5.

EDIT:

Andreu is 5'4

Suppose he can't be any worse than Humphreys Jr in defence

marty2086 wrote:Suppose he can't be any worse than Humphreys Jr in defence

The only thing that would put up less resistance than him is air. In fact, I'm sure I may have seen players speed up on hitting iHump.

I know it's not ideal to be playing youngsters but at the minute Ulster rugby has passed the skeleton crew stage. Needs must and if we're not going to get an outhalf signed for the remainder of the season then bring on the kids

Well that's the thing , if we don't have another 10 coming in we will have to play the kids, and if Christian is injured rest him and give them a go.
How would it look to players we are trying to sign if they see us flogging an injured player just because he's only got 3 games left for us? Come to Ulster on a short term and we will play you till your broken, thanks now bigger off. Not an attractive look is it.

Harry Mallinder at Saints may be worth a look at 10 for Ulster. I know he plays 15 but he is not a bad 10 either, could very well be worth a look.

eirebilly wrote:Harry Mallinder at Saints may be worth a look at 10 for Ulster. I know he plays 15 but he is not a bad 10 either, could very well be worth a look.

He isn't rated at all by the AP fans on Ferry Jumpy. There has also been the suggestion that were it not for a certain dose of nepotism he wouldn't be in the Saints squad and that he gets moved around the backline to find his least weakest position. I don't rate him personally either from what I've seen of him. If we are going to have a foreign 10 it needs to be a seriously good player, otherwise an Irish/IQ player like Steenson.

I think he has been moved around too much and honestly feel he has the potential to be a very good 10 myself Artful. I rate him highly as a club 10 but think its way too early to even consider him International standard but he could do well at Ulster.

Get away with your sabotage Billy. Mallinders are not wanted at Ulster

Dammit Pete, I was on a very carefully calculated WUM and you ruined it by seeing through me

eirebilly wrote:Dammit Pete, I was on a very carefully calculated WUM and you ruined it by seeing through me

A cunning ploy, but Ulster got there first by sending agent Arnold down there.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Dammit Pete, I was on a very carefully calculated WUM and you ruined it by seeing through me

A cunning ploy, but Ulster got there first by sending agent Arnold down there.

I had you though

Artful_Dodger wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Harry Mallinder at Saints may be worth a look at 10 for Ulster. I know he plays 15 but he is not a bad 10 either, could very well be worth a look.

He isn't rated at all by the AP fans on Ferry Jumpy.  There has also been the suggestion that were it not for a certain dose of nepotism he wouldn't be in the Saints squad and that he gets moved around the backline to find his least weakest position.  I don't rate him personally either from what I've seen of him.  If we are going to have a foreign 10 it needs to be a seriously good player, otherwise an Irish/IQ player like Steenson.

Mallinders a good player, he's played in the 3 games since his old has been sacked and Eddie Jones called him up for the summer tour to Argentina. Full back seems to be his best position at the minute and he suffered a lot from playing as a young 10 behind a malfunctioning pack so he'd know what he was getting into at Ulster

Like you said though Ulster need a quality 10 if he's NIQ. I did see mention of Jackson possibly going to Exeter if the verdict goes his way and Steenson is out of contract his summer. Could he be a stop gap for a year or two to bring in a big name NIQ or to give time to develop someone?

Heard Jackson is also on Wasps radar as Cipriana might be off to France. Plus the Jackson family have strong family and business links to the Midlands.

If fans are complaining about Ulster's defence now they will be apoplectic if Steenson is signed. Steenson will be 34 in a few months - that would be up there with the most short sighted signings Bryn has made - even if he was mad enough to come. Steenson wasn't good enough when he was 22, and signing him would show how devoid of ambition and ideas this Ulster administration is. Far better to show some faith in the Academy and persist with Brett Herron/Peter Nelson while introducing McPhillips/Lowry/Curtis.

The Great Aukster wrote:If fans are complaining about Ulster's defence now they will be apoplectic if Steenson is signed. Steenson will be 34 in a few months - that would be up there with the most short sighted signings Bryn has made - even if he was mad enough to come. Steenson wasn't good enough when he was 22, and signing him would show how devoid of ambition and ideas this Ulster administration is. Far better to show some faith in the Academy and persist with Brett Herron/Peter Nelson while introducing McPhillips/Lowry/Curtis.

I know from previous discussions that you aren't a fan of Steenson, it's also difficult to get away from the fact that he is 33. It should be noted however, that Baxter has continuously backed him as part of his Premiership winning side and he has continuously delivered. I don't particularly want Ulster to sign him, but of all the Irish/IQ tens available I think he would be close to top of the list. I would take him over a mediocre NIQ ten. If it's an NIQ ten it has to be a serious operator.

For next year there's KOTH's comment about an All Black 10 signed already.
Steenson wouldn't be a bad backup to the AB to finish his career.

Maine man wrote:Heard Jackson is also on Wasps radar as Cipriana might be off to France. Plus the Jackson family have strong family and business links to the Midlands.

That rumour has been going round all season, Wasps have been sniffing around a lot of 10s including the AB we have been linked with and some others that are in France

I thought Jackson had an offer from Wasps back when we were resigning him.

Mallinder was the pride of the U20s but he had an absolute mare against Quins. One of the worst performances I've seen in a good long while. His confidence is completely shot, he shipped the ball as soon as it was passed to him. Taking him short term wouldn't help us as we'd need to completely rebuild him and long term being NIQ there's always the risk of losing him back to the AP. Also I'm told he sees himself as a 15 (on last week's performance I don't understand why, he got sidestepped by the hooker for Quin's first try). It's more likely he'll leave Northampton when his dad finds some new digs, a la George Ford following his dad to Bath.

We'll have to see what happens in the courts before Jacko and Olding can start thinking about where they're going to be plying their trade next year. I'm sure they aren't about to ignore the fact that things could still go very wrong, fingers crossed that won't be the case.

On another note I was reading a comment on t'other forum that when Schmidt was at Leinster he preferred Cooney to McGrath but when he left for the Ireland gig Matt O'Connor played McGrath more mostly due to Cooney's injury record and then he left for Connacht where his injury record probably justified O'Connor's choice at the time.
This may or may not be true obviously coming from that source.

I would be more than happy to win my bet with Billy and see my early season judgements on Cooney to be backed up with him leapfrogging Marmion. I would love to see Cooney rewarded for his amazing form. I would however much prefer to hold out for a little while on such victories so that Ulster had a scrum half during the 6 nations window.

Pete330v2 wrote:We'll have to see what happens in the courts before Jacko and Olding can start thinking about where they're going to be plying their trade next year. I'm sure they aren't about to ignore the fact that things could still go very wrong, fingers crossed that won't be the case.

On another note I was reading a comment on t'other forum that when Schmidt was at Leinster he preferred Cooney to McGrath but when he left for the Ireland gig Matt O'Connor played McGrath more mostly due to Cooney's injury record and then he left for Connacht where his injury record probably justified O'Connor's choice at the time.
This may or may not be true obviously coming from that source.

I would be more than happy to win my bet with Billy and see my early season judgements on Cooney to be backed up with him leapfrogging Marmion. I would love to see Cooney rewarded for his amazing form. I would however much prefer to hold out for a little while on such victories so that Ulster had a scrum half during the 6 nations window.

It is an interesting point that Cooney has had a pretty injury free time since moving here. In stark contrast to the rest of his career. We've been pretty lucky in that respect.

Pete330v2 wrote:On another note I was reading a comment on t'other forum that when Schmidt was at Leinster he preferred Cooney to McGrath but when he left for the Ireland gig Matt O'Connor played McGrath more mostly due to Cooney's injury record and then he left for Connacht where his injury record probably justified O'Connor's choice at the time.
This may or may not be true obviously coming from that source.

I would be more than happy to win my bet with Billy and see my early season judgements on Cooney to be backed up with him leapfrogging Marmion. I would love to see Cooney rewarded for his amazing form. I would however much prefer to hold out for a little while on such victories so that Ulster had a scrum half during the 6 nations window.

McGrath was only breaking in though when Joe was at Leinster and was still in the academy until a year after he left

Pete330v2 wrote:
More importanly is KOTH from t'other forum correct with this selection?

Black
Best
Ah you
Browne
Henderson
Reidy
Rea
Deysel
Stewart
Leali'fano
Stockdale
Mccloskey
Cave
Trimble
Piutau

On the money

Herring, McCall, Herbst, AOC, Timoney, Cooney, McPhillips and Bowe make up the bench

15. Jordan Larmour (11)
14. Fergus McFadden (161)
13. Garry Ringrose (43)
12. Robbie Henshaw (19)
11. Barry Daly (17)
10. Ross Byrne (38)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park (41)
1. Jack McGrath (122) CAPTAIN
2. James Tracy (54)
3. Tadhg Furlong (75)
4. Devin Toner (208)
5. Scott Fardy (11)
6. Josh Murphy (2)
7. Jordi Murphy (96)
8. Jack Conan (64)

16. Seán Cronin (142)
17. Ed Byrne (16)
18. Andrew Porter (19)
19. Mick Kearney (28)
20. Max Deegan (10)
21. Nick McCarthy (16)
22. Johnny Sexton (142)
23. Noel Reid (92)