The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

LordDowlais wrote:RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

You're afraid to go it alone on your own, Lord? You fear having nothing to fall back on if the Irish left? The Pro14 is a joke. A childish whining, groaning circus. We'd be well rid of it from my perspective.

LordDowlais wrote:RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

Hmm. True enough. Unfortunately, Welsh rugby fans in general are apathetic and subservient. I just try to do my bit.

Call it missionary work.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

Hmm. True enough. Unfortunately, Welsh rugby fans in general are apathetic and subservient. I just try to do my bit.

Call it missionary work.

Well from the crap you post apparently the WRU are doing plenty of missionary work of their own

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

You're afraid to go it alone on your own, Lord?  You fear having nothing to fall back on if the Irish left?   The Pro14 is a joke.  A childish whining, groaning circus.  We'd be well rid of it from my perspective.

Nope I can see the wood for the trees that's all. I also want the Pro14 to work. Why can't we discuss what I have proposed, what I would like and pick the bones out of that instead of all the p1ss taking, insulting and all the derailing ?

SecretFly wrote: Wales going it alone.  Get the campaign going.  It'd help mine.

I don't want Wales to 'go it alone'.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

You're afraid to go it alone on your own, Lord?  You fear having nothing to fall back on if the Irish left?   The Pro14 is a joke.  A childish whining, groaning circus.  We'd be well rid of it from my perspective.

Nope I can see the wood for the trees that's all. I also want the Pro14 to work. Why can't we discuss what I have proposed, what I would like and pick the bones out of that instead of all the p1ss taking, insulting and all the derailing ?

I want to derail. I've had enough claptrap. Some of you seem to love eternal strife and 'drawma'. I want out of the Exciting Strife and Drama League.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Wales going it alone.  Get the campaign going.  It'd help mine.

I don't want Wales to 'go it alone'.

That's what you are. Your own entity. The Regions plus the WRU. Your biz. You get a system that you can take care of your biz in your way with your own refs, trained up in whatever way you all want. That's the only solution. But it seems people are afraid of the only solution that brings autonomy back to the Regions.
Have the courage of your convictions, people. We don't get along. Period. Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Wales going it alone.  Get the campaign going.  It'd help mine.

I don't want Wales to 'go it alone'.

That's what you are.  Your own entity.  The Regions plus the WRU.  Your biz.  You get a system that you can take care of your biz in your way with your own refs, trained up in whatever way you all want.  That's the only solution.  But it seems people are afraid of the only solution that brings autonomy back to the Regions.
Have the courage of your convictions, people.  We don't get along.  Period.  Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.

Again you're dead right. The Union owned model is one that doesn't work with the rest of the tier 1 Euro pro game.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Wales going it alone.  Get the campaign going.  It'd help mine.

I don't want Wales to 'go it alone'.

That's what you are.  Your own entity.  The Regions plus the WRU.  Your biz.  You get a system that you can take care of your biz in your way with your own refs, trained up in whatever way you all want.  That's the only solution.  But it seems people are afraid of the only solution that brings autonomy back to the Regions.
Have the courage of your convictions, people.  We don't get along.  Period.  Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.

Again you're dead right. The Union owned model is one that doesn't work with the rest of the tier 1 Euro pro game.

Works for us. Works for players, Works for fans. Works in the League. And works in Europe.

But yes, time for Welsh rugby to unhook their carriage from Irish rugby and/or vice versa. We don't gel. Period. Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.

SecretFly wrote:

But yes, time for Welsh rugby to unhook their carriage from Irish rugby and/or vice versa.  We don't gel.  Period.  Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.  

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Wales going it alone.  Get the campaign going.  It'd help mine.

I don't want Wales to 'go it alone'.

That's what you are.  Your own entity.  The Regions plus the WRU.  Your biz.  You get a system that you can take care of your biz in your way with your own refs, trained up in whatever way you all want.  That's the only solution.  But it seems people are afraid of the only solution that brings autonomy back to the Regions.
Have the courage of your convictions, people.  We don't get along.  Period.  Cooperative Leagues aren't for us.

Again you're dead right. The Union owned model is one that doesn't work with the rest of the tier 1 Euro pro game.

Except it does

Who cares about the Irish system, whoopie for them if it works for them.

Now can we please address the issues in hand ? Lets stop derailing the topic, and please RugbyFan, stop falling for the deviation tactics. You see our Irish members do not want to talk about the topic in hand, they want us to try and make us look like idiots by making out how we supposedly hate everything Irish.

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

Lets see if they want to debate. Because anyone who is reading this, will see that they don't.

LordDowlais wrote:Who cares about the Irish system, whoopie for them if it works for them.

Now can we please address the issues in hand ? Lets stop derailing the topic, and please RugbyFan, stop falling for the deviation tactics. You see our Irish members do not want to talk about the topic in hand, they want us to try and make us look like idiots by making out how we supposedly hate everything Irish.

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

Lets see if they want to debate. Because anyone who is reading this, will see that they don't.

LD has a post ever been started about a Welsh ref reffing a Welsh team? Or a Scottish ref reffing a Scottish team?

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

LordDowlais wrote:Who cares about the Irish system, whoopie for them if it works for them.

Now can we please address the issues in hand ? Lets stop derailing the topic, and please RugbyFan, stop falling for the deviation tactics. You see our Irish members do not want to talk about the topic in hand, they want us to try and make us look like idiots by making out how we supposedly hate everything Irish.

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

Lets see if they want to debate. Because anyone who is reading this, will see that they don't.

Correct. The debate is over. A divorce is the only solution - the rest is just endless guff.

All I hear is "whaa whaa whaa we ain't good enough and it's everyone else at fault, whaa whaa why won't the PRL invite us in"

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

An All Wales platform is the only solution.

carpet baboon wrote: why won't the PRL invite us in"

Please can you tell us how many times, in this thread, someone has wished PRL would invite their team in to a PRL run league. And then reply to my post with the answer.

Thank you.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

An All Wales platform is the only solution.

I'd rather a pro14 than an "all wales platform"

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

Majority run? So how many union members on the board and how many non union members then?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

An All Wales platform is the only solution.

I'd rather a pro14 than an "all wales platform"

I wouldn't.  Welsh rugby has proven over an over again that it doesn't have the temperament to 'share' contests.  Too many opportunities for implied bias and implied oppression, and implied unfairness, and implied wrong thinking in their partners.
Welsh rugby needs to be left in peace with itself, to run its own ship in its own way.  Maybe peace will then descend on the eternal groans and moans that have followed every version of a 'Celtic' league since its inception.  The boy cries wolf much too often.  The boy should be left to his wolf.

The Pro14 should end and Ireland should find their own solution in a truly domestic League.

marty2086 wrote:

Majority run? So how many union members on the board and how many non union members then?

The pro 14 is owned by the Unions Marty. PRW is one lone voice in the Directorship.

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

I will not fall for it, and neither should you RF. Engage them about the refs and other things like the logistics of our league, other than what they are doing in Ireland.

They just avoid talking about it / dismiss it. And concentrate on a spelling mistake instead.

Nothing will be done in this league to address the deficiencies because the powers that be are too insistent on ensuring the league is 'majority - run' by the Unions.

An All Wales platform is the only solution.

I'd rather a pro14 than an "all wales platform"

I wouldn't.  Welsh rugby has proven over an over again that it doesn't have the temperament to 'share' contests.  Too many opportunities for implied bias and implied oppression, and implied unfairness, and implied wrong thinking in their partners.
Welsh rugby needs to be left in peace with itself, to run its own ship in its own way.  Maybe peace will then descend on the eternal groans and moans that have followed every version of a 'Celtic' league since its inception.  The boy cries wolf much too often.  The boy should be left to his wolf.

The Pro14 should end and Ireland should find their own solution in a truly domestic League.

I would.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Majority run? So how many union members on the board and how many non union members then?

The pro 14 is owned by the Unions Marty. PRW is one lone voice in the Directorship.

Not what I asked so do you want to answer the question?

While you are at it, you want to tell us what way the shares are divided?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Majority run? So how many union members on the board and how many non union members then?

The pro 14 is owned by the Unions Marty. PRW is one lone voice in the Directorship.

Not what I asked so do you want to answer the question?

While you are at it, you want to tell us what way the shares are divided?

7 to 1 in terms of Union to private

equal 25%

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Majority run? So how many union members on the board and how many non union members then?

The pro 14 is owned by the Unions Marty. PRW is one lone voice in the Directorship.

Not what I asked so do you want to answer the question?

While you are at it, you want to tell us what way the shares are divided?

7 to 1 in terms of Union to private

equal 25%

So there are only 8 members of the Celtic Rugby board?

marty2086 wrote:

So there are only 8 members of the Celtic Rugby board?

8 Directors allocated by Unions ( 2 each). Then you have Finance Director and chairman etc but they're not appointed by each signatory.

There is only 1 representative in the Pro14 which speaks on behalf of the privately owned clubs.

You know all this.

carpet baboon wrote: why won't the PRL invite us in"

Please can you tell us how many times, in this thread,  someone has wished PRL would invite their team in to a PRL run league. And then reply to my post with the answer.

Thank you.

I love the fact the Chairman of the pro14 is 74 years old too. He's just a nodding dog who does what they tell him. Awful appointment.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So there are only 8 members of the Celtic Rugby board?

8 Directors allocated by Unions ( 2 each). Then you have Finance Director and chairman etc but they're not appointed by each signatory.

There is only 1 representative in the Pro14 which speaks on behalf of the privately owned clubs.

You know all this.

Nope theres more than 1 not to mention the finance director, tournament director, chairman, chief executive, secretary and whoever else I missed but apparently they don't count as that doesn't fit your poor little clubs being bullied by the unions narrative

RugbyFan100 wrote:I love the fact the Chairman of the pro14 is 74 years old too. He's just a nodding dog who does what they tell him. Awful appointment.

See, just making it up as you go along

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So there are only 8 members of the Celtic Rugby board?

8 Directors allocated by Unions ( 2 each). Then you have Finance Director and chairman etc but they're not appointed by each signatory.

There is only 1 representative in the Pro14 which speaks on behalf of the privately owned clubs.

You know all this.

Nope theres more than 1 not to mention the finance director, tournament director, chairman, chief executive, secretary and whoever else I missed but apparently they don't count as that doesn't fit your poor little clubs being bullied by the unions narrative

The Pro14 Finance Director represents privately owned rugby clubs?



What planet are you on?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

So there are only 8 members of the Celtic Rugby board?

8 Directors allocated by Unions ( 2 each). Then you have Finance Director and chairman etc but they're not appointed by each signatory.

There is only 1 representative in the Pro14 which speaks on behalf of the privately owned clubs.

You know all this.

Nope theres more than 1 not to mention the finance director, tournament director, chairman, chief executive, secretary and whoever else I missed but apparently they don't count as that doesn't fit your poor little clubs being bullied by the unions narrative

The Pro14 Finance Director represents privately owned rugby clubs?



What planet are you on?

They represent the competitions best interests, I was pointing out a counter to your poor little bullied RRW story

marty2086 wrote:

They represent the competitions best interests, I was pointing out a counter to your poor little bullied RRW story

You haven't countered it. You've merely added weight to it. I was being kind by only mentioning the 8 appointed signatory Directors, adding in the others it's something like 13 to 1 instead of 7 to 1.

I repeat, there is only one entity on that board of Directors that has the interest of privately owned clubs at heart. Therefore any decisions made are likely to favour the majority - which are Union owned clubs.

Now if you can't take these FACTS on board and use them to understand why fans of privately owned clubs would rather be in league that benefits privately owned clubs instead of another model, then that just confirms that you are unable to:

-either read properly
-understand anything that doesn't correspond with your narrative

Have a lovey weekend.

PhilBB2.0 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

They represent the competitions best interests, I was pointing out a counter to your poor little bullied RRW story

You haven't countered  it. You've merely added weight to it. I was being kind by only mentioning the 8 appointed signatory Directors, adding in the others it's something like 13 to 1 instead of 7 to 1.

I repeat, there is only one entity on that board of Directors that has the interest of privately owned clubs at heart. Therefore any decisions made are likely to favour the majority - which are Union owned clubs.

Now if you can't take these FACTS on board and use them to understand why fans of privately owned clubs would rather be in league that benefits privately owned clubs instead of another model, then that just confirms that you are unable to:

-either read properly
-understand anything that doesn't correspond with your narrative

Have a lovey weekend.

No I understand that you saying things don't make them true nor does typing FACTS

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB2.0 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

They represent the competitions best interests, I was pointing out a counter to your poor little bullied RRW story

You haven't countered  it. You've merely added weight to it. I was being kind by only mentioning the 8 appointed signatory Directors, adding in the others it's something like 13 to 1 instead of 7 to 1.

I repeat, there is only one entity on that board of Directors that has the interest of privately owned clubs at heart. Therefore any decisions made are likely to favour the majority - which are Union owned clubs.

Now if you can't take these FACTS on board and use them to understand why fans of privately owned clubs would rather be in league that benefits privately owned clubs instead of another model, then that just confirms that you are unable to:

-either read properly
-understand anything that doesn't correspond with your narrative

Have a lovey weekend.

No I understand that you saying things don't make them true nor does typing FACTS

He’s absolutely right. Furthermore, the shareholders In Celtic Rugby which owns the PRO14 are the WRU, IRFU and SRU. One-third each.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  

Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by unions

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  

Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by unions

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

A very fair, and not often stated, point.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  

Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by unions

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

The other Welsh teams aren't union run but are almost entirely dependent on their union.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  

Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by unions

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

The other Welsh teams aren't union run but are almost entirely dependent on their union.

I'm not sure I agree here, LF4L. So you mean because of the monies 'given' each season by the WRU? That is mostly made up of competition monies, tv monies (if different?) and money for access to players (same as clubs in England get). So without the union the regions would get the tv and competition monies anyway, as it's theirs. WRU certainly top up a little bit I wouldn't say 'almost entirely dependant'. 

By the way, as a disclaimer: I'm not in the same camp as some others on here: I don't think there's an Irish conspiracy, I don't think we need all clubs to be either union or private owned to get 'parity', I don't think there's a problem with the 'playing field' - it's level as far as I can tell.

Just a note about the Dragons ownership. I think the WRU influence is a little overstated. It's made out to sound like the Dragons are a mini offshoot of the WRU, with a WRU office at Rodney Parade, and WRU branding everywhere! They are the majority shareholders but don't get too involved by the sounds of it. Here's an interview with the new chairman:

"Let me make it crystal clear, if a company is owned with shareholders, in our case majority owned by the WRU, we have an obligation to those shareholders," said Buttress.
"That said, the club is run by the board of directors - two of which are from the WRU (Steve Phillips and Ian Jeffery) and two of which are independent (Buttress and David Reynolds) - then all our squad decisions are made by Bernard Jackman.
"That's no different to the last 20 years of my business life where as a public company I had many, many shareholders that owned Just Eat. They didn't run Just Eat, myself and the management team did.
"I see a lot of misinformed comment around ownership, which does not mean operational management.
"It's very different and I would add that that's a very positive thing for Welsh rugby because the last thing the WRU should be doing is running any region. It's good for them to have a stake, and I can see the benefit here of the WRU.
"Let's be blunt, without them this region would not exist. Congratulations to them for allowing the region to have a second chance, but in terms of how the region is managed and operated, it's the board's job to operate the company on a day to day basis.
"In that sense it's the same as any other organisation regionally, it's just that our [major] shareholder happens to be the WRU.
"People talk about transparency, I think if anything the Dragons is currently the most transparent region in Wales given the level of scrutiny.
"We are trying to engage with stakeholders, whether it social media or other ways. We will continue to do that because there is nothing to hide here, we are saying exactly what we are doing."

The Oracle wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  

Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by unions

Or.... You know... The opposite. Dragons already back in the fold. Just 3 more and we are all back in the union.

Why does everyone else have to change when there are at least 10 union controlled teams in the league?

The other Welsh teams aren't union run but are almost entirely dependent on their union.

I'm not sure I agree here, LF4L. So you mean because of the monies 'given' each season by the WRU? That is mostly made up of competition monies, tv monies (if different?) and money for access to players (same as clubs in England get). So without the union the regions would get the tv and competition monies anyway, as it's theirs. WRU certainly top up a little bit I wouldn't say 'almost entirely dependant'. 

By the way, as a disclaimer: I'm not in the same camp as some others on here: I don't think there's an Irish conspiracy, I don't think we need all clubs to be either union or private owned to get 'parity', I don't think there's a problem with the 'playing field' - it's level as far as I can tell.

Its more than a little top up. They could survive without the WRU yes but all the regions would probably be as competitive as the Dragons with the best players playing abroad. Let's not pretend the regions are as independent as the English and French clubs

A reasonable win for Leinster in the Groan and Gripe League. Jesus, Lancaster was showing his hair-dryer mood there in the dressing room! Good to see.

SecretFly wrote:A reasonable win for Leinster in the Groan and Gripe League.  Jesus, Lancaster was showing his hair-dryer mood there in the dressing room!  Good to see.

Passionate coaches - another example of the unfairness in the league! How are we meant to compete???

Don't tempt fate though, .... that actually might become yet another contentious topic!!

Following up an earlier comment about different union-imposed quotas on foreign NXXQ players, it’s interesting to see that the numbers of SANZAAR-born players in the PRO14 are falling as the local academies bring more native players through.

I had been aware of the quotas imposed by EPCR of no more than 2 players from NZ or Aus for European games. And the discovery of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian roots with some former All Blacks in French teams to get around this.

Is there a similar limit imposed by PRO14 on their teams for championship match-day squads? For example, with Luke McGrath injured, will Leinster have to choose between Fardy, Lowe and Gibson Park for upcoming matches against Kings, Scarlets, etc?

Pot Hale wrote:Following up an earlier comment about different union-imposed quotas on foreign NXXQ players, it’s interesting to see that the numbers of SANZAAR-born players in the PRO14 are falling as the local academies bring more native players through.

I had been aware of the quotas imposed by EPCR of no more than 2 players from NZ or Aus for European games. And the discovery of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian roots with some former All Blacks in French teams to get around this.

Is there a similar limit imposed by PRO14 on their teams for championship match-day squads? For example, with Luke McGrath injured, will Leinster have to choose between Fardy, Lowe and Gibson Park for upcoming matches against Kings, Scarlets, etc?

Yes the rules are the same. This is a bit of a nuisance for Leinster but when Leo Cullen was questioned on why we would sign 3 KOPAK players he said the chance to sign a player of Lowe's calibre was just too good to turn down.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Following up an earlier comment about different union-imposed quotas on foreign NXXQ players, it’s interesting to see that the numbers of SANZAAR-born players in the PRO14 are falling as the local academies bring more native players through.

I had been aware of the quotas imposed by EPCR of no more than 2 players from NZ or Aus for European games. And the discovery of Tongan, Samoan or Fijian roots with some former All Blacks in French teams to get around this.

Is there a similar limit imposed by PRO14 on their teams for championship match-day squads? For example, with Luke McGrath injured, will Leinster have to choose between Fardy, Lowe and Gibson Park for upcoming matches against Kings, Scarlets, etc?

Yes the rules are the same. This is a bit of a nuisance for Leinster but when Leo Cullen was questioned on why we would sign 3 KOPAK players he said the chance to sign a player of Lowe's calibre was just too good to turn down.

Oh. I thought he said that in relation to Lowe joining this season when he didn’t seem essential. With Nacewa going this season, he would slot in as a NIQ replacement next season. Fardy has another year to run with Ryan and Molony developing alongside him. Gibson Park’s final contract year is 2018/19. He arrived in Ireland in June 2016 so would qualify just as his contract ends. Do Leinster keep him? Would he be too late for a RWC call up with only a couple of warm up matches possible before the real thing in Japan? Would he be ahead of McGrath, Marmion, Cooney?

Why are people pandering here to the Irish members who will not debate properly ?

Nobody is saying there is an Irish conspiracy, except the Irish members making it out that we are trying to say it.

I have been following this thread over the weekend, just to see if anybody would counter my opinion on the referee situation, guess what ? Not one ounce of an answer.

Now come on. Please ?

There is no conspiracy, there is no paranoia, we just want to talk about certain aspects of our league where we think we can improve, and I definitely think the refereeing situation is an area that we could make massive strides in.

Please, no sarcasm, no insults, just good debate, is that too much to ask ?

Potentially great Pro14 encounter on next weekend. I see they bought in a Neutral ref too. A fecking New Zealander!!!! That's expensive. He'll probably be biased in favour of the team with the Kiwi coach though. Kiwis are a bloody invasive species - but always fair.