The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?

Yep, here's that sarcasm, again.

Yet it's the Welsh on here who cause all the problems.

I think think that is excellent news if true, I presume this is for the Munster V Glasgow game ? It's good to see that the Pro14 are doing something about the atrocious standard of decent refs in our league.

Well, they brought in a South African ref for the Dragons v Benetton game yesterday and he was pretty atrocious (for both sides). Sure one of the more 'local' refs would have been better.

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, here's that sarcasm, again.

Yet it's the Welsh on here who cause all the problems.

I think think that is excellent news if true, I presume this is for the Munster V Glasgow game ? It's good to see that the Pro14 are doing something about the atrocious standard of decent refs in our league.

You mean it wasn't a Welsh poster who said the league is controlled by the Irish and built to benefit the Irish?

If you want to scold other people about debating properly it may be worth sorting out your own debating techniques, such as not making stuff up

You could talk about the point in hand marty instead of constantly rehashing all this nonsense.

But that's not you is it ?

The Oracle wrote:Well, they brought in a South African ref for the Dragons v Benetton game yesterday and he was pretty atrocious (for both sides).  Sure one of the more 'local' refs would have been better.

To be fair, Benetton can feel more aggrieved by him than Dragons.

The less said about that performance the by Dragons the better. I though this was a brand new dawn for them.

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, here's that sarcasm, again.

Yet it's the Welsh on here who cause all the problems.

I think think that is excellent news if true, I presume this is for the Munster V Glasgow game ? It's good to see that the Pro14 are doing something about the atrocious standard of decent refs in our league.

Lord. I'm talking about the Ireland v Wales game. And it's called a little 'light relief' in what has been a pretty heavy duty thread ... not sarcasm.

LordDowlais wrote:You could talk about the point in hand marty instead of constantly rehashing all this nonsense.

But that's not you is it ?

You quite literally posted this today

Nobody is saying there is an Irish conspiracy, except the Irish members making it out that we are trying to say it.

A Welsh poster said there was, so if you keep posting cr@p like it then it becomes relevant to rehash stuff

Countering a point is the essence of debating, so it's not people failing to debate properly that is the problem for you, it's that the facts aren't in your favour

Maybe if you grew up and stopped making stuff up and stopped ignoring facts that aren't in your favour debates might move further

FFS.

marty2086 wrote:Countering a point is the essence of debating, so it's not people failing to debate properly that is the problem for you, it's that the facts aren't in your favour

What is my "favour" ?

marty2086 wrote:Maybe if you grew up and stopped making stuff up and stopped ignoring facts that aren't in your favour debates might move further

And here we are with the insults, shouldn't have expected no more from you.

Yet again, you prove my point in epic fashion. You just do not want to debate about the point in hand.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Countering a point is the essence of debating, so it's not people failing to debate properly that is the problem for you, it's that the facts aren't in your favour

What is my "favour" ?

marty2086 wrote:Maybe if you grew up and stopped making stuff up and stopped ignoring facts that aren't in your favour debates might move further

And here we are with the insults, shouldn't have expected no more from you.

Yet again, you prove my point in epic fashion. You just do not want to debate about the point in hand.

See, when it get's pointed out how wrong you are you resort to claiming it's typical of people to do something

Here's a few fun facts for you, you claim it's Irish posters talking of an Irish conspiracy, that's something you've made up. It was a Welsh poster who made the claim.

What is the point in hand considering you are just attacking posters?

If you wanted a proper debate the point in hand seems to be the claims you keep making about Irish posters, it's been repeatedly pointed out that you are making false claims yet you keep making them and never once debated it instead attacking me instead

So again, maybe take a hard look at your debating technique

Nope, I want to talk about the lack of quality refs in the league, who should employ them and the logistics of the league.

I do not want to talk about nationality, but thanks for the offer.

On a side note, how does this reflect on our league, when a union member is looking to find a way into the English set-up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-eye-a-stake-in-newcastle-falcons-hsmr3jrzl

Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

So it's OK for Scotland to do this, but as soon as a Welsh member on here wishes for it he is hung drawn and quartered. OK, just as long as we know where we stand.

LordDowlais wrote:On a side note, how does this reflect on our league, when a union member is looking to find a way into the English set-up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-eye-a-stake-in-newcastle-falcons-hsmr3jrzl

Shows the scots are following in the footsteps of the welsh by looking to jump into bed with the PRL. Wasn't too long ago that the welsh turned their back on pro12 with the briefest of overtures from the PRL.

They're free to do what they please.

It would be curious how a Union would feel about another union having a club in their country?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Shows the scots are following in the footsteps of the welsh by looking to jump into bed with the PRL. Wasn't too long ago that the welsh turned their back on pro12 with the briefest of overtures from the PRL.

Ah, so it's the fault of the Welsh, OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

LordDowlais wrote:Nope, I want to talk about the lack of quality refs in the league, who should employ them and the logistics of the league.

I do not want to talk about nationality, but thanks for the offer.

And yet you keep dragging it up and when you don't you misrepresent the issues within the league

You claim the problem is with who employs them yet the MD of the league talks of accents, that would indicate nationality is an issue

So it seems again your debating techniques need work as you are trying to reduce the parameters of the debate to suit you, rather than address the concerns that many have within the league including those who actually run the league

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

So it's OK for Scotland to do this, but as soon as a Welsh member on here wishes for it he is hung drawn and quartered. OK, just as long as we know where we stand.

It's not the same thing, and simply a way forward to expanding their player base. Makes sense to me.

MUNCH wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

So it's OK for Scotland to do this, but as soon as a Welsh member on here wishes for it he is hung drawn and quartered. OK, just as long as we know where we stand.

It's not the same thing, and simply a way forward to expanding their player base. Makes sense to me.

Have you not read the link ? Seriously ? The very first sentence on that report, I could do this for all of it though.

The Scottish Rugby Union is so keen to gain a foothold in the top flight of English club rugby that it is pursuing the possibility of buying a share of up to 20 per cent of Newcastle Falcons. wrote:

Why aren't they making noises about getting another team in the Pro14 ? Surely this money could be spent on expanding our league, not to get a foothold into somebody else's setup.

LordDowlais wrote:On a side note, how does this reflect on our league, when a union member is looking to find a way into the English set-up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-eye-a-stake-in-newcastle-falcons-hsmr3jrzl

It has nothing to do with the league. It's SRU business. You and some others keep making the mistake of thinking Pro14 owns the interests of the Unions/Clubs involved - or should. No - Pro14 is merely one vehicle the contributing Unions/Clubs use to try to gain meaningful competition in terms of funding and player experience.
It's the SRU's business where they want to invest their own money. But if I was to make a call on what their goals are in terms of buying into an English Premiership side, then I'd take a slice of 7's comment and say its a little weird that a Nation with some 5 million citizens can't think of how to add one or two more home teams to their current two. But that's their business. They'll make moves to help their cause.

LordDowlais wrote:

MUNCH wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

So it's OK for Scotland to do this, but as soon as a Welsh member on here wishes for it he is hung drawn and quartered. OK, just as long as we know where we stand.

It's not the same thing, and simply a way forward to expanding their player base. Makes sense to me.

Have you not read the link ? Seriously ? The very first sentence on that report, I could do this for all of it though.



Why aren't they making noises about getting another team in the Pro14 ? Surely this money could be spent on expanding our league, not to get a foothold into somebody else's setup.

Of course I've read the link, and it's not the same thing. It isn't as if the SRU are applying for their two club sides to join the AP. All they are hoping to do is spread the net a little. Makes sense as their base is rather limited.

If the IRFU wanted to take over London Irish in order to expand their player base then why not? Although I wouldn't be overjoyed as more work can be done on this side with the player base that we have.

Oh, and I would have no issue with the WRU doing the same.

MUNCH wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense if the 3rd Scottish team isn't a realistic option and would help newcastle s debt a touch. They already have a similar deal for younger players in France.

So it's OK for Scotland to do this, but as soon as a Welsh member on here wishes for it he is hung drawn and quartered. OK, just as long as we know where we stand.

It's not the same thing, and simply a way forward to expanding their player base. Makes sense to me.

Welcome back Munch! However brief it might be.

Thanks, Fly. Good to be back, but won't be posting as much for a while. Still fun to read though

I'd personally like the IRFU to buy up Crusaders.... and maybe Clermont if there is some change left.

MUNCH wrote:Makes sense as their base is rather limited.

Twice the population of Wales, yet here we are.

SecretFly wrote:its a little weird that a Nation with some 5 million citizens can't think of how to add one or two more home teams to their current two.

Exactly, but it's now it's OK ?

MUNCH wrote:Oh, and I would have no issue with the WRU doing the same.

So why is it, that past members have mentioned it and been castigated ?

I remember there was talk of London Welsh and the what not, and the WRU were accused of everything.

Why is this different ?

I would rather extra Scottish sides than teams from South Africa, but for some reason now this is a very good idea.

Why don't the SRFU use this money to get more Scottish refs up to the level needed for the Pro14 ?

SecretFly wrote:I'd personally like the IRFU to buy up Crusaders.... and maybe Clermont if there is some change left.

Again, instead of debating like an adult, you use sarcasm.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'd personally like the IRFU to buy up Crusaders.... and maybe Clermont if there is some change left.

Again, instead of debating like an adult, you use sarcasm.

You must learn to understand that word 'sarcasm' more, for it is said word that is leading you up many needlessly dark alleys and getting you all in a needless tizzy about many things that could be referred to as 'nothing'.

ps. I already responded to your query with a serious post but you chose to ignore it and wait for the 'sarcasm' instead. So I'll repeat - like others have said - what the SRU does with its own money is not my concern....or yours...or the concern of the Pro14. The Pro14 is a product that Unions and Clubs use. That's all it is - a tool to be used until such time as a new tool is agreed to or not sometime in the future.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'd personally like the IRFU to buy up Crusaders.... and maybe Clermont if there is some change left.

Again, instead of debating like an adult, you use sarcasm.

So people can only do what you tell them on here? So nationality is irrelevant because you say so and people can't use sarcasm?

Which Welsh member wants the wru to invest in Newcastle? Missed that point.

Why are you all attacking me over this ?

There are no decent Scottish refs, yet the SRFU would rather put money into an English concern rather than use that money to get more quality Scottish refs, does this not concern anybody ?

Why can't they use this money to start a new side up ? Like the WRU are doing with RGC1404 with the potential to get that team into the Pro14 ?

DO the SRU think the Pro14 is a lost cause ?

Poor little Lord Bluster, always getting picked on by adults who have at least treble the brain cells

LordDowlais wrote:

DO the SRU think the Pro14 is a lost cause ?

Maybe they do. Maybe Rugby Fan's campaign worked on them. Maybe they're trying to get their organisational schidt together in advance of an end to Pro14 sometime in the future. Pre-planning the End.

Should be Pro14's signature tune: The End by The Doors.

LordDowlais wrote:Why are you all attacking me over this ?

There are no decent Scottish refs, yet the SRFU would rather put money into an English concern rather than use that money to get more quality Scottish refs, does this not concern anybody ?

Why can't they use this money to start a new side up ? Like the WRU are doing with RGC1404 with the potential to get that team into the Pro14 ?

DO the SRU think the Pro14 is a lost cause ?

Well that’s an easy one – there’s a big difference in investing £1m a year in an already established, successful business with its own infrastructure and staff, compared to having to invest £5 + million  a year in a brand new entity, having to find a new stadium and recruitment a whole squad and staff.

I’m fairly confident the SRU’s decision is mainly focussed on increased playing opportunities for players who would otherwise be forgotten about with 2 pro teams, as opposed to ‘getting into bed’ with PRL or other ulterior motives. I’m also confident PRL won’t be overly happy with this news either.

Yeah as I said it's not viable money wise to have another Scottish team hence being able to give some.players to Newcastle while putting money is helps both. I honestly haven't seen a Welsh poster propose this for the wru. Where was it?

And yeah rdw a million miles from the rfu accepting it as well.

Also, Newcastle has a long history of famous Scottish players and there is a real affinity between Scots and Geordies, particularly in the borders.

I can't see it being too difficult a sell for the fans to have Scottish players playing for Newcastle, as we've had it for years anyway!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well that’s an easy one – there’s a big difference in investing £1m a year in an already established, successful business with its own infrastructure and staff, compared to having to invest £5 + million a year in a brand new entity, having to find a new stadium and recruitment a whole squad and staff.

Surely there are Scottish sides already established in Scotland, perhaps in Aberdeen where this could be invested and nurtured into a fully pro side though ? The WRU are doing this here with RGC1404 in North Wales.

You do not need to start putting in £5 million straight away, it could be a slow burner, like RGC. Also, all that money that the SRU are putting into Newcastle or Worcester could be well spent on developing Scottish officials, surely ?

LordDowlais wrote:Why are you all attacking me over this ?

You're being ridiculed, there's a difference

LordDowlais wrote:There are no decent Scottish refs, yet the SRFU would rather put money into an English concern rather than use that money to get more quality Scottish refs, does this not concern anybody ?

Why can't they do both? Who said they haven't invested in improving refs? Why does money make a ref better?

LordDowlais wrote:Why can't they use this money to start a new side up ? Like the WRU are doing with RGC1404 with the potential to get that team into the Pro14 ?

Why should they? They have limited resources in terms of money and players, they have shown they can't sustain a third team and investing in another team outside Scotland with an established and growing fan base, with guaranteed revenues for the a number of years and who need quality players to continue their growth means they can move young players in need of games or established players wanting higher wages to Newcastle and keep some control over them and potentially get numerous returns on their investment. Not overly complicated

LordDowlais wrote:DO the SRU think the Pro14 is a lost cause ?

Why would it? Business invest to increase revenues all the time or to diversify or to improve their image and numerous other reasons. The RFU invested in American rugby, does that mean they gave up on the England team or AP?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, Newcastle has a long history of famous Scottish players and there is a real affinity between Scots and Geordies, particularly in the borders.

I can't see it being too difficult a sell for the fans to have Scottish players playing for Newcastle, as we've had it for years anyway!

Yes I agree, there have been lots of good Scottish players playing for Newcastle, we have had the same with our borders, with a lot of good Welsh players playing for Gloucester, Bath, Bristol, Worcester.

But all that has been done, all whilst investing nothing into the border clubs, I just think the SRU has it's priorities in the wrong place with this one.

So which postwr was proposing it from the wru?

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well that’s an easy one – there’s a big difference in investing £1m a year in an already established, successful business with its own infrastructure and staff, compared to having to invest £5 + million  a year in a brand new entity, having to find a new stadium and recruitment a whole squad and staff.

Surely there are Scottish sides already established in Scotland, perhaps in Aberdeen where this could be invested and nurtured into a fully pro side though ? The WRU are doing this here with RGC1404 in North Wales.

You do not need to start putting in £5 million straight away, it could be a slow burner, like RGC. Also, all that money that the SRU are putting into Newcastle or Worcester could be well spent on developing Scottish officials, surely ?

Trust me when I say this has been debated to death over the years, and no there is no obvious option for a 3rd pro club – if there was it would have happened as it is so desperately needed.

The scale of investment is huge for a brand new pro team, plus you’d not be competitive for a few years as you would struggle to attract top players to a brand new entity who are likely to be horsed week in week out. If you’re not competitive you won’t attract the crowds, and given that there’s never been successful pro rugby anywhere other than Edinburgh and Glasgow you’d be making a huge risk in moving somewhere else without knowing if it would be successful. Aberdeen isn’t that a big place and is dominated by the football team. The Borders doesn’t have the population density and had previously tried and failed.

Also, where would they play? I can’t imagine the other Pro 14 teams would want another team added to the league, and an odd number of teams would mean having to scrap the conference system, which is required to reduce the number of games.

On the refs, the SRU are developing officials - they now have Mike Adamson reffing Pro 14 games and a female fulltime ref is now reffing womens games and will soon make the move into mens no doubt. We're also talking completely different levels of scale in terms of investment (you're not going to plow £1million a year to bring through an extra ref or two), and I'm assuming there's no contractual need for the SRU to provide a minimum number of refs to the league.

I cannot remember who it was, it was a while back, and it was something about the WRU sending players to London Welsh for development and it turned into the jumping into bed with the PRL debacle, I think it might have been Phil or chunkynowrich.

But the usual crap followed. Please,please, please do not hound me on this, you can trawl through the umpteen pages on here to find it if you want, but please, no hounding.

Yes, please don't "hound" him by asking him to back up his claims, its quite unreasonable and you're all just picking on him

RDW_Scotland wrote:The scale of investment is huge for a brand new pro team, plus you’d not be competitive for a few years as you would struggle to attract top players to a brand new entity who are likely to be horsed week in week out. If you’re not competitive you won’t attract the crowds, and given that there’s never been successful pro rugby anywhere other than Edinburgh and Glasgow you’d be making a huge risk in moving somewhere else without knowing if it would be successful. Aberdeen isn’t that a big place and is dominated by the football team. The Borders doesn’t have the population density and had previously tried and failed.

RGC1404 are not fully professional either, they are a WRU run side that represents North Wales in the Welsh premiership, the idea is to drum up support up North and hopefully in time get them some regional status.

North Wales is massively football dominated with both Everton and Liverpool not far away, add to that Wrexham as well, so not that different to Aberdeen I suppose, like I said it's not an instant fix, and not a massive spend from the outset, just gradual investment into it and help it grow on it's own.

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the refs, the SRU are developing officials - they now have Mike Adamson reffing Pro 14 games and a female fulltime ref is now reffing womens games and will soon make the move into mens no doubt. We're also talking completely different levels of scale in terms of investment (you're not going to plow £1million a year to bring through an extra ref or two), and I'm assuming there's no contractual need for the SRU to provide a minimum number of refs to the league.

I am not saying Scotland do not do what you are saying, but there is definitely a lack of decent Scottish officials in the Pro14, and I think that it's something that should be addressed, but until I start seeing more Scottish refs then I'm sorry, I will have to hold judgement.

So to confirm I don't believe I've ever hung drawn or quartered anyone for suggesting the wru invest in london welsh. I have said that having fully Welsh teams involved in the league is a pipe dream. I also think this venture is going to get knocked back pretty sharpish.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So to confirm I don't believe I've ever hung drawn or quartered anyone for suggesting the wru invest in london welsh. I have said that having fully Welsh teams involved in the league is a pipe dream. I also think this venture is going to get knocked back pretty sharpish.

I never said you did. What a statement to make.

It is worth saying that the SRU are already setting up a 'Super 6' semi-pro league.

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/17/08/05/scottish-rugby-unveils-new-league-structure-agm

This is aimed to reduce the gap between the amateur and professional game, although semi-pro is still a huge step down from Pro.

As for refs, ideally we would have more refs at top level but it will probably be long down on the SRU's priority list, especially if they have no obligation to the league to bring more through. We currently have 1 Pro 14 ref but also provide ARs for Edinburgh and Glasgow's home games. Italy have the same number of teams as us and supply the same number of refs to the league, so it's not like we're alone with this.

I read it as implied as you asked thoughts on Newcastle and replied to me stating it's ok for the sru but a Welsh member is hung drawn and quartered. If this was a point to someone else fair enough but perhaps more clearly direct it towards them?

Still think on the refs front it would help us all if wr actively encouraged and financed swaps between leagues more.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Italy have the same number of teams as us and supply the same number of refs to the league, so it's not like we're alone with this.

Yes I am fully aware of this, and it is a blight on our league, but in Italy's defence, they are not looking into investing in another league.