6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[carpet baboon]

The "better" 9s in question, by which I assume you mean Robson, is too similar to Care IMO. It makes sense to go with a slightly different option.

Not just Robson. Spencer I rate higher. Maunder from Exeter. That lad from glaws who's name I can't remember. But to be honest I'm not that bothered who England call up at 9. Just think they can aim higher than Wiggy

[lostinwales]

The "better" 9s in question, by which I assume you mean Robson, is too similar to Care IMO. It makes sense to go with a slightly different option.

Not just Robson. Spencer I rate higher. Maunder from Exeter. That lad from glaws who's name I can't remember. But to be honest I'm not that bothered who England call up at 9. Just think they can aim higher than Wiggy

They can, but I guess he's the guy that Eddie and co think will fit in fastest and fit the game plan the best. Same as Te'o vs JJ. JJ better but Te'o probably fits starting team best in absence of Billy and Hughes.

[cascough]

The "better" 9s in question, by which I assume you mean Robson, is too similar to Care IMO. It makes sense to go with a slightly different option.

Not just Robson. Spencer I rate higher. Maunder from Exeter. That lad from glaws who's name I can't remember. But to be honest I'm not that bothered who England call up at 9. Just think they can aim higher than Wiggy

Robson, as mentioned is similar to Care so surely you can see the logic of selecting someone different, even if you still think Robson is better than Wigglesworth? Maunder and Spencer aren't in the EPS so that rules them out (plus Maunder has only played about 20 mins of rugby all season and Spencer has been patchy at best this season.) That only leaves Velacott, who is so good that you can't remember his name. Good prospect, but you're dreaming if you think he's better than Wigglesworth, and that is before you consider just how much more experienced Wigglesworth is compared to the others.

I accept that Wigglesworth isn't an exciting pick to a lot of people, but unless you can actually explain why someone else would be better, I'm not convinced it's anything other than the right call. Robson I can freely accept does things Wigglesworth cannot, but as I've said, we've already got Danny Care for that.

[Guest]

North is good (ok very good) when he gets a run up, but when he doesn't I feel he's a turn over waiting to happen.

Don't agree with that. I'm not sure there's any wing with a better leg drive. And he hardly ever gets turned over.

He's not as bad as Cuthbert but the easiest way to stop him is to hit him the same time he gets the ball. He hasn't really caused England many problems over the last couple of seasons, and that has generally been because we have closed off any space he might have to build momentum. Mind you, the head injuries didn't do a lot for his quality of play either.

Injured last year, injured for the RWC, and did this in 2016:

https://youtu.be/RsrHRuyvhkM?t=3m54s

That said, I do agree, he could be so much more than he's currently shown for Wales, and that's been the case since 2012/13 really. Can't help but feel he's due a resurgence in international rugby - might not happen this 6Ns/season though - but he has to stay fit for that to happen.

[TightHEAD]

Wigglesworth is a safe pick for Eddie Jones.

Why would he take a risk?

[carpet baboon]

The "better" 9s in question, by which I assume you mean Robson, is too similar to Care IMO. It makes sense to go with a slightly different option.

Not just Robson. Spencer I rate higher. Maunder from Exeter. That lad from glaws who's name I can't remember. But to be honest I'm not that bothered who England call up at 9. Just think they can aim higher than Wiggy

Robson, as mentioned is similar to Care so surely you can see the logic of selecting someone different, even if you still think Robson is better than Wigglesworth? Maunder and Spencer aren't in the EPS so that rules them out (plus Maunder has only played about 20 mins of rugby all season and Spencer has been patchy at best this season.) That only leaves Velacott, who is so good that you can't remember his name. Good prospect, but you're dreaming if you think he's better than Wigglesworth, and that is before you consider just how much more experienced Wigglesworth is compared to the others.

I accept that Wigglesworth isn't an exciting pick to a lot of people, but unless you can actually explain why someone else would be better, I'm not convinced it's anything other than the right call. Robson I can freely accept does things Wigglesworth cannot, but as I've said, we've already got Danny Care for that.

Don't take it personally fella. As I said who England call up doesn't bother me.
I wish wiggy all the best.
Hope he starts against Ireland

[lostinwales]

North is good (ok very good) when he gets a run up, but when he doesn't I feel he's a turn over waiting to happen.

Don't agree with that. I'm not sure there's any wing with a better leg drive. And he hardly ever gets turned over.

He's not as bad as Cuthbert but the easiest way to stop him is to hit him the same time he gets the ball. He hasn't really caused England many problems over the last couple of seasons, and that has generally been because we have closed off any space he might have to build momentum. Mind you, the head injuries didn't do a lot for his quality of play either.

Injured last year, injured for the RWC, and did this in 2016:

https://youtu.be/RsrHRuyvhkM?t=3m54s

That said, I do agree, he could be so much more than he's currently shown for Wales, and that's been the case since 2012/13 really. Can't help but feel he's due a resurgence in international rugby - might not happen this 6Ns/season though - but he has to stay fit for that to happen.

We have the same problems with Tuilagi - only worse. We dream of him destroying teams on his own and hope he can come back to something like that kind of form but who knows? They are both still young.

[LordDowlais]

I am not looking forward to this game, not one bit. I just hope we give a good account of ourselves. This England side are progressing very impressively and are my tips for the next world cup.

If we get within a score by the end, I think it would be a good achievement, especially given the circumstances.

[Steffan]

I am not looking forward to this game, not one bit. I just hope we give a good account of ourselves. This England side are progressing very impressively and are my tips for the next world cup.

If we get within a score by the end, I think it would be a good achievement, especially given the circumstances.

Nice to see you back on this forum mate. Glad the Newport Mafia Mob didn't drive you off here. Bullies never win in the end

As for the match...I also think we will lose. Probably by about 15 points. Hope I am wrong though

[Jimmy Moz]

As for the match...I also think we will lose. Probably by about 15 points

Pontypridd's fault no doubt fella. I predict an England win as well. Not by 15 points though. I think it will be a close one.

[Steffan]

As for the match...I also think we will lose. Probably by about 15 points

Pontypridd's fault no doubt fella. I predict an England win as well. Not by 15 points though. I think it will be a close one.

Funnily enough mate my nephew is now playing for Ponty Youth so is probably somehow to blame for all the problems in Welsh rugby

I been on the Ponty Twitter page today and I didn't see them condoning Darren Osborne...so therefore by the Chunky Norwich/Munkian theory I can only assume that they are part of the problem. I am looking forward to the Regional 'A' sides storming towards British & Irish Cup victory though...

Sadly I think we are going to have to suck up a year of English smugness after this match. I think Wales have enough to beat them. But I England will probably be more clinical

As I say though I hope I am wrong

[Guest]

This thread has been great til you showed up Steffan.

[Steffan]

This thread has been great til you showed up Steffan.

You're welcome

This forum was great until some certain members showed up

Anyway perhaps I need to be more optimistic about Saturday. If we can get off to a good start I think we are in with a shout

Looking far more fluent in our back play with Patchell at number 10. I am impressed with the centres also

[EnglishReign]

Am I the only one who thought England actually played quite well? Looked pretty dangerous in attack to me.

Wales played well too, although the first two tries were absolute gifts and the momentum built from there. There's no doubt Wales have the quality to beat England but am expecting a narrow win still.

[SecretFly]

Am I the only one who thought England actually played quite well? Looked pretty dangerous in attack to me.

Wales played well too, although the first two tries were absolute gifts and the momentum built from there. There's no doubt Wales have the quality to beat England but am expecting a narrow win still.

Wales it seems had a lesson or two for Scotland and Townsend... I think it went like "Yeah, we're good enough."  So, like usual, Wales wanted to hunt and humiliate (in a good way! - the way all teams that want to win should approach a game.  Be ruthless if you can be)

England, to me, could have easily scored a handful more tries against Italy if they upped the tempo they'd use against a side like say Wales.  I'm not saying they'd score a bundle against Wales, I'm saying they were cruising and weren't really in a mood to show full-steam-ahead against the Italians.

So Wales and England will be coming from games where the emphasis of each was very different.  Wales will have to be as good or better than they were against Scotland and England have to show that they have those extra gears they didn't show ready and primed for tougher challenges.

[yappysnap]

Wigglesworth will be fine, he's a Gomashall kind of 9 and that's what we need on shirt notice. Obviously Borthwick is going to big him up as he's probably had a big part in his selection and knows him well.

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

[SecretFly]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though. I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.

[lostinwales]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Just not from Wiggy

[mikey_dragon]

Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

Those of us who work in an office for a living tend not to do so over the weekend.

You clearly had no problem running home from school on time to login

Haha, you should try getting out of your town more often. There's a whole wide world out there . Ironic though isn't it? You suffering with Wi-Fi issues after you insinuated that I might have them . Now all we need is for Gwlad to get his Wi-Fi back up and running before this weekend's game...

You call it ironic, I call it having a life.
Unlike you, the highlight of my weekend isn't posting on an online sports forum

No, it's ironic you accusing folk of losing their Wi-Fi, only for you to conveniently lose your Wi-Fi when Wales won .

The highlight of my weekend was skiing in Nakiska actually. Do you ski?

[yappysnap]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Just not from Wiggy

If Wiggy went for a gap he'd pop his hip

[lostinwales]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Just not from Wiggy

If Wiggy went for a gap he'd pop his hip

[Guest]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though. I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.

Me neither, if that was the case then Wigglesworth would've always been England's first choice throughout Eddie's time in charge as he has by far the best passing and kicking game of all the English SHs. I'd argue that both Youngs and Care fall half-way between these 2 types of games with solid - but far from perfect - basics and the ability raise the tempo and offer a sniping threat.

Honestly 'scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf' and 'England have never really asked too much of their 9s' in particular just look like pre-emptive barbs incase the Quins man ends up on the bench. That should really be unnecessary though, Care is far from a one-trick pony and can run the game from the start. His basics are no worse than Youngs' and if he starts ahead of Wigglesworth so should Care.

[BamBam]

Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

Those of us who work in an office for a living tend not to do so over the weekend.

You clearly had no problem running home from school on time to login

Haha, you should try getting out of your town more often. There's a whole wide world out there . Ironic though isn't it? You suffering with Wi-Fi issues after you insinuated that I might have them . Now all we need is for Gwlad to get his Wi-Fi back up and running before this weekend's game...

You call it ironic, I call it having a life.
Unlike you, the highlight of my weekend isn't posting on an online sports forum

No, it's ironic you accusing folk of losing their Wi-Fi, only for you to conveniently lose your Wi-Fi when Wales won .

The highlight of my weekend was skiing in Nakiska actually. Do you ski?

As usual, you massively miss the point. My wifi is perfectly adequate, I just chose to make better use of my free time on weekends by interacting with the real world.

I prefer warmer climes, so no I don't ski

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. English fans get accused of being posh and then you get a Welsh fan saying dom you ski!

[Poorfour]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Me neither, if that was the case then Wigglesworth would've always been England's first choice throughout Eddie's time in charge as he has by far the best passing and kicking game of all the English SHs. I'd argue that both Youngs and Care fall half-way between these 2 types of games with solid - but far from perfect - basics and the ability raise the tempo and offer a sniping threat.

Honestly 'scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf' and 'England have never really asked too much of their 9s' in particular just look like pre-emptive barbs incase the Quins man ends up on the bench. That should really be unnecessary though, Care is far from a one-trick pony and can run the game from the start. His basics are no worse than Youngs' and if he starts ahead of Wigglesworth so should Care.

It's a bit like the Barnes/Andrew, Hodgson/Wilkinson, Ford/Farrell debate at flyhalf (pre-Eddie).

England has frequently had to choose between two contrasting styles of scrum half: those whose primary style of play is to put the ball where it needs to be, whether that's in the air to chase, or in the hands of the first receiver. Dawson, Gomarsall, Wigglesworth and Youngs are all in this mould - although Daws and Youngs in particular were a helpful running threat. But we've also had the more creative scrum halves in the style of the French petit general - most notably Bracken and Care.

I thought Lancaster had cracked it in the run up to 2015 - he had a season pairing Care and Farrell (a creator and an executor), and a season of pairing Youngs and Ford (an executor and a creator) and both combinations worked well... and then in the RWC he lost the plot, dropped Ford and Care, and played Youngs and Wigglesworth with Farrell (all execution - and without a creative 12 outside them to compensate a la Daws, Wilko, Greenwoord/Catt).

Eddie's shaken that up - he plays Youngs / Ford / Farrell (execute / create / execute) with Care coming on to create later in the game. This has worked pretty well so far. And I would be both unsurprised and undismayed if he continued that by starting Wigglesworth and finishing with Care on Saturday. In fact, I'd be more surprised to see it the other way round.

[beshocked]

Funny things can happen in England vs Wales games though.... England should win but injuries to key players during games have hurt.

2008 where we lost 2 backrowers and Strettle, Tindall also got stretchered off.

2015 - Billy and Youngs - yes I realise in this game Wales had injuries too but Wales handled them better but also Billy and Youngs were making a bigger impact.

Injuries and YCs/RCs are not something you can predict with any certainty obviously!

[SecretFly]

Oh I'm on a Russian site? Can any of you chapskis tell me the way to 606V2ski?

[No 7&1/2]

It's obvious what Wigglesworth s strengths are and i feel like this is a very jones pick. Robson for me is ahead of wigglesworth on everything bar kicking. I suspect that this is the key thing that Robson has been told to improve but he's never going to get the chance to consistently demonstrate that for wasps, it would need to be in training but jones feels that it's only.reflective to have enough time and thus 2 sh. It's a bit chicken and the egg for me.

[Guest]

I suppose that's where we'll have to agree to disagree Poorfour. I don't view it as a hard creator/executor distinction because Youngs' passing technique is by far the worst part of his game and would exclude him from performing that role. If all Eddie wanted was a box-kicking SH with a quick, accurate pass to the 1st receiver ('just a link between ruck and flyhalf') then Youngs absolutely would not be the man, Wigglesworth would. As I said I think Youngs and Care both fall somewhere between Wigglesworth and Robson in being solid, but not great, at both those sides of the game.

The point wasn't for a Care vs Youngs debate (quite frankly the reason this has gone on for so long is that neither of them are the complete scrum half) but rather that Yappy's comment looks to me like an attempt to justify Care not starting in a way that was more than a touch unfair on anyone who starts ahead of him.

Anyway, for me Care passes, kicks and tackles every bit as well as Youngs, and I would be disappointed if he didn't start against Wales. I do appreciate the benefits of having a finisher that can up the pace late in the game, but for halfbacks I think there is also plenty of value in bringing on a more controlling player. I'm happy to see players like Wigglesworth or Farrell on the bench while I would never want to see Cole coming on for the final 15.

[No 7&1/2]

Dipping my foot into the waleson line site....What's happened? Talk of England's lethal backline. Stating england seem to have an advantage or parity across all areas of the team. I don't like it!

[LordDowlais]

Funny things can happen in England vs Wales games though.... England should win but injuries to key players during games have hurt.

2008 where we lost 2 backrowers and Strettle, Tindall also got stretchered off.

2015 - Billy and Youngs - yes I realise in this game Wales had injuries too but Wales handled them better but also Billy and Youngs were making a bigger impact.

Injuries and YCs/RCs are not something you can predict with any certainty obviously!

FFS.

[lostinwales]

Dipping my foot into the waleson line site....What's happened? Talk of England's lethal backline. Stating england seem to have an advantage or parity across all areas of the team. I don't like it!

I know. I was expecting to have the usual snigger at how the Welsh were going to be better across the park and it's not there. I am half disappointed

[Guest]

Dipping my foot into the waleson line site....What's happened? Talk of England's lethal backline. Stating england seem to have an advantage or parity across all areas of the team. I don't like it!

I know. I was expecting to have the usual snigger at how the Welsh were going to be better across the park and it's not there. I am half disappointed

Mutual respect?!

[Poorfour]

The very thought!

[Gooseberry]

Tghe scrum halves thing ....Care and Youngs are pretty similar players to my mind. Whats really stood out with both is their ability to make quick breaks and keep defenses tight to cover that. Neither is a great kicker, both can pass. They can both inject speed into a game when allowed to do so. Both have a spikey attitude but arent exactly Mike Phillips in defence.
Theyve been largely interchangabe on form through their careers. With Lancaster Wiggo came in to give a dramticaly different option with a territorial kicker, Jones has favoured retaining the running and fast paced attacking for all 80 minutes.
Yes England do shift their style a bit when teh " finsihers" come on but I persoanlly dont see that Youngs or Cares strengths are so differnet that either couldnt slot into and execute the role of the other. Jones has atalked openly about wanting to devleope a constant fast moving ball style of back play ...both Youngs and Care are tasked with bringing that regardless.

For me with Youngs out Care to start is an abolsute no brainer and wont affect how they play for the first 60. Jones onlky named two in the squad for a reason.

The bench spot is much more open, Wigglesworth has the expereicne but is he the right typre to deliver Englands style? I dont see how he easily slots in. Nor has he ever really been good enough to nail down a spot in worse England sides than this.
Id hope to see one of the younger players given a go on the bench.

[Gooseberry]

Dipping my foot into the waleson line site....What's happened? Talk of England's lethal backline. Stating england seem to have an advantage or parity across all areas of the team. I don't like it!

I know. I was expecting to have the usual snigger at how the Welsh were going to be better across the park and it's not there. I am half disappointed

Mutual respect?!  

More likely to see that between Beshocked and 7.5

[No 7&1/2]

Harsh.

[Poorfour]

I disagree, Gooseberry. While I take Fuzzy's point that neither has a complete skillset, Care and Youngs are very different players. Youngs is a much more conventional scrum half in the Dawson mode, with a good running game but a better box kick, whereas Care's box kicking has been a weakness he's been working on but is much more likely to do something truly creative - witness his tries against Australia or (going a long way back) his drop goal against New Zealand early in his career). But he's also more likely to do something stupid (though he's mellowed with age and it's a long while since I wrote the line "Of all sad words of Rose and Quin / The saddest are these: Danny Care's got a stupid yellow. Again").

[LondonTiger]

P4 going back to your previous comparisons I would say that Dawson and Youngs are much closer to Care in style than Bracken ever was.

[TightHEAD]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

[TightHEAD]

BTW 'the roof' will be open on Saturday!

[lostinwales]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

I don't think, given the time available and squad etc that it is a bad thing going with RW at all. Better the devil you know.

If there is an issue its the not having a 3rd choice 9 in the squad in the first place.

[TightHEAD]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

I don't think, given the time available and squad etc that it is a bad thing going with RW at all. Better the devil you know.

If there is an issue its the not having a 3rd choice 9 in the squad in the first place.

I agree with that, but if players on the fringes start to feel they are not being selected because there is no one connected to their club in the England set up, it may start to breed a negative culture.

[No 7&1/2]

Seen with obano recently as well

[Poorfour]

I agree with that, but if players on the fringes start to feel they are not being selected because there is no one connected to their club in the England set up, it may start to breed a negative culture.

I don't think it works that way at all. For one thing, there's plenty of evidence that Eddie and his team spend time with all the English clubs and talk to a far wider range of players than are in the squad. And Eddie's additions to the squad he inherited (Hill, Underhill, Mercer and the Currys, Smith, Simmonds, Graham) show that while he looks for some very specific things, he is looking all over the place - Saints, Wales, the U20s, secondary school, Exeter, Newcastle.

I'd instead expect that all players will see his willingness to use players like Tom "You're not in my squad because you're not good enough" Woods and Richard Wigglesworth having dropped them from the squad is an indication that the door is open to anyone if they can deliver what he's asking for.

Besides, wasn't Hilly's exit from Sarries quite acrimonious? He was certainly kicked out without much ceremony.

[cascough]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

He was in the EPS squad. That's hardly "the cold".

[TightHEAD]

It is if you're in it!

[doctor_grey]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Just not from Wiggy

If Wiggy went for a gap he'd pop his hip

If Wiggy went for a gap, I would pop my hip!

[cascough]

It is if you're in it!

Makes no sense.

He's one of 5 scrum halves in the EPS squad. Of the three that weren't initially picked, Wigglesworth is the most experienced by far. People are getting hot and bothered about it but the reality is he's never been that far away from a call up.

[Scottrf]

Elite Player Squad squad.

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