6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[mikey_dragon]

Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

Those of us who work in an office for a living tend not to do so over the weekend.

You clearly had no problem running home from school on time to login

Haha, you should try getting out of your town more often. There's a whole wide world out there . Ironic though isn't it? You suffering with Wi-Fi issues after you insinuated that I might have them . Now all we need is for Gwlad to get his Wi-Fi back up and running before this weekend's game...

[mikey_dragon]

I predicted a Welsh win vs Scotland, Scotland have a poor record in general away from home, Wales also have a good record vs Scotland.

On the other hand for this game - England are at home, have the better head to head vs Wales in the last few games (yes I realise Wales won in 2015 RWC but more often than not have been on the losing end).

England have less defensive frailties than Scotland. Don't expect the defence to be as leaky, Wales will have to work harder for their points IMO.

Then there's of course the England bench, whilst Scotland had little impact, England has plenty.

Wales will need to find another gear to beat England IMO.

Now of course if Wales gains some momentum they will be dangerous but I think player for player, England are superior.

Simmonds' good form should be a cause of concern for Wales because no 8 was a potential weakness going into this game but his pace and skill will be different to what Wales have faced from England in the past at 8.


As for Itoje, unfortunately he had a pretty poor day at the office. Giving away too many penalties, allowing Parisse to outfox him at the lineout, missed at least one tackle.

I hope he comes out firing vs Wales, of course he has happy memories of that 2016 game....

Well done Beshocked. You and Gatland are getting your predictions spot on. Gats just text me his prediction for this weekend, what's yours?

I'm also surprised that you're not claiming Itoje should play Wales all by himself, given how you always tell everyone how he's single-handily beat all these teams and won multiple trophies...

Wales are pretty good attacking out wide right now, we're England were supposedly weak on the weekend. With the introduction of Cory Hill we also have a much better functioning lineout. I didn't expect it but that could make him a main-stay in the team going forward. One of Williams or North will also be back in the squad, hopefully the former. I agree we need to find an extra gear for this one, and cut out those errors that left one or two tries out there against Scotland.

[No 7&1/2]

Jones wasn't trolling then, it is Wigglesworth. Obviously expecting more kicking on saturday.

[yappysnap]

I'd keep Launchbury and Lawes and bench itoje. Start Underhill against Wales

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I'd keep Launchbury and Lawes and bench itoje. Start Underhill against Wales

Not sure about that, we will need 4 jumpers to be able to compete. neither Underhill or Simmons are good lineout options and the lineout is paramount in the modern game. If Itoje is not good enough to start we need another lineout specialist in the back row; Armand anybody?

[No 7&1/2]

Well he's not in the squad so no.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Well he's not in the squad so no.

Can still be called up I believe

[No 7&1/2]

Not likely at all now considering he called up LCD today.if he was going to do not he would have.

[cascough]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

[Geordie]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wigglesworth is an experienced "solid" scrum half. He should slot in well and should give Ford / Farrell good clean service.

But...Robson has played so well this season and deserves chance.

I cant blame Eddie for going for the solid route...when theres a lot of x-factor in the backs, but at the same time i'd have been happy to see him take the chance on Robson.

[No 7&1/2]

Youngs out for 4 months.

[majesticimperialman]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wigglesworth is an experienced "solid" scrum half. He should slot in well and should give Ford / Farrell good clean service.

But...Robson has played so well this season and deserves chance.




I cant blame Eddie for going for the solid route...when theres a lot of x-factor in the backs, but at the same time i'd have been happy to see him take the chance on Robson.


I was surprised that their was only two scrum halfs in the squad, i would of thought he would of called up 2 scrum halfs  just in case any think happens to Care. He could at least have both in the training camp to get used to the squad. 

[yappysnap]

I'd keep Launchbury and Lawes and bench itoje. Start Underhill against Wales

Not sure about that, we will need 4 jumpers to be able to compete. neither Underhill or Simmons are good lineout options and the lineout is paramount in the modern game. If Itoje is not good enough to start we need another lineout specialist in the back row; Armand anybody?

True, but with those two and Robshaw we should have enough there. Surprised Simmonds doesn't get lifted with his weight. I just think we're getting subpar performance from three top players at the moment rather then top performances from two.

[yappysnap]

Wigglesworth should be fine. He'll kick well and should give Ford good ball to use. As a last minute option he's the best bet.

Otherwise it's just as likely Robson gets picked, has little time to pick up the systems, has a poor game and is discarded to never play again.

[quinsforever]

wales were awesome with 10 scarlets players. scotland were inaccurate,and defensively werent aggressive or physical enough,but wales looked dangerous in open play for the first time in many years.

i am nervous. it's going to be a great test match. i can see it going either way. hope england will win. but wales playing like scarlets, not like wales, are no joke.

hope everyone is well. had another baby so have been distracted for a while

[Scottrf]

wales were awesome with 10 scarlets players. scotland were inaccurate,and defensively werent aggressive or physical enough,but wales looked dangerous in open play for the first time in many years.

i am nervous. it's going to be a great test match. i can see it going either way. hope england will win. but wales playing like scarlets, not like wales, are no joke.

hope everyone is well. had another baby so have been distracted for a while

Congrats.

And I agree, this will be a great test match.

[cascough]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wigglesworth is an experienced "solid" scrum half. He should slot in well and should give Ford / Farrell good clean service.

But...Robson has played so well this season and deserves chance.

I cant blame Eddie for going for the solid route...when theres a lot of x-factor in the backs, but at the same time i'd have been happy to see him take the chance on Robson.

If Care had gone down, I'd agree. Being that it's Youngs, I reckon Care and Robson are pretty similar so I can see the logic.

[doctor_grey]

Wigglesworth should be fine. He'll kick well

He has had a lot of practice..................

If Wigglesworth actually gets in the game it means either:
Care is injured (bad)
or
England are comfortably ahead late on and have a lead to protect (good)

[yappysnap]

I can see Mr Wigglesworth starting. Care is a brilliant finisher to have on the bench.

Plus if Care starts and gets hurt then we could have a whole game of the Wig

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah I can see Wigglesworth starting. Depressing for me due to the likely tactics. Anything stephen jones is man sausage a hoop about means I feel trepidation .

[Poorfour]

Yeah I can see Wigglesworth starting. Depressing for me due to the likely tactics. Anything stephen jones is man sausage a hoop about means I feel trepidation .

I don't have a problem with it, in part because Eddie demonstrably doesn't care what pundits want to see. Wigglesworth's job will be to do contestable box kicks and whip the ball to Ford and Farrell, and he will do that very well. Care's job will be to look for ways to get behind the defence if it's a bot slow to react, and he does that best when defences are a bit more tired.

[No 7&1/2]

If he's fast in his distribution and putting it on a 6 pence great. If he plays like he has for his other 27 caps or so. Less good.

Though I think if he doesn't perform to a certain level jones will jettison him.

[TightHEAD]

I don't think Care is a starter, nor does Eddie btw.

Care is everything a finisher should be, breaks the game up and gives it an injection of pace.

[BamBam]

Many thanks to whoever banned Gwlad for a week in the lead up to this

Welcome back BamBam, so glad you managed to get your wifi back up and running.

Those of us who work in an office for a living tend not to do so over the weekend.

You clearly had no problem running home from school on time to login

Haha, you should try getting out of your town more often. There's a whole wide world out there . Ironic though isn't it? You suffering with Wi-Fi issues after you insinuated that I might have them . Now all we need is for Gwlad to get his Wi-Fi back up and running before this weekend's game...

You call it ironic, I call it having a life.
Unlike you, the highlight of my weekend isn't posting on an online sports forum

[Guest]

I get that Care is more effective off the bench, but Wigglesworth coming straight into the starting lineup would still be a fairly damning reflection of Jones' faith in Care's ability to run the first 60. Sinckler (when available) performs a similar role but I don't believe an injury to Cole would result in him remaining on the bench, nor George with Hartley. Or any regular England finisher tbh.

More importantly it would make the concerns about Eddie's seeming lack of interest in a 3rd scrum half massively understated if 1 of the 2 is considered only a bench option.

[beshocked]

I predicted a Welsh win vs Scotland, Scotland have a poor record in general away from home, Wales also have a good record vs Scotland.

On the other hand for this game - England are at home, have the better head to head vs Wales in the last few games (yes I realise Wales won in 2015 RWC but more often than not have been on the losing end).

England have less defensive frailties than Scotland. Don't expect the defence to be as leaky, Wales will have to work harder for their points IMO.

Then there's of course the England bench, whilst Scotland had little impact, England has plenty.

Wales will need to find another gear to beat England IMO.

Now of course if Wales gains some momentum they will be dangerous but I think player for player, England are superior.

Simmonds' good form should be a cause of concern for Wales because no 8 was a potential weakness going into this game but his pace and skill will be different to what Wales have faced from England in the past at 8.


As for Itoje, unfortunately he had a pretty poor day at the office. Giving away too many penalties, allowing Parisse to outfox him at the lineout, missed at least one tackle.

I hope he comes out firing vs Wales, of course he has happy memories of that 2016 game....

Well done Beshocked. You and Gatland are getting your predictions spot on. Gats just text me his prediction for this weekend, what's yours?

I'm also surprised that you're not claiming Itoje should play Wales all by himself, given how you always tell everyone how he's single-handily beat all these teams and won multiple trophies...

Wales are pretty good attacking out wide right now, we're England were supposedly weak on the weekend. With the introduction of Cory Hill we also have a much better functioning lineout. I didn't expect it but that could make him a main-stay in the team going forward. One of Williams or North will also be back in the squad, hopefully the former. I agree we need to find an extra gear for this one, and cut out those errors that left one or two tries out there against Scotland.

Well no I am not pretending I made a prediction unlike Gatland. There's obvious posts which prove I thought Wales would beat Scotland. I said by 11 so a bit out admittedly.

Probably England win by 10-15.

Nah, Itoje hasn't single handedly beat all teams, did put in a huge performance vs Wales in 2016 though. Itoje had an off day vs Italy.

Wales might have looked good attacking wide vs Scotland. I did highlight Scotland as defensively suspect before the game and that leaving out Maitland of the starting line up was a mistake.

England are a much tougher prospect, far more organised and have much more belief than Scotland. Physically, England are stronger too.



I wouldn't have picked Wigglesworth, I feel it's a step in the wrong direction - he's 34. He's organised but not pacy.

I guess it shows a lack of faith in Spencer or Robson or one of the Exeter 9s.

[TightHEAD]

I think the safer option is to start Wigglesworth, but do we want to play safe and hope the finishers get us over the line, or do we go out there and blitz Wales in the first half and lay a marker.

I trust Eddie to do the right thing but Saturday is going to be a nail-bitter if we continue to look exposed out wide.

[carpet baboon]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

And on the flip side? Your down a score, nice dry weather, need to up the tempo?
I understand why he's been called up, and as an Ireland supporter would rather see him playing than Robson, and Eddie clearly trusts him, but just think England have better options available

[TightHEAD]

Wales team - Unchanged
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).
Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).

[Guest]

*Breaking News* Wales have named an unchanged team for Saturday.

Edit: Damnit! You beat me to it!

[TightHEAD]

We know!

[lostinwales]

George North as a finisher. Might work.

[SecretFly]

This is going to be a Cecil B De Mille production.

My popcorn is ready

[lostinwales]

I think the vulnerability out wide is being overstated. We got done by a couple of very good passes but Watson and May have a good few caps between them on the wings and it is not something that has been particularly marked before.

Maybe it is more a problem with Te'o - in that JJ is a very accomplished defender against the fast guys - but then Te'o's defence also shuts off attacks before they get any further out.

They are more than capable of causing problems for Wales too.

[Guest]

I'm not expecting England to be vulnerable out wide. I don't really see any weakness in the England team. It's going to be extremely difficult to get anything out of the game for Wales. I just hope that Wales find a way to make it tough for England to get anything too.

[cascough]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

And on the flip side? Your down a score, nice dry weather, need to up the tempo?
I understand why he's been called up, and as an Ireland supporter would rather see him playing than Robson, and Eddie clearly trusts him, but just think England have better options available

I'm not suggesting he is a player for all occasions...I was pointing out that no-one is. So why do people always assume that the guy you need on the bench has to be an "up the tempo" type of guy. Every game is different.

[carpet baboon]

Is wiggs really the next best 9 England have.?  For me he's a bit meh alright but nothing special pretty steady but not gonna make much of an impact as a sub

Sigh. This again. Depends doesn't it? What if it's really tight and England are losing the battle at the breakdown, we may need to play territory. What if it's absolutely chucking it down, Wigglesworth would be absolutely perfect.

And on the flip side? Your down a score, nice dry weather, need to up the tempo?
I understand why he's been called up, and as an Ireland supporter would rather see him playing than Robson, and Eddie clearly trusts him, but just think England have better options available

I'm not suggesting he is a player for all occasions...I was pointing out that no-one is. So why do people always assume that the guy you need on the bench has to be an "up the tempo" type of guy. Every game is different.

It is.
I just think there are better 9s available. That's all

[cascough]

The "better" 9s in question, by which I assume you mean Robson, is too similar to Care IMO. It makes sense to go with a slightly different option.

[lostinwales]

I'm not expecting England to be vulnerable out wide.  I don't really see any weakness in the England team.  It's going to be extremely difficult to get anything out of the game for Wales.  I just hope that Wales find a way to make it tough for England to get anything too.

I am sure they will. They don't always raise their game vs England but often they do. Because of the changes in the team we can't even rely on just shutting them down for most of the match like we have in previous years.

It will be interesting to see how the new Welsh backline does hold together. Liam Williams is a genuine threat and I am glad we do not have to face him. North is good (ok very good) when he gets a run up, but when he doesn't I feel he's a turn over waiting to happen. His defense isn't all it could be either.

[Scottrf]

North is good (ok very good) when he gets a run up, but when he doesn't I feel he's a turn over waiting to happen.

Don't agree with that. I'm not sure there's any wing with a better leg drive. And he hardly ever gets turned over.

[lostinwales]

North is good (ok very good) when he gets a run up, but when he doesn't I feel he's a turn over waiting to happen.

Don't agree with that. I'm not sure there's any wing with a better leg drive. And he hardly ever gets turned over.

He's not as bad as Cuthbert but the easiest way to stop him is to hit him the same time he gets the ball. He hasn't really caused England many problems over the last couple of seasons, and that has generally been because we have closed off any space he might have to build momentum. Mind you, the head injuries didn't do a lot for his quality of play either.

[No 7&1/2]

Anyone reckon mercer has a chance on making the bench. Offers a bit more cover overal for the back row.

[Poorfour]

England (and various club sides) have also made a bit of mileage against North by just forcing him to turn repeatedly. He was very good against Quins last Friday, though. Huge leg drive from a standing start. But the trick is, as LIW says, to stop him before he gets started.

[beshocked]

Wouldn't too much into an Anglo welsh game where Saints seem to be targeting their efforts....

A 2nd string Quins at home, instead the same as a strong England side away from home...

[No 7&1/2]

Don't want to bog down the ireland thread with england tactics but is there something to worry about with discipline? We seemed to get the ref was being lenient to italy so maybe pushed him more than we would others close to the line. Other pens were more about breaking the line and not supporting well enough hence pens.for holding on?

[Recwatcher16]

When I look at two test teams, I would usually look to see if any opposition player would be better pick. I would take Davies at SH and maybe Shingler on current form, but that's about it.
EJ was at the Rec when Scarlets sliced Bath with some great offloading (that Irish lock is a prospect). EJ will have noticed that Scott Williams at 13 missed about ten tackles during the game, Bath were simply not good enough on the day to take advantage of the line breaks.
I think England will target the Welsh scrum and then watch the Simmonds take-off ! Lineout will be pretty even though.
I am not aware of who the ref is but so long as it isn't Steve Walsh I don't care.
Wales will have to put in a performance not yet seen to win this game - which is possible. Howver home advantage and a stronger bench wins out.

[TightHEAD]

I am not aware of who the ref is but so long as it isn't Steve Walsh I don't care.

Jérôme Garcès (France)




Can't help but think that guy has a deep hatred against England, and the rules of the game.

I'd rather have Nigel Owens in charge. Seriously.

[Guest]

When I look at two test teams, I would usually look to see if any opposition player would be better pick. I would take Davies at SH and maybe Shingler on current form, but that's about it.
EJ was at the Rec when Scarlets sliced Bath with some great offloading (that Irish lock is a prospect). EJ will have noticed that Scott Williams at 13 missed about ten tackles during the game, Bath were simply not good enough on the day to take advantage of the line breaks.
I think England will target the Welsh scrum and then watch the Simmonds take-off ! Lineout will be pretty even though.
I am not aware of who the ref is but so long as it isn't Steve Walsh I don't care.
Wales will have to put in a performance not yet seen to win this game - which is possible. Howver home advantage and a stronger bench wins out.

Agree we will have to be rock solid and watertight in defense if we are to stand a chance. I think Scott Williams generally is pretty good in defense. Sure he was praised for it against Scotland. But yes, if he was poor against Bath then definitely something to target. Not sure if the Scarlets (i.e. Wales back line) play a different defensive pattern or formation to Wales' and Sean Edwards formation? Saying that, early on against Scotland there were plenty of Scotland breaks of the Welsh defense so guess there are some issues.

[No 7&1/2]

"Firstly he's an outstanding player who brings a great experience and knowledge of the game, he's been playing at the top level of European rugby for a long time now.

"I was sitting in meetings with him this morning and the input he has, the experience he has, the ideas he has have been excellent.

"He's come into camp and straight away fitted in seamlessly with the players, picking up all the calls and everything he needs to do.

"One thing that always stands out for me is always how fit and the great condition he's in, for a player in that position you need to be and he certainly is that.

"All the times I used to see him in the fitness tests in the summer when we did fitness testing, there was always him and Neil de Kock at the front and he's continued that - he's playing well and is in fantastic shape."

Bit of bias creeping in with coaches. Borthwick on Wigglesworth.

[lostinwales]

To be honest brains are generally the most useful property for a player coming into a situation like this. It would be a great opportunity to bring in an extra 9 now just in case he doesnt work out or if there is another injury

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