Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

First topic message reminder :

So, Wales have gone with Dan Biggar, Liam Williams & Leigh Halfpenny for the game against Ireland. George North & Gareth Anscombe drop to the bench, and Rhys Patchell & Josh Adams drop out of the match day squad. Not bad decisions in my opinion, though I think I might have had Patchell on the bench over Anscombe... and possibly switched Halfpenny & Williams- I just think Williams offers more threat from fullback than Halfpenny does.

Wales Team:
Halfpenny (Scarlets); L Williams (Saracens), S Williams (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Lee (Scarlets), Hill (Dragons), AW Jones (Ospreys capt), Shingler (Scarlets), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements:
Dee (Dragons), W Jones (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), B Davies (Ospreys), Tipuric (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets), Anscombe (Blues), North (Northampton).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43127349

Ireland Team:
Kearney; Earls, Farrell, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Porter; James Ryan, Toner; O'Mahony, Leavy, Stander.

Replacements: Cronin, McGrath, John Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carbery, McFadden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43152956

Fair comment ASLS. To me, it is a pet hate of mine that referees do not card players simply because a team has scored.

I see, not just on here but on other media, Rob Kearney getting a lot of stick for yesterdays performance. I actually thought he was very good. Did I miss a bucket load of mistakes he made?

eirebilly wrote:Fair comment ASLS. To me, it is a pet hate of mine that referees do not card players simply because a team has scored.

I see, not just on here but on other media, Rob Kearney getting a lot of stick for yesterdays performance. I actually thought he was very good. Did I miss a bucket load of mistakes he made?

Well...if you're going to be picky about visuals and mistakes.... there was that very visible drop-goal attempt.   Oh he did an absolute classic some years ago - one of the very best you'll ever see - but it would have been better just holding onto possession this time.

But that's me nitpicking. It's not something I'd be concerned about overall in the game.
No, I'm just continuously more concerned that he just doesn't have the legs anymore to even attempt a cut-loose and virtually always decides to just 'safely' run to contact instead.  For him it probably is the best decision to make - and the team know what to do to support him and keep possession.  But billy, come on, you know we'd have a chance of purring better in attack if we had a more mobile and youthful 15 that would make the opposition have to guess more.  Kearney has had a great period with Ireland, but like Geordan Murphy before him, he's had injuries and his va va voom has been stalled these last number of years.

Schmidt has still never lost a game at home in the six nations.

Also Ireland are now on a 10 match win streak. Scotland next werk for Irelands all time record win streak.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Fair comment ASLS. To me, it is a pet hate of mine that referees do not card players simply because a team has scored.

I see, not just on here but on other media, Rob Kearney getting a lot of stick for yesterdays performance. I actually thought he was very good. Did I miss a bucket load of mistakes he made?

Well...if you're going to be picky about visuals and mistakes.... there was that very visible drop-goal attempt.   Oh he did an absolute classic some years ago - one of the very best you'll ever see - but it would have been better just holding onto possession this time.

But that's me nitpicking.  It's not something I'd be concerned about overall in the game.
No, I'm just continuously more concerned that he just doesn't have the legs anymore to even attempt a cut-loose and virtually always decides to just 'safely' run to contact instead.  For him it probably is the best decision to make - and the team know what to do to support him and keep possession.  But billy, come on, you know we'd have a chance of purring better in attack if we had a more mobile and youthful 15 that would make the opposition have to guess more.  Kearney has had a great period with Ireland, but like Geordan Murphy before him, he's had injuries and his va va voom has been stalled these last number of years.

I am one of Kearney's biggest critics but I cant really fault his performance yesterday. I thought he offered himself up for a lot of work, ran very good lines and defended well. You can have a go at the DG but I thought it was an option that was on.

As I have said, I would love a younger player to be given the chance over him but I cannot fault him on yesterdays performance. Believe me, I would if I could

My only gripe yesterday was McFadden. Not sure if Earls went off injured (seen nothing on it) but McFadden was terrible in the time he was on, 2 missed (well they wont count as he never even got a hand on the attackers) missed, 1 attempt at hitting the ruck (came in from the side and very lucky not to be penalised) and a knock on. The man is just not up to international rugby. That is a position I would like to see used for younger talent to make an impact from the bench (Larmour for Kearney perhaps).

Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Stockdale is excellent in attack, not so good in defence but will get better with experience. In him and Earls, I think Ireland have the best wingers in the 6N.

Also there are 28 players who have scored more trys than him.

carpet baboon wrote:Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Exactly. Hero or arch villain moment for him.

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Exactly.  Hero or arch villain moment for him.

80th minute.
Wales going for the win.
He gets it wrong Wales win.
Massive Steele danglies on the lad

Tries............................. hmmmm.  There's the team that only a few weeks ago was told it can't score tries.

But.... do we see the kind of game we play that gets tries scored?  It wasn't a sitting back and defending game because, let's face it, you couldn't afford that kind of game against Wales anymore than you can play it against the ABs.  'Defences win games', they say; but only if you've gotten enough out of determined and genuine attack.  I was very pleased with Ireland's intent to be the aggressor side yesterday.  We do need to force our authority on games and hold onto that aggression right to the end.  It's also an easier game to play so a double bonus.

Wales started climbing back into the game only because we started to become less greedy for possession when well ahead.  We have to cut that habit out.  Boot to the floor for the 80.  It was much better from Ireland but we have to take that determination abroad too into away games.

carpet baboon wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Exactly.  Hero or arch villain moment for him.

80th minute.
Wales going for the win.
He gets it wrong Wales win.
Massive Steele danglies on the lad

Helped by the fact it was passed straight to him! He didn’t need to work that hard for it!

The Oracle wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Exactly.  Hero or arch villain moment for him.

80th minute.
Wales going for the win.
He gets it wrong Wales win.
Massive Steele danglies on the lad

Helped by the fact it was passed straight to him! He didn’t need to work that hard for it!

Perfectly read for me, he was so far out of the defensive line that he was in perfect position for the intercept.

carpet baboon wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Can we take a moment to mention Stockdale. 7 caps and 8 trys.
Can he keep that strike rate up.
And he showed some balls going for the intercept.

Exactly.  Hero or arch villain moment for him.

80th minute.
Wales going for the win.
He gets it wrong Wales win.
Massive Steele danglies on the lad

I'd see a vet about those. Don't want them unbalancing him in future games. Time to eunuchise him for the sake of Ireland's WC hopes! Everyone must make the sacrifices.

Defensively Ireland look very vunerable, especially out wide. I think they have held close to 70% possession in their opening 3 games but allowed 7 tries which is I dont think is sustainable in terms of winning a grand slam. Kearney looks past it at top level and I dont think Aki will ever be good enough at international level. Stockdale offers a lot offensively but is shaky defensively. The communication defensively in the wider areas seems very mixed up. I think its a concern that with all their possiession and territory, they were losing against France in the final mnute and only 3 points up against Wales in the final minute.

They have an awesome pack though and world class half backs which have kept the ball off the oppositon long enough to protect their defensive frailties. I dont see them holding the same kind of possesson or territory in Twickenham and I think England will be able to beat them by 10-20 points.

catchweight wrote:Defensively Ireland look very vunerable, especially out wide. I think they have held close to 70% possession in their opening 3 games but allowed 7 tries which is I dont think is sustainable in terms of winning a grand slam. Kearney looks past it at top level and I dont think Aki will ever be good enough at international level. Stockdale offers a lot offensively but is shaky defensively. The communication defensively in the wider areas seems very mixed up. I think its a concern that with all their possiession and territory, they were losing against France in the final mnute and only 3 points up against Wales in the final minute.

They have an awesome pack though and world class half backs which have kept the ball off the oppositon long enough to protect their defensive frailties. I dont see them holding the same kind of possesson or territory in Twickenham and I think England will be able to beat them by 10-20 points.

10-20 points?

England are not Wales or France.

Yes 10 to 20 points providing its not poor weather conditions and Farrell is not injured.

I think Ireland will be there for the taking in Twickenham, especially if they have the additional pressure of playing for a Grand Slam. England might be already be out of contention by then but I still expect a much improved performance at home and I think Irelands defence, especially in the back 3 is all over the place.

catchweight wrote:Yes 10 to 20 points providing its not poor weather conditions and Farrell is not injured.

I think Ireland will be there for the taking in Twickenham, especially if they have the additional pressure of playing for a Grand Slam. England might be already be out of contention by then but I still expect a much improved performance at home and I think Irelands defence, especially in the back 3 is all over the place.

....but, but...but......... sure like, we might be expecting our defence to be much improved by then too. If England can improve on the parts of their game that were exposed by Scotland then Joe must already be on to that iffy defending we're at on the fringes. He'll have to have a serious talk with Farrell.

catchweight wrote:Yes 10 to 20 points providing its not poor weather conditions and Farrell is not injured.

I think Ireland will be there for the taking in Twickenham, especially if they have the additional pressure of playing for a Grand Slam. England might be already be out of contention by then but I still expect a much improved performance at home and I think Irelands defence, especially in the back 3 is all over the place.

So it’s 10-20 points if it’s not wet and if Owen Farrell is not injured and because Ireland won’t be able to sustain those levels of possession against England like they did against them last year or against teams this year.

What are England going to do different to Wales, France or Italy that’s going to change that possession/breakdown picture?

Stockdale has a lot of improving to defensively and I think Kearney is just past it and not going to improve anymore.

I think holding such high stats in territory and possession in their first 3 games has allowed Ireland to win. But In Twickenham I think England will have equal possession and territory and I think their backline will do real damage against that Ireland team out wide and with kicks in behind for May and Watson to chase.

The caveat is obvously good weather conditions and Farrell being fit, who is absolutely key.

Pot Hale wrote:

catchweight wrote:Yes 10 to 20 points providing its not poor weather conditions and Farrell is not injured.

I think Ireland will be there for the taking in Twickenham, especially if they have the additional pressure of playing for a Grand Slam. England might be already be out of contention by then but I still expect a much improved performance at home and I think Irelands defence, especially in the back 3 is all over the place.

So it’s 10-20 points if it’s not wet and if Owen Farrell is not injured and because Ireland won’t be able to sustain those levels of possession against England like they did against them last year or against teams this year.

What are England going to do different to Wales, France or Italy that’s going to change that possession/breakdown picture?

They will hold the ball more for more than 30% of the match and turn that possession into points, because Irelands defence is shaky.

England will have to play very differently to how they played against Scotland to hold onto the ball against Ireland. they kept on kicking the ball away and lost 15 turnovers to Scotland. do that against Ireland and they will be beaten.

Playing at home is whole different game. Ireland will have to be much better defensively to beat England away, where EJ have yet to lose a game.

I dont think currently that Eng, Ire, Sco or Wales are good enough teams to justify a fvourties tag against each other when playing away from home.

Even a mediocre France team are still hard to beat at home and may well beat England.

catchweight wrote:

They will hold the ball more for more than 30% of the match and turn that possession into points, because Irelands defence is shaky.

Scotland scored 3 tries against England in their first half.  Ireland scored 5 against a side that certainly had an equal ability to England to catch out our iffy defence.  They did - 3 times.   Italy got past us - 3 times.  But Ireland scored 8 against Italy and 5 against Wales.

So yes, England will concentrate on our defence.  But first they'll need good quality ball.  Ireland are the toughest side in the competition to get possession off and hold it.  So, if Ireland can play like they can and England play like they can, England will have their window to score tries - but Ireland score them too in their windows.

Don't get me wrong.  You have a right to be confident and who knows, England could catch us out and do serious damage to us (stranger things have happened so far in this 6N).  England could very well get their big enough win if we are off the pace required.  But Ireland are growing stronger the longer they are together in evidential terms.

Yes Ireland have a might pack and the best half back pairing in the tournament. If they have 70% possession they might well win. But as I said before there was still only a penalty in it against France and Wales for all their possession and territory.

I suspect away from home against a strong team like England they wont get near 70% possession. If its closer to 50/50 or if England get more then I think they will score points than Ireland at a higher rate and really exposre that Irish backline.

catchweight wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

catchweight wrote:Yes 10 to 20 points providing its not poor weather conditions and Farrell is not injured.

I think Ireland will be there for the taking in Twickenham, especially if they have the additional pressure of playing for a Grand Slam. England might be already be out of contention by then but I still expect a much improved performance at home and I think Irelands defence, especially in the back 3 is all over the place.

So it’s 10-20 points if it’s not wet and if Owen Farrell is not injured and because Ireland won’t be able to sustain those levels of possession against England like they did against them last year or against teams this year.

What are England going to do different to Wales, France or Italy that’s going to change that possession/breakdown picture?

They will hold the ball more for more than 30% of the match and turn that possession into points, because Irelands defence is shaky.

I’m sure that France, Italy and Wales intended to have the ball for more than 30% of the match. So what are England going to DO so they change the possession/breakdown stats? It’s not enough to simply say that they will, I’m asking you how they’re going to do it.

They won't kick, Pot.

SecretFly wrote:They won't kick, Pot.

Thanks, Fly.

What do you mean what are they going to DO? They are going to play rugby and compete. They are going to hold onto possession much more effectively.

Do you think Ireland have a pre-ordained right to hold 70% possession? How many matches has England lost at home under Jones? What are Ireland going to DO about that?

England will be favourites to win at home at rightfully so. I dont think I need justify a case for them holding more than 30% possession. They are more than a good enough team to do so. England are strong team and will be even stronger with home field advantage.

Sounds like this has morphed into the new England v Ireland match thread. Not a problem. But can someone just change the thread title, please.

Now, now, Oracle Everyone is welcome on this here thread. Remember that the Irish fighting amongst themselves about ROG and Sexton took up most of this Ireland v Wales thread.

Yeah, like I said it’s not a problem. There’s little interest in Ireland v Wales. So just get Noble Surfer to change the title so we don’t come on here looking for the Wales chat!

I'll try and get him to change it to Ireland V Ireland. But World Rugby might frown on that and sue him so........................ we'll see.

SecretFly wrote:I'll try and get him to change it to Ireland V Ireland.  But World Rugby might frown on that and sue him so........................ we'll see.

Ireland v Ireland.... that would get LD and PhillBB talking! “How are we meant to compete?! Despicable! Oh, and disgusting!”

P.s. I guess this was just my (perhaps not so) polite way of saying to start an England v Ireland thread instead!

Oh God no. Not yet. We have two weeks of the Scottish lads, all 687 of them, talking us to death on the next game. Oh by Christ, we're going to be outnumbered on that one! No time for ROG'n'Sexy chit chat there.

SecretFly wrote:Oh God no.  Not yet.  We have two weeks of the Scottish lads, all 687 of them, talking us to death on the next game.  Oh by Christ, we're going to be outnumbered on that one!  No time for ROG'n'Sexy chit chat there.

And TJ, back from self imposed exile and riding the crest of the wave, posting advice to rest of the rugby nations, in as many threads as possible, about how their team should play rugby! Heeeeeeelp!

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh God no.  Not yet.  We have two weeks of the Scottish lads, all 687 of them, talking us to death on the next game.  Oh by Christ, we're going to be outnumbered on that one!  No time for ROG'n'Sexy chit chat there.

And TJ, back from self imposed exile and riding the crest of the wave, posting advice to rest of the rugby nations, in as many threads as possible, about how their team should play rugby! Heeeeeeelp!

He might have a point though, just sayin like...

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh God no.  Not yet.  We have two weeks of the Scottish lads, all 687 of them, talking us to death on the next game.  Oh by Christ, we're going to be outnumbered on that one!  No time for ROG'n'Sexy chit chat there.

And TJ, back from self imposed exile and riding the crest of the wave, posting advice to rest of the rugby nations, in as many threads as possible, about how their team should play rugby! Heeeeeeelp!

He might have a point though, just sayin like...tea

Really? Seems like he goes very quiet when Scotland lose. In fact, the stuff he's talking about today can equally be applied to Scotland and their inconsistency of late!

catchweight wrote:What do you mean what are they going to DO? They are going to play rugby and compete. They are going to hold onto possession much more effectively.

Do you think Ireland have a pre-ordained right to hold 70% possession? How many matches has England lost at home under Jones? What are Ireland going to DO about that?

England will be favourites to win at home at rightfully so. I dont think I need justify a case for them holding more than 30% possession. They are more than a good enough team to do so. England are strong team and will be even stronger with home field advantage.

Yes Ireland are using a game plan whereby they keep possession for 60-70% of the game. I thought you might be able to tell how England would combat that, or retain possession more when they had the ball. Never mind, I’m sure Eddie Jones will have a plan.

The Oracle wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh God no.  Not yet.  We have two weeks of the Scottish lads, all 687 of them, talking us to death on the next game.  Oh by Christ, we're going to be outnumbered on that one!  No time for ROG'n'Sexy chit chat there.

And TJ, back from self imposed exile and riding the crest of the wave, posting advice to rest of the rugby nations, in as many threads as possible, about how their team should play rugby! Heeeeeeelp!

He might have a point though, just sayin like...tea

Really? Seems like he goes very quiet when Scotland lose. In fact, the stuff he's talking about today can equally be applied to Scotland and their inconsistency of late!

You’re probably right. But sure when your team wins, you have always have a lot more to say than when it loses. Unless you’re from New Zealand when it’s the other way round.

I seem to have really got under your skin oracle. Dunno why. there is a foes list on this forum so you don't have to see my posts

Oh no.....! Busted.

eirebilly wrote:My only gripe yesterday was McFadden. Not sure if Earls went off injured (seen nothing on it) but McFadden was terrible in the time he was on,

I may be wrong, but considering Murray took over kicking duites and he seemed to be on his last legs too, I think McFadden was Plan C for place kicking.

As it all turned out, I'm glad Joe took Earls of his wing for McFadden rather than Stockdale. Don't think McFadden would have been tall enough to catch the intercept

Just a word of caution on that intercept talk.

I spoke before the weekend about the Scotland v England game, and I was warning the showy and risky passers, Scotland, to beware of the intercepts.  But it seems Townsend didn't need to be warned - he kinda has an idea that his side's Harlem Globetrotting ways might be marked down for a planned intercept or three.  So I think I noticed at least once in the first half when an English player homed in for an intercept, Scotland seemed to be aware of it and almost drew the player into a trap, then the ball went over his head and out to a Scottish player.

Stockdale got his intercept - eventually - and thank God for it.  But he tried one earlier, ran away from his defensive line and Wales scored a try.

Scotland and England will do their homework.  They'll factor in the eagerness of Stockdale to try those intercepts.  They might even put some planned tasters out there for him to rush at.  Schmidt better tell him to be careful and perhaps the intercept attempts should now be dropped for the season as things get really really serious in the 'small margins' department.  Do things they don't expect now, rather than repeating things that they'll now expect.

This particular intercept was helped by the poor pass from Anscombe. Telegraphed, you might say. The only way it would have reached the Welsh player is if it bounced and skipped along the floor and got to him eventually. Terrible pass! Straight into the channel half way between Anscombe and the next Welsh player (I forget who it was).

Stockdale got his intercept - eventually - and thank God for it.  But he tried one earlier, ran away from his defensive line and Wales scored a try.

It was high risk rugby alright, if he'd missed that intercept Wales would likely have scored but those are the fine margins we seem to win by. A drop goal against France and an intercept against Wales. The fact that we dominated the possession and territory stats so convincingly at the weekend shouldn't have seen us defending our win in the 80th minute. I'm positive that Schmidt and Farrell will both have been livid.

Still, it's another win......just.

Fantastic game and great result for Ireland.

I thought Farrell was deserved MOTM for his first half performance but Keith Earls again was just superb. His defensive work and chasing kicks is incredible and belies his size. I've never been a big fan but he is just on fire.

Sextons place kicking nearly cost us the game but aside from this He and Murray just bossed the game and the 2 young guys in the pack, Porter and Ryan really stood up.

On the negative side once again we struggled to put a team away when we were so dominant in terms of territory and possession.

Until Stockdale sealed it at the death it looked like Wales were going to sucker punch us.

With Scotland and England still to come there has to be real concern at the amount of tries we are leaking in the wide channels.

Overall delighted with the win and to be sitting 5 points clear. I think there is a good chance we will wrap up the title with a game to spare but equally plausible is we could yet lose ourremaining two games and any one from England, Scotland or France could lift the championship.

If Sexton had his boots on the right feet we would have been out of sight, but we will forgive him for saving us against France.

Certainly not good for the heart watching Ireland!

Pete330v2 wrote:Stockdale got his intercept - eventually - and thank God for it.  But he tried one earlier, ran away from his defensive line and Wales scored a try.

It was high risk rugby alright, if he'd missed that intercept Wales would likely have scored but those are the fine margins we seem to win by. A drop goal against France and an intercept against Wales. The fact that we dominated the possession and territory stats so convincingly at the weekend shouldn't have seen us defending our win in the 80th minute. I'm positive that Schmidt and Farrell will both have been livid.

Still, it's another win......just.

Two things there.  I think it's always been a defensive frailty of ours - being stretched by high dynamic running sides.  So I wouldn't blame Farrell for the habit.  It didn't develop under him and must have something to do our strategic intent to impose ourselves in other areas of the field (ie. - the famous ruck resourcing that all players must show a keen interest in if they are in the general vicinity of one).  
I don't blame him for the existence of it before he came but he's had his time with us now and we've had three games in this 6N, and it's okay to keep being livid but it needs solving in a serious way - pronto.  That's his department in consultation with Schmidt and the other coaches.

I think we need different defensive plans for different stages in a game.  The more an opponent side goes behind that has the legs to lose a more rigid game plan and just go for broke (Wales, England, Scotland), the more we should adapt our defensive shape to contain the new mood that comes at us.  I just think that defensive plan of ours must be too rigid and players feel compelled to stick to orders that fit a different period of the game under different conditions.

rapidsnowman wrote:If Sexton had his boots on the right feet we would have been out of sight, but we will forgive him for saving us against France.

Certainly not good for the heart watching Ireland!

The fact that we got the score we did was kinda tied in to his failure with the boot.  He got mad with himself and got stuck in to his other duties.  And boy did he drive the team in his other duties.  So - without the self-flagellation going on in his mind - would Ireland have been in the right tempo to have the 30 points anyway?

We'll never know.  Complex man, that Sexton.  I luvvs him