Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

Standulstermen wrote:Ach Pete theres hardly a need to go down that route. It isnt being too old fashioned to believe the way they spoke about women in general is disqualifying and immature in the extreme. Evidence perhaps of the culture change that is needed within the organisation at that level?

It could also be that Redman believes their lack of judgement (and not the acts they were engaging in) has cost Ulster dear and as such they shouldn't just be welcomed back with open arms.

Do you think most young lads around the country aren't boasting about their sexual conquests?
Do you think that in such boasts the lads are describing their conquests as beautiful, dreamy young ladies?

If so then you need to open your eyes Stand, this kind of thing will be happening most weekends all over Ulster. Maybe the lads involved don't have respect for the girls because they didn't respect themselves in the first place. Maybe over the top, boastful banter between testosterone filled young lads is just that, boastful banter, not meant to be taken as a measure of their respect for the opposite sex.

Pete330v2 wrote:
Do you think most young lads around the country aren't boasting about their sexual conquests?
Do you think that in such boasts the lads are describing their conquests as beautiful, dreamy young ladies?

I think it may be extremely common in teenagers and students but I would suggest to you that it is not typical of 24-26 year old's to be boasting about their conquests on whassap.

I ask you if these guys were school teachers or some other profession would they just return to their jobs?

Based on the information that is out there, that some people are painting these guys as the victims is mind blowing.

Even based on the amount of alcohol they've admitted taking is a disgrace for a professional sportsperson in this day and age, even a rugby player.

The likes of Danny Cipriani and Gavin Henson have had contacts ripped up for much less, even ignoring the suggestions of criminality.

Pete ive been in enough locker rooms to know exactly what goes on and i understand totally that the messages they sent were not meant for public consumption. In that sense i agree they are unfortunate but once those messages are out there (due to quite literally not knowing who they were getting in bed with) then they are for public consumption and are fit to be judged therein.

I've already stated that my own thoughts are they shouldn't be back but not because of some whatsapp messages or the fact that they 'might' be guilty or anything like that. My own contention is that if we are talking about creating a new culture then i think it needs a clean broom taken to the place and i can think of certainly one of those lads that has had more than a few chances. My point i suppose is more that if they are not brought back, there will be valid reasons for that course and its not fair to tar everyone who believes they shouldn't be as some sort of bible bashing do gooder looking to implement their morals on the world.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Do you think most young lads around the country aren't boasting about their sexual conquests?
Do you think that in such boasts the lads are describing their conquests as beautiful, dreamy young ladies?

I think it may be extremely common in teenagers and students but I would suggest to you that it is not typical of 24-26 year old's to be boasting about their conquests on whassap.

I ask you if these guys were school teachers or some other profession would they just return to their jobs?

Based on the information that is out there, that some people are painting these guys as the victims is mind blowing.

rodders I work with people in that age group and seen some of their whatsapp activity, that's pretty mild. I've seen worse from people older

There are plenty of people who act poorly or are accused of something and found not guilty yet still have their job

Also, if they have been falsely accused as their defence worked to allude to then why wouldn't they be victims? Victimhood isn't defined by the person but the act, it's no different than if they are guilty and the young woman being not being a victim because of where she went, what she wore or if she was drunk

I have to agree with Pete. Locker room talk as Trump calls it is a reality. It is mostly bravado amongst giddy guys.

It is hard to tell how guilty or innocent they are as I reckon their are gaps on both sides stories.

I assume the only reason the messages are in the public domain is because they are evidence in the trial. If they weren't they would be protected by data protection regulation.

That said when messages like that get leaked data protection laws don't really help because once you try to evoke your rights you end up drawing more attention to the messages a phenomenon called the Streisand effect.

Collapse2005 wrote:I have to agree with Pete. Locker room talk as Trump calls it is a reality. It is mostly bravado amongst giddy guys.

It is hard to tell how guilty or innocent they are as I reckon their are gaps on both sides stories.

A perfect example of how age does not equal maturity and as all sides seem to point to, no matter what actually happened that night the claims they made in the messages fall well short of the reality of what took place which I think highlights their immaturity perfectly

Going back to the incompetence at Ulster Rugby, who thinks it's a good idea to have a rugby match at 3pm on a Thursday when kids are in school and people are in work? Would it not be more beneficial for fans, players and Ulster Rugby as a whole to have these games at times when people can actually attend instead of in front of one man and his dog?

I suppose guys need a run out though Marty and logistics for Munster could play a part. Totally agree with your points but i would assume (if not hope lol) that there are reasons for it

marty2086 wrote:Going back to the incompetence at Ulster Rugby, who thinks it's a good idea to have a rugby match at 3pm on a Thursday when kids are in school and people are in work? Would it not be more beneficial for fans, players and Ulster Rugby as a whole to have these games at times when people can actually attend instead of in front of one man and his dog?

Oh I don't know. Is you racist against dogs, Marty? They gotta have something to whine at too now and again.

Standulstermen wrote:I suppose guys need a run out though Marty and logistics for Munster could play a part. Totally agree with your points but i would assume (if not hope lol) that there are reasons for it

The time for the game was changed but surely not hard to find a time that will help with spectators, one of the B&I Cup games was played at Shaws Bridge at 5pm on a Friday. It's not an area that's great for traffic flow at that time of day, so not making things easy for fans to attend. Games were also played at the same time as the senior side was playing a European game, just shows a lack of joined up thinking and damaging to the organisation in terms of developing young players who are playing in competitions and games that many in the organisation don't even seem to have an after thought about and it's a potential revenue stream for the club too.

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Do you think most young lads around the country aren't boasting about their sexual conquests?
Do you think that in such boasts the lads are describing their conquests as beautiful, dreamy young ladies?

I think it may be extremely common in teenagers and students but I would suggest to you that it is not typical of 24-26 year old's to be boasting about their conquests on whassap.

I ask you if these guys were school teachers or some other profession would they just return to their jobs?

Based on the information that is out there, that some people are painting these guys as the victims is mind blowing.  

rodders I work with people in that age group and seen some of their whatsapp activity, that's pretty mild. I've seen worse from people older

There are plenty of people who act poorly or are accused of something and found not guilty yet still have their job

Also, if they have been falsely accused as their defence worked to allude to then why wouldn't they be victims? Victimhood isn't defined by the person but the act, it's no different than if they are guilty and the young woman being not being a victim because of where she went, what she wore or if she was drunk

I too work with people in that age group and have seen the how the boasts and bravado make them out to be something that's in complete contract to who they really are. The most shy and retiring mummy's boy can boast and brag of sexual conquests but it doesn't mean it's an accurate depiction of what happened (or didn't in a lot of cases). What they tell their mates has to be filled with embellishments or they simply won't make good enough reading for them. In much the same way the whatsapp messages being read out at the trial aren't likely to be an accurate barometer of character.

I see the younger Curtis is named in the a squad. A very promising sh by all accounts

I think you mean FH not SC

Nope geoff, Angus' younger brother is in the squad, Graham, another promising player who plays 9

Also Cairns is playing but on the wing and Shanhan is the starting 9

Cheers and thanks for the info.
Not seen him play
Cairns and Shanahan fit the dead wood description that Bryn alluded to in the meetings - at least in my opinion
Going through that team + Replacements there are 9 I would attribute that description to

Same guys in the U20s except keane. Hume comes in on the wing and Keane drops out completely. O'Toole benching again which is unlucky imo. Has deserved more than 1 start. 3 of the back five in the pack are ulster though

Is Keane now in the academy? He wasn't at the start of the 6Ns but seems to be listed as an Ulster player now

Keane isn't in the Academy - probably a group called the sub Academy

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I have to agree with Pete. Locker room talk as Trump calls it is a reality. It is mostly bravado amongst giddy guys.

It is hard to tell how guilty or innocent they are as I reckon their are gaps on both sides stories.

A perfect example of how age does not equal maturity and as all sides seem to point to, no matter what actually happened that night the claims they made in the messages fall well short of the reality of what took place which I think highlights their immaturity perfectly

A bit of bravado amongst your mates that isnt meant for public consumption is generally harmless. Admittedly I havent read the messages. Dont really want to either.

In an age when you have MPs calling for wolf-whistling and shouting at ladies on street to be classed as hate crimes, I don't see how you can say calling women 'sluts' and suggesting they are prostitutes is just typical acceptable private behaviour.

But in fairness neither those comments were made by Jackson or Olding. From memory, and I'm happy to go check, Jackson and Olding only messaged to lie/exagerate/misuse the word spit roast. Which whilst not wholesome to some, is not actually degrading the other person involved.

They made light of it, didn't by any stretch of the imagination sound like they had any feelings about it, and yea sounded boastful.
But I'm sure the other men (lets stop calling them boys) in the whatsapp group would have been taking it all with a large pinch of salt, that's just what these groups among guys are like.

I would still much prefer if folk didn't drink this much or have such casual sex with strangers, but that's just me.
I study the messages and it's graphic, boastful and uncaring, yes, but not sure Jackson or Olding made any derogatory comments about the female gender. And any distaste that comes from their remarks is filtered through the question mark of it being raped. The other possibility (yes only a possibility) is that the girl was seemingly just as Ok with what occured as they were.

So yea, in the case of a not guilty verdict, folks probably need to pick apart that text message evidence and decide for themselves how bad these men are based on what THEY actually said, not the others in their whatsapp group.

Redman wrote:Oh and for the record.  For me nothing has changed.  

I said at the start the trial, regardless of guilt or innocence, I didn't want them back.  I haven't changed my assessment.  

If they do return you can count me out..  

What an absolute load of nonsense. I’ll gladly count you out.

If the boys are found not guilty then they have every right to rejoin the team. I expect that they are innocent and I hope they are welcomed back by the club. I know from speaking with someone very close to the team that the other players are sympathetic to them and would be happy to see them return. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

clivemcl wrote:In an age when you have MPs calling for wolf-whistling and shouting at ladies on street to be classed as hate crimes,

Really I find that hard to believe - sexist yes but hate crimes !!

Trouble is some will leave because they stay and some will leave because they go - Ulster cant win.
Bryn made it clear he is sick and tired of the whole affair and just wants it over with so we can move on.
As he stated this has been incredibly disruptive to the team this year and the sooner we put it behind us the better.
I'm a 100% behind him on this

marty2086 wrote:Nope geoff, Angus' younger brother is in the squad, Graham, another promising player who plays 9

Also Cairns is playing but on the wing and Shanhan is the starting 9

Just seen the team, including replacements, I reckon there are 9 players who meet the deadwood description in that set up
By contrast some very exciting prospects

Couple of bits of gossips from the other site

Peel away suggested by KOTH. He is informed but at the same time he doesn't rate Peel so could be wishful thinking
The other cryptic suggestion is McAllister coming back.
This would make sense, only started 4 games this year.
Fits with our publically stated requirement to sign a LH, Lock and backrower and one, probably, has to be Irish.
There may be some mileage in this, signed a contract in 2016 which I suspect was for 2 years

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Nope geoff, Angus' younger brother is in the squad, Graham, another promising player who plays 9

Also Cairns is playing but on the wing and Shanhan is the starting 9

Just seen the team, including replacements, I reckon there are 9 players who meet the deadwood description in that set up
By contrast some very exciting prospects

I take it you mean Kane is among the deadwood, given he's only 23 would it not be premature saying that? Furlong was only really making strides at 23

For me his, like too many of our props, his scrummaging has went backwards but he's not awful at scrum time and is still fairly solid but he is prone to injury

geoff999rugby wrote:Couple of bits of gossips from the other site

Peel away suggested by KOTH. He is informed but at the same time he doesn't rate Peel so could be wishful thinking
The other cryptic suggestion is McAllister coming back.
This would make sense, only started 4 games this year.
Fits with our publically stated requirement to sign a LH, Lock and backrower and one, probably, has to be Irish.
There may be some mileage in this, signed a contract in 2016 which I suspect was for 2 years

Has he not spent a good bit of the last 18 months injured? He went well last season until he got injured

McAllister has been playing since late October.
Basically missed the first couple of months.
Been available most of the time just not selected

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Nope geoff, Angus' younger brother is in the squad, Graham, another promising player who plays 9

Also Cairns is playing but on the wing and Shanhan is the starting 9

Just seen the team, including replacements, I reckon there are 9 players who meet the deadwood description in that set up
By contrast some very exciting prospects

I take it you mean Kane is among the deadwood, given he's only 23 would it not be premature saying that? Furlong was only really making strides at 23

For me his, like too many of our props, his scrummaging has went backwards but he's not awful at scrum time and is still fairly solid but he is prone to injury

Definitely not including Kane

Browne, Ross, Shanahan, Owens, Patterson, Cairns, Busby, Montgomery, Herron
Herron definitely away and I understand Montgomery will not be coming back.
Those backs (Shanahan, Owens, Patterson, Cairns, Busby) are make weights to boost the numbers due to the lack of numerical cover - there is better behind them and they fit the description Cunningham stated.

On the Curtis brothers both were well regarded at Hilton college in SA and both have played for the sharks u18s.
Angus performance for the Ireland u20 have been getting very good reviews, but that's been at 12 and he sees himself as a ten, I hope he's not going to be shuffled between the two and end up average at both rather than very good at one

I see a video of the meetings with Bryn and Fiona have been issued.

Surprise surprise heavily edited and what has been dropped - you guessed it the heavy criticism of Logan.
It really is unacceptable the way the reality is twisted by the marketing and commercial area.
I understand not wanting to wash your dirty linen in public but equally burying your head in the sand and pretending
something didn't happen is unacceptable.
It is like reading Pravada sometimes - it is falsification to the point of lying

geoff999rugby wrote:I see a video of the meetings with Bryn and Fiona have been issued.

Surprise surprise heavily edited and what has been dropped - you guessed it the heavy criticism of Logan.
It really is unacceptable the way the reality is twisted by the marketing and commercial area.
I understand not wanting to wash your dirty linen in public but equally burying your head in the sand and pretending
something didn't happen is unacceptable.
It is like reading Pravada sometimes - it is falsification to the point of lying

Has that been sent to ST holders?

It was always going to be edited and you can bet Logan wasn't going to allow it out with the criticism in, though it would be worth keeping in to create more context for his propaganda piece

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I see a video of the meetings with Bryn and Fiona have been issued.

Surprise surprise heavily edited and what has been dropped - you guessed it the heavy criticism of Logan.
It really is unacceptable the way the reality is twisted by the marketing and commercial area.
I understand not wanting to wash your dirty linen in public but equally burying your head in the sand and pretending
something didn't happen is unacceptable.
It is like reading Pravada sometimes - it is falsification to the point of lying

Has that been sent to ST holders?

It was always going to be edited and you can bet Logan wasn't going to allow it out with the criticism in, though it would be worth keeping in to create more context for his propaganda piece

Was sent to ST holders

What would be totally inexcusable is if the committees and the IRFU do not see the unedited version.

UlsterinKildare wrote:

Redman wrote:Oh and for the record.  For me nothing has changed.  

I said at the start the trial, regardless of guilt or innocence, I didn't want them back.  I haven't changed my assessment.  

If they do return you can count me out..  

What an absolute load of nonsense. I’ll gladly count you out.

If the boys are found not guilty then they have every right to rejoin the team. I expect that they are innocent and I hope they are welcomed back by the club. I know from speaking with someone very close to the team that the other players are sympathetic to them and would be happy to see them return. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

Lote Tuqiri was out the door from Leinster pretty quick when his antics came to light (he had an affair with a well known Dublin woman - some reality tv show while his wife and kids were back in Australia.

Its also interesting to note that the Australian Rugby Union sacked him for having a 20 year old girl in his room while on international duty.

Sin é wrote:

UlsterinKildare wrote:

Redman wrote:Oh and for the record.  For me nothing has changed.  

I said at the start the trial, regardless of guilt or innocence, I didn't want them back.  I haven't changed my assessment.  

If they do return you can count me out..  

What an absolute load of nonsense. I’ll gladly count you out.

If the boys are found not guilty then they have every right to rejoin the team. I expect that they are innocent and I hope they are welcomed back by the club. I know from speaking with someone very close to the team that the other players are sympathetic to them and would be happy to see them return. I see no problem with that whatsoever.

Lote Tuqiri was out the door from Leinster pretty quick when his antics came to light (he had an affair with a well known Dublin woman - some reality tv show while his wife and kids were back in Australia.

Its also interesting to note that the Australian Rugby Union sacked  him for having a 20 year old girl in his room while on international duty.

Lote had a long history of doing stuff like that so it was surprising Leinster took him on board in the first place. He didn't just get the chop by the ARU for having a 20 years in his room. There is more to the story than that.

HALF TIME : Ulster A 14 Munster A 7 | Two converted tries scored by Jack Owens and Marcus Rea converted by Peter Nelson.

disappointing Geoff but not unsurprising. On Kane, whilst i wouldn't consign him to the deadwood pile i would find it hard to see where he fits in the pecking order

I'd have Moore and Herbst ahead of him and any and all game time possible should be going to O'Toole. I think Kane has been a bit unfortunate in truth with injury which may scupper him. I'd still have him about though. No reason he cant be a late developer and prove me wrong

You need 4 props on both sides

For me the TH is Moore, Herbst, Kane and O'Toole
Two youngsters with the two older players

Ah You and Simpson are the dead wood.

LH
New first choice, McCall, Warwick, O'Hagan

VdeMerwe is dead wood

Curtis looks good so far tonight, looks dangerous every time he is on the ball

Rewatched the U20s there specifically the last 30 which was hard watching in truth. One thing I will say (and he was far from perfect) is that Curtis has plenty of scrap and fight in him. Cunningham spoke about having that competitive edge in the young guys. He has it. Also O’Tooles weakness is his scrummaging allegedly but he held up when on. I think he has been criminally underused this 6N. Stewart doesn’t look like a first choice 9 mind you.

Where is Rhys O'Donnell? I heard he has more potential than Stewart but Cunningham doesnt like him

He is in the sub Academy.
If he is going to make it he needs to be in the Academy next year
Campbell and Anderson would have as much say as Cunningham as to who is in the Academy.

I thought it was Campbell that had an issue with him not Cunningham

Apologies I meant Campbell not Cunningham. If his own play is anything to go by he would prefer to select a slow and steady SH though.

I dont know enough about the O'Donnell lad. Watched him in the schools cup and he was obviously the most talented player. I could argue he played like he knew it and was a bit selfish but jesus he was just a kid then (and still is). You should hopefully be able to drill that out of him without destroying confidence. Most 9's are arrogant wee beggars anyway.

I heard the two lads have contracts lined up in France. Probably for the best.

Collapse2005 wrote:I heard the two lads have contracts lined up in France. Probably for the best.

If rumours are to believed they are talking to half the teams on the planet.
Lot of noise but no substance.
I believe the decision has been made and it has been made by the IRFU not Ulster.
As to the players themselves they will talk to nobody until the trial is over, got something else on their minds.

Agreed

toml wrote:Apologies I meant Campbell not Cunningham. If his own play is anything to go by he would prefer to select a slow and steady SH though.

It is indeed Campbell.
As I say he will be in the Academy next year or he will be history.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I heard the two lads have contracts lined up in France. Probably for the best.

If rumours are to believed they are talking to half the teams on the planet.
Lot of noise but no substance.
I believe the decision has been made and it has been made by the IRFU not Ulster.
As to the players themselves they will talk to nobody until the trial is over, got something else on their minds.

Think Jacksons barrister summed the whole situation up well with his closing argument, lives have been blighted by a botched police investigation that should not have been allowed to get to trial