Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

If you've posted a Scarets squad I can't see it Marty. Our IT dept blocks so many things.
So for all those with over zealous IT departments:

Scarlets Squad:

15 Tom Williams, 14 Corey Baldwin, 13 Paul Asquith, 12 Steff Hughes , 11 Ioan Nicholas, 10 Dan Jones, 9 Jonathan Evans, 1 Dylan Evans, 2 Ryan Elias, 3 Werner Kruger, 4 Steven Cummins, 5 David Bulbring, 6Tadhg Beirne, 7 James Davies, 8 Josh Macleod
Replacements; 16 Emyr Phillips, 17 Phil Price, 18 Simon Gardiner, 19 Lewis Rawlins, 20 Will Boyde, 21 Declan Smith, 22 Ioan Hughes, 23 Ryan Conbeer

The words Tadhg and Beirne fill me with nothing but fear.

God! Even IT Departments are Anti-Welsh rugby! Lord will be furious.

Pete330v2 wrote:

The words Tadhg and Beirne fill me with nothing but fear.

Joe should have dragged him into International camp even to help out the Provinces a bit. No joined up thinking at IRFU again.

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

The words Tadhg and Beirne fill me with nothing but fear.

Joe should have dragged him into International camp even to help out the Provinces a bit.  No joined up thinking at IRFU again.

He'd have been ripped apart by irate Munster fans for not picking Zebo then

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

The words Tadhg and Beirne fill me with nothing but fear.

Joe should have dragged him into International camp even to help out the Provinces a bit.  No joined up thinking at IRFU again.

He'd have been ripped apart by irate Munster fans for not picking Zebo then

Ha! Ha! I'm playing tennis between the Ulster thread and the Ireland v Wales one. I've just alluded to that, Marty. I joked here but was serious over on the other thread. I think Joe should bury the hatchet, show that he's better than the man who openly criticised his coaching and call back Zebo into the squad for the final two games...and take Beirne in too.

Season Ticket Holder Survey Results are out

and they seem like a load of balls

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

The words Tadhg and Beirne fill me with nothing but fear.

Joe should have dragged him into International camp even to help out the Provinces a bit.  No joined up thinking at IRFU again.

He'd have been ripped apart by irate Munster fans for not picking Zebo then

Ha! Ha!  I'm playing tennis between the Ulster thread and the Ireland v Wales one.  I've just alluded to that, Marty.  I joked here but was serious over on the other thread.  I think Joe should bury the hatchet, show that he's better than the man who openly criticised his coaching and call back Zebo into the squad for the final two games...and take Beirne in too.

The IRFU want to be seen to be a master who's not for moving on the draconian rules it sets, a lord who's as unyielding as granite cliff face. The thing is, when someone called Nacewa comes along they lose the front and go all soft and gooey so perhaps they should open up the pliability to Beirnes and Zebos too.

I'm not in favour of them easing off on the draconian rules in general - but just this time given the circumstances.  
Joe should be pragmatic and be a clinical coach.  He should invite in Beirne who is coming home anyway, and he should take back the rascal Zebo for the duration of this tournament.  I think it would be a nice gesture and kind of end their relationship (Schmidt's and Zebo's) in a nice way - a peace pipe if you will to what was a very strained relationship the whole way through.
I think Joe and Simon would feel better for it.  A nod of recognition, a handshake.... let's see if we can get a Slam.

Is Beirne v POM the difference in winning the 6N? Hard to say.
Yet if every province lost two or three players chasing the money outside Ireland, and the IRFU lost control of them what would be the impact on future championships? Zebo has effectively ruled himself out of the RWC so why would Joe waste these opportunities to find his replacements?

On a Ulster note, I'm reading today that Curtis had a very good game last night for the U20s.

That's why you don't let a welsh official officiate a welsh team

Oh FFS another witless ref robbing a perfectly good try by Ulster despite strong hints from the TMO that he was wrong.

TMO said it was wrong. He's been fine this ref otherwise, which makes the decision all the more inexplicable.

I don't do this reactionary "oh he's finished" or "his legs have gone" stuff. Players age and have good games and bad games but .....

Henry will be very disappointed with that missed tackle in the Scarlets 10m.

Another awful decision there. Herring was straight through the middle.

God this is a Scarlets youth team as well.

Is it too early yet for #gibbesout followed swiftly by excuses for the great Gibbes some hoped was our head coach but wasn’t really and now finally is? And then, like with the last interim coach period, some will say ‘don’t worry our next head coach will be class, just be patient’.
Then after a poor 19/20 season folks will say ‘it’s unfair to judge <insert new head coach>, a head coach deserves to choose his own coaching team’... and so on and so on.

I think you have to judge each coach on their merits. Gibbes has a serious resume and is working with a bunch of kids and journeymen who were never good enough. We have seen Henry, Payne, Bowe, Trimble all retire (if not in word then in performance or absence) in the space of 6 months and he has inherited the worst batch of NIQs ever seen in a province in terms of influence.

we need a serious overhaul of the squad and the management and it needs to be done yesterday. I've said it before but contracts need to be ripped up and a RAFT of signings made and my worry is the IRFU seem fairly hands off when you consider how much leeway was given munster when they were struggling (understandably so i might add). Crowds may half next season if this isnt addressed and we dont see some serious additions to augment Jordi and Moore.

The IRFU are in a difficult position with Ulster.  They try to get more 'hands on' and it's interference again.  They stay hands off and it's that they don't care.

Ulster rugby probably needs a 'start at the beginning' approach, yes.  
Now, there are overly dramatic ways of doing that that might necessitate Ulster sinking further still to give a new beginning time to truly knit.... or you might do it piecemeal, trying to make only incremental changes here and there so as not to take the ship down completely.
But I think IRFU central eagles should be involved now to get that obvious management mess sorted for a start.  People that think they should hang around further probably should simply get the sack.  
Good or bad - it makes no difference, the management set-up has obviously too much baggage now and I'd say it needs to be cleared.  
Indeed, involved people's opinions should be sought - top players, Gibbes.  They should be asked about their views on what is wrong with the background set up.  It just seems to me that people in high places at Ulster rugby are writing their own productivity reports and stamping their own approval stamps onto them.  
There needs to be a serious outside assessor brought in to say what management systems and styles aren't working - and more sackings. Hell even bring McLaughlin back in in some capacity, a man who should never have been unceremoniously dropped in the first place. Humphreys was a power seeker - nothing more. He got his power and then hightailed it with his increased reputation. For me, that was a major f**k up time for Ulster and Humphreys should never have been allowed assert the power he so visibly tried to wield as he sat smugly in the stands always one seat above his Head coach; the King and his vassal.

Good post fly but I think the time for the irfu to be worried about interference has come and gone. I’m not sure I’d listen to the players. Possibly best but I think he may be too close to some to be honest, even with himself.

The young guys need brought through but they need brought through from a position of strength. I was annoyed with the U20s that O’Toole got 8 minutes when Aungier was knackered and I think the decision not to rotate our forwards sooner cost us the match. But in that 8 minutes he made 3 tackles, carried well, locked out a scrum and hit a soft shoulder and gave the offload to set up the last score. That’s more positives than Rodney has managed in a season. I’m hoping we are waiting for Rory to get back to bring him in just.

My point is put O’Toole and say Agnew for arguments sake in a pack with Dooley(potentially), Best, Henderson, Coetzee, Murphy etc and he could shine. We haven’t been able to integrate from a position of strength though. Next season we need to be able to do that otherwise it may be a few years of challenge cup Rugby. As things stand it’s looking like 2 Irish teams in the Heineken. That’s disastrous and I’d ask what the irfu are waiting for

Scarlets B team totally deserved their win. The ref Davies had a shocker but Ulster were terrible. The coaches have to be questioned as the Scarlets came out fired up after the break, while Ulster came out in a daze. However it is the lack of quality in the team that is the real problem. The Welsh debutants all showed more pace than Ulster have in their entire squad, and it wasn't just Beirne who outmuscled his counterpart. Ulster will be lucky to stay ahead of Benetton at this rate.

From a BBC comments page:

19. Posted by Madame Marie on
38 minutes ago
"What a talent this guy is, and thank goodness he is firmly in the grasp of Joe Schmidt, and not being ruined, like so many before him, by the Church that masquerades as Ulster Rugby."

SecretFly wrote:....Hell even bring McLaughlin back in in some capacity, a man who should never have been unceremoniously dropped in the first place.  Humphreys was a power seeker - nothing more.  He got his power and then hightailed it with his increased reputation.  For me, that was a major f**k up time for Ulster and Humphreys should never have been allowed assert the power he so visibly tried to wield as he sat smugly in the stands always one seat above his Head coach; the King and his vassal.

Couldn't agree more about this. Humphreys was allowed to manoeuvre himself in this manor. Taking all the praise when things were right and always having someone to take the fall when they weren't. He is a person I wouldn't have near Ulster again

Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

The alternative view is that it meant the 'foundations' that he allegedly put in place weren't all that robust. Maybe he left because he realised that the wheels weren't so secure and that it was best to cash in on his reputation before it slipped.

The Great Aukster wrote:Scarlets B team totally deserved their win. The ref Davies had a shocker but Ulster were terrible. The coaches have to be questioned as the Scarlets came out fired up after the break, while Ulster came out in a daze. However it is the lack of quality in the team that is the real problem. The Welsh debutants all showed more pace than Ulster have in their entire squad, and it wasn't just Beirne who outmuscled his counterpart. Ulster will be lucky to stay ahead of Benetton at this rate.

On that note of Beirne's try versus Timoney.
Was that not a tackle, and was the ball not ripped after Timoney was on the ground? They even went to TMO and he saw nothing wrong either.

If that was open field and the ball was ripped at that point I'm sure it would have been penalised.

At another point in the game McCloskey was penalised near our own touch line for not releasing because a Scarlets player's knee had very briefly touched the ground.

People saying we were poor, there were stages we looked good and really took it to Scarlets but after 45 mins or so we dropped off. For all the criticism of Deysel, you can count on him to get you at least one turnover a game and to compete at the breakdown which we really aren't doing enough of.

The attacking game plan really is poor, the kicking from McPhillips hurt us too many times and there were numerous occasions when he should have run it back at Scarlets but instead just kicked it back to them and it ended up costing us territory.

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

The alternative view is that it meant the 'foundations' that he allegedly put in place weren't all that robust.  Maybe he left because he realised that the wheels weren't so secure and that it was best to cash in on his reputation before it slipped.  

... or it could have had something to do with a seven figure contract.
Foundations or not, Ulster were consistently competitive under the Doc.

Gloucester haven't exactly set the world alight under him. Ultimately theres plenty of blame to go round. As things stand the only people in position to be culpable are Logan, Cunningham and i suppose Malone

marty2086 wrote:People saying we were poor, there were stages we looked good and really took it to Scarlets but after 45 mins or so we dropped off. For all the criticism of Deysel, you can count on him to get you at least one turnover a game and to compete at the breakdown which we really aren't doing enough of.

The attacking game plan really is poor, the kicking from McPhillips hurt us too many times and there were numerous occasions when he should have run it back at Scarlets but instead just kicked it back to them and it ended up costing us territory.

Deysel had one of his better outings and if he could deliver that every week, he wouldn't have such a crap reputation.
McPhillips is showing how green he is, being dropped in at the deep end with zero experience. He was trying passes that were too high risk against a defence that were often offside. He has the skills and it is bad planning that he is having to  get his experience under so much pressure.

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

The alternative view is that it meant the 'foundations' that he allegedly put in place weren't all that robust.  Maybe he left because he realised that the wheels weren't so secure and that it was best to cash in on his reputation before it slipped.  

... or it could have had something to do with a seven figure contract.
Foundations or not, Ulster were consistently competitive under the Doc.

Good timing helps, there was a good batch of young homegrown players and coupled with good NIQ players it all came together but plenty on here pointed out how short we were in terms of depth but he opted for the likes of McComish to plug gaps and never addressed the broken pathway, the lack of backrows was repeatedly addressed on here but never by Ulster under Humphreys.

These issues were at the hear to f why we were competitive but not successful

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:People saying we were poor, there were stages we looked good and really took it to Scarlets but after 45 mins or so we dropped off. For all the criticism of Deysel, you can count on him to get you at least one turnover a game and to compete at the breakdown which we really aren't doing enough of.

The attacking game plan really is poor, the kicking from McPhillips hurt us too many times and there were numerous occasions when he should have run it back at Scarlets but instead just kicked it back to them and it ended up costing us territory.

Deysel had one of his better outings and if he could deliver that every week, he wouldn't have such a crap reputation.
McPhillips is showing how green he is, being dropped in at the deep end with zero experience. He was trying passes that were too high risk against a defence that were often offside. He has the skills and it is bad planning that he is having to  get his experience under so much pressure.

When Scarlets slowed the ball down and were organised Ulster were clueless, this is why McPhillips was doing the things he was doing but the kicking seemed to be a tactic and one that didn't work

Deysel didn't do much different from past performances, not much front foot ball but he does compete and make the opposition commit players but he's on his own too often, Rea and Timoney need to be in there too competing

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

The alternative view is that it meant the 'foundations' that he allegedly put in place weren't all that robust.  Maybe he left because he realised that the wheels weren't so secure and that it was best to cash in on his reputation before it slipped.  

... or it could have had something to do with a seven figure contract.
Foundations or not, Ulster were consistently competitive under the Doc.

He saw his stock was a high as it would be, probably predicted his long term planning wasn't good enough and abandoned ship.

Another demoralizing defeat which suggests Ulster haven't hit rock bottom yet.

After a bright start with Tommy and Trimble rolling back the years a bit in the first half unfortunately normal service was resumed.

Despite the terrible TMO decision to rule out the second try I don't think there can be too many complaints that Scarlet's deserved to win against a far more experienced Ulster side.

I don't think there are much signs that the players want to perform for Gibbes any more than they did for Kiss.

Farrell can't come soon enough because the way the players are slipping off tackles is woeful.

rodders wrote:
Farrell can't come soon enough because the way the players are slipping off tackles is woeful.

After some of Irelands defending at the weekend can we have someone else please

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:
Farrell can't come soon enough because the way the players are slipping off tackles is woeful.

After some of Irelands defending at the weekend can we have someone else please

Have to say...yeah. Farrell has had time enough now to fix that glaring hole in our defensive shape out wide when games quicken up and counter attacks come in from fast sides. He's had lots of time now to shore up that hole (that I admit he didn't create - it's a continuous Irish weakness at International level).
He'll have to show more now or I'm going to be saying he might not be the right man for us heading to a WC.
People will say it's players that are making mistakes and people will say Joe and Farrell are furious... but players obey orders. Someone is in charge of defensive plans. If you get angry once and the players repair their mistakes then so be it - the plan is operational. But we've had three games now, against various standard sides and each time we've left the gapping holes out wide.
Maybe it's a long term trick to catch the English out?

I think in fairness to Farrell, there has been a lot of disruption to personnel in the Ireland backline, which makes it hard to make the defense click.

It is a high risk approach he uses but one thing it doesn't lack is enthusiasm and appetite to dominate in contact, which is something this Ulster side could use.

What backline doesn't have disruption? Joe is meant to be picking players that have been in camp and picked up all the systems

marty2086 wrote:What backline doesn't have disruption? Joe is meant to be picking players that have been in camp and picked up all the systems

Still bitter about Chris Farrell getting selected Marty?

rodders wrote:

marty2086 wrote:What backline doesn't have disruption? Joe is meant to be picking players that have been in camp and picked up all the systems

Still bitter about Chris Farrell getting selected Marty?

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it just coincidence then that the wheels came off after Humphreys left?

More accurate to say Humphreys took the wheels off, realised his mistake and then left

Not saying this to rub it in (and why would I, we are bottom of the league), but Arno Botha has been outstanding since his arrival at Irish.

SirBurger wrote:Not saying this to rub it in (and why would I, we are bottom of the league), but Arno Botha has been outstanding since his arrival at Irish.

That'll be his knee going now in his next game

Looks like Cunningham is going nowhere at least. If thats the case i would be hoping for announcements about he is going to rectify the squad

SirBurger wrote:Not saying this to rub it in (and why would I, we are bottom of the league), but Arno Botha has been outstanding since his arrival at Irish.

He has been much better than Deysel and not so injury prone.
That was a good swap - NOT

marty2086 wrote:

SirBurger wrote:Not saying this to rub it in (and why would I, we are bottom of the league), but Arno Botha has been outstanding since his arrival at Irish.

That'll be his knee going now in his next game

You're right - I probably shouldn't jinx it . Just glad we have a ball-carrier to help Treviranus for the first time in ages.

geoff999rugby wrote:

SirBurger wrote:Not saying this to rub it in (and why would I, we are bottom of the league), but Arno Botha has been outstanding since his arrival at Irish.

He has been much better than Deysel and not so injury prone.
That was a good swap - NOT

He's played 4 games for Irish

Yep and ignoring a game 2 days they have only had 3 Premiership games
Bottom line is since he has been there he has been fitter and better than Deysel.

From what I have seen he is a different class Deysel
We got the runt of the two

neilthom7 wrote:That's why you don't let a welsh official officiate a welsh team

Why's that?