Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by Kingshu Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

by Maine man Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:56 pm

So who makes the decision to release or retain the younger players?

by geoff999rugby Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:29 pm

I would not assume it is a club decision.
May well be a case of Edinburgh made him offer, he looked around and said 'this place is a shambles' and so said 'Yes' to Cockers

by Redman Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:17 pm

On nothing but incidental information I’d say you’re probably right Geoff. Stand might be right in his assessment that HAgnew has more ability but Hall might be more ambitious. He has the 1 cap for Ulster which Agnew doesn’t. Could that be the kid and his agent (if he has one) pushing for a 1st team involvement or he’s off?

Tough one, determined personalities like that often push themselves to achievements beyond their talent merits. Or maybe Ulster is a bunch of muppets. Time will tell.

by The Great Aukster Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:25 pm

There's no one left but Baldrick to hold accountable now for all player movements in and out. Let's see if he has got it right?

by geoff999rugby Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:45 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:There's no one left but Baldrick to hold accountable now for all player movements in and out. Let's see if he has got it right?

Wrong, the IRFU are supplying significant input, and as I say more likely the player chose to leave a shambolic setup

by marty2086 Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:12 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:There's no one left but Baldrick to hold accountable now for all player movements in and out. Let's see if he has got it right?

Wrong, the IRFU are supplying significant input, and as I say more likely the player chose to leave a shambolic setup

One thing that's struck me, Cunningham has stated young players would be getting picked ahead of others. Without a coach in place how can anyone say that's the way it will be?

It can't help guys like Hall making decisions about their future when they don't know what a new coach will think of them, if you have a seasoned coach like Cockers saying he rates you while you have Bryn saying young players will get picked but no idea what someone thinks of said young players, it's not a hard decision to make

by **rodders** Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:09 am

Well I have to say that was one of the worst Ulster performances in years, maybe a decade.

So much for hoping the GS and good news of Henderson and Best signing giving the team a lift. Best may just stay in Dubai than return to this dross.

Cooney and Timoney tried a bit but beyond that I can't think of a single positive. Stockdale should have been rested.

How ironic that Nick Williams was the best player on the pitch.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:21 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:There's no one left but Baldrick to hold accountable now for all player movements in and out. Let's see if he has got it right?

Wrong, the IRFU are supplying significant input, and as I say more likely the player chose to leave a shambolic setup

One thing that's struck me, Cunningham has stated young players would be getting picked ahead of others. Without a coach in place how can anyone say that's the way it will be?

It can't help guys like Hall making decisions about their future when they don't know what a new coach will think of them, if you have a seasoned coach like Cockers saying he rates you while you have Bryn saying young players will get picked but no idea what someone thinks of said young players, it's not a hard decision to make

In fairness he said that bringing through the young players is a priority, not that they will necessarily be getting picked, albeit if operation deadwood is as extensive as it should be there wont be the guys to pick in front of him. I read a quote from Gibbes after the game saying theres about 20 guys who helped prep the team for the game who would be sitting at home scratching their heads about that performance so perhaps thats a sign he is going to change it up now.

by EWT Spoons Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:14 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:KOTH says Aaron Hall off to Edinburgh

Hi folks,

On the Aaron Hall to Edinburgh rumours. I don’t know that much about the lad, so was hoping someone could help me out.

Do you know if he’s qualified to play for Scotland?
Is he any good?

The only reason I ask, is our backrow is an area of strength for Edinburgh currently with a fair few young lads coming through, so unless he is considerably better or SQ and the SRU want to get him over to try and cap him, then I can’t see why Edinburgh would be making a move for him.

by Standulstermen Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:35 pm

A lot of that can be answered with the phrase 'no bloody idea' EWT. I agree it would be a bit of a surprise. Hall started the first of the Irish U20 6Nations matches but got injured. He played for Ulster once against Treviso i believe clocking up over 20 tackles (i think) but not threatening a turnover if memory serves.

by EWT Spoons Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:39 pm

Cheers.

I would be surprised if this rumour turned out to be any more than that. We're clearing the deck in the backrow, as we're over stocked (Hardie being let go) so to bring in a relatively untried young Irish lad would seem an odd choice.

by Don Alfonso Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:11 pm

When's Farrell starting?

by clivemcl Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:49 pm

So who has seen this? Gaining some traction on Facebook...

Ulster Rugby 2017-18 - Page 14 Untitl10

by Redman Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:29 pm

f*cks ............ sake ..............

by carpet baboon Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:17 pm

Does he have anything at all to do with Ulster "officially"? If he does and this is true he needs to be fecked off as soon as possible.
If he doesn't any invite to any club functions needs to be withdrawn

by marty2086 Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:19 pm

With the Danske Bank Ulster Schools' finals recently completed and the climax of the Ulster Carpets Youth competitions just around the corner, the IRFU Ulster Branch will engage external consultants to provide an independent and objective analysis of Age Grade structures and governance within the Province.

The consultation is considered a vital part of Ulster Rugby's newly developing strategic plan for a vibrant community game within the province, but also the longer-term success of the club at professional level.

To ensure we undertake a thorough consultation and seek the opinions of as many schools and clubs as possible, we have asked specialist independent consultants 'Inside Track' to facilitate the process during the months of March-May 2018.

Central to this will be analysis of the following:

· The health of the whole Age Grade rugby pathway - focusing on all Age Grade rugby between U12 and U18;
· Current and future internal and external challenges and opportunities facing schools and youth rugby in the male game;
· The disparity between the needs/strengths of different rugby-playing schools and the varying type of offer required to meet all those needs;
· The appropriateness of current fixture and competition models;
· The need to promote interaction between schools' rugby and club rugby, and also rugby in the non-traditional schools - taking into consideration entry and exit from schools rugby, and how schools play a vital part in assisting with transition;
· The provision for rugby in the club youth setting and the varying type of offering needed;
· The needs and requirements of all different stakeholders in a changing society - players, schools, clubs, parents etc.;
· Governance of the Age Grade game within the province in relation to setting and delivering strategy and aligning with IRFU Age Grade;
· The emergence of other forms of the game, e.g. 7's, X7s, Tag, Touch;
· The influence of clubs & schools on the professional game/Ulster Academy (and vice versa) and the structure of Age Grade representative teams.

There will be a good mix of opportunities for key stakeholders to have their say (Club convenors, Schools masters, Committee officials) - including face-to-face discussion, telephone interviews and group workshops.

Alongside this, we also seek input from the Province's rugby public in general. From parents, coaches and administrators who give up valuable time to support the game, we ask that you take the opportunity to provide feedback and inform the future direction of the age-grade game in Ulster.

Please see below an open survey link below:
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/URAgeGrade
Respondents must be 18 or over to engage. A separate process will be undertaken to canvass the opinions of young players in the game.

Please note Ulster Rugby will not have access to your responses, which only the consultants will see, and the identity of all respondents' feedback will remain confidential and anonymous.

The deadline for survey responses is Monday 16th April 2018.

Thank you for taking the time to contribute to the Age Grade consultation in Ulster.

by marty2086 Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:14 am

A new name in the coaching mix from Jonathan Bradley

While Edinburgh's Richard Cockerill, whose own rebuild in the Scottish capital has hastened the critical glare cast upon Ulster, would have been a perfect candidate had he been available this summer rather than last, it is no surprise to see the similarly no-nonsense Shaun Edwards discussed in relation to the post.

by Standulstermen Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:23 am

I would rate Edwards in terms of taking no Poopie but im not convinced he ticks boxes like bringing through youth and indeed he is a very specialised coach is he not. Not surprised about the above message regarding Wilson. Still two sides to everything i suppose

by Brendan Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:29 pm

What would your thoughts be on Malinder for a 2/3 year contract to bring in some grunt. He did well with Saints but stayed to long a lot like Cockerill.

He might not be the most dynamic but I am sure he would be better than Edwards

Lancaster though would be the best if you could get him to move

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:39 pm

clivemcl wrote:So who has seen this? Gaining some traction on Facebook...

Who has seen what??

I think Edwards could be a decent appointment, better than Mallinder.

by marty2086 Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Edwards was head coach at Wasps with a DoR above him, Mallinder was a DoR at Saints and running the show. If Ulster are willing to shape things around the man, then either could work. I just worry about Mallinder and who he would bring in, he went backwards at Saints by sticking by coaches who didn't adapt to what they had to work with or he didn't sign players who didn't fit the game plan. Either way it's not good.

Edwards has been out of a top job for a decade and wasn't trusted with the Welsh job during the Lions tour

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:10 pm

Mallinder didn't really achieve much at Saints, moans a lot and I think he is a poor fit for Ulster.

Personally I think Gatland has piggy backed a lot of Edwards both at Wasps and Wales and their relationship went a bit sour when Gats picked Farrell as defense coach for the Lions in 2013.

Edwards was defense coach in 09 for the Lions as well and his strength as a coach is fitness, work rate and defense, which are areas we are struggling in badly.

I get what you say he is unproven as a head coach but so was Schmidt when Leinster brought him in, given the choice I would rather see him over Mallinder.

by marty2086 Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:20 pm

rodders wrote:Mallinder didn't really achieve much at Saints, moans a lot and I think he is a poor fit for Ulster.

Not sure if that's sarcasm or some really high standards

Mallinder took Saints from the Championship in 2008, won the Challenge Cup in 2009, runners up in the Heineken Cup in 2011 and won the Aviva in 2014. They went off a cliff after the Aviva win though

rodders wrote:Personally I think Gatland has piggy backed a lot of Edwards both at Wasps and Wales and their relationship went a bit sour when Gats picked Farrell as defense coach for the Lions in 2013.

Edwards was defense coach in 09 for the Lions as well and his strength as a coach is fitness, work rate and defense, which are areas we are struggling in badly.

I get what you say he is unproven as a head coach but so was Schmidt when Leinster brought him in, given the choice I would rather see him over Mallinder.

Edwards has proven he can be a head coach but one of the problems with Wales over the last few years has been a lack of evolution. Has Edwards evolved as a coach as the game isn't the same as it was 10 years ago. So in a sense he is proven but still unproven

by Standulstermen Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:32 pm

all acquitted. over to you IRFU/UR

by LordDowlais Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:48 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43571066

by LordDowlais Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:49 pm

Let's get them back to playing rugby again, and let's hope they have all learned a valuable lesson from all this.

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:58 pm

The reaction and response will be interesting.

by **George Carlin** Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:05 pm

Standulstermen wrote:all acquitted. over to you IRFU/UR

Surely this is now no longer the business of the IRFU or the club?

by eirebilly Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:13 pm

Not sure what to make of the news to be honest. Never really had an opinion if they were guilty or innocent.

That said, being found innocent does not mean they are not guilty of a pretty poor thing.

by Standulstermen Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:16 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:all acquitted. over to you IRFU/UR
Surely this is now no longer the business of the IRFU or the club?

Of course it is. Both have contracts with them . What happens going forward will be interesting

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:21 pm

eirebilly wrote:Not sure what to make of the news to be honest. Never really had an opinion if they were guilty or innocent.

That said, being found innocent does not mean they are not guilty of a pretty poor thing.

Do you mean the other way round? They were always innocent unless and until a jury unanimously decided otherwise.

Being found not guilty does not mean they are innocent of a pretty poor thing.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:Mallinder didn't really achieve much at Saints, moans a lot and I think he is a poor fit for Ulster.

Not sure if that's sarcasm or some really high standards

Mallinder took Saints from the Championship in 2008, won the Challenge Cup in 2009, runners up in the Heineken Cup in 2011 and won the Aviva in 2014. They went off a cliff after the Aviva win though

rodders wrote:Personally I think Gatland has piggy backed a lot of Edwards both at Wasps and Wales and their relationship went a bit sour when Gats picked Farrell as defense coach for the Lions in 2013.

Edwards was defense coach in 09 for the Lions as well and his strength as a coach is fitness, work rate and defense, which are areas we are struggling in badly.

I get what you say he is unproven as a head coach but so was Schmidt when Leinster brought him in, given the choice I would rather see him over Mallinder.

Edwards has proven he can be a head coach but one of the problems with Wales over the last few years has been a lack of evolution. Has Edwards evolved as a coach as the game isn't the same as it was 10 years ago. So in a sense he is proven but still unproven

No not Sarcasm, probably not well worded. You are right Saints were good for a while, but had a very dominant pack for a long period as well as some dangerous backs. Could he do much with Ulsters current crop I'm not sure.

Fair point on Edwards, I have those doubts too but still has a winners mentality and would ruffle some feathers if nothing else.

Plus has a history of singing anti-Irish songs which would surely help him fit in ... Run

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:43 pm

IRFU and Ulster Rugby have issued a joint statement saying players will remain off-duty until they have reviewed the incident in full in line with contractual matters.

by **rodders** Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:all acquitted. over to you IRFU/UR
Surely this is now no longer the business of the IRFU or the club?

Of course it is. Both have contracts with them . What happens going forward will be interesting

I think this was always the most likely outcome - it really highlights the difficulties and complexities around this type of case but I don't think anyone comes out of this looking good at all.

Personally I wouldn't want to see them play again for Ulster again but if another club elsewhere is willing to take a punt then good luck to them.

It will be good to get closure on this as clearly has impacted Ulster on the field.

by **RDW** Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Well it's probably fair to say most people didn't expect that verdict given all the reporting on the case, but that reinforces why it is a good thing that we have trials with judges and juries as opposed to trial by media!

As has been said previously they have not been found guilty of the r-word, but that doesn't mean their behaviour is not contrary to what is expected of them by Ulster and Irish rugby.

It will be interesting to see how IRFU react - I think they will keep them on, and that may be the right decision. It might be worth standing them down until next season though. It is certainly a difficult one!

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:57 pm

I predicted it at the start RDW - the question to the jurors was if there was 'any reasonable doubt?' There will always be 'reasonable doubt' in a case like that.

by **RDW** Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:04 pm

Sadly, as expected in the current day and age you see the worst of humanity on social media on both sides of the story – you have people calling the woman all kind of horrific names and insults and saying she should be sued for false accusation, then you have other people saying that despite the court’s judgement they still class the players as guilty of their crimes.

From a rugby point of view the players will have this over them for the rest of their careers, so IRFU may conclude that it is not worth the constant spotlight that will be placed on them if they keep them on their books.

by Pete330v2 Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:06 pm

I'd have said most people would have expected that outcome, it was always up to the prosecution to prove the case beyond any doubt and to be honest, they were extremely poor at their attempt to do so.
I don't see how Ulster and Ireland's talent pool at 10 is good enough to go into a RWC without Jackson but maybe shooting on the foot is their thing. If that ends up being the case and we remove players because we don't agree with their lifestyles or morals then we'd end up down more than a few bodies. I think a lot of people should look at their own perfect past before passing judgement on a couple of guys who will have learned a hell of a lot about how to behave when you're in the public eye over the last year.

We will wait and see, something we're used to at Ulster

by **RDW** Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:11 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:I'd have said most people would have expected that outcome, it was always up to the prosecution to prove the case beyond any doubt and to be honest, they were extremely poor at their attempt to do so.
I don't see how Ulster and Ireland's talent pool at 10 is good enough to go into a RWC without Jackson but maybe shooting on the foot is their thing. If that ends up being the case and we remove players because we don't agree with their lifestyles or morals then we'd end up down more than a few bodies. I think a lot of people should look at their own perfect past before passing judgement on a couple of guys who will have learned a hell of a lot about how to behave when you're in the public eye over the last year.

We will wait and see, something we're used to at Ulster

I see what you're saying, but the average person isn't in the public eye employed by an entity who relies on community engagement and presenting a positive public image. There's no doubt that if a bunch of accountants were on trial for the same case it wouldn't have had nearly the same coverage, and chances are they would have just gone back to their jobs after a not guilty verdict. Given the status of these players that probably won't work out the same.

by marty2086 Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:15 pm

The IRFU and Ulster Rugby note the verdict handed down today at the Belfast Crown Court in relation to the case brought against Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding. We wish to acknowledge that this has undoubtedly been a difficult and extremely traumatic time for all involved.

To respect the judicial proceedings, the IRFU and Ulster Rugby postponed any internal review of the matter with the players, until the proceedings concluded.

IRFU and Ulster Rugby officials will review the matter, in line with existing procedures for all contracted players. A Review Committee, made up of senior representatives of the IRFU and Ulster Rugby, has been appointed and will conclude its review as soon as practicable. The players will continue to be relieved of all duties while the Review Committee is in process and determining its findings.

by Pot Hale Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:21 pm

The response on social media is withering in its assessment of and reaction to the verdict.

by Pete330v2 Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:I'd have said most people would have expected that outcome, it was always up to the prosecution to prove the case beyond any doubt and to be honest, they were extremely poor at their attempt to do so.
I don't see how Ulster and Ireland's talent pool at 10 is good enough to go into a RWC without Jackson but maybe shooting on the foot is their thing. If that ends up being the case and we remove players because we don't agree with their lifestyles or morals then we'd end up down more than a few bodies. I think a lot of people should look at their own perfect past before passing judgement on a couple of guys who will have learned a hell of a lot about how to behave when you're in the public eye over the last year.

We will wait and see, something we're used to at Ulster

I see what you're saying, but the average person isn't in the public eye employed by an entity who relies on community engagement and presenting a positive public image. There's no doubt that if a bunch of accountants were on trial for the same case it wouldn't have had nearly the same coverage, and chances are they would have just gone back to their jobs after a not guilty verdict. Given the status of these players that probably won't work out the same.

Yeah of course there is that but both the IRFU and Ulster have backed players up for worse behaviour in the past, worse having a drunken 3some and involving themselves in a bit of bravado filled locker room chat. I think these lads should be allowed the chance to put this all behind them and that includes the lifestyle. People are all for giving second chances (but only if it fits their strict moral policies).

by thebandwagonsociety Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:26 pm

How UR handle this could define them for the next decade. Bring the players back into the fold could damage the 'brand' and isolate a to-be-determined part of the supporter base. Kick them to the kirb (after the legal system found not guilty) that opens a dangerous avenue where the club has to react to social media storms rather than legal outcomes. Also, these two not-guilty-by-a-jury-of-their-peers players have friends in the current squad, how they are treated will have a bearing on how those players view the club come future contract talks. Some players were present at the courthouse during the trial, while some of them might not have many seasons left in them, others might think twice about committing to a club that could terminate their contract based on social media hearsay and rumour rather than the outcome of a thorough trial.

by Brendan Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:13 pm

I was just surprised by how quick it was. Expected it to be split.

I think for the two lads they probably want to play away from Ireland for year.

We can then judge them on form for the world cup if they want to come back they can but if they wanted to stay away they could do.

I am sure they don't want to be in the bubble and getting abuse from "fans" or people doing protests who don't agree with the ruling

by LordDowlais Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:33 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Yeah of course there is that but both the IRFU and Ulster have backed players up for worse behaviour in the past, worse having a drunken 3some and involving themselves in a bit of bravado filled locker room chat. I think these lads should be allowed the chance to put this all behind them and that includes the lifestyle. People are all for giving second chances (but only if it fits their strict moral policies).

There must be some snow in hell, as I agree with pete 100% on this.

These boys have been found not guilty, now lets move on. Let them play rugby again. Why should Ulster not keep them ?

I would also like to think that these young boys, who started to believe their own hype, and give themselves ego's the size of a planet, will have now learned from this, become a lot more humble and make them better people.

None of us know what happened that night, none of know what the females intentions were. But we do know that these guys are innocent, proven in a court of law.

Time to move on.

by **RDW** Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:38 pm

I have had to lock this thread due to the nature of the discussion that was happening - this is a public forum so there are some things that cannot be said on here. I will do some editing then unlock it.

As such please only discuss matters of fact from the trial or how this will affect things from a rugby or playing point of view.

I appreciate there will be posters that find this a bit OTT but this is a very sensitive subject, and I have to take the interests of the forum first and foremost.

by **RDW** Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:42 pm

Unlocked.

by MUNCH Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:52 pm

I didn't think anything really bad was said, but you're the boss, so my last word on the subject.

by clivemcl Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:54 pm

OK,
A few things I need to get off my chest:

- The 'I Believe Her' campaign which began before the trial is disgusting. To claim somebody is guilty of something so serious that it's career and life destroying before hearing evidence is just disgraceful. And yet these folk are telling the rest they are sexist pigs etc simply for asking to hear the evidence first. What a world we live in.

- I've seen idiots respond to these people in an equally idiotic way which only further polarises our society on issues of sexism and issues around r***. Please, if you ask somebody to show respect, lead by example and do so in a respectful way.

- Our justice system is the best and fairest there is. I could give people countless examples of people who have spent decades in jail and once forensic technology emerged, it turned out these people were in fact innocent. There is nothing worse surely than wrongfully imprisoning an innocent person. And I'm glad we live in a society that has a justice system to minimise the chance of this happening.

- Finally, the point of a non-guilty verdict isn't just to say they don't get punished, it's a statement to the world that this person should NOT be punished. Legally, these guys should not miss out on ANY opportunity available to the rest of us.

- Ours and other's opinion of them as people is really of no consequence. If I was treated differently by anyone after being declared not guilty, you can be sure I'd be very angry and I'd take it to the courts.

by Sin é Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yeah of course there is that but both the IRFU and Ulster have backed players up for worse behaviour in the past, worse having a drunken 3some and involving themselves in a bit of bravado filled locker room chat. I think these lads should be allowed the chance to put this all behind them and that includes the lifestyle. People are all for giving second chances (but only if it fits their strict moral policies).

There must be some snow in hell, as I agree with pete 100% on this.

These boys have been found not guilty, now lets move on. Let them play rugby again. Why should Ulster not keep them ?

I would also like to think that these young boys, who started to believe their own hype, and give themselves ego's the size of a planet, will have now learned from this, become a lot more humble and make them better people.

None of us know what happened that night, none of know what the females intentions were. But we do know that these guys are innocent, proven in a court of law.

Time to move on.

No, we don't know that. We know that there is reasonable doubt that they were guilty.

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