Ulster Rugby 2017-18

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

clivemcl wrote:I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this to be honest. Its no secret that my allegiance is to Ulster before Ireland. So the idea of helping the national team doesn't sway me. Carberry would be useful while we have him, but then after we give him back, we are as weak at 10 as we are now, Phillips has been half back, and Leinster are stronger for it.
Somebody give me the counter argument here.

I'd happily take Carberry but it leaves me feeling a little cold too. Carberry with McPhillips as backup wouldn't fill me with confidence. Carberry coming to duke it out with a seasoned outhalf for the 10 shirt, now that'd be more like it. It'd bring on the likes of McPhillips too to be in amongst that kind of competition for shirts.

I did hear that Paddy has had a substantial offer from a French side and won't be considering a return to Raverspan.

I see Jacob Stockdale got player of the 6 nations. Well done big fella.

I'd agree rodders, Byrne for me would be the better option for Ulster. Carbery might be more box office which would please Logan but think Byrne would give better control and consistency which is what is needed. Think there has been very little drop off between Sexton and Byrne in big games when Byrnes started, think Byrnes been hard done by in not getting a call up to the Ireland squad.

Both though are very mature and would be a welcome addition, a more experienced player though may be a greater benefit to bringing through McPhillips

Pete330v2 wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I'm trying to figure out how I feel about this to be honest. Its no secret that my allegiance is to Ulster before Ireland. So the idea of helping the national team doesn't sway me. Carberry would be useful while we have him, but then after we give him back, we are as weak at 10 as we are now, Phillips has been half back, and Leinster are stronger for it.
Somebody give me the counter argument here.

I'd happily take Carberry but it leaves me feeling a little cold too. Carberry with McPhillips as backup wouldn't fill me with confidence. Carberry coming to duke it out with a seasoned outhalf for the 10 shirt, now that'd be more like it. It'd bring on the likes of McPhillips too to be in amongst that kind of competition for shirts.

I did hear that Paddy has had a substantial offer from a French side and won't be considering a return to Raverspan.

Its a judgement call though Pete.
Sign a top 10 and we will be short of a top forward.
We are not in a position to fill all the gaps we have and have to take some risks somewhere.
The feeling seems to be our forwards this year have been, quite frankly soft (Cunninghams words not mine) and need a complete overhaul.
I get the impression they only really have confidence in Best, Henderson and the youngsters coming through in the backrow. (I would add AOC to that)
Obviously to sign 3 newbies, Coetzee fit, Moore fit and Murphy would give us that overhaul.
In order to get to that position Cunningham has, possibly, made the call that Carbery, McPhillips, Cooney, Lowry, Curtis can see us through at 10.
Its a gamble but we need to gamble somewhere.
It also suits IRFU and don't underestimate that

I agree, I reckon Paddy is away by his own volition

marty2086 wrote:I'd agree rodders, Byrne for me would be the better option for Ulster. Carbery might be more box office which would please Logan but think Byrne would give better control and consistency which is what is needed. Think there has been very little drop off between Sexton and Byrne in big games when Byrnes started, think Byrnes been hard done by in not getting a call up to the Ireland squad.

Both though are very mature and would be a welcome addition, a more experienced player though may be a greater benefit to bringing through McPhillips

I reckon Leinster aren't open to Bryne leaving due to the fact he can play more of a Sexton type game than Carbery.
As to bringing players through - the coaching set up will be key, especially if the rumours Peel is away are true.

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I'd agree rodders, Byrne for me would be the better option for Ulster. Carbery might be more box office which would please Logan but think Byrne would give better control and consistency which is what is needed. Think there has been very little drop off between Sexton and Byrne in big games when Byrnes started, think Byrnes been hard done by in not getting a call up to the Ireland squad.

Both though are very mature and would be a welcome addition, a more experienced player though may be a greater benefit to bringing through McPhillips

I reckon Leinster aren't open to Bryne leaving due to the fact he can play more of a Sexton type game than Carbery.
As to bringing players through - the coaching set up will be key, especially if the rumours Peel is away are true.

You're probably right on Byrne but a boy can dream, the coaching setup will be important but there's nothing like having a guy there who can just say watch what I do

I guess Joe believes in Carbery as a potential stand-in/replacement for Sexton. He wouldn't be messing around with him there at this late point if he didn't.

But I'd say there is a frustration in Schmidt that Carbery seems oh-so-stubborn in not wanting to move to another Province so that he can prove why Joe rates him for 10 or gets more experience at 10.

Carbery is perhaps shooting himself in the foot by being so stubborn - to this point.  

But then Carbery too - well I don't know what his mind is like.  I haven't ever heard anything where he outlines a preference for any certain position.  Maybe there are interview snippets out there where he does outline what he's looking for in the long term.  10 or 15?  Which does he prefer?  Maybe he's clinging to the International train and going along with Joe's wishes for him for now but secretly hoping he might be in the running for long-term 15?

I don't know.  But if he wants to play 10 he would be better off select a Province and put the feelers out there to see what responses might come in.

Ulster Rugby team to play Cardiff Blues, Saturday 24th March at BT Cardiff Arms Park, kick-off 3.15pm (live on Sky Sports Arena):
(15-9): C Piutau; C Gilroy, L Marshall, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; J McPhillips, J Cooney;
(1-8): A Warwick, R Herring, W Herbst, A O'Connor (Captain), K Treadwell, I Henderson, C Ross, N Timoney;
Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, C Black, R Kane, M Dalton, M Rea, D Shanahan, P Nelson, L Ludik.

Good to see Clive Ross back in the side....said no one ever

Ross...................why??

Deysel challenging Logan for the tag 'scarlet pimpernel'

VdeMerwe clearly doesn't exist at all - a ghost like figure.
His scrimmaging was clearly a nightmare to watch.
Cant believe he will not, deservedly, be kicked into the long grass this summer.

Only other option at 7 is Timoney is it not? Maybe a warning to Deysel about his performances?

On another note, heres a video of Stockdale finding out he won player of the tournament

If Cunningham is any way true to his word then VDM and Deysel will be out the gap and i dont care what it costs. These guys are probably the fit guys that Gibbes has had a chance to work with. Thats why the selection.

So Ulster pretty much need 3 from the next three for the ERCC to still be a hope going into the last two games. Edinburgh now have 6 wins in a row, they're only a few points off Scarlets now but have played a game more with Scarlets playing Munster at Thomond tomorrow but have 3 home games left

Ulster- 24 Apr Cardiff (a), 6 Apr Edinburgh (a), 13 Apr Ospreys (h), 20-22 Apr Glasgow (h), 28 Apr Munster (a)

Edinburgh- 6 Apr Ulster (h), 14 Apr Scarlets (h), 28 Apr Glasgow (h)

Leinster          17   64
Scarlets          17   61
Edinburgh       18   59
Ulster              16   46
Treviso            17   40

Personally I think we are screwed.

Even 4 wins from 5 means we only qualify if Edinburgh loss both of the other games.
Scarlets will, probably, be focussing on a European semi-final and Edinburgh have a good record against Glasgow who will have nothing to play for by then.

Its the home play off against Connacht or Ospreys I reckon
Lose today, it might not be mathematical over but in practise it will be

Standulstermen wrote:If Cunningham is any way true to his word then VDM and Deysel will be out the gap and i dont care what it costs. These guys are probably the fit guys that Gibbes has had a chance to work with. Thats why the selection.

Rea is fit he is on the bench, I think other backrowers are available
Problem with ditching people is you have to pay their salary for the rest of the contract.
Money isn't limitless and as he said we have to take a hit because we are down to 2 NIQ.
VdeMerwe will be on less I expect him to be ditched but Deysel not

Seven Ulster players in the U18s Schools side, including the captain, Neil Doak's lad, the sprinter, Aaron Sexton and a second row from Letterkenny. Another lad on the bench.

U19s representation not so good (four), but captained by Azur Allison in back row.

Treviso have scored 2 tries in the first 5 minutes - they will be 1 point behind us at kick-off
Given they have both Dragons and Zebre at home our season goal is to win 2 of the last 5 games
otherwise we wont even make the European Championship play off

Crazy game 5 tries in 21 mins

2 to Kings 3 to Treviso

14-19

Bonus point for Treviso

Great start. Think ulster are still in the changing room

Ulster's defence is completely clueless, what balloon taught them to try and rip the ball instead of making the tackle.
For that try McCloskey goes to the player and attempts to rip the ball but there is no one making the tackle so the rip doesn't work and Cardiff get through and put us on the back foot.
The defence is absolute crap so keep it simple, just put the man down and stop that crap that has been going on all season.
These guys need proper coaching and a slap round the head

Marshall and McCloskey have both been poor in defence, Marshalls having one of those days he has too often now where he looks like he's been dragged out of bed before kick off

Our attack is even worse than our defence, Cardiff constantly reading the pass out the back and no real variation to anything now beyond give it to Piutau

And with that I'm off out. Can't watch any more of that drivel. They need to get Kiss out of their system with evwry tackle attempting the choke, McCloskey knows no other way.

Maul illegally pulled down half a yard from the try line an no penalty try

The players just look like they just want the season to end

I wonder how many signings or coaching staff are holding off till they find out what competition they are in next season.

Tackling has been non existent. Embarrassing.

At this rate we could all have a game next season.

Well done to Cardiff for a deserved win and the BP.

Commiserations Ulster - the season isn’t getting any easier.

Best I’ve seen Blues finish for a long time.

Cardiff, such an average team on paper yet playing very well in this half of the season. Sadly I don't think they have the cash or coach to move forward next season.

Pot Hale wrote:Well done to Cardiff for a deserved win and the BP.

Commiserations Ulster - the season isn’t getting any easier.

What changes for Ulster next season? Like Glasgow I think they would be better this season had they not been hit by injuries. On paper that squad is pretty hot and they're as good as the top 2 Provinces.

The Ulster job will be tricky next year. Top 6 will most likely be (in no order)

Leinster
Munster
Glasgow
Scariest
Cheetahs

That leaves one place for play offs and two more for champs cup. Those teams would be
Ulster
Connacht
Edinburgh
Ospreys
Blues
Treviso

With the lower teams improving a coach could do well with Ulster and still miss out, which the fans would consider failure. Next year Clearmont are in the Challenge so not exactly easy to win next year but winning any trophy would be great for Ulster so every cloud and all that.

What happens if Edinburgh win the Cup does that mean the Pro14 get an extra slot.

Clermont in the challenge cup next year, yet they're like the best team in the champions cup this year...

mikey_dragon wrote:Clermont in the challenge cup next year, yet they're like the best team in the champions cup this year...

2nd best 

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Clermont in the challenge cup next year, yet they're like the best team in the champions cup this year...

2nd best 

They had an easy group

Brendan wrote:The Ulster job will be tricky next year.  Top 6 will most likely be (in no order)

Leinster
Munster
Glasgow
Scariest
Cheetahs

That leaves one place for play offs and two more for champs cup.  Those teams would be
Ulster
Connacht
Edinburgh
Ospreys
Blues
Treviso

With the lower teams improving a coach could do well with Ulster and still miss out, which the fans would consider failure.  Next year Clearmont are in the Challenge so not exactly easy to win next year but winning any trophy would be great for Ulster so every cloud and all that.

What happens if Edinburgh win the Cup does that mean the Pro14 get an extra slot.

Given the player movement so far I definitely would not put Cheetahs in the top 5

mikey_dragon wrote:Clermont in the challenge cup next year, yet they're like the best team in the champions cup this year...

Your going by past glories - Leinster miles ahead.
Scarlets better and the rest of the QFs as good as

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Well done to Cardiff for a deserved win and the BP.

Commiserations Ulster - the season isn’t getting any easier.

What changes for Ulster next season? Like Glasgow I think they would be better this season had they not been hit by injuries. On paper that squad is pretty hot and they're as good as the top 2 Provinces.

Our squad is hot - really you obviously don't know the players well enough.
Only 3 forwards up to scratch and one of them has been injured all season.
Best, Henderson, Coetzee.
We do have some promising youngsters but even so
Also no 10

As Cunningham said our forwards are soft - take to today.
Warwick, Herbst, Treadwell, Ross - half the pack woefully inadequate

We have recognised this - signed Murphy, signed Moore who will be ok if we get him fit (god knows what Wasps are doing)
Over and above that Cunningham has identified we need a LH, Lock, backrower.
Basically Best and Henderson apart all our experienced forwards, to a man, have not been good enough

Our best clearer out of the breakdown today was Luke Marshall.
Our backs have spent half the season doing the forwards job

geoff999rugby wrote:

Brendan wrote:The Ulster job will be tricky next year.  Top 6 will most likely be (in no order)

Leinster
Munster
Glasgow
Scariest
Cheetahs

That leaves one place for play offs and two more for champs cup.  Those teams would be
Ulster
Connacht
Edinburgh
Ospreys
Blues
Treviso

With the lower teams improving a coach could do well with Ulster and still miss out, which the fans would consider failure.  Next year Clearmont are in the Challenge so not exactly easy to win next year but winning any trophy would be great for Ulster so every cloud and all that.

What happens if Edinburgh win the Cup does that mean the Pro14 get an extra slot.

Given the player movement so far I definitely would not put Cheetahs in the top 5

The reason I include them is their home is a hard place to go and will pick up a few away wins. They have struggled recently but partly due to the long season. Plus they have 3 games against the Kings

But they will not be as strong next year and are not yet certain to make the play offs this year.
Also Kings will be stronger next year
They belong in the pack not in the likely qualifiers

Either way it will be hard. It will be interesting to see the conferences. I think a good coach would get Ulster back up though. A Cokerril type to make them hard to beat up front. They have the backs but as you say they need a better pack.

geoff999rugby wrote:Our best clearer out of the breakdown today was Luke Marshall.
Our backs have spent half the season doing the forwards job

Forwards seem more focused on reloading and getting into the defensive line, think today was the first I've seen Timoney try clearing anyone out of a ruck. For all the criticism of Deysel he at least puts in a decent shift at breakdowns and tries to compete

Timoney has cleared out a hell of a lot more rucks than the likes of Treadwell who has been absolutely useless this year
and unlike Deysel he doesn't have butter for hands or the turning circle of an oil tanker

If they are serious about Operation Deadwood then Deysel and VDM should both go. I cant believe the IRFU seem as nonchalant as they do regarding the situation. 2 provinces in the Heineken is dire, dire times. Timoney gets a pass for me. In a better defensive system and with a bit of work on his contact skills he could be useful. Pains me to say it but a lock is sorely needed. AoC and Treadwell dont cut it. Wouldnt mind seeing the agnew lad and Dalton get some minutes but i'd also like us to let the clubs focus on improving their league positions. Malone are more or less up already so Dalton is grand and Agnew is Ballymena ( i think ) who wont be relegated automatically at least.

Timoney has been our best backrower this year (ignoring the odd Henderson cameo, and the singular Coetzee cameo)
In, effectively, his first full season and with minimal help he has done as well as anyone could expect.
He will start to shine alongside the likes of Murphy and a fit Coetzee

Treadwell has been awful, AOC I give a bit more slack to but I agree not first team material.
Cunningham admitted as much when he said we need a Lock to play alongside Henderson

Deysel has to go for the simple reason we can use the NIQ slot for a player who will enhance the team - he doesn't

I’d agree on that summation of Timoney Geoff. I think AoC should be fighting it out while he can for 3rd choice lock with Dalton. Treadwell has been massively disappointing.

It sounds terrible given how important the right coach is but we really need to hurry it along as players are getting snapped up every week.

Gibbes spoke after the game about having to look at how players have been prepared, it's too little too late. It's the seventh game this season we've lost by more than 14 and in more than 7 games we've been bullied, too many of our forwards have dropped off under Gibbes, Treadwell was on Joe's radar prior to Gibbes, as was Reidy, our lineout for most of the season has been an area of concern and Deysel came to us from Munster having looked like a bull in red, now he's more of a pussycat. Even Henderson in white for me isn't the same player but when you doing the work of 3 or 4 guys it's not easy

KOTH says Aaron Hall off to Edinburgh

What is Hall good at - tackling
What didn't our forwards do yesterday - tackle
Solution - get rid of a promising young tackler
Not yet 20 and has shown so much promise.
Watch him shin under Cockerill
If our promising youngster start leaving we are screwed
We need to secure the better one s and quick or he wont be the only one leaving

To be honest he probably wants away from a team that is a complete shamble - cant say I blame him

The team mostly look disinterested. The coaches look disinterested. Even I'm getting disinterested!
At this rate can't see Ulster winning another point this season, but am disinclined to blame the players too much. There have been times when all the players being written off have been good enough, and the malaise is more to do with how they are being directed.

Hall? Jesus thats a shock. We shouldn't be giving away promising young backrows albeit i think Agnew has possibly looked slightly better. We have Dunleavy, Agnew and Hall in the U20s this year with Allison looking like backing them up a year later. Surely we cant afford to let any of these prospects (and thats all they are) go? Baffling.