New Zealand v England Test Series

by Duty281 Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

The first test of a largely ignored series has started.

England 6/1 at the moment. Would you believe Alastair Cook is out nicking to slip? You would? Quite...

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:57 pm

And not long to wait as Anderson is caught and England are bowled out for 320. New Zealand seal a deserved win to lead the two match series 1-0.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:04 pm

So NZ get the win that has been ordained since the first hour and a half on Thursday. Only an hour or so to spare so England actually fought this one out better than other recent attempts at saving a draw : but you still have to ask about the concentration factor .
Two well set bats basically threw their wickets when not much was happening for the bowlers ; and three others went in the last couple of balls before an interval. (And one of them a gift too !) This game is played quite a lot in the head ; and I fear this is where England are failing at the moment.
Never mind : NZ deserve a lot of praise for the way they've taken this victory - a devastating opening day bowling effort followed by sensible resolute batting and the patience to work their way through the England second innings : well done them clap

England have some work to do for Friday's rematch...

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:09 pm

Boult MoTM ...fair enough. First innings destroyer - and the vital wicket of Root last night. Had to get it ...though on another day Williamson would have been a worthy winner - he led his team brilliantly.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:29 pm

Has there be any update on Root’s fingers? I presume if they were broken we’d have heard by now...but not seen any official update

by guildfordbat Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:36 pm

alfie wrote:Boult MoTM ...fair enough. First innings destroyer - and the vital wicket of Root last night. Had to get it ...though on another day Williamson would have been a worthy winner - he led his team brilliantly.

Agreed. As you say, at another time Williamson would have been a worthy winner - brilliant captaincy, a vital century and astounding catching. The fact that the award rightly went to Boult just emphasises how his bowling in the first 90 minutes or so determined the inevitable outcome of the game notwithstanding two days of rain and some belated grit from England.

An honourable mention as well to Nicholls for such a controlled innings which extended New Zealand's dominance whilst Watling delivered a highly effective and understand performance behind the stumps. I also liked the energy and will to succeed of Olly's current pin-up Wagner; Lloyd said he wasn't that fast, not sure about that - I wouldn't have wanted to face the ball that got Woakes!

by guildfordbat Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:49 pm

''It was a very different press conference, wasn't it.'' - Joe Root's wonderful response to Ian Ward's question about the contrast between the Smith / Bancroft press conference in Australia and the one at the weekend in South Africa.

If Root and the rest of the England team can stonewall in the second Test as well as he did in that interview, it'll take a lot longer than a morning to bowl us all out first dig!

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:51 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Has there be any update on Root’s fingers? I presume if they were broken we’d have heard by now...but not seen any official update

Well he wasn't even sent for a scan of the finger so I think we can safely say there was no break.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:45 pm

Hi guildford... Wagner certainly seems to be a master of the short ball does he not ?
Look he may not be actually express but he's quick enough ; and more to the point he can direct his lifters pretty accurately ...which when it comes down to it counts for more than just outright pace. He also seems to have great endurance ; takes a lot of energy to keep pounding them in like that (incidentally what has happened to the limits on short balls in an over ? Seemed like five out of six at times ...)
You're right about Nicholls : I wouldn't have had him down for a big hundred ! Not sure England expected it either...

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:01 pm

Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:02 pm

Assuming Root is OK to play what changes can England make ?

Again a lot depends on whether or not Stokes can bowl . Doubtful with the short turn around , I fear. A big problem because although he played well today , ideally he's at six rather than five - and Root and Malan are better placed as four and five also. I would like Vince or Livingstone (for all the doubts about their quality ) at three...especially after what happened on Thursday.
If Stokes can bowl its then not too difficult to balance the attack : with YJB back at seven you can play either Woakes or Overton - probably the former - at eight ; yes I'm dropping Moeen ! And see what Leach can do as the spinner. Anderson/Broad backed up by Woakes /Stokes - if Leach can actually take wickets that could work.
But if Stokes can't bowl...
Still need to change the spinner as at the moment any pressure built up by the pace men is immediately dissipated as soon as Moeen comes on ; he's offered nothing with the ball since Brisbane , whether down to confidence , finger soreness or whatever. Leach can not do worse...and sadly it's not costing much in the run department on recent form.
But : can they go with just three pace men plus a rookie spinner ? Because if they can't that tail is getting alarmingly long...

Medical staff in for a busy couple of days.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:08 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:23 pm

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

In an ideal world I'd change/drop at least one batsman but what are the options on that front? James Vince? No thank you. Perhaps try Livingstone but he is more of an all-rounder than an out-and-out batsman so I could only see him playing if Stokes is not fit. I think batting changes will have to wait until the summer series now.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:49 pm

At least England showed some backbone in the second innings, but we still lost by an innings in around 3 days of cricket. Ultimately we lost due to that first day, but so manny batters making double figures and 50s and not going on meant we were unable to use the weather and save it. That Root, Bairstow and Stokes were all out in the last over of a session did not help.

Ideally we would look at the batters - but who is available to make any decent changes?

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:56 pm

The reason I suggest changes to the bowling is that England's is monochrome. By that I mean all one shade and far too similar. Add colour to it by adding something different as in a bit more pace from Mark Wood and a spinner who can do a better job than Ali.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:02 pm

Well only Vince and Livingstone because that is who were picked for the tour.
Vince has so far flattered to deceive and Livingstone is untried. But I think one of them should come in because we saw here that getting the once potent late middle order in one place higher than usual was not a spectacular success Smile

Can't get away from the fact that there are only two proven "top four" Test bats in the squad - and Cook is finding runs hard to come by against these left arm pace men... No ideal answer but I think a bit of ballast might conceivably help. Not really much difference in "trying" Livingstone with the bat or taking a punt on Leach with the ball , is there ? Might have to do both...

by guildfordbat Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:10 pm

On possible England batsmen for the summer (not New Zealand now), I posted the other day that Hammed is showing encouraging signs of return to form and fitness. I also thought that the selectors were a bit quick off their marks - unusually for them these days - in jettisoning Westley. He's had finger surgery over the winter but is expected back for the start of the Championship. Early runs from him could see a return and the filling of that tricky number 3 spot.

by alfie Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:17 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The reason I suggest changes to the bowling is that England's is monochrome. By that I mean all one shade and far too similar. Add colour to it by adding something different as in a bit more pace from Mark Wood and a spinner who can do a better job than Ali.

Oh I get that , Craig . I just don't think the fragile batting allows it (or at least , both ) this week. And remember too that (a) Leach is untried : he might do well ; or he might get hammered like Kerrigan , Crane etc... (I'd still try him) and (b) Wood for all the hype has never managed more than a couple of wickets in a Test innings. And his pace seems to be down a bit post-injury.( A left arm bowler might be handy ; but there ain't one around.)

I am also disappointed with the bowling performance on this whole tour but I actually felt the pace men were quite good in this match ...a spinner who actually threatened might have made all the difference which is why I'd prioritize Leach over Wood.
As I say , a great deal depends on Stokes and his fitness. I don't want to kill Jimmy and Broad but I think six bowlers is too many : four and a half is about right ...but we will have to see the pitch in Christchurch.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:20 pm

I’d play Stoneman at three if we can trust Hameed to open. You can see so many good England sides with more belligerent threes.

by Duty281 Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:If you haven't already, help yourself to the 1/3 on New Zealand winning this test.

All too easy.

England recovered some pride in the second innings, but the test was over in the first hour.

Difficult to see any other result than a 2-0 to the hosts.

by CaledonianCraig Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:37 pm

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The reason I suggest changes to the bowling is that England's is monochrome. By that I mean all one shade and far too similar. Add colour to it by adding something different as in a bit more pace from Mark Wood and a spinner who can do a better job than Ali.

Oh I get that , Craig . I just don't think the fragile batting allows it (or at least , both ) this week. And remember too that (a) Leach is untried : he might do well ; or he might get hammered like Kerrigan , Crane etc... (I'd still try him) and (b) Wood for all the hype has never managed more than a couple of wickets in a Test innings. And his pace seems to be down a bit post-injury.( A left arm bowler might be handy ; but there ain't one around.)

I am also disappointed with the bowling performance on this whole tour but I actually felt the pace men were quite good in this match ...a spinner who actually threatened might have made all the difference which is why I'd prioritize Leach over Wood.
As I say , a great deal depends on Stokes and his fitness. I don't want to kill Jimmy and Broad but I think six bowlers is too many : four and a half is about right ...but we will have to see the pitch in Christchurch.

Oh I am not talking about whole scale changes just ones that offer a little more variety. Woakes and Overton are far too similar paced and what they offer so one of them should make way for Wood who offers more pace. Leach should replace Ali who has been dining out on form from more than a year ago now for too long. No complaints about Anderson and Broad though and if Stokes is not fit then replace him with Livingston.

by JDizzle Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:35 pm

guildfordbat wrote:On possible England batsmen for the summer (not New Zealand now), I posted the other day that Hammed is showing encouraging signs of return to form and fitness. I also thought that the selectors were a bit quick off their marks - unusually for them these days - in jettisoning Westley. He's had finger surgery over the winter but is expected back for the start of the Championship. Early runs from him could see a return and the filling of that tricky number 3 spot.

Joe Clarke (Worcs) and Nick Gubbins (Middlesex) both got big runs in the recent North vs South series of ODI games. Two names to keep an eye out for this summer if they start the season well!

by guildfordbat Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:52 am

JD - yep, agree about Clarke and Gubbins. Our man Key was talking about Gubbins' chances this morning.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:34 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

In an ideal world I'd change/drop at least one batsman but what are the options on that front? James Vince? No thank you. Perhaps try Livingstone but he is more of an all-rounder than an out-and-out batsman so I could only see him playing if Stokes is not fit. I think batting changes will have to wait until the summer series now.

Livingstone isn’t an all rounder

by CaledonianCraig Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:10 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

In an ideal world I'd change/drop at least one batsman but what are the options on that front? James Vince? No thank you. Perhaps try Livingstone but he is more of an all-rounder than an out-and-out batsman so I could only see him playing if Stokes is not fit. I think batting changes will have to wait until the summer series now.

Livingstone isn’t an all rounder

Not on the scale of Stokes - no. But he has wickets to his name even for England 'A' team.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:20 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

In an ideal world I'd change/drop at least one batsman but what are the options on that front? James Vince? No thank you. Perhaps try Livingstone but he is more of an all-rounder than an out-and-out batsman so I could only see him playing if Stokes is not fit. I think batting changes will have to wait until the summer series now.

Livingstone isn’t an all rounder

Not on the scale of Stokes - no. But he has wickets to his name even for England 'A' team.

He’s essentially the Lidl version of Root - bowls some occasional spin

by CaledonianCraig Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:25 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

In an ideal world I'd change/drop at least one batsman but what are the options on that front? James Vince? No thank you. Perhaps try Livingstone but he is more of an all-rounder than an out-and-out batsman so I could only see him playing if Stokes is not fit. I think batting changes will have to wait until the summer series now.

Livingstone isn’t an all rounder

Not on the scale of Stokes - no. But he has wickets to his name even for England 'A' team.

He’s essentially the Lidl version of Root - bowls some occasional spin

Yes but should Stokes back injury rule him out of the Second Test then I am pretty sure it is Livingstone who'll come in as he is aggressive batsman.

by guildfordbat Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:41 am

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

Not having a go at you either, Craig, although this tweet from some random (as the Batgirls would say) and reproduced on the Surrey supporters site gave me a big smile:
''When we were 27/9 I wasn't thinking how much difference Jack Leach would have made.'' Very Happy

by CaledonianCraig Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:28 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Wagner really does great stints. Bowls predominantly short-pitched stuff that are very uncomfortable to play and he can keep those spells up for good lengths. Impressive.

Pleased to see pundits falling into my school of thought. It is time for changes in this England side. Aliu out for Leach and Woakes or Overton out for Wood. Too many players are being able to keep their places on utter mediocrity.

Hi Craig ...we posted at the same time .

Interesting that England lost the match by being bowled out for 58 and your solution is to change two bowlers... Not that I'm having a go at you as I also see the need to juice up the attack ; just that I'm not sure that solves the main issue...not enough runs. Do you really want Woakes ./Broad./Wood ./Leach ./Anderson as 7-11 after the dodgy top six combination we saw this last week ?
Not that I really have a perfect solution either...

Not having a go at you either, Craig, although this tweet from some random (as the Batgirls would say) and reproduced on the Surrey supporters site gave me a big smile:
''When we were 27/9 I wasn't thinking how much difference Jack Leach would have made.''

No but New Zealand's much better bowling variety was evident. England must address that and add variety. Anderson, Broad, Overton and Woakes are too similar and with Ali as toothless as a new born baby there is virtually no spin option.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:48 am

I'm on record as being a "Leach hater" - seen him live twice, and neither time was I impressed, just think he is Kerrigan version 2.0 - but I do accept he deserves a go, albeit I'm not sure chucking him into the second test here would be a good idea for his career - I think you could make a case for just having Root/Livingstone handle any spin duties, and going with an all seam attack. Save Leach for the home summer, and tour to Sri Lanka next winter, in more favourable situations...

by CaledonianCraig Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:58 am

Jonathan Agnew seems to share my views on the possible changes and reasons for them:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43540493

by JDizzle Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:59 am

I remain convinced that Livingstone is going to be a dud based on a couple of T20 knocks vs SA, where he could barely lay bat on ball so I think twice is easily enough to totally right someone off! I've not seen him bowl, so can't comment but I think he should play. As Atherton said, you can't just keep trotting the same team out when you are in the bad run England are away from home - and even if it might look like you making the team 'worse', it might just give everyone the kick up the arse they need if you drop some big names.

Admittedly it is easier to play him if Stokes is fit to bowl, but we have Pakistan and India this summer who arguably could be tougher tests for Leach than NZ.

GB - I've not seen Gubbins play, but if Key thinks he has a bit about him then he normally has keen eye for a bit of talent. I am biased on Clarke, as I have played against him so would love to see him get a shot, but he's been on England's radar for a long time and came through the U19 team so he will get his go sooner or later.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:01 am

And I’m not really a believer in Wood either - he wasn’t particularly good in tests before he had his third ankle surgery, and I doubt he’s gonna be any better after. For me he lacks control and ability to move the ball, which is what makes guys who bowl that fast special (Rabada, Starc, Cummins etc)

He’s worth a shot in a five man attack ahead of Overton I’d say tho, even if he just bowls three over spells or something.

by guildfordbat Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:04 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Jonathan Agnew seems to share my views on the possible changes and reasons for them:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43540493

Don't let that put you off though, Craig. Smile

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:09 am

Frankly, he’s earned the right by not being as tepid as Woakes, Ali and Overton. A small squad (and I think test squads are always a bit small) is all that keeps those three in a place. I’d even be tempted to play Wood, Leach and Livingstone over the three above. Does depend on Stokes a touch, but those three contributed about 1 for 120.

by guildfordbat Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:35 am

Before everyone inks Wood's name in their team for the next Test, a cautionary tale.

Surrey's Stuart Meaker is one of the faster English bowlers on the county circuit. He's 29 now and has played a couple of ODIs and a couple of international T20s. So he's neither an inexperienced rookie or a trundling mug with the ball. Surrey and Auckland agreed that he would play four first class matches for Auckland throughout March to hopefully help them achieve success as their season approached a close and also help his and Surrey's chances for the coming English season.

Sounds like a plan. So what happened? Meaker produced a return of 1/254 from his first three matches and was dropped for the fourth.

Whilst this is all a worry for Meaker and Surrey, it doesn't relate to England other than perhaps showing that pace isn't enough when bowling in New Zealand on their tracks and at often small grounds. The bowler also needs to have control and fitness - that is where each of Boult, Southee and Wagner excelled in the first Test. I suspect it was Meaker's control that let him and Auckland down. If the selectors are satisfied as to both control and fitness for Wood, then by all means pick him - as suggested elsewhere, it'll be good to bring something different to the party. However, it shouldn't be regarded as a given that he has all necessary prerequisites. I can't tell from here but he has a worrying record in both areas, certainly more worrying than when Meaker first headed to Auckland.

by alfie Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:36 am

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Jonathan Agnew seems to share my views on the possible changes and reasons for them:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43540493

Don't let that put you off though, Craig.

That gave me a much needed laugh , guildford Smile

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:21 pm

Wood is different though, and he’s the main different option. Woakes and Overton are only “different” in that they’re worse

by CaledonianCraig Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:35 pm

Variety in attack is what England need. What does Overton/Woakes/Anderson/Broad all have in common? They bowl at roughly the same pace. Wood has more pace than all of them and that extra pace is variety. If that extra pace troubles just one batsman it will get one more wicket than the slower paced bowler who will miss out who did not gather a clutch of wickets in the last test. Ali is out of form - that isn't even up for debate. England need a spin option and at present that isn't Ali so let Leach show what he can do.

by Gooseberry Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:35 pm

The issue with Wood and Leach both coming is that it worsens the batting and puts more pressure on the top order. Runs on the board was an even bigger issue than bowling in the last test.

Stokes being fit to bowl makes a big difference and would allow another specialist bat (Livingstone) in for Moeen or Overton. Then either Wood or Leach could also come in for the other.

I dont see Wood as a magic bullet by any means but Overton is a pretty average bowler and the nearest thing to variety England have available.

Leach is a more exciting prospect for a short term improvement to the teeth in Englands attack ...not that Id expect him to rip through NZ but Moeens been so consitently useless all winter he has to be an improvement.

...but if you go back to batting being a bigger issue theres stil the argument that 3 part timers could fil the spinners role. Again that could come down to whether or not Stokes is fit to bat.

As suual lots of wrong answers whicever way the edeckchairs are shuffled. Whats really going to make a difference is something to spark the players back into deliveringw hat they are capable of rather than playing so far below par. It doesnt matter who you pick if theres a collective mental collapse on the scale of that first innings.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:54 pm

I’m not sure losing Ali affects the batting right now

by wisden Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:32 pm

IMO Leach and Livingstone have to play the 2nd test

by Jetty Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:33 am

1 Cook
2 Stoneman
3 Livingstone
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Bairstow
7 Foakes
8 Overton
9 Broad
10 Wood
11 Anderson

Livingstone Root Malan for spin

Summer
1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Gubbins
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Clarke
7 Bairstow
8 Roland-Jones
9 Broad
10 Leach
11 Anderson

by **LondonTiger** Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:37 am

Jetty wrote:1 Cook
2 Stoneman
3 Livingstone
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Bairstow
7 Foakes
8 Overton
9 Broad
10 Wood
11 Anderson

Livingstone Root Malan for spin

Tricky if he is not in the team Run

by wisden Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:06 am

by Jetty Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Jetty wrote:1 Cook
2 Stoneman
3 Livingstone
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Bairstow
7 Foakes
8 Overton
9 Broad
10 Wood
11 Anderson

Livingstone Root Malan for spin

Tricky if he is not in the team

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:47 pm

So england have confirmed Woakes and Moeen are dropped and no Livingstone - Stokes unlikely to bowl...

My guess is

Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Overton
Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

Which just seems like possibly the longest tail ever. Unless they go

Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Overton
Wood/Leach
Broad
Anderson

Which would make more sense, but means Root/Malan/Vince will have to get through some overs. Have to admit I’m slightly shocked they’ve gone with Vince over Livingstone tbh

by LivinginItaly Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:20 pm

Olly I think the team will most likely be your second selection, but with wood over leach, hoping that the part timers of Malan and root will be sufficient for the occasional overs of spin if/when necessary. However, I would prefer to see Vince at 5 with root and Malan moving up one place.

by alfie Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:24 pm

Ah. Wonder which ? Can you really play Wood in a 4 bowler attack? Only if it is four pace men , I think , with Root and Malan to spin ... so no Leach.
If Leach plays the pace trio look a bit light so that long tail might eventuate...

Guess we need to see the pitch. My money on Vince and Wood the two "in" - and the Leach fans still lamenting.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:50 pm

Really surprised they’ve dropped Woakes and kept Overton - has Woakes really been worse than Broad all winter? Has Overton ultimately shown much with the ball to justify keeping his slot? I’m less than convinced (albeit I recognise Woakes has been poor with the ball too)

by Gooseberry Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Really surprised they’ve dropped Woakes and kept Overton - has Woakes really been worse than Broad all winter? Has Overton ultimately shown much with the ball to justify keeping his slot? I’m less than convinced (albeit I recognise Woakes has been poor with the ball too)

Me too Olly, but it may be that they have a specific theory regarding Overtons bowling and certain batsmen. Woakes has been poor away from England with the ball all career, not just this winter. Maybe as well they feel hes burnt out as a 3 format player. I dunno, Im fishing for reasons a bit but I was surprised when they went for Overton over Wood. Its pretty clear someone rates him very highly, or at leas that they dont want to be bumping young players in an out the side without giving them a "fair run".

The return of Vince over Livingstone is equally eyebrow raising.

Let it never be said that England arent willing to go against the tide of fan opinion! You do have to put some trust in the England leadership knowing more than we do, but then this is the same side that put Butler at 7 as a speciliast batsmen in tests and genuinely though Dawson, Ansari and Dawson were test class spinners (awaits Guilfords explosion of rage).

As for final test XI make up they seem to have given themselves options dependant on Stokes' ability to bowl and how much of a role spinner might play. If Stokes can bowl then they can accomodate Leach and Vince, that to me is probably best case. Its possible of course in that scenario that Wood would also replace Overton (hell even Broad as noted by Olly, since hes been wasting the new ball so much).
If Stokes Cant bowl then the only way I see to bring in the additional batsman is to not pick Leach. But if it looks like spin could play a big part then having the specilist spinner surely trumps selecting a failed batsman.

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