New Zealand v England Test Series

First topic message reminder :

The first test of a largely ignored series has started.

England 6/1 at the moment. Would you believe Alastair Cook is out nicking to slip? You would? Quite...

Can't seem to shift these two...think it is going to be a draw. Well defended NZ

Root has bowled quite a lot. Little surprised he's not tried Malan...

Hoping this works as a jinx...but Leach looking about as threatening as my nan here...surely give Broad/Jimmy the final overs?

One must wonder how long our aussie (for a better word) COACH can keep his test role. Seems to me if you put a T20 coach (there's that word again) in charge of tests, we shouldn't be surprised by T20 type performances. Of course Strauss can't sack him without having to admit he mistake.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hoping this works as a jinx...but Leach looking about as threatening as my nan here...surely give Broad/Jimmy the final overs?

Ah well at least Leach out-performed Ali with bat and ball on this tour and should see him given another chance over the toothless and shell-shocked Ali in the summer.

Well played New Zealand and a thoroughly deserved series win.

Can't begrudge NZ their series win : I reckon 2 match series are a joke ; but they won the first one with the hour or so of mayhem on day one...and stayed strong to close it out despite loss of many hours play. Then today they've battled their way to a deserved draw...well done them

England will be disappointed no doubt after their great start this morning . I was only "watching" on text so cannot judge whether failure to take the remaining wickets was down to (a) basic lack of firepower (b) mistakes in tactics : did they "rush" their overs too much ?  I know there was a lot of concern about possible early finish - perhaps it transferred too much of the pressure that should have been on the batsmen onto England's bowlers ? Or (c) NZ were just too solid on a pretty benign pitch...

Worth noting I guess that after lunch on day three virtually all the wickets on both sides fell to loose shots rather than incisive bowling. Think it became basically a batsman's track .

Leach on debut took two ...not rubbish ; not enough to suggest he's the new Swann just yet , is it ?  Keeps him in the frame...and I guess Wood produced some decent stuff today ...but the lack of a real fifth bowler hurt : if you only have four , I reckon three of them need to be top drawer.

Anyway a decent Test Match to end the series. Is it too much to hope Australia will bat out tonight and stop SA getting too smug ?  probably
...

Edit : definitely ...they are 98/6

alfie wrote:

Leach on debut took two ...not rubbish ; not enough to suggest he's the new Swann just yet , is it ?  Keeps him in the frame...and I guess Wood produced some decent stuff today ...but the lack of a real fifth bowler hurt : if you only have four , I reckon three of them need to be top drawer.

 

No England spinner has taken more than 2 wickets in a game since the first West Indies test...so its kind of relative really! 

In fairness to England they did try to pick their best attacking bowlers in this game, the issue is they simply dont have any especially good ones aside from Anderson (when hes not knackered) and the once every 10 innings Broad we saw here. Im surprised they didnt bowl Stokes more tbh, was bowling pretty fast and was causing problems ...but I guess they are playing the long game with him and not taking any risks.

Ultimately Wood just inst really quite fast good enough to be a top class enforcer and maybe he was a bit misued here, certainly in the first innings. But England can only work with what theyve got.

As with teh batsmen we have to accept in the short term that the side has place fillers and makeweights who are going to struggle to make a big impact at test level. They really arent a good side regardless of selections, and a half fit Stokes only highlights that further.

With Anderson Broad and Cook all flirting with retirement things are only likely to get worse over the next couple of years. The Lions havent exactly set the world on fire, its hard to see where the replacements would come from let alone improving on Stoneman, Vince, Malan, Leach and Wood.

Yeah I don't disagree much with all that , Goose.

Seems England have a lot of players who are "just about" good enough ...but apart from the aging stars only Root Bairstow and Stokes are totally convincing at the moment.

Will help a lot when Stokes is fully fit : gives them a real fifth bowler who can have a genuine impact - I don't think he was up to doing it in this match even had they tried to bowl him more.

Moeen took wickets in the summer. Made runs too. Had a rotten tour but I think he's a bit better than that ...which is not to say he is the answer to the spinner question. Shoot out between him and Leach for now ?

Surely law of averages says a top batsman is about due to surface ?

The Stokes stuff was a bit baffling. He seemed to be being protected from tiredness: there’s a bit of a break now!

Duty281 wrote:11/8 available on New Zealand to win the test series on the 'draw no bet' market. That would be superb value on the outright market alone, let alone having insurance to go with it!

Time to break open the bank, again. Bloody bookmakers are bloody clueless.

Scraped that one, but it'll do!

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:The Stokes stuff was a bit baffling. He seemed to be being protected from tiredness: there’s a bit of a break now!

Stokes, Ali Wood and Woakes all off to the IPL which starts on the 7th April.

alfie wrote:Yeah I don't disagree much with all that , Goose.

Seems England have a lot of players who are "just about" good enough ...but apart from the aging stars only Root Bairstow and Stokes are totally convincing at the moment.

Will help a lot when Stokes is fully fit : gives them a real fifth bowler who can have a genuine impact - I don't think he was up to doing it in this match even had they tried to bowl him more.  

Moeen took wickets in the summer. Made runs too.  Had a rotten tour but I think he's a bit better than that ...which is not to say he is the answer to the spinner question. Shoot out between him and Leach for now ?

Surely law of averages says a top batsman is about due to surface ?

Yeah I think it’s a shootout for a lot of spots for the summer Alfie - Bayliss has intimated that in his post match interview too. The only real certainties are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson for me. Malan will likely be in unless he has a horrific start to the summer. Rest of the spots are up for grabs! Guys like Gubbins, Hameed, Lawrence, Clarke, Northeast, Hain, Burns all have a chance to stake a claim in the batting department. Bowling options are more limited however I’d say, third seamer is a shootout between TRJ, Wood and Woakes imo. Spinner is anyone’s guess, none of them have done themselves any favours this winter...maybe if someone like Bess has a good start to the summer he might get a look in

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Yeah I don't disagree much with all that , Goose.

Seems England have a lot of players who are "just about" good enough ...but apart from the aging stars only Root Bairstow and Stokes are totally convincing at the moment.

Will help a lot when Stokes is fully fit : gives them a real fifth bowler who can have a genuine impact - I don't think he was up to doing it in this match even had they tried to bowl him more.  

Moeen took wickets in the summer. Made runs too.  Had a rotten tour but I think he's a bit better than that ...which is not to say he is the answer to the spinner question. Shoot out between him and Leach for now ?

Surely law of averages says a top batsman is about due to surface ?

Yeah I think it’s a shootout for a lot of spots for the summer Alfie - Bayliss has intimated that in his post match interview too. The only real certainties are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson for me. Malan will likely be in unless he has a horrific start to the summer. Rest of the spots are up for grabs! Guys like Gubbins, Hameed, Lawrence, Clarke, Northeast, Hain, Burns all have a chance to stake a claim in the batting department. Bowling options are more limited however I’d say, third seamer is a shootout between TRJ, Wood and Woakes imo. Spinner is anyone’s guess, none of them have done themselves any favours this winter...maybe if someone like Bess has a good start to the summer he might get a look in

I don't disagree with much of that but I cannot see too many changes - it is the way of the selectors who are loathe to change.

Also Bayliss is quoted as saying: "(But) I don't think there's anyone at home putting their hand up at the moment and saying come and pick me."

But there again there are members in the test team whose form is not screaming carry on selecting me either.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Yeah I don't disagree much with all that , Goose.

Seems England have a lot of players who are "just about" good enough ...but apart from the aging stars only Root Bairstow and Stokes are totally convincing at the moment.

Will help a lot when Stokes is fully fit : gives them a real fifth bowler who can have a genuine impact - I don't think he was up to doing it in this match even had they tried to bowl him more.  

Moeen took wickets in the summer. Made runs too.  Had a rotten tour but I think he's a bit better than that ...which is not to say he is the answer to the spinner question. Shoot out between him and Leach for now ?

Surely law of averages says a top batsman is about due to surface ?

Yeah I think it’s a shootout for a lot of spots for the summer Alfie - Bayliss has intimated that in his post match interview too. The only real certainties are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson for me. Malan will likely be in unless he has a horrific start to the summer. Rest of the spots are up for grabs! Guys like Gubbins, Hameed, Lawrence, Clarke, Northeast, Hain, Burns all have a chance to stake a claim in the batting department. Bowling options are more limited however I’d say, third seamer is a shootout between TRJ, Wood and Woakes imo. Spinner is anyone’s guess, none of them have done themselves any favours this winter...maybe if someone like Bess has a good start to the summer he might get a look in

Yeah again. The ''just about'' good enough rating seems right. In the last Test, six England players chalked up a half-century but only one of those went on to make a ton. A couple of wickets in the second NZ innings for both Leach and Wood - a couple of wickets should never be sniffed at but a bit more was probably sought, particularly following a nil return for both first dig.

One disappointing aspect - which I don't think has been mentioned here - was that too many catches were spilled. Not sitters but it's a part of the game where we need to be at our best if we are to help our bowlers and especially those coming into the side. Stoneman has grounded too many at Test level and only taken one whilst, like his batting, his catching in the Championship is more effective - not sure why although I doubt it's concentration, more likely to be confidence .

I definitely don't solely blame Bayliss for our difficulties in Tests away from home this winter. There are more than a few factors at play. However, I do find him deeply unimpressive and uninspiring when it comes to interviews.

With a new national selector (expected) to be appointed (I'm glad Giles turned it down) in the near future, I wouldn't be amazed to see whoever he is wanting to stamp his own mark on things. That's more to do with human nature than cricket but if it proves to be the case, we might have one surprise in store this summer.

Jetty wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:The Stokes stuff was a bit baffling. He seemed to be being protected from tiredness: there’s a bit of a break now!

Stokes, Ali Wood and Woakes all off to the IPL which starts on the 7th April.

Why on Earth do England care about his IPL prep?!

Also, two match series? Not a point in that

Surrey have announced the ECB's confirmation that Stoneman is available to play in the first four Championship matches before the first Test against Pakistan in late May.

The absence of any enforced rest suggests the ECB are keen to see how he gets on in these dometic fixtures before choosing him for the next Test, if indeed that is what they decide.

Foakes is similarly available for Surrey although it would have been staggering if he hadn't been freed up to play after a winter on the bench,

--it was a great game...so full of drama
In the end NZ was the better side.......polished off Eng in the last session of T1 and held on through the last session in T2

Who would have thought Ish sodhi ..... thoroughly ineffective as a bowler, poor replacement for Astle would play.....& would bat the inning of his life and the hero of a great escape......and a small applause for Wagner's 100+ ball inning too

--Jack leach would probably not get another match in his career bowling with all 10 around the bat
The pitch didn't deteriorate...but flattened instead giving him not much.

On a closer look.....he reminds of an Indian SLA..... Rahul Sanghvi......was a good spinner whose career coincided with Kumble and Bhajji
Like Sanghvi.....Leach with his shortish action..... puts a lot of arm in the delivery i.e gives a rip flexing / rotating arm muscles
This gives him drift in the air and also many of his deliveries dip on to the batsman......and so he can deceive in the air
On pitches where there is more spin....he will be more difficult to handle....one Eng should persist with.

--So why couldn't Eng close it out?
Because IMO Broad & Anderson are not the same bowlers in the 2nd/ 3rd spells or in longer spells....aren't used to bowling many intense overs throughout the test.

And Wood was just too short.....again.....hasn't figured art of working out wickets

and Stokes wasn't bowling
& wasn't much in the pitch for spinners

The big positive...stokes is back and will eventually bowl, Malan, Vince, Stoneman are all getting runs

--NZ are a good test match side......their 3 main seamers aren't overworked...and hence keep going through test cricket with relatively low injury rates...and with high intensities
Grandhomme & BJ Watlig lends balance with telling contributions
Latham & Wiliamson are the backbone of their batting.
As I recall.....they went back with a drawn series when they last visited Eng