New Zealand v England Test Series

First topic message reminder :

The first test of a largely ignored series has started.

England 6/1 at the moment. Would you believe Alastair Cook is out nicking to slip? You would? Quite...

Speaking as a James Vince fan i do think he deserved a chance in these matches as sort of a 'last chance saloon' audition. He showed glimpses in the Ashes series.

All the talk is about the bowling... We've just been bowled out for 58!
I am not sure we need spin in these games. I would be tempted to go:

Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Vince
Livingstone
Bairstow
Overton
Broad
Wood
Anderson

With bowling contributions from Root/Malan/Vince/Livingstone

If Stokes isn't fit enough to bowl, should he be in the side? (Right now)

jimbohammers wrote:Speaking as a James Vince fan i do think he deserved a chance in these matches as sort of a 'last chance saloon' audition. He showed glimpses in the Ashes series.

All the talk is about the bowling... We've just been bowled out for 58!
I am not sure we need spin in these games. I would be tempted to go:

Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Vince
Livingstone
Bairstow
Overton
Broad
Wood
Anderson

With bowling contributions from Root/Malan/Vince/Livingstone

If Stokes isn't fit enough to bowl, should he be in the side? (Right now)

Over Vince? Id say yes. He has a better test batting record and is a better fielder, Vince has more POTENTIAL but if we are talking strictly right now and short term one off Id back Stokes to make a telling contribution over Vince. IMO theres a stronger case for Livingstone over Stokes as a genuine bat and genuine number 3. 
Im far from convinced that Stokes is a top 5 bat, but then England are determined to keep Bairtsow at 7 come hell or high water so we are kinda stuck having to shoehorn anyone whos available to fill the gaping holes in the top 6.

The side youve posted up isnt on the cards, Livingstone has been left ouit of the matchday squad.

Cricinfo is suggesting
1 Alastair Cook, 2 Mark Stoneman, 3 James Vince, 4 Joe Root, 5 Dawid Malan, 6 Ben Stokes, 7 Jonny Bairstow (wk), 8 Craig Overton/Jack Leach, 9 Mark Wood, 10 Stuart Broad, 11 James Anderson

Theres then a choice between having a ridiculously long tail or no specialist spinner to accomodate a pretty average medium pacer who can bat a bit.

With a non bowling Stokes England look pretty weak any way you shake it.

Woakes has been worse than Broad by a distance...

Overton is worse than both though

Gooseberry wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Really surprised they’ve dropped Woakes and kept Overton - has Woakes really been worse than Broad all winter? Has Overton ultimately shown much with the ball to justify keeping his slot? I’m less than convinced (albeit I recognise Woakes has been poor with the ball too)

Me too Olly, but it may be that they have a specific theory regarding Overtons bowling and certain batsmen. Woakes has been poor away from England with the ball all career, not just this winter. Maybe as well they feel hes burnt out as a 3 format player. I dunno, Im fishing for reasons a bit but I was surprised when they went for Overton over Wood. Its pretty clear someone rates him very highly, or at leas that they dont want to be bumping young players in an out the side without giving them a "fair run".

The return of Vince over Livingstone is equally eyebrow raising.

Let it never be said that England arent willing to  go against the tide of fan opinion! You do have to put some trust in the England leadership knowing more than we do, but then this is the same side that put Butler at 7 as a speciliast batsmen in tests and genuinely though Dawson, Ansari and Dawson were test class spinners (awaits Guilfords explosion of rage).


As for final test XI make up they seem to have given themselves options dependant on Stokes' ability to bowl and how much of a role spinner might play. If Stokes can bowl then they can accomodate Leach and Vince, that to me is probably best case. Its possible of course in that scenario that Wood would also replace Overton (hell even Broad as noted by Olly, since hes been wasting the new ball so much).
If Stokes Cant bowl then the only way I see to bring in the additional batsman is to not pick Leach. But if it looks like spin could play a big part then having the specilist spinner surely trumps selecting a failed batsman.

Sorry to disappoint, Goose, but no explosion there. Not really even much of a rumble. Dawson and Ansari are / were not test spinners although Ansari perhaps had the intelligence (I'm referring to cricket intelligence here although he is brainbox anyway) and the willingness to learn to become not too far off one. What I would say in support of both and the selectors choosing them was that they helped the balance of the side. Alec Stewart still bemoans the loss of balance to the Surrey team caused by Ansari quitting the game.

As for the England team and as posted above, cricinfo have Overton or Leach being the one to miss out from the 12 chosen. I would be more cautious from this distance and say that only 2 out of Overton, Leach and Wood will play.

As I posted the other day, Wood's selection is fine and good as he brings extra pace but only provided the selectors are satisfied as to his control and fitness. That's a sizeable proviso, especially his fitness.

My hunch is that they'll take a punt on Wood lasting the distance and stick with Overton. I'm not quite as anti Leach as Olly but I'm unconvinced that we should pick Somerset's second best spinner (Bess is the one, I think, to watch more). I don't expect the Christchurch track to offer much to any spinners. I note that Astle drops out for New Zealand with injury (bad luck on him as he came in for Santner and did ok in polishing us off second dig in Auckland) and Sodhi replaces him. Unlike Goose, I quite like Sodhi - be interesting to see how he gets on, although I suspect that if he does get wickets it'll be more through guile and persistence than the surface.

Going back to England's team, I'm assuming Stokes won't be able to bowl. However, if he can, then he becomes the 4th seamer and there's no need for Overton with Leach free to make his debut.

I've no issue with Vince being preferred over Livingstone. Far to say (sorry, Jimbo!), Vince hasn't convinced at top level but all reports I saw had it being a choice between him and Overton for the final spot at the Eden Park test. As Vince was ahead of Livingstone in the pecking order then, I don't see why that should have changed. Vitally important for Vince though that he takes this opportunity - otherwise, I suspect it will be the last he gets.

As Goose might say, there are so many potential wrong answers!  What really matters is that the eleven who take the field play well and consistently over the 5 days. As always the case.

Going out now. Join you guys for the first session.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So england have confirmed Woakes and Moeen are dropped and no Livingstone - Stokes unlikely to bowl...

My guess is

Cook
Stoneman
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Overton
Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

Which just seems like possibly the longest tail ever. Unless they go

That would be a long tail. Overton is probably a 9 and Wood and Broad 10s (oh for when Broad coudl bat). Still remember though teh summer of 99 when we had Caddick, Mullally, Tufnell and Giddins in the same team (protected by Irani at 7!)

Easy stuff, everyone. Pile on New Zealand at 7/5 to dismantle this shambles of an England cricket side.

Duty281 wrote:Easy stuff, everyone. Pile on New Zealand at 7/5 to dismantle this shambles of an England cricket side.

Where are you getting 7/5 odds Duty?!

Thought more about this and in view of the likely pitch conditions (this ground seems to be pretty unhelpful to spinners ) I'd expect Leach to carry the drinks.
Not shocked at Vince : he is arguably more of a natural three than Livingstone (not suggesting he is "the answer" ; just the least worst option). Think the batting order looks better with Root back at his preferred four , Malan , Stokes , Bairstow...then Overton at eight seems reasonable.
As to the bowling : With Wood in for short sharp bursts , a workhorse is needed : Overton (who does actually have a decent short ball despite lack of great pace) probably appeals as a fair choice over the out of fed ball form Woakes who is perhaps too similar anyway to the opening pair. Even if Stokes could bowl I'm not sure I'd trust him and Wood as the back up pair - too likely one or other would limp out of action at some point.
Root and Malan are both probably as likely as Moeen to get spin wickets...

Whatever : the key will be batting properly this time. Hope they can

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Easy stuff, everyone. Pile on New Zealand at 7/5 to dismantle this shambles of an England cricket side.

Where are you getting 7/5  odds Duty?!

888Sport and Unibet.

The ECB have looked at Cricket Australia upping the ante over tribe past week and gone “heck no, we’re the biggest clowns at this rodeo” and are now going to sue George Dobell for defamation because he’s written some not nice things about Graves. What utter nonsense

New Zealand win the toss and bowl. Interesting call. Looks like a beautiful batting wicket on a fine day.

Judging by that lineup they better hope Stokes can bowl!

Joe Root probably delighted he didn’t have to make a decision then!

If New Zealand take a couple of early wickets, it’ll be interesting to see how England respond.

3 changes, Vince gets a chance, Leach makes his debut and Wood comes in.

Interesting choice from Williamson to bowl first.

England now being made favourites. 

Trent Boult with a delicious first over.

Stoneman all over the shop.

Bout and Southee starting well here, could have had a couple of wickets already. Boult with 2 crackers to Stoneman

6/1. The only surprise being it's not Stoneman! Boult deserves that after a great start.

Trent Boult is incredible

By the sounds of it we should select Simon Doull and Scott Styris to open the batting as they seem to have all the simple answers to everything....

“How much has he missed it by?”

It’s angling in towards leg stump and swings late to knock out off stump Doull you clown - you try playing that!

Tbf, when you are as far back as Cook was and not getting forward to a ball that full, you are giving about as much physical chance to swing like it did!

Lots of chatter about the end of Cook's England career - and whilst its true to say he's coming to the end, who on earth are England going to replace him with?!

They still haven't replaced Strauss!

Duty281 wrote:Lots of chatter about the end of Cook's England career - and whilst its true to say he's coming to the end, who on earth are England going to replace him with?!

They still haven't replaced Strauss!

Haha, exactly that. Cook does seem to be in a decline, but he racked up two double centuries in 2017 and how many openers is it now? Compton, Robson, Trott, Carberry, Lyth, Root, Hales, Stoneman, Jennings, Duckett, Ali... Probably missing a few!

I wouldn’t be against moving Cook to 3 or down the order personally - he’s definitely got enough rope to continue going on for a while yet anyways, as Dizzle and Duty point out we’re not awash with openers or batsmen at the moment!

Didn't realise that was a rule quoted by Reiffel as third ump there - looking at the LBW saying the original decision was not out, so umpires call would have remained not out. Did not realise that was the rule now!

Decision overturned on review for Vince. Missed his bat by a mile

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I wouldn’t be against moving Cook to 3 or down the order personally - he’s definitely got enough rope to continue going on for a while yet anyways, as Dizzle and Duty point out we’re not awash with openers or batsmen at the moment!

Hi Olly...something I have considered myself : if another opener (Hameed ? ) was looking OK , Cook at three might indeed be a viable option. Takes away a bit of the pressure , especially when he has to go back in second innings after a long spell in the field...

But either way his lack of footwork concerns me. Too many "caught on the crease" dismissals lately. In fairness he's copped some great balls ! Agree he will get more rope : my fear is he might decide he's had enough. Runs in second innings here would be nice.

Vince goes...review won't save him this time : another start - another failure to make it count. NZ on top.

There goes Vince, ending his test career quicker than I hoped

Actually that was very close ! Vince maybe slightly unfortunate to be given out on field then as it was only just kissing the bails - on another day he gets away with that. But for all his graceful stroke play that Vince defence just doesn't convince at this level.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:There goes Vince, ending his test career quicker than I hoped

Alfie - Vince getting within one innings to the end anyway. He's firmly in the last chance saloon and only has his farewell drink to come unless he can do something special. Jimbo - your man is so frustrating, he plays the odd cover drive beautifully but just can't put an innings together.

Meanwhile, Stoneman hasn't been that convincing (Chinese cut (can I still say that?) second ball for a boundary when he could easily have played on) but he's still there.

Interesting selection today : honestly didn't expect that XI - though I'm certainly not against it. Presumably they are confident Stokes will be able to bowl at least a bit ; and at least they do have a number of part time options to help out if NZ bat long.
Drawback being that Anderson and Broad are still looking at doing a lot of stock bowling as well as providing the main threat , unless Leach is able to properly lock up an end in his first game...

And the tail still looks a bit flimsy. At least they have the full seven bats on duty.

Morning , guildford... Yes Vince has presumably only had this game because there wasn't a viable alternative number three on tour. So indeed he needs a hundred second time around or they're probably looking elsewhere.

Stoneman into the twenties...

Interesting Williamson chose to bowl first ? Bit there for the bowlers this morning , yes ; but if England can build a couple of partnerships he might regret it later ... Think they'll be glad of an extra days rest after bowling so long in the first game.
This ground doesn't have a history of late spin , I understand , so batting last may not be a big issue - though I'm not sure how many five day games have been played here...Leach will be hopeful at least.

Hi again Alfie - don't know if you get the same comms as here but a New Zealander (? Smith) made the fair point a short while ago that our batting line up shouldn't be too shoddy when you have Bairstow at 7. Even with a weak looking tail, that remains valid and it's down to that top 7 to put the runs on the board.

We have variety in the bowling that some here have been demanding (not unreasonably). However, do we have the quality and strength? That;s my major concern.

alfie wrote:Morning , guildford... Yes Vince has presumably only had this game because there wasn't a viable alternative number three on tour. So indeed he needs a hundred second time around or they're probably looking elsewhere.

Stoneman into the twenties...

Interesting Williamson chose to bowl first ?  Bit there for the bowlers this morning , yes ; but if England can build a couple of partnerships he might regret it later ... Think they'll be glad of an extra days rest after bowling so long in the first game.
This ground doesn't have a history of late spin , I understand , so batting last may not be a big issue - though I'm not sure how many five day games have been played here...Leach will be hopeful at least.

Hi Alfie - I joined tv coverage a bit late (Thursday night is my pub night with the boys (ok, other old gits)) and the comms were suggesting then that Williamson had made a mistake in bowling. However, given we had lost Cook and were 20/1 at that time, I thought that was unduly harsh on the New Zealand skipper.

I think this is the fifth test at this ground. My Kiwi friends were sure it wouldn't be a track for the spinners when they (pretty politely) dismissed my suggestion last month of playing both Santner (he was fit then) and Sodhi here.

Stoneman up to 27 and here comes Sodhi ....

I at least like Stoneman’s endeavour. He is at least trying to see off the new ball. But then I always preferred Collingwood to Bell, so application is clearly something I want to see.

Vince to me is what Michael Vaughan would be if he had been s***

Poor Alistair Cook.   So far in the NZ Test Series he has scored 5, 2, 2.

No name Bertie wrote:Poor Andrew Cook.   So far in the NZ Test Series he has scored 5, 2, 2.

Sir Andrew Cook CBE is a British industrialist, philanthropist, historian and author. He is the owner and Chairman of William Cook Holdings Limited, one of Europe's leading steel and engineering groups.

It was a risky decision by the selectors and it hasn’t added the steel to the batting lineup like they hoped. Probably best just to pick cricketers from now on

guildfordbat wrote:Hi again Alfie - don't know if you get the same comms as here but a New Zealander (? Smith) made the fair point a short while ago that our batting line up shouldn't be too shoddy when you have Bairstow at 7. Even with a weak looking tail, that remains valid and it's down to that top 7 to put the runs on the board.

We have variety in the bowling that some here have been demanding (not unreasonably). However, do we have the quality and strength? That;s my major concern.

(1). Fair point. Agreed. If they bat as required - not 23/9 ! - the likes of Broad and Wood should be able to add a few tail end runs anyway.
(2) That is something we will discover : chiefly whether or not Leach can translate his CC form from Taunton to International touring...but also whether Wood can really show he has what it takes in Tests rather than just looking lively. He faces big competition from a fit TRJ back home in summer...

70/2 at lunch : honors even ?

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Hi again Alfie - don't know if you get the same comms as here but a New Zealander (? Smith) made the fair point a short while ago that our batting line up shouldn't be too shoddy when you have Bairstow at 7. Even with a weak looking tail, that remains valid and it's down to that top 7 to put the runs on the board.

We have variety in the bowling that some here have been demanding (not unreasonably). However, do we have the quality and strength? That;s my major concern.

(1). Fair point. Agreed. If they bat as required - not 23/9 ! - the likes of Broad and Wood should be able to add a few tail end runs anyway.
(2) That is something we will discover : chiefly whether or not Leach can translate his CC form from Taunton to International touring...but also whether Wood can really show he has what it takes in Tests rather than just looking lively.  He faces big competition from a fit TRJ back home in summer...

70/2 at lunch : honors even ?

Lloyd - and, Alfie, you know I like him when he doesn't play the fool - was saying it was even at lunch. Given that New Zealand took two wickets ad also kept our scoring in check, I would give it narrowly to them.

I go along with Dolph in liking Stoneman's endeavour and application. That's partly why I thought he would do better than he has so far at this level.

NZ not getting it right with DRS this time...wasted their second review with an lbw try against Root. Always looked to have pitched outside leg - though in fact it was closer than I thought according to hawk eye.
Guess it shows how much they think Root's wicket is the key.

Stoneman resisting short stuff well so far...fifty stand up

There goes Joe, pad onto stump

But no problem for NZ as Southee goes straight through Root ! Big gap - skittled !

He'd been looking so good too...that one came a bit out of the blue. Good ball ; but a disappointing miss by the England skipper who was surely well enough set.

Stoneman nearly runs himself out now Come on chaps - get a grip .

! Malan lbw for 0 ..Bad to worse.

Problems for England.

Four down, looking ropey after a decent start.

At 94/4 this is looking like a potential disaster. I know NZ are bowling pretty well but to see four of England's top five bowled or lbw to swing bowling ...

And now Stoneman caught at slip !

They've lost the plot.

Malan gets a golden duck and Stoneman goes a few balls later. 94/5 and the wheels have come tumbling down the hill after Rot

Three wickets in nine balls.

Will be lucky to scrape 200 now. Nowhere near good enough on this track.

Unless David Warner punches Adam Gilchrist, I think people will notice your awful batting this week boys