Wales Summer Tour

Original opening post answered, changed to tour thread...:

So Welsh summer squad has been anounced as :-

Wales squad

Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets) (25 Caps), Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (18 Caps), Elliot Dee (Dragons) (7 Caps), Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (2 Caps), Rhodri Jones (Ospreys) (16 Caps), Samson Lee (Scarlets) (38 Caps), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues) (2 Caps), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs) (31 Caps), Adam Beard (Ospreys) (2 Caps), Bradley Davies (Ospreys) (62 Caps), Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues) (4 Caps), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (*uncapped), Cory Hill (Dragons) (15 Caps), James Davies (Scarlets) (1 Cap), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues) (6 Caps), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) (20 Caps), Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Blues) (8 Caps).

Backs: Aled Davies (Scarlets) (8 Caps),  Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (32 Caps), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues) (*uncapped), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues) (15 Caps), Rhys Patchell (Scarlets) (8 Caps), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (6 Caps), Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (4 Caps), Scott Williams (Scarlets) (55 Caps), Josh Adams (Worcester Warriors) (2 Caps), Hallam Amos (Dragons) (15 Caps), George North (Ospreys) (73 Caps), Tom Prydie (Scarlets) (5 Caps).

Red indicated "call-up".

Withdrawn from Original Named Squad or replaced due to injury:  Luke Charteris (Bath) (74 Caps), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues) (11 Caps), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (17 Caps), Steff Evans (Scarlets) (9 Caps), Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (8 Caps).


2018 summer tour schedule
Saturday, 2 June KO 2200hrs BST [1700hrs local]

South Africa 20 - 22 Wales (Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium, Washington, USA)

Team details:

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Saturday, 9 June KO 2040hrs BST [1640hrs local]

Argentina 10 - 23 Wales (San Juan del Bicentenario Stadium, San Juan)

Team details:

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Saturday, 16 June KO 2040hrs BST [1640hrs local]

Argentina 12 - 30 Wales (Estadio Brigadier López, Santa Fe)

Team details:

TV Coverage reported by WOL to be Channel 4, in their first outing into Rugby coverage before they take on some European coverage next season.

So... thread open for discussion on the Wales Summer tour 2018.


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So 3 out of 3. Great Summer Tour, have we learned anything, are Wales and England "Poles apart"...

Never keen to use WOL as a source, but all I could find:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-matches-set-screened-14604240

C4 are screening the Wales matches for the first time...EVER

Shall we use this thread as the general discussion, or is it just about the question at the top from No.9?!

If so:

Ellis Jenkins and Cory Hill to co-captain the tour. Interesting choices.
Prydie and Charteris back in. Tomos Williams (Blues) the only new cap.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44037123

Here's the schedule:

2018 summer tour schedule

Saturday, 2 June
South Africa v Wales (Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium, Washington, USA)

Saturday, 9 June
Argentina v Wales (San Juan del Bicentenario Stadium, San Juan)

Saturday, 16 June
Argentina v Wales (Estadio Brigadier López, Santa Fe)

Cheers guys... Well, C4 is a first. Hope they don't do as some of the comments on the WOL and go to ad breaks during the game.

As for using this thread to discuss the tour... Feel free, makes sense, I'll edit the OP to include squad and tour details...

Good work No.9

Considering the resting of the Welsh Lions (most of), this inst a bad squad, for what, wont be an easy tour to Argentina.

Yeah, I’m buoyed somewhat by the 6 nations performance of some players not considered (at the time) as first choice players. In years past if we lost some of the first choice players then we were doomed, and I feared the same for this 6N. But we showed that we’ve got a bit of depth and can cover losses to a certain extent. In fact, I think we looked worse when we rushed some of the players such as Biggar and North back! But that could have just been their rustiness (which I guess is/was a reason not to rush them back).

So I agree. The squad looks good even without some of the ‘big name’ Lions players. Hope we’re competitive and can get 2 wins out of 3 (but 3 would be better obviously).

After looking at this squad, I cannot believe how much experience we have in the front row with such young players.

Samson Lee 25yrs old 38 caps
Rob Evans 26yrs old 25 caps
Nick Smith 24yrs old 18 caps
Tomas Francis 26yrs old 31 caps

We then have Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Ryan Elias and Elliot Dee as the novices, but they all have exposure.

I do not think any other country in World Rugby has the strength in depth that Wales has in the front row with such a young average age.

LordDowlais wrote:After looking at this squad, I cannot believe how much experience we have in the front row with such young players.

Samson Lee 25yrs old 38 caps
Rob Evans 26yrs old 25 caps
Nick Smith 24yrs old 18 caps
Tomas Francis 26yrs old 31 caps

We then have Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Ryan Elias and Elliot Dee as the novices, but they all have exposure.

I do not think any other country in World Rugby has the strength in depth that Wales has in the front row with squch a young average age.

Not sure I agree with that bit. Not saying you’re definitely wrong, but I’d need to give it some thought! Seems a big claim!

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:After looking at this squad, I cannot believe how much experience we have in the front row with such young players.

Samson Lee 25yrs old 38 caps
Rob Evans 26yrs old 25 caps
Nick Smith 24yrs old 18 caps
Tomas Francis 26yrs old 31 caps

We then have Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Ryan Elias and Elliot Dee as the novices, but they all have exposure.

I do not think any other country in World Rugby has the strength in depth that Wales has in the front row with squch a young average age.

Not sure I agree with that bit. Not saying you’re definitely wrong, but I’d need to give it some thought! Seems a big claim!

I have thought about it.

Is there another country in the world who has that strength in depth, where all the players have been capped and are below 30yrs of age ? South Africa and New Zealand perhaps, but I do not think that they have as much players below the age of 30 with the amount of caps Samson Lee, Nicky Smith, Tomas Francis and Rob Evans has.

Add to that Kristian Dacey who is only 28yrs old and has a few caps, and Ken Owens, the old man of the front row at 31 yrs old. I cannot think of another country who has capped as many players at such a young age.

Lots of caps does not always mean players are good. After all Joe Worsley was at one time the 5th most capped England player and is still in the top 10.

I do not see enough of most of those guys you name often enough to judge, but Francis is an extremely limited player (imo).

Pretty good squad, considering what we are missing.

Great for Cory Hill. I’d expect him to be the captain come actual team selection, given the backrow will probably be Shingler, Navidi and Moriarty. People were still questioning his importance, in the Six Nations this season so it’s great to see him gain further recognition for his leadership.

Some players like Owen Lane are unfortunate to miss out too.

The squad is a lot better than I expected. The only notable absentees who aren't injured are Owens, AWJ, Faletau and Biggar? I think that's a bit risky, just the two hookers.

Still unsure as to why he's selecting Aled Davies.

Anyway, anyone like to pick a matchday squad from that? Hopefully we're going all guns blazing out in DC.

We seem a bit light at standout full backs too. I guess Amos, Adams, Prydie and Anscombe are all pretty comfortable there. But I don’t see them as out and out fullbacks really.

I’ll have a go at a first XV in bit.

I would go something like:

Rob Evans
Elliot Dee
Samson Lee
Bradley Davies
Cory Hill
Shingler
Navidi
Moriarty
G Davies
Patchell
Adams
Parkes
Scott Williams
Steff Evans
Gareth Anscombe

Given more choice I might go for Anscombe at 10, but that leaves us missing an experienced 15. Maybe swap Anscombe and Patchell? Maybe Amos at FB?

Back row was tricky. I appreciate Moriarty is not an out and out 8, but I think with those 3, and Navidi being so good on the ground, they can cover the 3 back row roles quite well between them.

Wing - think we need to get Adams some more game time. Tough on North, but maybe he’d be on the bench for a decent run out in the second half.

George North to be used in the centre on tour according to Warren G (and Nate Dogg).

Not going to do much for his tendency to get concussions though. Surely there’s more collisions in midfield?! Not sure his defense is up to it either (always been a bit of an arm flapper). But in attack he could be a very good there I feel (outside centre probably).

I just noticed Halfpenny isn't here either. So, light at 10 and hooker. This might have been a good opportunity for Jarrod Evans to come into the squad, and he seems to be better than Anscombe right now - speaking of which I can actually see him at 10 with Patchell at 15. I rate Patchell as the much better 15 but they'll probably interchange anyway. No Owen Williams is also another strange one given our slight crisis at 10 in the 6N.

North at centre is stupid. He can be considered injury cover there but give Watkin the game time first. As Jenkins is the co-captain I can see him in the starting lineup.

Evans, Dee, Lee, Hill, BBBD, Shingler, Jenkins, Navidi - Davies, Anscombe, Evans, Parkes, Williams, North, Patchell.
Elias, Wyn Jones/Smith, Francis, Beard/Charteris, Moriarty/Cubby, Tom Williams, Watkin, Amos.

Good attacking team but really need to front up against the big boys that they'll be facing. Parkes the fly-half cover. Gats really needs to call up someone.

Seems like Amos will be the 15. I’d expect Anscombe to start 10.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see North start over Scott Williams. I know Gatland wants to do it at some point and I don’t exactly get the impression Gatland is a great Williams fan.

So the English based players have had the shepherds crook - Charteris, Francis and Adams. I can understand adhering strictly to the international window in the autumn internationals (i.e. mid-season), but now.... hmm. Those players haven’t played since the start of May! F*ck ‘em (PRL). What are the clubs realistically going to be doing with these players in June?! Nothing. Exeter should be happy that Francis will be getting some fitness in over the summer, rather than the PRL forcing him onto the sofa as they’ve done now! He’s more likely to turn up to pre-season at Exeter 50 stone overweight now! Swines!

Nevermind.

Ironically the general calls from England had been towards greater periods of time off.

The WRU & Gats knew the rules beforehand & this situation continuously crops up when Wales search for more coffers outside the Int. window.
How can Gats be ‘disappointed’ that they weren’t released when it happens very bloody year.
It’s probably a tongue in cheek comment to put pressure on players to play in Wales.
Would Josh Adams had got the opportunity of representing Wales if he hadn’t played for Wors.?

Great news for Hewitt and Wainwright, two stand out young players in a very poor team.

I think Hewitt has been on the radar for a while though, hopefully he can stay injury free.

The Oracle wrote:So the English based players have had the shepherds crook - Charteris, Francis and Adams. I can understand adhering strictly to the international window in the autumn internationals (i.e. mid-season), but now.... hmm. Those players haven’t played since the start of May! F*ck ‘em (PRL). What are the clubs realistically going to be doing with these players in June?! Nothing. Exeter should be happy that Francis will be getting some fitness in over the summer, rather than the PRL forcing him onto the sofa as they’ve done now! He’s more likely to turn up to pre-season at Exeter 50 stone overweight now! Swines!

Nevermind.

It sets a precedent. The WRU are the ones who are breaking the window rules here. Not Prem rugby. Good on the English clubs for holding firm.

It seems like Gatland is just using it to prove the point about playing in Wales, knowing that PRL wouldn't release them

From the players point of view, its obviously disappointing

BamBam wrote:It seems like Gatland is just using it to prove the point about playing in Wales, knowing that PRL wouldn't release them

From the players point of view, its obviously disappointing

Well no, it's because Wales couldn't play SA at any other time. The 3rd weekend is designated for a 3rd match but Wales wanted to play their "3rd" game against a SANZAR team, and because they are so greedy (and wanted to not disappoint their Under Armour sponsors) they agreed for it to be before the window starts not during. No sympathy for WRU.

The players based in England will be gutted. But they should blame WRU. Nobody else.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:So the English based players have had the shepherds crook - Charteris, Francis and Adams. I can understand adhering strictly to the international window in the autumn internationals (i.e. mid-season), but now.... hmm. Those players haven’t played since the start of May! F*ck ‘em (PRL). What are the clubs realistically going to be doing with these players in June?! Nothing. Exeter should be happy that Francis will be getting some fitness in over the summer, rather than the PRL forcing him onto the sofa as they’ve done now! He’s more likely to turn up to pre-season at Exeter 50 stone overweight now! Swines!

Nevermind.

It sets a precedent. The WRU are the ones who are breaking the window rules here. Not Prem rugby. Good on the English clubs for holding firm.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

BamBam wrote:It seems like Gatland is just using it to prove the point about playing in Wales, knowing that PRL wouldn't release them

From the players point of view, its obviously disappointing

Well no, it's because Wales couldn't play SA at any other time. The 3rd weekend is designated for a 3rd match but Wales wanted to play their "3rd" game against a SANZAR team, and because they are so greedy (and wanted to not disappoint their Under Armour sponsors) they agreed for it to be before the window starts not during. No sympathy for WRU.

The players based in England will be gutted. But they should blame WRU. Nobody else.

And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

munkian wrote:

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

There's a point when maximizing income crosses the line into greed. That's my opinion. This happens every single year and the one common denominator....the WRU.

If a test nation doesn't play test matches within the allocated time-frame then they are bound to run into problems.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

There's a point when maximizing income crosses the line into greed. That's my opinion. This happens every single year and the one common denominator....the WRU.

If a test nation doesn't play test matches within the allocated time-frame then they are bound to run into problems.

As far as I know, the only reason this is out of the time frame is because its the only date we could have a third game against a Sanzar team.

You seem to be very angry about something that doesn't affect you in the slightest ?

munkian wrote:]

As far as I know, the only reason this is out of the time frame is because its the only date we could have a third game against a Sanzar team.

You seem to be very angry about something that doesn't affect you in the slightest ?

It's something I feel very strongly about. The test game impinges far too much on the domestic game as it is, without more test matches spilling over out of the window.

That says more about the lack of a global season than anything else.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

There's a point when maximizing income crosses the line into greed. That's my opinion. This happens every single year and the one common denominator....the WRU.

If a test nation doesn't play test matches within the allocated time-frame then they are bound to run into problems.

Oh.. so the RFU hasnt crossed this line into greed then has it... The BaaBaa game is not greed as the RFU has an agreement..

What a load of double standards...

No9 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

There's a point when maximizing income crosses the line into greed. That's my opinion. This happens every single year and the one common denominator....the WRU.

If a test nation doesn't play test matches within the allocated time-frame then they are bound to run into problems.

Oh.. so the RFU hasnt crossed this line into greed then has it... The BaaBaa game is not greed as the RFU has an agreement..

What a load of double standards...

So what England players based outside England have not been allowed to play for England?

WRU wants to have it's cake and eat it - RFU knows exactly how much cake it's got.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

My rant is at your holier than though attitude. The greed you talk about is evident. Its the PRL's greed to fine players for playing an international instead of them siting on their backsides. The fact that England playing extra internationals is OK and not greed, where as the WRU are just money grabbing b'tards...

Apply some consistency, rather than just attacking all things Welsh.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

munkian wrote:

So is calling the WRU 'greedy' - we are a tiny rugby nation and need all the income we can get to keep our players in Wales.

There's a point when maximizing income crosses the line into greed. That's my opinion. This happens every single year and the one common denominator....the WRU.

If a test nation doesn't play test matches within the allocated time-frame then they are bound to run into problems.

Oh.. so the RFU hasnt crossed this line into greed then has it... The BaaBaa game is not greed as the RFU has an agreement..

What a load of double standards...

So what England players based outside England have not been allowed to play for England?

WRU wants to have it's cake and eat it - RFU knows exactly how much cake it's got.

Which ones... I believe you'll find that its more to do with the RFU not selecting players playing outside of England (with exceptions) if they dont have to, rather than them not being allowed to play by their clubs organising body.

Your simply defending the rule when it suits and overlooking it if it doesnt.

Your not a referee are you, as your lack of consistency is a top quality for today's officials.

No9 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

My rant is at your holier than though attitude. The greed you talk about is evident. Its the PRL's greed to fine players for playing an international instead of them siting on their backsides. The fact that England playing extra internationals is OK and not greed, where as the WRU are just money grabbing b'tards...

Apply some consistency, rather than just attacking all things Welsh.

Attacking all things Welsh?


I'm Welsh.


England don't play players that aren't playing in their country. Wales have a smaller player base to they do...therefore England know that the situation isn't going to arise. The WRU should have known that the English clubs had zero choice in the matter - they'd risk being fined and their player release deal beign scuppered with RFU.

Check out the number of England and Wales out of window games in the last 10 years. E.g.: It's in the RFU / PRL deal that England play once out of window in Autumn every 2 years - Wales play an out of window game in the Autumn every single year. (The only home nation that does that.) Pure greed.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

My rant is at your holier than though attitude. The greed you talk about is evident. Its the PRL's greed to fine players for playing an international instead of them siting on their backsides. The fact that England playing extra internationals is OK and not greed, where as the WRU are just money grabbing b'tards...

Apply some consistency, rather than just attacking all things Welsh.

Attacking all things Welsh?


I'm Welsh.


England don't play players that aren't playing in their country. Wales have a smaller player base to they do...therefore England know that the situation isn't going to arise. The WRU should have known that the English clubs had zero choice in the matter - they'd risk being fined and their player release deal beign scuppered with RFU.

Check out the number of England and Wales out of window games in the last 10 years. E.g.: It's in the RFU / PRL deal that England play once out of window in Autumn every 2 years - Wales play an out of window game in the Autumn every single year. (The only home nation that does that.) Pure greed.

Scotland is playing a 4th AI this year against us.

Is that because they are greedy ? Or is it because they are also a small rugby country with a fraction of the RFU's budget ?

All unions want to make money. As a correction the prl haven't to my knowledge fined a player for playing outside the window as it's completely the club's choice to release.

The have fined clubs for breaching signed agreements.

What makes this episode tiresome, is that the Premiership has made its stance abundantly clear, over several years, and yet there always seems to be surprise when they don't allow players to be released outside the window.

It's not up to the club, and it's not up to the player: it's a joint Premiership decision. If the WRU wants access to Premiership players outside the international window, then they should talk to the Premiership to see what deal can be struck. It's very possible that it would be too expensive but, to the best of my knowledge, no-one from the WRU has ever broached the subject.

Even in regular international windows, when players have been unavailable for a first Test on tour (England in NZ in 2014, France most of the time, including this year) it's common for them to travel afterwards. That option was open with these players too, but Gatland preferred full availability. In which case, it's unclear why he selected them in the first place.

munkian wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

No9 wrote:


And I guess England aren't breaking the windows rule by playing the BaaBaas a week earlier... Guess they aren't playing the BaaBaas to swell the RFU coffers... Oh and of course, no English players playing under the PRL will be released for training or this game as its outside the Official Tour window.

At the end of the season I cant see any reason why they cant be more flexible. And before the REST argument is stated, the Welsh players will get more rest than the English, as thanks to the BaaBaa game they start a week earlier than the Welsh and finish a week later. So, that argument holds water like a sieve.

English teams are able to negotiate payments with their Union for extra curriculur activities undertaken by their players.  Same as Welsh based players do with the WRU.

No agreement exists between English based teams and the WRU. And if they are released, they'll face a PRL fine of £60k per player. If you owned a company and someone asked if you wanted to part with 60k  or not, I reckon I know what your answer would be. So your mini rant is nonsense.

My rant is at your holier than though attitude. The greed you talk about is evident. Its the PRL's greed to fine players for playing an international instead of them siting on their backsides. The fact that England playing extra internationals is OK and not greed, where as the WRU are just money grabbing b'tards...

Apply some consistency, rather than just attacking all things Welsh.

Attacking all things Welsh?


I'm Welsh.


England don't play players that aren't playing in their country. Wales have a smaller player base to they do...therefore England know that the situation isn't going to arise. The WRU should have known that the English clubs had zero choice in the matter - they'd risk being fined and their player release deal beign scuppered with RFU.

Check out the number of England and Wales out of window games in the last 10 years. E.g.: It's in the RFU / PRL deal that England play once out of window in Autumn every 2 years - Wales play an out of window game in the Autumn every single year. (The only home nation that does that.) Pure greed.

Scotland is playing a 4th AI this year against us.

Is that because they are greedy ? Or is it because they are also a small rugby country with a fraction of the RFU's budget ?

As I just said....most unions opt to play out of window tests. What is greedy is playing them year after year like the wru do. We have player release news stories year on year with the WRU. It's pathetic.

Rugby Fan wrote:What makes this episode tiresome, is that the Premiership has made its stance abundantly clear, over several years, and yet there always seems to be surprise when they don't allow players to be released outside the window.

It's not up to the club, and it's not up to the player: it's a joint Premiership decision. If the WRU wants access to Premiership players outside the international window, then they should talk to the Premiership to see what deal can be struck. It's very possible that it would be too expensive but, to the best of my knowledge, no-one from the WRU has ever broached the subject.

Even in regular international windows, when players have been unavailable for a first Test on tour (England in NZ in 2014, France most of the time, including this year) it's common for them to travel afterwards. That option was open with these players too, but Gatland preferred full availability. In which case, it's unclear why he selected them in the first place.

Absolutely. Good post. Gatland likes to flex his authority in public.

Rugby Fan wrote:What makes this episode tiresome, is that the Premiership has made its stance abundantly clear, over several years, and yet there always seems to be surprise when they don't allow players to be released outside the window.

It's not up to the club, and it's not up to the player: it's a joint Premiership decision. If the WRU wants access to Premiership players outside the international window, then they should talk to the Premiership to see what deal can be struck. It's very possible that it would be too expensive but, to the best of my knowledge, no-one from the WRU has ever broached the subject.

Even in regular international windows, when players have been unavailable for a first Test on tour (England in NZ in 2014, France most of the time, including this year) it's common for them to travel afterwards. That option was open with these players too, but Gatland preferred full availability. In which case, it's unclear why he selected them in the first place.

I think the WRU have gone on record previously to say they'll negotiate with the RFU but not the PRL. Which is strange, as the PRL are the ones in control of the clubs who hold the players' contracts.

I'm not calling the WRU greedy in trying to maximise revenue. While I'm sure the bigwigs are well compensated, it's their duty to maximise revenue so they can feed profits back into the game. But the PRL have a similar objective in making profits and it should be noted that very few Premiership clubs do make a profit. The RFU's profit is immaterial, the Premiership clubs are looking for extra money.

One important source of revenue for Premiership clubs is the EPS agreement by which the RFU pays for the release of players outside of the International window and certain control over selected players, e.g. I believe they have a right to rule players out if England deem they are injured.

It's therefore not just about the PRL eeking out a bit of extra cash from the WRU to supplement their income. If PRL allowed to the WRU access to their players free-of-charge, then the RFU would wonder what they were paying 9 figures for.

The rules are clear. World Rugby give internationals primacy but also set windows for international games to be played. No club can stop the release of players in an international window. But if you want extra access, in the professional game you're going to have to pay for it.

WRU can either accept they won't have this access or stump up the cash. What is a bit farcical is calling up English-based players and then kicking off when release is blocked, like it's some kind of surprise or injustice. This latest stunt appears to be a mind game, but whether it is to put pressure on the players or PRL I'm not sure.

If that's true about the wru ruling our negotiating with the prl it's a bit odd. Presumably they'd be paying at least the same rate as rfu or again the rfu would come knocking. Now tv really to do with the rfu from a Welsh agreement perspective though.

Anyway, good to see Hewitt and Wainwright called up. Hewitt’s probably there on merit as he’s been knocking on the door for a while but has unfortunately got injured at crucial times. Wainwright is a bit of a bolter and one I expect Wales want to get into the ‘environment’ so they can start collecting initial data, putting him on their conditioning programme, and that that jazz. One for the future.

Rhodri Jones is not new but has been out of favour for a while. Was the next big thing at one point but seemed to fall down the pecking order. Was he injured? I think perhaps he got leapfrogged by Samson Lee at Scarlets and then moved to the O’s for more game time. But I’d almost forgotten about him to be honest. Interestingly there’s a weird wiki entry for him - “His position, controversially, is tighthead prop.” Why is it controversial?! What did I miss?!!! Was he a LH and then asked to switch and then got forgotten, or something?

We’re obviously weakened a little by losing the 3 as there’s some decent experience there in Charteris and Francis. But good if some of these new 3 can get a run out and experience some (or some more) test rugby.

The WRU have choices.
1) Do not play matches outside the international window
3) Play matches outside the window without PRL players
2) Negotiate payments to the PRL for access to their players outside the window as the RFU does.

Quite why the WRU struggle so much with World Rugby rules and contract law is beyond me.

Good stuff, exiled, now put a sock in it and discuss the tour. Or politely do one