To haka or not to haka (again)

First topic message reminder :

The haka has popped up again in debate in New Zealand. A new book by Peter Bills appears to quote some former All Blacks saying the haka has become over-used and over-commercialised. There is some question over whether all those comments have been taken out of context but it has prompted dicussion of "haka fatigue". Some have suggested the haka should only be performed overseas, which apparently used to be the case.

Here's one article on the subject:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/all-blacks-haka-has-lost-its-mana-nz-legends-claim

In Japan the other day, the New Zealand womens softball team performed a haka to their Taiwanese opposition, who threw salt on the ground afterwards in response. The Kiwis thought was it was dirt, and a sign of disrespect, so they did the haka again. This was described as a "cultural misunderstanding".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/106016553/official-warnings-issued-after-chinese-taipei-softballers-throw-salt-after-nz-white-sox-haka

or this as a scots response to the Haka

SecretFly wrote:Don't get dirty now, Aukster!   Everyone's shaving style is their own business.

And someone form Brazils bound to get offended by the appropriation....

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The Brits don't appropriate culture (unless you're talking Roman, Nordic, Angle, Saxon & French) - but they did used to donate it (you're all very welcome). That job has now be taken over by the yanks of course. We gave the kiwis ours but they didn't like it so they went Maori instead. Which is nice. But no need to make a song and dance about it.

Well the Scots have the highland fling, the Irish that foot tapping river thingy, I get that. What do the English have? Disco dancing? Gangnum style?

TJ wrote:or this as a scots response to the Haka

At least it explains why theyve never won. Plus I think thats at the end of the game, bit like not getting a shot in pool

Taylorman wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The Brits don't appropriate culture (unless you're talking Roman, Nordic, Angle, Saxon & French) - but they did used to donate it (you're all very welcome). That job has now be taken over by the yanks of course. We gave the kiwis ours but they didn't like it so they went Maori instead. Which is nice. But no need to make a song and dance about it.

Well the Scots have the highland fling, the Irish that foot tapping river thingy, I get that. What do the English have? Disco dancing? Gangnum style?

Stop being culturaly insesnitive to Swing Low Sweet Chariot  

Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

True, they might have a chance that way though looking at the current side theyd probably all miss. Or shoot eachother.

The English response to anything is being exposed at the moment with brexit. In other words let’s try and come up with something that is totally to our advantage. The rest of Europe goes “er no thanks”. Ingerlabd goes wtf (oh hang on we really are an inconsequential island off the coast of the mainland). The rest of us get on with life. The end

Taylorman wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

True, they might have a chance that way though looking at the current side theyd probably all miss. Or shoot eachother.

Good show! I like it when humour does the butchering. It's a nicer kind of cut.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The English response to anything is being exposed at the moment with brexit. In other words let’s try and come up with something that is totally to our advantage. The rest of Europe goes “er no thanks”. Ingerlabd goes wtf (oh hang on we really are an inconsequential island off the coast of the mainland).  The rest of us get on with life. The end

Yeah, I do look forward to the end of yet another goosestepping attempt at Empire forming in Europe.  They try it every century.... Napoleon in one, Hitler in another...  They just never get the message.  FuK Empires.  All versions.

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

The older I get, the more I agree, Lord. I'm even cynical about medals. "Here's a medal for killing people" "Here's a medal for getting horrific injuries and having the rest of your life changed forever." "Here's a medal for dying heroically in battle"

I'm not a pacifist and I do believe there are times when war is forced on people for survival and to protect rights and freedoms; and the boy in me still likes a good war movie but the man in me hates real war itself.

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The English response to anything is being exposed at the moment with brexit. In other words let’s try and come up with something that is totally to our advantage. The rest of Europe goes “er no thanks”. Ingerlabd goes wtf (oh hang on we really are an inconsequential island off the coast of the mainland).  The rest of us get on with life. The end

Yeah, I do look forward to the end of yet another goosestepping attempt at Empire forming in Europe.  They try it every century.... Napoleon in one, Hitler in another...  They just never get the message.  FuK Empires.  All versions.

Quite. I was very much remain. But I think the 'EU Empire' and their dodgy ways are being highlighted just as much, if not more, than the UK's.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

The older I get, the more I agree, Lord.  I'm even cynical about medals.  "Here's a medal for killing people"  "Here's a medal for getting horrific injuries and having the rest of your life changed forever."  "Here's a medal for dying heroically in battle"

I'm not a pacifist and I do believe there are times when war is forced on people for survival and to protect rights and freedoms; and the  boy in me still likes a good war movie but the man in me hates real war itself.

If people knew the real story of Rorkes Drift, then they would understand the issues more. Rorkes Drift was a very bloody battle, and the people involved that day need to be remembered.

But lets not forget, that the battle of Rorkes Drift was only revered at the time to cover up for the shambles that happened at Islandwana and the British Empire needed a much needed morale boost.

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

Now that's culturally insensitive - it was the 24th (The 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot - a Brunmy Mob, not a bunch of Valley Commando's.


(Although to be fair, like any English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh Battalion, it had a fair sprinkling of squaddies from all over the British Isles.)


Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: "Sixty! We dropped at least 60, wouldn't you say?"
Adendorff: "That leaves only 3,940."

The Zulus DID win the singing contest though. Without a shadow or a doubt, that was some epic stuff they sang in front of Cowell and the gang.

The Zulus DID win the singing contest though

that's disputed by the Welsh though.

Lieutenant John Chard: [the Zulus are chanting before their final charge] Do you think the Welsh can't do better than that, Owen?

Pte. Owen: Well, they've got a very good bass section, mind, but no top tenors, that's for sure.

Yep, it seems like a bit of artistic license by the film makers to suggested predominantly Welshmen involved in the battle. It probably added to the sub-plot about the sing off, based on another of those cultural stereotypes - the Welsh and their singing!

The Welsh should have known that any response, never mind singing Men of Harlech would be disrespecting the Zulu haka.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

The older I get, the more I agree, Lord.  I'm even cynical about medals.  "Here's a medal for killing people"  "Here's a medal for getting horrific injuries and having the rest of your life changed forever."  "Here's a medal for dying heroically in battle"

I'm not a pacifist and I do believe there are times when war is forced on people for survival and to protect rights and freedoms; and the  boy in me still likes a good war movie but the man in me hates real war itself.

If people knew the real story of Rorkes Drift, then they would understand the issues more. Rorkes Drift was a very bloody battle, and the people involved that day need to be remembered.

But lets not forget, that the battle of Rorkes Drift was only revered at the time to cover up for the shambles that happened at Islandwana and the British Empire needed a much needed morale boost.

Really? Well why the F were they there in first place?

Funnily enough I’m watching a programme being aired as we speak on BBC about New Zealand, Maori culture and Maori art. They show lots of programmes about other cultures here because people in the UK are genuinely interested I guess (otherwise they wouldn’t bother as they’d have no viewers). Do they ever show programmes in NZ about the Welsh?!

The Oracle wrote:Funnily enough I’m watching a programme being aired as we speak on BBC about New Zealand, Maori culture and Maori art. They show lots of programmes about other cultures here because people in the UK are genuinely interested I guess (otherwise they wouldn’t bother as they’d have no viewers). Do they ever show programmes in NZ about the Welsh?!

Only when our rugby players go there. But seriously, do they make a lot of programmes about Wales and Welsh culture? From mynaive point of view there dont seem to be any significant landmarks or tourist spots, mountains etc. its not soldto NZ as a tourist place to go other than yhose looking for bar jobs around Britain for those on their OE.

Other than rugby venues players and stories the most Ive seen of Wales is in that Indian doctor series based in the 60’s! Watched that a few times. Kind of a welsh emmerdale with an indian twist.

Definitely 'to haka' but perhaps not whilst at a funeral or during coitus.

Oh this thread is about the Haka? Yeah, now I remember.

George Carlin wrote:Definitely 'to haka' but perhaps not whilst at a funeral or during coitus.

Oh I do not know, though perhaps not that throat slitting one.

LondonTiger wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Definitely 'to haka' but perhaps not whilst at a funeral or during coitus.

Oh I do not know, though perhaps not that throat slitting one.

Ka mate, ka mate, cora.....aaaagh.

Sorry darling, that's never happened before.

TrailApe wrote:

The Zulus DID win the singing contest though

that's disputed by the Welsh though.

Lieutenant John Chard: [the Zulus are chanting before their final charge] Do you think the Welsh can't do better than that, Owen?

Pte. Owen: Well, they've got a very good bass section, mind, but no top tenors, that's for sure.

Nothing to dispute. We smashed them.

The Oracle wrote:Yep, it seems like a bit of artistic license by the film makers to suggested predominantly Welshmen involved in the battle.  It probably added to the sub-plot about the sing off, based on another of those cultural stereotypes - the Welsh and their singing!

It's because the 24th regiment of foot was moved to Brecon before the Zulu wars, they were encompassed into the Borderers. But yes they were not all Welsh, but they all were mostly convicts.

LordDowlais wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

The Zulus DID win the singing contest though

that's disputed by the Welsh though.

Lieutenant John Chard: [the Zulus are chanting before their final charge] Do you think the Welsh can't do better than that, Owen?

Pte. Owen: Well, they've got a very good bass section, mind, but no top tenors, that's for sure.

Nothing to dispute. We smashed them.

'We' were barely involved!

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Yep, it seems like a bit of artistic license by the film makers to suggested predominantly Welshmen involved in the battle.  It probably added to the sub-plot about the sing off, based on another of those cultural stereotypes - the Welsh and their singing!

It's because the 24th regiment of foot was moved to Brecon before the Zulu wars, they were encompassed into the Borderers. But yes they were not all Welsh, but they all were mostly convicts.

Mostly English.

http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/battle/roll.htm


English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh and even Swiss.

Taylorman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Historically I believe the correct English response to the Haka should be:
"Form three ranks"
"Front rank kneel"
"Load"
"Front row fire"
"Second row fire, front rank reload"
Third row fire, second rank reload"
Front row fire, third rank reload"
And so on............

Ah, Zulu, where few of the South Wales borderers took on thousands of Zulu warriors. A very stirring film, yet, it makes me laugh when war and carnage is glorified.

The older I get, the more I agree, Lord.  I'm even cynical about medals.  "Here's a medal for killing people"  "Here's a medal for getting horrific injuries and having the rest of your life changed forever."  "Here's a medal for dying heroically in battle"

I'm not a pacifist and I do believe there are times when war is forced on people for survival and to protect rights and freedoms; and the  boy in me still likes a good war movie but the man in me hates real war itself.

If people knew the real story of Rorkes Drift, then they would understand the issues more. Rorkes Drift was a very bloody battle, and the people involved that day need to be remembered.

But lets not forget, that the battle of Rorkes Drift was only revered at the time to cover up for the shambles that happened at Islandwana and the British Empire needed a much needed morale boost.

Really? Well why the F were they there in first place?

Because the British wanted to rule the world. We were not the only one's at the time, the French and the Dutch were at it. We really had no business what so ever being there, the same as Egypt, as soon as the British Empire landed there, they said they were leaving, it took 70 years.

That's empire building for you.

But Rorkes Drift was a stand off, after the British army was beaten at Islandwana by a far inferior military technology army. Although the Zulu's outnumbered the British by about 20 to 1, it was seen as a travesty. The same army then descended onto Rorkes Drift, where a hundred or so soldiers held out against 3,000 Zulus. There was no real winner, the Zulus were just getting slaughtered by a well organised garrison. Rather than lose more people, they just gave up, they were running out of supplies, and the casualties were rising, so they went home.

Then the battle was dramatised to the hilt to cover up for the shambles that happened at Islandwana. The British Empire needed a good news story, after the previous. So they turned Rorkes Drift into a much needed morale booster for the empire. They had won after all.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

The Zulus DID win the singing contest though

that's disputed by the Welsh though.

Lieutenant John Chard: [the Zulus are chanting before their final charge] Do you think the Welsh can't do better than that, Owen?

Pte. Owen: Well, they've got a very good bass section, mind, but no top tenors, that's for sure.

Nothing to dispute. We smashed them.

'We' were barely involved!

I am saying the royal we, the British.

Look, I do not know if that sing off really happened, but in the film, we owned it.

To be fair the Zulu singing tradition is still alive and well. I was out for a quiet pint the other night and a crowd were encouraging a Zulu warrior to have a drink. Apparently he was high-ranking too. A chief, no less. They were at the other side of the bar though so I couldn’t tell if he was in full tribal dress.

Strange place to go for a quiet pint.

It was fairly quiet until the usual drunken and obnoxious Irish oiks came in to fill up on cheap lager before getting arrested. It’s ruining the neighbourhood.

So not only Zulu singing but obnoxious Irish oiks usually come in - seems a strange place to go for a quiet pint

Yeah, it's a better buzz being obnoxious on more expensive lager, sure enough.

...woz there any dwarf throwing entertainment? This pub sounds like my kinda joint.

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The English response to anything is being exposed at the moment with brexit. In other words let’s try and come up with something that is totally to our advantage. The rest of Europe goes “er no thanks”. Ingerlabd goes wtf (oh hang on we really are an inconsequential island off the coast of the mainland).  The rest of us get on with life. The end

Yeah, I do look forward to the end of yet another goosestepping attempt at Empire forming in Europe.  They try it every century.... Napoleon in one, Hitler in another...  They just never get the message.  FuK Empires.  All versions.

Quite.  I was very much remain.  But I think the 'EU Empire' and their dodgy ways are being highlighted just as much, if not more, than the UK's.

Oh Jenny’s. The dinosaur and a Welshman have spoken. Clueless and living in the past. Maybe fly you would like us to be doffing our collective cap(s) as in the past and to go back to being an economic and social backwater. Unfortunately it’s people with your views that have tended to hold Ireland back. As for the welsh. With all their talk they follow their masters pretty much ( in fact the Scots are the same- just they wear women’s clothing)

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The English response to anything is being exposed at the moment with brexit. In other words let’s try and come up with something that is totally to our advantage. The rest of Europe goes “er no thanks”. Ingerlabd goes wtf (oh hang on we really are an inconsequential island off the coast of the mainland).  The rest of us get on with life. The end

Yeah, I do look forward to the end of yet another goosestepping attempt at Empire forming in Europe.  They try it every century.... Napoleon in one, Hitler in another...  They just never get the message.  FuK Empires.  All versions.

Quite.  I was very much remain.  But I think the 'EU Empire' and their dodgy ways are being highlighted just as much, if not more, than the UK's.

Oh Jenny’s. The dinosaur and a Welshman have spoken. Clueless and living in the past. Maybe fly you would like us to be doffing our collective cap(s) as in the past and to go back to being an economic and social backwater. Unfortunately it’s people with your views that have tended to hold Ireland back. As for the welsh. With all their talk they follow their masters pretty much ( in fact the Scots are the same- just they wear women’s clothing)

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Oh Jenny’s. The dinosaur and a Welshman have spoken. Clueless and living in the past. Maybe fly you would like us to be doffing our collective cap(s) as in the past and to go back to being an economic and social backwater. Unfortunately it’s people with your views that have tended to hold Ireland back. As for the welsh. With all their talk they follow their masters pretty much ( in fact the Scots are the same- just they wear women’s clothing)

Yeah, it's people like me DOD.  As you run back into the arms of another Empire, coz it makes you feel all secure and important and stuff, I'll walk instead.  
But you enjoy the socialist waffle from the European Parliament politburo and obey the orders from your betters in Brussels (the masters):



Hum your Ode to Joy loudly, salute the Stars sharply and dream that you're in Paris when you drink your Cappuccino al fresco in the pi-ss-ing rain.

Oh we're SOOOOO sofistikated in this here European Union, us Irish.  Some of us now even eat with a knife and fork.  Who'd have thought!  If we hadn't had the EU, we'd still have the famine.

SecretFly wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Oh Jenny’s. The dinosaur and a Welshman have spoken. Clueless and living in the past. Maybe fly you would like us to be doffing our collective cap(s) as in the past and to go back to being an economic and social backwater. Unfortunately it’s people with your views that have tended to hold Ireland back. As for the welsh. With all their talk they follow their masters pretty much ( in fact the Scots are the same- just they wear women’s clothing)

Yeah, it's people like me DOD.  As you run back into the arms of another Empire, coz it makes you feel all secure and important and stuff, I'll walk instead.  
But you enjoy the socialist waffle from the European Parliament politburo and obey the orders from your betters in Brussels (the masters):



Hum your Ode to Joy loudly, salute the Stars sharply and dream that you're in Paris when you drink your Cappuccino al fresco in the pi-ss-ing rain.

Oh we're SOOOOO sofistikated in this here European Union, us Irish.  Some of us now even eat with a knife and fork.  Who'd have thought!  If we hadn't had the EU, we'd still have the famine.

Unintelligent and unintelligible.

I think SA should bring back their Zulu haka they used to perform before games. Spice things up.