To haka or not to haka (again)

First topic message reminder :

The haka has popped up again in debate in New Zealand. A new book by Peter Bills appears to quote some former All Blacks saying the haka has become over-used and over-commercialised. There is some question over whether all those comments have been taken out of context but it has prompted dicussion of "haka fatigue". Some have suggested the haka should only be performed overseas, which apparently used to be the case.

Here's one article on the subject:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/all-blacks-haka-has-lost-its-mana-nz-legends-claim

In Japan the other day, the New Zealand womens softball team performed a haka to their Taiwanese opposition, who threw salt on the ground afterwards in response. The Kiwis thought was it was dirt, and a sign of disrespect, so they did the haka again. This was described as a "cultural misunderstanding".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/106016553/official-warnings-issued-after-chinese-taipei-softballers-throw-salt-after-nz-white-sox-haka

ebop wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

ebop wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

ebop wrote:The way home fans jeer, whistle, boo and sing songs during the haka when the ABs play away makes me think the fans ‘in the stadium’ really enjoy it as it gives them a chance to really show their displeasure at being shafted on the scoreboard for +100 years.

I think the fans are just expressing their freedom and desire to respond to it and the challenge laid down, which their team is forbidden from doing.

Do you reckon the home players might be encouraged when they hear ‘their own’ fans responding like that to the ABs haka? Do you reckon the haka and the disdain typically shown from the home fans might actually be a beneficial thing? Instead of crying about home players being ‘forbidden’ from doing anything meaningful in response you could maybe see it as an opportunity for the home players to grow in confidence knowing their fans are right behind them. The national anthems in contrast are generally puss weak waste of time snorefests.

I have never seen a crowd treat it with any disrespect. I remember the Welsh once singing Land of My Fathers during it - if that is showing disrespect then frankly people are looking desperately to be offended.


Do you Ebop (and any other Kiwis) believe that away from home the Haka should be the last thing done before kick off?

Don’t think many kiwis care how teams or fans react, I don’t care. I also don’t care if it’s done at away games or also when it’s done in the build up. Home teams boo and whistle and jeer and I think it’s great as it builds up momentum for the game. Defiance shown to a bunch of players from a small country in the South Pacific. I’d be disappointed if there was silence and polite clapping.

Its a pity World rugby has put restrictions on it, telling the opposition to stand ten meters back blah blah.
As a rule its meant as both a challenge and mark of respect to the receivers, so a response is expected. ‘This is who we are, who are you?’ I suppose is one way of explaining it.

In NZ schools both perform it and its quite a spectacle. It sets a great scene, gets formalities out of the way in the same way a handshake, opening and receiving speeches etc does. No more, no less.

I think the link to the ABs success is what really riles people. They dont get all annoyed by the Samoan equivalent...’oh that they say’ is about as strong as it gets. If the ABs started losing every match it wouldnt be such an issue for some. Nor would it be a reason to not keep performing it. They would still respect their opposition, win or lose.

Taylorman wrote: NZ schools both perform it and its quite a spectacle. It sets a great scene, gets formalities out of the way in the same way a handshake, opening and receiving speeches etc does. No more, no less.

That school haka you posted on here the other day was genuinely impressive.

It's interesting you mention the handshake. While it's more common in Japan these days, it wasn't so long ago that a lot of Japanese would have felt uncomfortable at shaking hands, and offered a bow instead. Just recently, there was a case where a muslim women in Sweden sued a company after they rejected her for refusing to shake hands at a job interview, something which she regarded as against her religion. She won, but in a separate case, Swiss authorities rejected a citizenship claim by a muslim couple who also didn't shake hands, on the grounds it showed they weren't integrated.

Gestures of goodwill and respect have to be recognised by both parties to have any meaning.

World Rugby has imposed restrictions but this was partly in response to complaints from New Zealanders about inappropriate responses. Most on here seem happy with the idea that the opposition should be allowed to respond to a challenge however they want. I believe some on the New Zealand team management were unhappy that France were fined for moving too close to the haka in 2011. However, that's not a universal view across NZ sport.

The New Zealand Women's softball team mentioned at the top of this thread evidently thought they were being disrespected (because they don't know what throwing salt means).

One of the most famous responses is Willie Anderson's Irish side walking into a Wayne Shelford-led haka. When the Australian U20s Rugby League side did the same four years ago, NZRL boss Howie Tamati called it "provocative and disrespectful".

The Tall Blacks got upset at what they regarded as disrespect to the haka at World Basketball Championships (I think Turkey talked to their coach while it was being performed).

I can understand World Rugby trying to reduce the potential for flashpoints. However, rugby players spend most of their time in matches trying to break the laws of the game without getting caught. Looking to regulate behaviour before the whistle has been blown is like a red rag to a bull.

James Holbeck had a good perspective on the matter a couple of years ago.

For many years I had seen the Haka as an unfair advantage where one team gets to call you out without a right of reply. If you ignore, it is deemed disrespectful. If you march upon it, you are the ones charged with being provocative. You should just stand there and take it. At most you are allowed to uncomfortably shuffle from side-to-side, like you are forced onto the dance floor at your best mates wedding. ..

...What if the Wallabies allowed the Haka to be seen as honouring and respecting them as an opposition? Energising them. Preparing them for battle by symbolically, arm-in-arm, staying true to the integrity of the team. Standing strong in the face of adversity as one.

What if the Wallabies no longer felt the need in that moment to prove anything by contorting their image to match the perceived intimidation of the opposition or by shrinking down? What if they replaced the sense of intimidation with a simple call to bring all that they have to bring?

What if they were only affected by allowing the Haka to build an inner drive that slowly increases; silently and deliberately, waiting patiently for the moment that the whistle blows to fully embody the heart of what the Wallabies represent?

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2016/08/19/04/42/holbeck-how-are-we-to-respond-to-the-haka

That's an ideal, and easier to envisage when you face the haka so often. As Holbeck says, he had time for his views to evolve. You have to think, though, that lot of opponents across many sports probably still adhere to his original impression.

Over time there have been some quite precious responses to the Haka.

One that I have always seen the funny side to, was the group of Kiwi teenagers who were exchange students at a school in one of the mid West States of the USA, and these Kiwi kids played in the schools basketball team. Anyway one day at one of their games they decided to do haka. Well the locals didnt know what to do, Meanwhile there was some Police out in the carpark, they heard the commotion, ran in, and thought that there was a riot in progress so they tear gassed the Kiwi kids.

Well of course the Americans have their own traditions... one of them is called a gunfight.

You ride into a strange town with suspicious folks in it and call out their sheriff (opposing team) onto the street...well, ya gotta be ready for gunplay.  Folks don't take too kindly to a bunch of outlaws lookin' for trouble.

So perhaps two things emerge from your story, laurie.  

One: the young Kiwis should have been told they were in a different Nation, with all their own unique trigger finger attitudes and customs.
Two: They should count themselves extremely lucky that they were only tear gassed.

Taylorman wrote:Its a pity World rugby has put restrictions on it, telling the opposition to stand ten meters back blah blah.
As a rule its meant as both a challenge and mark of respect to the receivers, so a response is expected. ‘This is who we are, who are you?’ I suppose is one way of explaining it.

In NZ schools both perform it and its quite a spectacle. It sets a great scene, gets formalities out of the way in the same way a handshake, opening and receiving speeches etc does. No more, no less.

I think the link to the ABs success is what really riles people. They dont get all annoyed by the Samoan equivalent...’oh that they say’ is about as strong as it gets. If the ABs started losing every match it wouldnt be such an issue for some. Nor would it be a reason to not keep performing it. They would still respect their opposition, win or lose.

Just imagine how bad the Samoans would be if they didn't have the motivational boost of the Siva Tau! Presumably the Maori first did their haka, not because it was good TV, but rather because it got them psyched up to deal with whatever they were facing? Hakas have been reported taking place at weddings and funerals, therefore their nature must be non-confrontational and introspective with no response required. World Rugby have no doubt consulted the custodians of Maori culture to affirm that the appropriate way to witness the event is from afar with no response allowed.

If the ABs version is indeed a challenge summed up by ‘This is who we are, who are you?’, then the WR recommended silence is way off the mark. It is truly amazing that an organisation that panders to its premier brand so much would allow the opposition to disrespect the haka by proscribing an answer to a straightforward question. Perhaps a more plausible explanation of the rugby haka would be if the question is rhetorical, 'We are the All Blacks, who are ya, who are ya, who are ya...' (and would explain some of the hand gestures).

Has the increased adoption of the haka by me-too NZ sports teams been down to a sudden cultural awareness, or because their coaches realise it is a great way to psych their players up while the opposition can only watch? In a physical sport like rugby the haka has been seen as a starter to the main course but how does this work in basketball or Women's Softball? Whatever other sports motivations are for adopting the haka, once it becomes so ubiquitous that it is no longer seen as an iconic rugby warrior tradition, then it will be unmasked purely as a psychological tool that one side can use and the other can't and so will probably be banned. While that might be a tad fairer, the rugby world would be considerably darker.

That I think is the problem - the Haka is perceived as giving the ABs an advantage   partly because they do well and to be fair they would probably do equally well without it, but also because the opposition have to stand stock still and watch them do it, so you've got professional sports people who've gone through a long warm up and pre-game procedure having to stand around in the cold and wet and watch the opposition psyche themselves up with an aggressive ritual.
By all means continue it as a spectacle for the fans and/or as a team bonding exercise for the ABs but leave the other team out of it.

Quite right, Irish. There is also the issue of how the haka has developed over recent years. Look at footage of early performances then look at recent performances and you will see how much more aggressive and intimidating it has become. In one incarnation there was a throat slitting gesture which is hardly sportsmanlike. They claim it is their cultural heritage but the very fact that they can change it at will disproves that. I mean imagine England swapping God Save The Queen for, oh I don't know, some negro spiritual (well the first few lines away). I mean it's unthinkable.

If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

Irish Londoner wrote:That I think is the problem - the Haka is perceived as giving the ABs an advantage   partly because they do well and to be fair they would probably do equally well without it, but also because the opposition have to stand stock still and watch them do it, so you've got professional sports people who've gone through a long warm up and pre-game procedure having to stand around in the cold and wet and watch the opposition psyche themselves up with an aggressive ritual.
By all means continue it as a spectacle for the fans and/or as a team bonding exercise for the ABs but leave the other team out of it.

Yeah fair comments, thats the annoying thing, the non response. Ideally, it would be responded to with another haka, as you see NZ vs any of the Islands etc. so its a gap that will never be filled adequately so instead is filled with confusion, anger etc. Unfortunately unpoliced that confusion would spill into heated conflict and no one wants that either.

Time will tell I guess but the status quo is far from ideal. Tick, tick...

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

There really is only one way to respond to the Haka, beat the All Blacks. Any other posturing pales into comedy unless you can back it up with at the very least a good performance. The Irish encroached (I always cringe at that one) and the Welsh had a stare-out but on both occasions were shown their own back ends when it came to the rugby. I love the Haka as a spectacle and a tradition, I have done since I was a kid and I always will but trying to respond with anything other than action on the pitch in game time is futile.

That being said if Ireland could rehearse some kind of river dance that would be nice

Given the number of Kiwis in some NH squads couldn't we now do a Haka back ?

Good call, the Pacific Englanders definitely qualify

Lol. Good one ebop.

Is it a World Rugby stipulation that the haka is amplified over the PA sound system for maximum effect?

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

The Great Aukster wrote:Is it a World Rugby stipulation that the haka is amplified over the PA sound system for maximum effect?

I don’t think so. Because most of the time at away games all I hear is booing, whistling and jeering

Every six months we get the habitual Haka question from some pasty englander or taff Because despite numerous beatings they still can’t understand that the reason the ABs keep winning is because they are just better than everyone else with or without a silly dance or even the great god Ritchie McCaw.

Having said that the mention of the response from the Samoans, Tongans or Fijians when playing the ABs is laughable because they don’t - probably because the ABs would find it embarrassing to have brothers/cousins etc dancing off against each other.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Every six months we get the habitual Haka question from some pasty englander or taff Because despite numerous beatings they still can’t understand that the reason the ABs keep winning is because they are just better than everyone else with or without a silly dance or even the great god Ritchie McCaw.

Having said that the mention of the response from the Samoans, Tongans or Fijians when playing the ABs is laughable because they don’t - probably because the ABs would find it embarrassing to have brothers/cousins etc dancing off against each other.

Youre saying they dont respond? Hmmm...seen any lately?

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Taylorman wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Every six months we get the habitual Haka question from some pasty englander or taff Because despite numerous beatings they still can’t understand that the reason the ABs keep winning is because they are just better than everyone else with or without a silly dance or even the great god Ritchie McCaw.

Having said that the mention of the response from the Samoans, Tongans or Fijians when playing the ABs is laughable because they don’t - probably because the ABs would find it embarrassing to have brothers/cousins etc dancing off against each other.

Youre saying they dont respond? Hmmm...seen any lately?

I know the level of education in the south seas is questionable but you would expect a basic level of reading and comprehension

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Every six months we get the habitual Haka question from some pasty englander or taff Because despite numerous beatings they still can’t understand that the reason the ABs keep winning is because they are just better than everyone else with or without a silly dance or even the great god Ritchie McCaw.

Having said that the mention of the response from the Samoans, Tongans or Fijians when playing the ABs is laughable because they don’t - probably because the ABs would find it embarrassing to have brothers/cousins etc dancing off against each other.

Youre saying they dont respond? Hmmm...seen any lately?

I know the level of education in the south seas is questionable but you would expect a basic level of reading and comprehension

Why would you expect it? Polynesians did not have a written language.

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Where did I say the ABs didn’t respect their opposition?

ebop wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Where did I say the ABs didn’t respect their opposition?

Above

Have another read of what you highlighted because I don’t think I said the ABs don’t respect teams

What you've written expresses your thoughts clearly.
The question was whether Taylorman agreed with them.

ebop wrote:Have another read of what you highlighted because I don’t think I said the ABs don’t respect teams

Lol, its fairly clear you did.

Lol, that’s my opinion of what they should do to shut the whingers up. If people at away games don’t want the haka or have a sook because they think it gives the ABs an unfair advantage, don’t do it, save it for home games or for teams that acknowledge it for what it is. I thought that’s what the sooky bubbas wanted?

In any sporting contest the governing body should enforce regulations that are fair to both contestants. It is clearly unfair to encourage one side to psych themselves up just before game-start, while the other one is ordered to wait and watch passively.
Arguably the All Blacks haka is the least unfair because they don't need it to win. However should the teams who are looking for any millimetre of advantage such as NZ Women's Softball, or the Tall Blacks, or the other PI rugby teams really be allowed to avail of institutionally approved gamesmanship?

It should be done, if at all, before the anthems.

ebop wrote:Lol, that’s my opinion of what they should do to shut the whingers up. If people at away games don’t want the haka or have a sook because they think it gives the ABs an unfair advantage, don’t do it, save it for home games or for teams that acknowledge it for what it is. I thought that’s what the sooky bubbas wanted?

You were suggesting the ABs don't respect other teams. Can you not just admit it?

I have no issue with the Haka, I like it a lot. My preference would be that they save it for NZ Maori and NZ games though.

Not convinced it gives the ABs an advantage. Refs and world rugby maybe but not the Haka.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Lol, that’s my opinion of what they should do to shut the whingers up. If people at away games don’t want the haka or have a sook because they think it gives the ABs an unfair advantage, don’t do it, save it for home games or for teams that acknowledge it for what it is. I thought that’s what the sooky bubbas wanted?

You were suggesting the ABs don't respect other teams. Can you not just admit it?

I have no issue with the Haka, I like it a lot. My preference would be that they save it for NZ Maori and NZ games though.

Not convinced it gives the ABs an advantage. Refs and world rugby maybe but not the Haka.

Absolutely guarantee it would be northerners that would complain the most if they decided not to do it in the NH and performed it everywhere else. Those that complain are very much the minority. Like it or not, the package that is the All Blacks remains the biggest sell in rugby. And buying is what NH rugby does best, much better than they coach or play it.

More people turn up to watch england and as I'm reminded regularly they are the richest union.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Repost for Taylorman - just in case you missed this question

Taylorman wrote:Like it or not, the package that is the All Blacks remains the biggest sell in rugby.

That is not really true though is it? England for instance get larger average attendances than the All Blacks. England regularly fill Twickenham without the supposed draw of the All Blacks. The Six Nations is the best attended sports tournament in the world with an average crowd of 72,000. As far as I know the All Blacks are not in it. As someone living in Scotland I find it easier to get tickets to see the Scotland play the All Blacks than to see Scotland play England.

TV contracts also indicate that the biggest draws are unsurprisingly the biggest countries.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Like it or not, the package that is the All Blacks remains the biggest sell in rugby.

That is not really true though is it? England for instance get larger average attendances than the All Blacks. England regularly fill Twickenham without the supposed draw of the All Blacks. The Six Nations is the best attended sports tournament in the world with an average crowd of 72,000. As far as I know the All Blacks are not in it. As someone living in Scotland I find it easier to get tickets to see the Scotland play the All Blacks than to see Scotland play England.

TV contracts also indicate that the biggest draws are unsurprisingly the biggest countries.

Ticket prices go up for ABs games don’t they?

“The most expensive match will unsurprisingly be England’s first Test against New Zealand in four years, with adult tickets ranging from £70 to the top end fee previously mentioned (£195)”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/england-vs-new-zealand-ticket-prices-all-blacks-195-rfu-a8324491.html

The Great Aukster wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Repost for Taylorman - just in case you missed this question

I was explaining to ebop how youre another that doesnt get it. Pretty obvious really. We were both agreeing.

ebop wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Like it or not, the package that is the All Blacks remains the biggest sell in rugby.

That is not really true though is it? England for instance get larger average attendances than the All Blacks. England regularly fill Twickenham without the supposed draw of the All Blacks. The Six Nations is the best attended sports tournament in the world with an average crowd of 72,000. As far as I know the All Blacks are not in it. As someone living in Scotland I find it easier to get tickets to see the Scotland play the All Blacks than to see Scotland play England.

TV contracts also indicate that the biggest draws are unsurprisingly the biggest countries.

Ticket prices go up for ABs games don’t they?

“The most expensive match will unsurprisingly be England’s first Test against New Zealand in four years, with adult tickets ranging from £70 to the top end fee previously mentioned (£195)”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/england-vs-new-zealand-ticket-prices-all-blacks-195-rfu-a8324491.html

Yeah its another one that doesnt get it. Reason a scot england match would sell will be because the english fan base is next door. Ours isnt.

But nz isn't the biggest draw then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But nz isn't the biggest draw then.

Judging by the quality of rugby they are. Youre saying scots would if they had the choice prefer to watch scotland playing england than the ABs, a side they have never beaten and at a time where they have a side with a sniff of beating them and seeing it?

Somehow I doubt that.

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

ebop wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:If I was an opposition player I'd be making a mental picture of them in a rehearsal  room, wearing legwarmers and practicing the Haka under a Kiwi equivalent of the dance teacher from Billy Elliott.

^ this is a revealing statement about where your head is at. You probably own a leotard and leg warmers.

I reckon the haka should be a spontaneous thing and only done when the ABs felt it worth doing. Not the WR sanctioned choreographed affair it is currently. The opposition could do what they liked whilst they did it except cross the half way line.  It’d be quite revealing of ones character.

The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Its a good call that while the haka is being performed the other team do what they like, such as warming up for example. In fact it would be a good idea for the ABs to perform the ritual as part of their warm up, which is essentially what it is anyway.

If the All Blacks don't respect their opposition, then they are effectively disrespecting the haka as it is supposed to be a mark of respect to the opposition - should they complain to themselves about disrespect?

Another who doesnt get. Amusing anyway. It is World rugbys call re the response, not the ABs. ABs have done the haka for over a century. Takes that long for some to get it huh?

Are you saying that ebop is wrong and the All Blacks do respect whoever they're facing?

Repost for Taylorman - just in case you missed this question

I was explaining to ebop how youre another that doesnt get it. Pretty obvious really. We were both agreeing.

Taylorman wrote:As a rule its meant as both a challenge and mark of respect to the receivers, so a response is expected.

ebop wrote:The ABs should save the haka for a team like SA where both teams have a healthy and enduring respect for each other and other Pacific Island nations.

The rest of the teams? Meh, flag the haka, not worth the effort or trouble.

Can you see that agreeing with the second statement is disagreeing with the first, or is contradiction something that I need to get?

Change the goal posts Taylor. It's not england begging more money.

Begging for money? Been a few layoffs at RFU lately. And English clubs are losing money like it’s going out of fashion.

Rfu don't own the club's ebop. But if the revised statement is that nz are a bigger draw than saracens I agree.

Do you reckon some RFU staff are thanking their lucky stars England are playing the ABs this year? All that extra extorted ticket price money surely must have saved a couple from getting the axe.

Extortion how?

So the rfu are happy that they sell.out another game. Yeah sure they will be. Not sure about the axe the rfu are obviously the richest union in the world so if they're struggling others will be asking money from them no doubt to make ends meat. Like nz did for example.

Do we know why the RFU made all those people redundant 7.5? Are they maybe paying their England players too much in appearance fees? Kind of like what all those money losing English clubs are doing. What about the woman’s team, are they still funded these days or have the RFU cut back on this?

Which people exactly maybe there was a statement? Do continue to change the subject though as we both now agree that England is the biggest draw.