The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Over the last week I've seen fans of other teams say that todd is world class and argue that their countries 5th choice flanker should be starter for a combined ireland wales team.

Even Sam Cane wouldnt make the Ireland squad never mind Todd. OBrien, VdF and Leavy all better 7s.

Thinking about it I think there's only possibly one guy who would make everyone's team. Retallick?

Barrett would make all teams but not at out half. Id say Furlong would too. The step dummy and offload he did v Wasps yesterday was a level above all other tight head props.

Furlong is the best TH around and by a fair bit imo. A world XV would still be the majority of the NZ side, but they'd be a few debatable choices.

I'm not a huge Cane fan but he'd make the England side at 7, not sure Todd would.

Only English players that would push for a world XV for me would be Mako V, Billy V, Farrell and May. If all our locks were on form, I'd throw in a few of those too.

I'd personally have Furlong too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Furlong is the best TH around and by a fair bit imo. A world XV would still be the majority of the NZ side, but they'd be a few debatable choices.

I'm not a huge Cane fan but he'd make the England side at 7, not sure Todd would.

Only English players that would push for a world XV for me would be Mako V, Billy V, Farrell and May. If all our locks were on form, I'd throw in a few of those too.

Yeah I think Furlong gets more votes than others. Wouldnt touch headhunter Mako with a barge pole and think Moody could just about be up there as well but he has issues with his high tackling as well. Good thing is our props and hookers are all starting to reappear so good timing there. Nepo Laulala and Moody will match any set of props around by this time next year.

Agree on Retallick, I think hes the only dead set first pick in any one position, has no peer currently for the range of skills he has, though I think Ioane is current the best winger, at least I havent seen one better in the last two seasons. May and Dyantyi have a case. Pocock at 7 if he actually played there.

Smith and Murray, Barrett and Sexton are a horses for courses thing. Murray's pass is too slow for a NZ backline but works for Irelands keep the ball in front of the team style. Read isnt at his pre injury best but is still top 2 or 3. Cody Taylor and Marx are easily the standout hookers.

Potentially Laulala, Goodhue, Mo'unga could be up there next year or two. Ireland then SA look to have the better back rows at the moment.

ABs going north. Todds in, Akira's out. Papali'i the bolter from...Auckland. Front rowers all returning. Laumape a small relegation to the extra 19. Fairly expected overall. Good kiwi name in Gareth Evans also there.

ALL BLACKS NORTHERN TOUR SQUAD

32 players for Oct 27 v Wallabies and beyond:

Forwards:

Hookers: Dane Coles, Nathan Harris, Codie Taylor

Props: Owen Franks, Nepo Laulala, Joe Moody, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Ofa Tuungafasi

​Locks: Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Whitelock

​Loose forwards: Vaea Fifita, Dalton Papalii, Kieran Read (c), Ardie Savea, Liam Squire, Matt Todd

​Backs:

​Halfbacks: TJ Perenara, Aaron Smith, Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi

First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Damian McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga

​Midfielders: Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, Sonny Bill Williams

Outside backs: Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Waisake Naholo, Ben Smith​

19 players for Nov 3 v Japan:

Forwards:

Hookers: Asafo Aumua, Liam Coltman

​Props: Tyrel Lomax, Reuben O'Neill, Tim Perry, Angus Ta'avao

Locks: Luke Romano

Loose forwards: Jackson Hemopo, Gareth Evans, Dillon Hunt, Luke Whitelock

Backs:

Halfbacks: Mitchell Drummond, Bryn Hall

First five-eighths: Brett Cameron

Midfielders: Ngani Laumape, Matt Proctor

Outside backs: George Bridge, David Havili, Nehe Milner-Skudder

Define world class?everyone you talked too depending on country would have an opinion on that.
What`s the situation with Elliott Dixon/Liam Squire thought they would be Kaino`s replacement

Which is why I'm. Asking you to say how you define it Alan. Can't be difficult it's just your opinion and would help people understand why you think todd is world class.

51 players!!! Wonder how many support staff there will be? However many that is going to be an expensive tour.

LondonTiger wrote:51 players!!! Wonder how many support staff there will be? However many that is going to be an expensive tour.

I'm sure the ABs command a hefty fee from the Japanese for playing against them. The cost is probably justifiable as they will be staying in the exact same hotel and using the same training facilities as they will at the RWC. Good prep.

RIGHT IF you accept that NZ are the best team in the world currently,then replace the player in it,Todd
is the best out and out 7 in NZ[think Neil Back style].ONLY Pocock or Hooper would replace him,"fitzy"
rates him highly.
Balance of a back row is important thats why the "POOPER"does`nt work Cane at 6,Read [uninjured]
at 8 Todd at 7 would be ideal.
Read has had injury concerns all year and has been off his game ,Cane does the graft so Read can run.
The breakdown defence is different for both players.
The Squad picked contains virtually the whole Crusaders Squad for AI`s.

So for clarity - 

To be World Class you have to be either in the best team in the world or better than a player in it.


Firstly this suggests there can only be one world class player in each position at any one time.
Secondly even if there is a dearth of talent in a position - someone can be called World Class.
Thirdly - while World Class is a subjective thing, the opinion of the head selector for the best team in the world has the most important opinion.

alanmackie6 wrote:RIGHT IF you accept that NZ are the best team in the world currently,then replace the player in it,Todd
is the best out and out 7 in NZ[think Neil Back style].ONLY Pocock or Hooper would replace him,"fitzy"
rates him highly.
Balance of a back row is important thats why the "POOPER"does`nt work Cane at 6,Read [uninjured]
at 8 Todd at 7 would be ideal.
Read has had injury concerns all year and has been off his game ,Cane does the graft so Read can run.
The breakdown defence is different for both players.
The Squad picked contains virtually the whole Crusaders Squad for AI`s.

All 3 7s in the Ireland squad are better than Todd. I certainly wouldn't replace SOB, JdF or Leavy for Todd. If Todd was so good he would have earned more than 14 caps since 2011 especially given that Cane is hardly the best 7 the world has ever seen.

So you are saying top 3 in the world is world class? So you think todd is the 3rd best 7 in the world. Ok at least we know what your parameters are. I mean todd can't get past savea and as you say a 6.5 in cane. I agree that pocoxk for me is the best 7 available. Plenty in the UK better than hooper however.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree that pocoxk for me is the best 7 available. Plenty in the UK better than hooper however.

Care to name them ?

Can do. In no particular order. Tipuric leavy sob Watson hartley davies navidi.

Are Leavy and SOB in the UK? I would definitely pick them ahead of Hooper, JVdF too.

I love general statements like.

"Ireland have three 7's better than Todd"

Or

"New Zealand is the best team in the world so replace players that are better"

It is in fact such ridiculous statements to make.

Yes, New Zealand is the best team, there is a reason for it, not because they have the 15 best players in the world on the park, it is because they are first and foremost the best coached team in the world, not just their team but their whole coaxhing and admin atructure from bottom to top enhances their ability.

Yes they have great players, but again, the communication, cohesion etc make individuals shine.

As for Ireland having three 7's better than todd.

That is just an unfounded statement that cannot be proven other than in the mind of the beholder.

There are plenty of players recognised to be world class. World class doesn't have to mean you are the best, or you will be selected in every test team.

World class simply suggests the player will be appreciated in most squads, are therefor recognised by most knowledgeable rugby supporters, and would get recognition from most coaches.

Ah true enough collapse walked into that.

Which is why when the general phrase world.class turns up biltong it's best to know what people mean by it.

None of the top five or six sides in the world can afford to have journeymen players - rugby just can't work like that anymore.  You have to hold your own at a certain level if you're one of the first 15 on the list, and you even have to be able to hold your own now as a regular sub - they are now as important to the winning as the starters as coaches often have two gameplans; one for starters and then an endgame for 'finishers'.

So...even a considered limited player in terms of 'natural skillsets' - say Devon Toner as an Irish example? - well who the hell can say he's less than World Class when he is often central to the platform Ireland use to gain traction and release the more naturally gifted athletes?  

The challenging answer might be that Toner could be easily replaced, which highlights his ordinariness.  Hmmm, well could he be so lightly replaced?  If he's easily replaceable then Schmidt is a coach that would readily see the options there to retire Toner from International quickly.

World Class is the players chosen to fight out the top 5 or 6 rankings in World Rugby.  Now some of those players are more box-office than others but the 'ordinary' world class players are the guys allowing the box-office world class blokes to shine.

Lets use Etzebeth as an example.

People tend to wax rather lyrical about him, South African supporters love him, New Zealanders often comment he should have been a New Zealander.

Fact is, I have never wet myself when thinking about him, we have depth at lock like nobody's business.

Etzebeth is just one of them, each of our locks have certain individual skills others don't have, it is the combinations that works or doesn't

It isn't really unfounded though Billtong as Josh Van Der Flier our third choice 7 played the test v NZ in Chicago and dominated Cane. JVdF holds the pro14 record for tackles in a game (34). SOB has also dominated the NZ back row on various occasions. Leavy hasn't faced NZ yet but he is one of the form players in Europe and probably Ireland's best 7.

If you look at breakdown stats in Ireland's recent games v NZ it is clear enough that Ireland have had NZs measure at the breakdown and when you consider that Ireland have dominated possession in nearly every game they have played in the last 2 years if further adds credence to the idea that Ireland's backrow is performing at a very high level.

Ireland won a series v Australia in June with their 4th choice 7 Jordi Murphy on the field for 80% of the series.

Perhaps the difference between listing who you consider world class in my view top 3 players in each position vs picking a 15 of world class players vs picking the best team vs picking who is the most important players for a particular team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah true enough collapse walked into that.

I didn't walk into anything, its my opinion. I wouldn't pick Cane or Todd ahead of SOB, VdF or Leavy all of who I see as better players. Backrow is obviously a strength in Ireland as our game plan revolves around ruck domination and possession because of the quality of depth we have at backrow particularly at 7.

Ireland have dominated the breakdown and possession against NZ in all tests under Schmidt, where is the controversy?

Collapse2005 wrote:It isn't really unfounded though Billtong as Josh Van Der Flier our third choice 7 played the test v NZ in Chicago and dominated Cane. JVdF holds the pro14 record for tackles in a game (34). SOB has also dominated the NZ back row on various occasions. Leavy hasn't faced NZ yet but he is one of the form players in Europe and probably Ireland's best 7.

If you look at breakdown stats in Ireland's recent games v NZ it is clear enough that Ireland have had NZs measure at the breakdown and when you consider that Ireland have dominated possession in nearly every game they have played in the last 2 years if further adds credence to the idea that Ireland's backrow is performing at a very high level.

Ireland won a series v Australia in June with their 4th choice 7 Jordi Murphy on the field for 80% of the series.

Obviously I haven't seen the stats, nor can remember much of those games.

I will say this though. Statistics can be misleading , dominating the breakdown can mean you pulverised the opponent or the opponent didn't engage the breakdown.

It could mean you had majority of possesion due to turnovers or due to opposition kicking possession away.

My point is people too easily make statements that suit their reasoning, and often those statements cannot be backed up by hard evidence.

Example, Pieter Steph du Toit made a poor impression on LD, if he watched him this RC, his opinion would radically alter.

Biltong wrote:Lets use Etzebeth as an example.

People tend to wax rather lyrical about him, South African supporters love him, New Zealanders often comment he should have been a New Zealander.

Fact is, I have never wet myself when thinking about him, we have depth at lock like nobody's business.

Etzebeth is just one of them, each of our locks have certain individual skills others don't have, it is the combinations that works or doesn't

Etzebeth is a bit like O'Mahoney in Ireland. Good internationals but the legend of both players is bigger than the sum of their actual performances. Some players just seem to look and act the part more than others and therefore hoover up the plaudits.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps the difference between listing who you consider world class in my view top 3 players in each position vs picking a 15 of world class players vs picking the best team vs picking who is the most important players for a particular team.

I think wvery person has a different opinion about what world class means to them.

For me it is about whether a player interests me or not, and whther I like the talent and skills they possess.

A South African player that has made a name for himself in Europe this last season (Faf de Klerk) irritates the hell out of me.

I cannot stand his pedantic grubber backwards on the ball before he box kicks.

If I was a referee I would call "ball out" as soon as he start rolling the ball back.

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:It isn't really unfounded though Billtong as Josh Van Der Flier our third choice 7 played the test v NZ in Chicago and dominated Cane. JVdF holds the pro14 record for tackles in a game (34). SOB has also dominated the NZ back row on various occasions. Leavy hasn't faced NZ yet but he is one of the form players in Europe and probably Ireland's best 7.

If you look at breakdown stats in Ireland's recent games v NZ it is clear enough that Ireland have had NZs measure at the breakdown and when you consider that Ireland have dominated possession in nearly every game they have played in the last 2 years if further adds credence to the idea that Ireland's backrow is performing at a very high level.

Ireland won a series v Australia in June with their 4th choice 7 Jordi Murphy on the field for 80% of the series.

Obviously I haven't seen the stats, nor can remember much of those games.

I will say this though. Statistics can be misleading , dominating the breakdown can mean you pulverised the opponent or the opponent didn't engage the breakdown.

It could mean you had majority of possesion due to turnovers or due to opposition kicking possession away.

My point is people too easily make statements that suit their reasoning, and often those statements cannot be backed up by hard evidence.

Example, Pieter Steph du Toit made a poor impression on LD, if he watched him this RC, his opinion would radically alter.

Of course stats can be misleading but comparing one player to another is completely subjective unless you use some objective means such as stats and as fans we don't have much else to go on other than that as we don't have access to each teams full breakdown of KPIs.

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps the difference between listing who you consider world class in my view top 3 players in each position vs picking a 15 of world class players vs picking the best team vs picking who is the most important players for a particular team.

I think wvery person has a different opinion about what world class means to them.

For me it is about whether a player interests me or not, and whther I like the talent and skills they possess.

A South African player that has made a name for himself in Europe this last season (Faf de Klerk) irritates the hell out of me.

I cannot stand his pedantic grubber backwards on the ball before he box kicks.

If I was a referee I would call "ball out" as soon as he start rolling the ball back.

Faf for me made his name in the rugby championship this year, before that I though he was rubbish. Box kick is the weakest part of his game. Everything else has improved a lot. He is one of those guys who punches above his weight now.

I meant I walked into a mistake collapse.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I meant I walked into a mistake collapse.

I guess it is all down to where we place the punctuation.

Keep it clean, Tiger. This is a family show.

Or if I can be bothered half the time. UK shouldn't include Republic of Ireland to make things clear!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I meant I walked into a mistake collapse.

I see I was being pedantic obviously.

Australian journalist Paul Cully has Furlong, Murray, Sexton and Jon Davies from the Home Nations in his World XV. The only other non-All Black is Marx at hooker.

Although the other players are New Zealanders - Moody and Retallick in the pack, Rieko Ioane on the wing, and Ben Smith at full-back - Cully doesn't think there are obvious choices in the other positions.

Consequently, he hasn't named a partner for Retallick, anyone in the back row, an inside centre, or a second winger.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/the-world-xv-no-longer-all-black-but-there-s-no-gold-20181012-p509ch.html

I think before too long people will consider James Ryan as one of the best locks in the world and he will slot easily enough into teams like this. He probably needs to steal more lineout ball and secure his own a bit more often and he will be right up there. At age 22 everything he does seems almost effortless.

Itoje probably would be considered in the top two or three if he wasn't flogged to death by club and country.

As i said before I could`nt define World class,as everyone things his own players as best.I was. put on the
spot.THE best lock pairing is Whitelock and Retalick,NONE of the backrow players mentioned from NH
are better than Todd.Once your established it takes a lot to be expelled from an AB side,SAVEA isnt
first choice replacement for Todd when available,as to opinions.Mine are as valid as any here and
Thomas the tank has a far better skill set than Vunipola especially as a try scorer at 8.
IF Todd is so poor how come the huge sums offered him to play Premeir.top14 rugby that he turned down?

Don't use the phrase if you're unable to back yourself then Alan. And no not every opinion is as valid as another.

alanmackie6 wrote:As i said before I could`nt define World class,as everyone things his own players as best.I was. put on the
spot.THE best lock pairing is Whitelock and Retalick,NONE of the backrow players mentioned from NH
are better than Todd.Once your established it takes a lot to be expelled from an AB side,SAVEA isnt
first choice replacement for Todd when available,as to opinions.Mine are as valid as any here and
Thomas the tank has a far better skill set than Vunipola especially as a try scorer at 8.
IF Todd is so poor how come the huge sums offered him to play Premeir.top14 rugby that he turned down?

Todd isn't a bad player. Club rugby is a step below international rugby though and I wouldn't say that him being offered large sums by the French and English leagues means that much other than he is a good international player. Even Richie McCaw said that his biggest test was playing against Sean O'Brien as he set the bar for 7s in world rugby.

Given how all Ireland v NZ games under Schmidt have gone its kind of laughable to say Todd is better than SOB, VdF and Leavy.

In the test in 2016 the NZ Herald highlighted how much better the Irish pack was to NZs. They described SOB as "scarcely believable".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11751745

In the test in Chicago VdF who came off the bench pretty much dominated a much more experienced Sam Cane.

In the following test the NZ Herald gave SOB a 9 in their player ratings and Cane (lucky not to get a red card) a 5.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11751676

Given how all NZ v Ireland tests have gone under Schmidt with respect to the forwards I find it hard to believe that people think that a guy (Todd) who has received 14 caps in 5 years would breeze into the Ireland team. Seems ludicrous.

Collapse2005 wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:As i said before I could`nt define World class,as everyone things his own players as best.I was. put on the
spot.THE best lock pairing is Whitelock and Retalick,NONE of the backrow players mentioned from NH
are better than Todd.Once your established it takes a lot to be expelled from an AB side,SAVEA isnt
first choice replacement for Todd when available,as to opinions.Mine are as valid as any here and
Thomas the tank has a far better skill set than Vunipola especially as a try scorer at 8.
IF Todd is so poor how come the huge sums offered him to play Premeir.top14 rugby that he turned down?

Todd isn't a bad player. Club rugby is a step below international rugby though and I wouldn't say that him being offered large sums by the French and English leagues means that much other than he is a good international player. Even Richie McCaw said that his biggest test was playing against Sean O'Brien as he set the bar for 7s in world rugby.

Given how all Ireland v NZ games under Schmidt have gone its kind of laughable to say Todd is better than SOB, VdF and Leavy.

In the test in 2016 the NZ Herald highlighted how much better the Irish pack was to NZs. They described SOB as "scarcely believable".

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11751745

In the test in Chicago VdF who came off the bench pretty much dominated a much more experienced Sam Cane.

In the following test the NZ Herald gave SOB a 9 in their player ratings and Cane (lucky not to get a red card) a 5.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11751676

Given how all NZ v Ireland tests have gone under Schmidt with respect to the forwards I find it hard to believe that people think that a guy (Todd) who has received 14 caps in 5 years would breeze into the Ireland team. Seems ludicrous.

Geez you keep pinning a lot on the Chicago match like it is actually a common standard. That was a loseable match that in context of the year others werent, and werent lost.

Shall we judge Sextons performance on the 60 nil drubbing in NZ, or OGaras career on his 12 and every loss to the ABs, some really poor ones there. Yet we are told hes supposed to be a great player. How is that even remotely possible. ...because he played well against lesser teams.

Shall we summarise careers based on Irelands losses to Wales, Scotland? Teams the one I follow have never lost to in my lifetime.

Its far to selective thinking and youre either pinning Irelands success either on the on AB match went wasnt for much, or non AB matches. Ireland simply havent played the ABs as much as Oz or SA and if tbey had recently would have more losses. Not a lot to suggest that wouldnt be the case, especially if played in NZ.

Eh no I dont you moron I keep referencing the last three head to head games because those were the three games Schmidt was head coach.

Also what does Ronan O Gara have to do whether Todd is better than the Irish 7s. WTF are you talking about?

If anything history has shown that where teams have faced eachother more the more wins the lesser side tends to get. case in point Argentina v SA and Australia or France's record over NZ. France have played NZ almost double the amount of times that Ireland have.

Collapse2005 wrote:Eh no I dont you moron I keep referencing the last three head to head games because those were the three games Schmidt was head coach.

Also what does Ronan O Gara have to do whether Todd is better than the Irish 7s. WTF are you talking about?

Your very selective appraisal method. Chicago meant little to zip to the ABs yet you use it consistently as a barometer. Be ok if there were other wins like it but under threat the ABs walked into Dublin and smashed them for it. Thats what the ABs do. You pay for it if you sneak a win. It looks as though Hansen is taking them fairly seriously this time by the size of the squad and separating them out before the England and Ireland matches.

So we just might ve able to update those old barometers for you. We’ll see how your backrowers go against our so called poorer examples shall we?

Anyone saying ireland don't have a terrific set of flankers is lacking some sense.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Eh no I dont you moron I keep referencing the last three head to head games because those were the three games Schmidt was head coach.

Also what does Ronan O Gara have to do whether Todd is better than the Irish 7s. WTF are you talking about?

Your very selective appraisal method. Chicago meant little to zip to the ABs yet you use it consistently as a barometer. Be ok if there were other wins like it but under threat the ABs walked into Dublin and smashed them for it. Thats what the ABs do. You pay for it if you sneak a win. It looks as though Hansen is taking them fairly seriously this time by the size of the squad and separating them out before the England and Ireland matches.

So we just might ve able to update those old barometers for you. We’ll see how your backrowers go against our so called poorer examples shall we?

Well given in all three tests under Schmidt Ireland have out played their NZ counterparts I would have thought the pressure will be on the AB flankers.

Well guns has picked 9 potential world POTY and only an ozzie backrower? Doesnt sound convincing to me. I mean i thought they had at least six great backrowers or so. And none rates with Pocock whos out of pos at 8 and having a normal Pocock year. Hmmm...

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Eh no I dont you moron I keep referencing the last three head to head games because those were the three games Schmidt was head coach.

Also what does Ronan O Gara have to do whether Todd is better than the Irish 7s. WTF are you talking about?

Your very selective appraisal method. Chicago meant little to zip to the ABs yet you use it consistently as a barometer. Be ok if there were other wins like it but under threat the ABs walked into Dublin and smashed them for it. Thats what the ABs do. You pay for it if you sneak a win. It looks as though Hansen is taking them fairly seriously this time by the size of the squad and separating them out before the England and Ireland matches.

So we just might ve able to update those old barometers for you. We’ll see how your backrowers go against our so called poorer examples shall we?

Well given in all three tests under Schmidt Ireland have out played their NZ counterparts I would have thought the pressure will be on the AB flankers.

Yes, you would have thought that, but aagh, no, Im afraid thats not teally how it works. And believing a couple of players had better matches in three, yet losing two is part of the reason why. Your selective reasoning clouds the bigger picture. Who finds value in claiming better individuals head to head in a loss? Obviously their performances werent good enough to win, so Dining on scraps isnt something we are used to. But fill yer boots. In Chicago they all played poorly, because they lost. We dont go looking for the goods in that match. There werent any.

no that really is how it works. Its not selective reasoning you dope its a conversation as to whether Matt Todd is better than Irelands best three flankers.Winning is probably is not one of the more important indicators when comparing one 7 to another in any given game. There is very little to suggest he is better.

Dope and moron this morning. Hmmm.frustrated I see. We just see things differently, but sooner or later Ireland are gonna get thumped big time and that bubble of yours is going to burst. Youre over selling them and you dont see it. From the looks of it, Hansen apears to have gone for a set piece based selection by selecting one less back, our tights are all back so that forward and breakdown dominance you keep claiming is about to be severely tested. Furlong, Sexton, Murray the loosies, the lot. As they were in Dublin.