The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

Taylorman wrote:Dope and moron this morning. Hmmm.frustrated I see. We just see things differently, but sooner or later Ireland are gonna get thumped big time and that bubble of yours is going to burst. Youre over selling them and you dont see it. From the looks of it, Hansen apears to have gone for a set piece based selection by selecting one less back, our tights are all back so that forward and breakdown dominance you keep claiming is about to be severely tested. Furlong, Sexton, Murray the loosies, the lot. As they were in Dublin.

Anything can happen the future but you cant change the past. The last three games Irelands back row dominated New Zealands. Its really entertaining that you cant bring yourself to admit it.

NO my opinion is as valid as yours 7.5,even if you don`t like them

Not really. When in your post you acknowledge you're not giving an honest opinion but favouring your players.
Saying all opinions are the same value assumes that people are willing to give honest appraisal with the same knowledge.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Dope and moron this morning. Hmmm.frustrated I see. We just see things differently, but sooner or later Ireland are gonna get thumped big time and that bubble of yours is going to burst. Youre over selling them and you dont see it. From the looks of it, Hansen apears to have gone for a set piece based selection by selecting one less back, our tights are all back so that forward and breakdown dominance you keep claiming is about to be severely tested. Furlong, Sexton, Murray the loosies, the lot. As they were in Dublin.

Anything can happen the future but you cant change the past. The last three games Irelands back row dominated New Zealands. Its really entertaining that you cant bring yourself to admit it.

I dont know or care if they did or not. Youre the one pitching that story. What I know is Ireland have not won a test since 1905 and finally got up in of all places Chicago to stral one. Ive no doubt they played better. Its not a match I would bother analysing or watching again because its not a great test to compare anything with as a rule going forward. What I do know is it woke the ABs up enough to thump them at home two weeks later and thats the last meaningful test the two have played. So if you want to claim shallow victories from losses as I said, go for it. But youd be missing the wider picture.

You dont seem to have clue what the point being debated was. Do you?

If anything you keep bring up Chicago. Does it hurt or something?

Collapse2005 wrote:You dont seem to have  clue what the point being debated was. Do you?

If anything you keep bring up Chicago. Does it hurt or something?

Yeah I do, you just get stuck on the same record. Irelands loose forwards somehow dominated (how exactly remains unclear to all but you obviously, not that anyone else actually cares) in matches they lost. What sort of point is that? A veeeeery minor one if anything.

Cos it must mean they didnt dominate in the scrum, lineouts, backs or somewhere else cos they didnt...win... did they, so its a moot, and boiring, and unsubstantiated point. In fact Secretflys Cetera makes much more sense. So I think 'I'll leave you now' and I'll listen to that instead.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Furlong is the best TH around and by a fair bit imo. A world XV would still be the majority of the NZ side, but they'd be a few debatable choices.

I'm not a huge Cane fan but he'd make the England side at 7, not sure Todd would.

Only English players that would push for a world XV for me would be Mako V, Billy V, Farrell and May. If all our locks were on form, I'd throw in a few of those too.

Yeah I think Furlong gets more votes than others. Wouldnt touch headhunter Mako with a barge pole and think Moody could just about be up there as well but he has issues with his high tackling as well. Good thing is our props and hookers are all starting to reappear so good timing there. Nepo Laulala and Moody will match any set of props around by this time next year.

Agree on Retallick, I think hes the only dead set first pick in any one position, has no peer currently for the range of skills he has, though I think Ioane is current the best winger, at least I havent seen one better in the last two seasons. May and Dyantyi have a case. Pocock at 7 if he actually played there.

Smith and Murray, Barrett and Sexton are a horses for courses thing. Murray's pass is too slow for a NZ backline but works for Irelands keep the ball in front of the team style. Read isnt at his pre injury best but is still top 2 or 3. Cody Taylor and Marx are easily the standout hookers.

Potentially Laulala, Goodhue, Mo'unga could be up there next year or two. Ireland then SA look to have the better back rows at the moment.

Pretty much agree with all of that Taylor. bar the comment about Mako. I agree he's lost his head on a few occasions but you can't tarnish a player for a few incidents. Mako has an insane work rate for a prop and skill set to match top class backrowers, he's a top top player. Interestingly on Moody, I think he's actually a better scrummager than Mako but offers less around the park (How many times has that been said when comparing Nz v English props???). I do think Moody is a top player though and understand that you wouldn't necessarily change him.

To me, a world class player is the best in his position and to class Todd as world class is absurd in my eyes. He's 3rd choice at best for NZ and has never cut it on the top stage, he's be lucky to make a top 20 of flankers if I was drawing up a list. There's better 7's in pretty much every top tier nation.

My stab at a World XV ( a few players are hard to split) and some combinations wouldn't work.

1. M. Vunipola
2. Marxx
3. Furlong
4. Retalick
5. Nakarawa/Ryan
6. ? (erm...Stander? Struggling here)
7. Pocock
8. Read/Vuipola

9. Smith/Murray
10. Barrett
11. Ioane
12. ? (Another tough one....Farrell?? SBW when fully firing perhaps, maybe Beale, Henshaw)
13. ? (Erm...JD?)
14. May/Thomas
15. Folau/Smith

Obviously nobody will agree but that's my take. 6/12/13 are tough calls as I'm not sure anyone is really dominating the postion like say a Nonu or Kaino were a few years back. Any options on the ?

? JD being Jonathan Davis? Well said Sarge

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Furlong is the best TH around and by a fair bit imo. A world XV would still be the majority of the NZ side, but they'd be a few debatable choices.

I'm not a huge Cane fan but he'd make the England side at 7, not sure Todd would.

Only English players that would push for a world XV for me would be Mako V, Billy V, Farrell and May. If all our locks were on form, I'd throw in a few of those too.

Yeah I think Furlong gets more votes than others. Wouldnt touch headhunter Mako with a barge pole and think Moody could just about be up there as well but he has issues with his high tackling as well. Good thing is our props and hookers are all starting to reappear so good timing there. Nepo Laulala and Moody will match any set of props around by this time next year.

Agree on Retallick, I think hes the only dead set first pick in any one position, has no peer currently for the range of skills he has, though I think Ioane is current the best winger, at least I havent seen one better in the last two seasons. May and Dyantyi have a case. Pocock at 7 if he actually played there.

Smith and Murray, Barrett and Sexton are a horses for courses thing. Murray's pass is too slow for a NZ backline but works for Irelands keep the ball in front of the team style. Read isnt at his pre injury best but is still top 2 or 3. Cody Taylor and Marx are easily the standout hookers.

Potentially Laulala, Goodhue, Mo'unga could be up there next year or two. Ireland then SA look to have the better back rows at the moment.

Pretty much agree with all of that Taylor. bar the comment about Mako. I agree he's lost his head on a few occasions but you can't tarnish a player for a few incidents. Mako has an insane work rate for a prop and skill set to match top class backrowers, he's a top top player. Interestingly on Moody, I think he's actually a better scrummager than Mako but offers less around the park (How many times has that been said when comparing Nz v English props???). I do think Moody is a top player though and understand that you wouldn't necessarily change him.

To me, a world class player is the best in his position and to class Todd as world class is absurd in my eyes. He's 3rd choice at best for NZ and has never cut it on the top stage, he's be lucky to make a top 20 of flankers if I was drawing up a list. There's better 7's in pretty much every top tier nation.

My stab at a World XV ( a few players are hard to split) and some combinations wouldn't work.

1. M. Vunipola
2. Marxx
3. Furlong
4. Retalick
5. Nakarawa/Ryan
6. ? (erm...Stander? Struggling here)
7. Pocock
8. Read/Vuipola

9. Smith/Murray
10. Barrett
11. Ioane
12. ? (Another tough one....Farrell?? SBW when fully firing perhaps, maybe Beale, Henshaw)
13. ? (Erm...JD?)
14. May/Thomas
15. Folau/Smith

Obviously nobody will agree but that's my take. 6/12/13 are tough calls as I'm not sure anyone is really dominating the postion like say a Nonu or Kaino were a few years back. Any options on the ?

Yep pretty good side, reflects the last year or two. Id put du toit in there in your missing 6 and he complements Read and Pocock well..based solely on his RC, hes one of the main reasons for SAs resurgence, winds back the clock to the Shaulks and co. 12 maybe Farrell even though I dont like his style it suits the 2017-2018 game more. Difficulty playing besides Barrett is he drfts sideways a lot to look for openings. We are still trying to nail our 12 and 13 and Goodhue looks to have a huge future, a potential great the talk around here.

If I had the choice Id have Barrett at 15 over 10 and that means Sexton has to go to 10, though Id go sanchez purely because he has that rare instinct on the ball. A cheeky hollywood type previously hes really stepped up this year, much more rounded, and pace to burn.

The whole idea of this site is debating and airing our opinions,everyone posting has that right.
Forget the Ai`s how do you think your team will fare in the RWC?

Of course you're allowed to air opinions. No has said otherwise. World cup is 2 sets of games away so no idea.

Agree on Goodhue, I've followed for a few seasons now and he looks a real talent. A few years ago there was bags of quality centres, seems to be a transitioning area for most sides at the minute.

I would possibly throw in Huw Jones at centre, maybe a bit early, he has a great all-round game, maybe Hogg at FB too.

In the head to head stakes With the front row contingent back to near full strength...actual playing form at this level yet to be confirmed...be interesting how this group, Hansen et all will target Furlong in the Irish test. I think theyll have something ‘special’ for him as they know how key he is. Same with Murray and Farrell. Put those three off and youre nearly home anyway.

They also dont forget. SOBs treatment of Naholo and the complete denial wont have been lost on the fact that they havent played Ireland since the Lions.

ABs wont be out to play their own game vs England and Ireland so much as taking them both on at their own game.

Hansen has thrown in some very different planning for this tour so is clearly treating the two sides with a lot more respect than usual, the WCup on the horizon these act as pointers for the bigger fish.

Win or lose he’ll get a lot out of this and bar Cane and the form of several returning, cant argue with the availability at this time of the season.

First time Ive heard a side named and not heard of a couple of players with so many getting into the wider side straight from mitre 10, which I watch if theyre on but dont really follow as closely these days.

Taylorman wrote:In the head to head stakes With the front row contingent back to near full strength...actual playing form at this level yet to be confirmed...be interesting how this group, Hansen et all will target Furlong in the Irish test. I think theyll have something ‘special’ for him as they know how key he is. Same with Murray and Farrell. Put those three off and youre nearly home anyway.

They also dont forget. SOBs treatment of Naholo and the complete denial wont have been lost on the fact that they havent played Ireland since the Lions.

ABs wont be out to play their own game vs England and Ireland so much as taking them both on at their own game.

Hansen has thrown in some very different planning for this tour so is clearly treating the two sides with a lot more respect than usual, the WCup on the horizon these act as pointers for the bigger fish.

Win or lose he’ll get a lot out of this and bar Cane and the form of several returning, cant argue with the availability at this time of the season.

First time Ive heard a side named and not heard of a couple of players with so many getting into the wider side straight from mitre 10, which I watch if theyre on but dont really follow as closely these days.

That sounds about the level you would expect from a team that fail to recognise their own discipline issues.

"SOB treatment of Naholo" Bahahahaha. Whinging Kiwis.

Do you really think Owen Farrell plays for Ireland? Lol.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:In the head to head stakes With the front row contingent back to near full strength...actual playing form at this level yet to be confirmed...be interesting how this group, Hansen et all will target Furlong in the Irish test. I think theyll have something ‘special’ for him as they know how key he is. Same with Murray and Farrell. Put those three off and youre nearly home anyway.

They also dont forget. SOBs treatment of Naholo and the complete denial wont have been lost on the fact that they havent played Ireland since the Lions.

ABs wont be out to play their own game vs England and Ireland so much as taking them both on at their own game.

Hansen has thrown in some very different planning for this tour so is clearly treating the two sides with a lot more respect than usual, the WCup on the horizon these act as pointers for the bigger fish.

Win or lose he’ll get a lot out of this and bar Cane and the form of several returning, cant argue with the availability at this time of the season.

First time Ive heard a side named and not heard of a couple of players with so many getting into the wider side straight from mitre 10, which I watch if theyre on but dont really follow as closely these days.

That sounds about the level you would expect from a team that fail to recognise their own discipline issues.

"SOB treatment of Naholo" Bahahahaha. Whinging Kiwis.

Do you really think Owen Farrell plays for Ireland? Lol.

No, its you being an idiot. For Furlong and co it will be about how to combat his scrumming technique and around the field work from a tactical point of view. Theyve worn out players like Furlong by making them work in areas theyre not expecting to.

For SOB it will be a motivational reminder to watch out for eachother and to stay in support and alert.

Your response is a single ignoramus flat track bully schoolboy error that has no idea how the ABs operate under these conditions. And its why theyre number one, and youre not. Dumb, naive and there for the taking.

You honestly believe the AB success is built on a foundation of ill discipline?

Clown.

Haha I'm not number 1 you're right and neither are you. I'm sure Furlong will be fine, the Ireland front row generally gets replaced on the 60th minute anyway and Porter is a fine replacement.

The ABs success doesn't have a lot to do with ill discipline no but their failures do ala the Lions tour. They tend to get away with ill discipline more than other sides but it does seem that referees are no longer falling for ABs cynical play in particular the French ones who aren't prepared to put up with the ABs crap.

Not sure what you are saying Im a bully for? If its the very innocuous collision with Naholo on the Lions tour I find your hypocracy hilarious given you have expressed a belief that Cane's flying headbutt on Henshaw which left him out cold on a stretcher was a fair tackle.

In O'Brien's case he was joining a maul, Naholo unfortunately for him got his head in a bad position at the time. SOB didn't even wind his arm back or look down to where Naholo was. There is literally nothing to suggest SOB was aiming for him whereas with Cane its undeniable Cane was targeting Henshaw as there was no one else there. Surely Kiwi's are the biggest whingers in world rugby if this is the sort of warped logic that prevails as standard.

Just a warning in regards to anybody targeting Furlong.

Collapse2005 wrote:Haha I'm not number 1 you're right and neither are you. I'm sure Furlong will be fine, the Ireland front row generally gets replaced on the 60th minute anyway and Porter is a fine replacement.

The ABs success doesn't have a lot to do with ill discipline no but their failures do ala the Lions tour. They tend to get away with ill discipline more than other sides but it does seem that referees are no longer falling for ABs cynical play in particular the French ones who aren't prepared to put up with the ABs crap.

Not sure what you are saying Im a bully for? If its the very innocuous collision with Naholo on the Lions tour I find your hypocracy hilarious given you have expressed a belief that Cane's flying headbutt on Henshaw which left him out cold on a stretcher was a fair tackle.

In O'Brien's case he was joining a maul, Naholo unfortunately for him got his head in a bad position at the time. SOB didn't even wind his arm back or look down to where Naholo was. There is literally nothing to suggest SOB was aiming for him whereas with Cane its undeniable Cane was targeting Henshaw as there was no one else there. Surely Kiwi's are the biggest whingers in world rugby if this is the sort of warped logic that prevails as standard.

Geez you need help. You have no idea what is required to motivate players. I mentioned nothing about retribution in an ill disciplined sense yet your gutter mind swoops right into the trovel. I wrote it that way just to see if you would.

Too easy pal. between now and the match youd better get out of the gutter and start appraising the game from your own perspective, not from where you think the ABs are being naughty little boys. Cos I assure you that wont get you anywhere.

mudslinging aside, and I think there will be a bit of it prior to the two northern matches here we get to compare the approach to the Chicago match in terms of the preparation.

The day before the match we saw selfies of our players amongst the Soldier parade they do in Chicago at that time of the year. At the time I thought it was a bit odd but they looked relaxed enough for the task ahead.

Wrong.

This time we've gone another two years and firstly England then Ireland lay their markers down as challengers for the number one spot and indeed are closing in.

In response, Hansen has selected a 51 man split group, where Japan will be bypassed by the main group in terms of onfield participation. That is unprecedented and so far away from the prep for Chicago that it will provide an excellent comparison.

It means Ireland, and England will get to rehearse a potential quarter (and if the ABs win) semi final World cup scenario, or as near as you can get to it.

That puts Ireland under the type of pressure they will and have got in their previous 8 quarter finals. Perfect scenario for Schmidt to build on regardless of what happens.

And should England win, ABs dont get 'knocked out', but get to redeem themselves against Ireland, and we know what happened with that last time.

So Ireland get the AB's in a mood either way so this is gold for both Jones and Schmidt.

Of course thats assuming the AB's turn out to be the competition everyone assumes they'll be but whoever wins, or loses, will learn an awful lot about themselves.

And thats gotta be good for all three.

And its sure good having our guys read articles like these:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/107897804/why-ireland-can-really-trouble-the-all-blacks

(love the comments)...

A few points EVERY 10 is a target because he runs the game,France maybe it`s the 9,Crotty is the outstanding
12.Ireland have a great advantage Wayne Barnes at least one yellow card,endless scrum resets but at least
he`s consistent.NZ are THE most penalised first tier side in Rugby check the stats so much for the conspiracy
theorists.
Common theory beat up NZ seems to be the theme,been tried by experts [SA]seldom works,Billy Vunipola
sadly seems permanently injured.Hookers Creevy,Taylor,Marx are all outstanding as is Coles when fit be
interesting if Issy Dagg is back in the mix .
What is EJ`s fixation with RL players at 12 Teo?

Alan, you just love throwing statements , don't you?

"NZ is the most penalised side, so much for conspiracy theorists" well tells you two things, they get carded less per penalty than anyone else, and they rather concede a penalty than a try.

"Taking selfies, rather relaxed" which sounds like a justification for losing to Ireland.

"Common theory, beat up NZ, tried by SA" truth betold SA is the most successful side vs NZ, beating them up then seems to work.

"Wayne Barnes" sounds like you suggest Barnes is biased against NZ.

And eddie jones is obsessed with rugby league players at 12. It was daddy Farrell who played league not his son.

Taylorman wrote:And its sure good having our guys read articles like these:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/107897804/why-ireland-can-really-trouble-the-all-blacks

(love the comments)...

Can "your guys" read? Kiwis tend to be so ignorant of Irish rugby that would surprise me.

This article shows a much better albeit still limited understanding of Irish rugby than you ever have. The author actually knows Ryan and Leavy, he knows Irelands gane plan is built around ball retention and backrow dominance, wow.

Lowe is a fine player but he has also learned a lot from playing in Leinster which is hardly surprising given Leinster is one of the best club sides in world rugby. He has stated in interviews that as a set up it is way more organised with better facilities than he was used to at the Chiefs. His defending has also clearly improved a lot as he simply wasnt getting picked for big games last year as he wasnt up to standard. Also he had a good game in a game where they was no challenge from the opposition but I'm not sure he is the toast of Ireland and Leinster yet. If he stands out in the tougher games he will be. Playing for Leinster will make a big difference to Lowe and his development. Look at Lima Sopoanga at Wasps, he looked dreadful against Leinster and he has 18 caps for NZ.

The comments seem to be pinning a lot of NZs hopes around Murray being injured. Im fairly certain he will be out but that is probably a good thing. Id imagine Marmion will get selected and he played when Ireland halted Englands 18 match win streak. If not Marmion McGrath and Cooney are decent too. Its not ideal but it would be a good exercise for them.

Im more worried about Barnes reffing than Murray out as it tends to be a bit of a lottery with Barnes.

On matches played Aus[NSW] are most successful,SA NOT in the Pro era.Rather concede 3 than7 standard
procdure,all teams do it .I know Andy was a league great was referring to Teo.
Nz loss of Mick Byrnes has harmed there kicking game,Wayne Smith there defence,maybe back for RWC
was referring to Teo.

Te'o doesn't start for England and has been injured anyway. So fixation to picking a squad of players? Their not there by the way.

Its kind of funny how Ebop and Taylorman keep banging on about NZs depth and yet Sam Cane who lets face it is good but not great has been replaced by a guy contracted to the Panasonic Knights. In other words Steve Hansen had to go to the NZRU board to select an overseas contracted player and break their own selection rules. That said I suspect Todd might be a better 7 than Cane, so interested to see how he goes in November.

All teams have areas in their depth where they aren't as stocked as others. Including NZ, hooker and 7 are NZs gaps IMO. NZs back up 10s are also a bit light on international experience too but no more so than any other country.

Matt Todd is on a sabbatical in Japan and is still contracted to NZR and the Crusaders. The ABs are treating this tour as a dress rehearsal for next year and want their strongest squad available, hence bringing Todd in. In any other year they wouldn’t have bothered. If you think NZ’s rugby depth is laughable then that’s a strange opinion. Our hookers are Coles and Taylor and they’d be near the top of the pile. Some nations like Ireland can’t even generate a national coach to lead their side. That’s the real joke.

Schmidt came throught the Irish system from schools level to club level to international level. He is at least in part a product of the Irish system. I dont think I said NZs depth is laughable I said like all teams there are chinks. Yep Coles  and Taylor are good but there isnt much after.

Schmidt was an experienced coach in NZ before he went offshore to France and then Ireland. Ok, yes there may be perceived chinks in the ABs like all teams. No news there. Yes, after Coles and Taylor our current hookers aren’t much chop but we’re talking third choice here. Hopefully Asafo Aumua develops into the next cab off the rank after Coles/Taylor.

Regarding Todd, I’m not a big fan and never saw what all the fuss from Cantabrians was about. He’s a role player, smaller player, fetcher focus, handy enough and won’t let you down. Cane on the other hand imposes himself on teams. He’s not flash and doesn’t get the headlines but he is one tough cookie. Not many players walk off the pitch with a fractured neck and in hindsight that was a bit silly. We have a new 21 year old in Dalton Papali'i on tour. He’s big and strong in the Cane style and will tackle all day. He came through the junior NZ ranks. Hope he gets some game time on tour to give him international experience.

ebop wrote:Schmidt was an experienced coach in NZ before he went offshore to France and then Ireland. Ok, yes there may be perceived chinks in the ABs like all teams. No news there. Yes, after Coles and Taylor our current hookers aren’t much chop but we’re talking third choice here. Hopefully Asafo Aumua develops into the next cab off the rank after Coles/Taylor.

Regarding Todd, I’m not a big fan and never saw what all the fuss from Cantabrians was about. He’s a role player, smaller player, fetcher focus, handy enough and won’t let you down. Cane on the other hand imposes himself on teams. He’s not flash and doesn’t get the headlines but he is one tough cookie. Not many players walk off the pitch with a fractured neck and in hindsight that was a bit silly. We have a new 21 year old in Dalton Papali'i on tour. He’s big and strong in the Cane style and will tackle all day. He came through the junior NZ ranks. Hope he gets some game time on tour to give him international experience.

Ireland first then France then back to Ireland. He had experience coaching in NZ for sure but most of his experience at all levels has come in Europe.

International only. He was a NZ schools, domestic NPC and SR coach (assist) in NZ before he moved to Europe. He went to Europe as an ‘existing’ coach of a game called rugby. Who cares anyway. He’s a kiwi and he’s a NZ coach that developed further in Europe. Those are the facts.

Speaking of depth, NZ are taking the following players that are 26 or younger on tour this November. I’d be curious to see how this group of players compared to other nations in the same age range in terms of quality and experience.

26 or younger on November tour

Props
Karl Tu’inukuafe (25, North Harbour, 9)
Ofa Tuungafasi (26, Auckland, 22)
Tyrel Lomax (22, Tasman, uncapped)
Reuben O’Neill (23, Taranaki, uncapped)

Hooker
Asafo Aumua (20, Wellington, uncapped, two non-Tests)

Locks
Scott Barrett (23, Taranaki, 14)
Patrick Tuipulotu (25, Auckland, 19)

Loose Forwards
Vaea Fifita (26, Wellington, 7)
Dalton Papalii (21, Auckland, uncapped)
Ardie Savea (25, Wellington, 31)
Jackson Hemopo (24, Manawatu, 2)
Dillon Hunt (23, North Harbour, uncapped, one non-Test)

Halfbacks
TJ Perenara (26, Wellington, 51)
Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi (23, Taranaki, 1)
Mitchell Drummond (24, Canterbury, uncapped, one non-Test)
Bryn Hall (26, North Harbour, uncapped)

First five–eighths
Damian McKenzie (23, Waikato, 19)
Richie Mo’unga (24, Canterbury, 4)
Brett Cameron (21, Canterbury, uncapped)

Midfielders
Jack Goodhue (23, Northland, 5)
Anton Lienert-Brown (23, Waikato, 30)
Ngani Laumape (25, Manawatu, 8)
Matt Proctor (25, Wellington, uncapped)

Outside backs
Jordie Barrett (21, Taranaki, 7)
Rieko Ioane (21, Auckland, 20)
George Bridge (23, Canterbury, uncapped)
David Havili (23, Tasman, 3)

Players like Retallick, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Liam Squire, Waisake Naholo, Luke Whitelock, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Beauden Barrett are 27.

Let me think a sec...............................


Hmmmmm.............................................

Yes, thinking concluded. As a group I think it would be quite a bit better than the other groups.

Why oh why do Kiwi posters here feel the need to prove and re-prove what everyone already believes and admits to - New Zealand is a pretty damn good producer of rugby players....................

How many times do we have to do the maths? We still gotta try an beat yis though - it's how the game works.

ebop wrote:International only. He was a NZ schools, domestic NPC and SR coach (assist) in NZ before he moved to Europe. He went to Europe as an ‘existing’ coach of a game called rugby. Who cares anyway. He’s a kiwi and he’s a NZ coach that developed further in Europe. Those are the facts.

He is also Irish now too fact. First senior head coach role in Ireland. Leinster. He also coached at school level and club level in Ireland before he was a SR coach in NZ.

School: Wilson's Hospital
Club: Mullingar RFC
Province: Leinster
Country: Ireland

He has pretty much coached at all levels here dating back to the early 90s so thats about as Irish as you can get without being born here.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:International only. He was a NZ schools, domestic NPC and SR coach (assist) in NZ before he moved to Europe. He went to Europe as an ‘existing’ coach of a game called rugby. Who cares anyway. He’s a kiwi and he’s a NZ coach that developed further in Europe. Those are the facts.

He is also Irish now too fact. First senior head coach role in Ireland. Leinster. He also coached at school level and club level in Ireland before he was a SR coach in NZ.

School: Wilson's Hospital
Club: Mullingar RFC
Province: Leinster
Country: Ireland

He has pretty much coached at all levels here dating back to the early 90s so thats about as Irish as you can get without being born here.

geez, like trying to grab a teddy bear that aint your own.

He was a professional NZ coach when he got contracted to Ireland. Nothing else matters.

I dont care if he dies there, hes still a kiwi, hes still kiwi trained. That he chooses to coach lesser players is his choice. Simple.

SecretFly wrote:Let me think a sec...............................


Hmmmmm.............................................

Yes, thinking concluded.  As a group I think it would be quite a bit better than the other groups.

Why oh why do Kiwi posters here feel the need to prove and re-prove what everyone already believes and admits to - New Zealand is a pretty damn good producer of rugby players....................

How many times do we have to do the maths?  We still gotta try an beat yis though - it's how the game works.

Yes true fly, its all a game. Guns feels he needs to compare favourably in selective ways so its 'amusing' which anecdotes he uses. Silly I know.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:International only. He was a NZ schools, domestic NPC and SR coach (assist) in NZ before he moved to Europe. He went to Europe as an ‘existing’ coach of a game called rugby. Who cares anyway. He’s a kiwi and he’s a NZ coach that developed further in Europe. Those are the facts.

He is also Irish now too fact. First senior head coach role in Ireland. Leinster. He also coached at school level and club level in Ireland before he was a SR coach in NZ.

School: Wilson's Hospital
Club: Mullingar RFC
Province: Leinster
Country: Ireland

He has pretty much coached at all levels here dating back to the early 90s so thats about as Irish as you can get without being born here.

geez, like trying to grab a teddy bear that aint your own.

He was a professional NZ coach when he got contracted to Ireland. Nothing else matters.

I dont care if he dies there, hes still a kiwi, hes still kiwi trained. That he chooses to coach lesser players is his choice. Simple.

He coached in Ireland before he was a professional coach in NZ. He might be a Kiwi but he is also Irish.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:And its sure good having our guys read articles like these:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/107897804/why-ireland-can-really-trouble-the-all-blacks

(love the comments)...

Can "your guys" read? Kiwis tend to be so ignorant of Irish rugby that would surprise me.

This article shows a much better albeit still limited understanding of Irish rugby than you ever have. The author actually knows Ryan and Leavy, he knows Irelands gane plan is built around ball retention and backrow dominance, wow.

Lowe is a fine player but he has also learned a lot from playing in Leinster which is hardly surprising given Leinster is one of the best club sides in world rugby. He has stated in interviews that as a set up it is way more organised with better facilities than he was used to at the Chiefs. His defending has also clearly improved a lot as he simply wasnt getting picked for big games last year as he wasnt up to standard. Also he had a good game in a game where they was no challenge from the opposition but I'm not sure he is the toast of Ireland and Leinster yet. If he stands out in the tougher games he will be. Playing for Leinster will make a big difference to Lowe and his development. Look at Lima Sopoanga at Wasps, he looked dreadful against Leinster and he has 18 caps for NZ.

The comments seem to be pinning a lot of NZs hopes around Murray being injured. Im fairly certain he will be out but that is probably a good thing. Id imagine Marmion will get selected and he played when Ireland halted Englands 18 match win streak. If not Marmion McGrath and Cooney are decent too. Its not ideal but it would be a good exercise for them.

Im more worried about Barnes reffing than Murray out as it tends to be a bit of a lottery with Barnes.

aah the old hes learned a lot from xxxxxx

Funny how we hear that so often.

Lets be clear. He was selected to play for $$$$ that his club couldnt find in anyone else in the area, or country because if they had a talented player in Lowes class he would have been much cheaper.

Now he fulfils his boss's expectations its because hes learned from Irish rugby huh?

ok. You believe that. And ask yourself why others cant 'learn from irish rugby' to the extent that they no longer need to buy off another country's shelf?

In fact I heard a load of whining that he was a waste of a buy last year. But sure enough...the kiwi comes through...

Biltong wrote:Alan, you just love throwing statements , don't you?

"NZ is the most penalised side, so much for conspiracy theorists" well tells you two things, they get carded less per penalty than anyone else, and they rather concede a penalty than a try.

"Taking selfies, rather relaxed" which sounds like a justification for losing to Ireland.

"Common theory, beat up NZ, tried by SA" truth betold SA is the most successful side vs NZ, beating them up then seems to work.

"Wayne Barnes" sounds like you suggest Barnes is biased against NZ.

Hey the selfies was my comment Biltong. Not an excuse, it just didnt feel right at the time. I'm guessing they wont be marching down some street in Ireland with the locals the day before the Irish or English matches was all Im saying. I think its a fair comment in terms of the prep for an important match.

Youre full of excuses Taylorman

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:And its sure good having our guys read articles like these:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/107897804/why-ireland-can-really-trouble-the-all-blacks

(love the comments)...

Can "your guys" read? Kiwis tend to be so ignorant of Irish rugby that would surprise me.

This article shows a much better albeit still limited understanding of Irish rugby than you ever have. The author actually knows Ryan and Leavy, he knows Irelands gane plan is built around ball retention and backrow dominance, wow.

Lowe is a fine player but he has also learned a lot from playing in Leinster which is hardly surprising given Leinster is one of the best club sides in world rugby. He has stated in interviews that as a set up it is way more organised with better facilities than he was used to at the Chiefs. His defending has also clearly improved a lot as he simply wasnt getting picked for big games last year as he wasnt up to standard. Also he had a good game in a game where they was no challenge from the opposition but I'm not sure he is the toast of Ireland and Leinster yet. If he stands out in the tougher games he will be. Playing for Leinster will make a big difference to Lowe and his development. Look at Lima Sopoanga at Wasps, he looked dreadful against Leinster and he has 18 caps for NZ.

The comments seem to be pinning a lot of NZs hopes around Murray being injured. Im fairly certain he will be out but that is probably a good thing. Id imagine Marmion will get selected and he played when Ireland halted Englands 18 match win streak. If not Marmion McGrath and Cooney are decent too. Its not ideal but it would be a good exercise for them.

Im more worried about Barnes reffing than Murray out as it tends to be a bit of a lottery with Barnes.

aah the old hes learned a lot from xxxxxx

Funny how we hear that so often.

Lets be clear. He was selected to play for $$$$ that his club couldnt find in anyone else in the area, or country because if they had a talented player in Lowes class he would have been much cheaper.

Now he fulfils his boss's expectations its because hes learned from Irish rugby huh?

ok. You believe that. And ask yourself why others cant 'learn from irish rugby' to the extent that they no longer need to buy off another country's shelf?

In fact I heard a load of whining that he was a waste of a buy last year. But sure enough...the kiwi comes through...

Could you be any further up your own hole?

You really find it hard to believe he might have learned something in one of the top club sides in world rugby?

Schmidt isn’t Irish. He’s earning (I assume) a good wage in Ireland. Just like plenty of other people move around and fill a skills gap. You take citizenship because it makes it easier for you and your family. A job’s a job. Nothing against Schmidt, he’s just earning a Euro until somebody pays better. I think we would all do the same.

This is getting annoying now.

Stop telling untruths!  Joe IS Irish!  He was a member of Boyzone!  It doesn't get any more Irish than that, so quit hating on his Nationality!

To be fair more and more NH players are learning from top SH players. Must suck for SH players to not have them to learn from.

SH players are having less of an impact in European Competitions. Maybe only France where SH players are top of the pile and even then Aston broke the try record, savea can't even score one. I think in the Prem most of the top players would be English. Sarries and Exeter aren't exactly stocked with SH players. As professionalism has been run better each year the NH as they have got rid of the left overs from the 90s the standards have improved.

De Klerk looks amazing for SA not so much in the Prem. Lowe looks good but maybe top 5 player at Leinster at best, Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Ringrose, Henshaw ahead with Leavy possibly aswell. People like him in Ireland because of his down to earth attitude and hard work. If you heard his car interview you would see why.

Haha! I cannot unsee that now Fly, you fecker!

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:And its sure good having our guys read articles like these:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/107897804/why-ireland-can-really-trouble-the-all-blacks

(love the comments)...

Can "your guys" read? Kiwis tend to be so ignorant of Irish rugby that would surprise me.

This article shows a much better albeit still limited understanding of Irish rugby than you ever have. The author actually knows Ryan and Leavy, he knows Irelands gane plan is built around ball retention and backrow dominance, wow.

Lowe is a fine player but he has also learned a lot from playing in Leinster which is hardly surprising given Leinster is one of the best club sides in world rugby. He has stated in interviews that as a set up it is way more organised with better facilities than he was used to at the Chiefs. His defending has also clearly improved a lot as he simply wasnt getting picked for big games last year as he wasnt up to standard. Also he had a good game in a game where they was no challenge from the opposition but I'm not sure he is the toast of Ireland and Leinster yet. If he stands out in the tougher games he will be. Playing for Leinster will make a big difference to Lowe and his development. Look at Lima Sopoanga at Wasps, he looked dreadful against Leinster and he has 18 caps for NZ.

The comments seem to be pinning a lot of NZs hopes around Murray being injured. Im fairly certain he will be out but that is probably a good thing. Id imagine Marmion will get selected and he played when Ireland halted Englands 18 match win streak. If not Marmion McGrath and Cooney are decent too. Its not ideal but it would be a good exercise for them.

Im more worried about Barnes reffing than Murray out as it tends to be a bit of a lottery with Barnes.

aah the old hes learned a lot from xxxxxx

Funny how we hear that so often.

Lets be clear. He was selected to play for $$$$ that his club couldnt find in anyone else in the area, or country because if they had a talented player in Lowes class he would have been much cheaper.

Now he fulfils his boss's expectations its because hes learned from Irish rugby huh?

ok. You believe that. And ask yourself why others cant 'learn from irish rugby' to the extent that they no longer need to buy off another country's shelf?

In fact I heard a load of whining that he was a waste of a buy last year. But sure enough...the kiwi comes through...

Could you be any further up your own hole?

You really find it hard to believe he might have learned something in one of the top club sides in world rugby?

I find it ridiculous that hes the player he is because of Irish club rugby. Thats a joke, and we hear it all the time.

Lowe was almost an AB but lacked in certain areas. When you get to that level youre a very accomplished player. You probably think hes better than most of our Super rugby wingers for the very fact hes playing Irish rugby. Well, he aint. Journeyman here, star there.

Brendan wrote:To be fair more and more NH players are learning from top SH players.  Must suck for SH players to not have them to learn from.

SH players are having less of an impact in European Competitions.  Maybe only France where SH players are top of the pile and even then Aston broke the try record, savea can't even score one. I think in the Prem most of the top players would be English.  Sarries and Exeter aren't exactly stocked with SH players.  As professionalism has been run better each year the NH as they have got rid of the left overs from the 90s the standards have improved.

De Klerk looks amazing for SA not so much in the Prem.  Lowe looks good but maybe top 5 player at Leinster at best,  Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Ringrose, Henshaw ahead with Leavy possibly aswell.  People like him in Ireland because of his down to earth attitude and hard work.  If you heard his car interview you would see why.

Savea was a stupid buy. He'd lost his enthusiam here well before he left. No surprise at all. Dope deal. Some are so gullible.

Henshaw? Geez, strict journeyman. Very average.

Exeter? A look at the team list sees a lot of SHers from what I saw. Its a global side of Argies, boks, kiwis, ozzies etc. You'd wonder how they communicate.

Cyril wrote:Haha! I cannot unsee that now Fly, you fecker!

Was good though...