The Rugby Championship

by hugehandoff Fri 17 Aug 2018, 9:37 am

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

by **Biltong** Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Biltong wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cool. No players are poached by English clubs then as the rfu don't and can't dictate that.

FFS.

You are so hard work on here. You must be a nightmare to live with.

All the home nations are guilty of taking advantage of the three year residency rule, something might I add, that the SH countries do not do with players from the home nations. In fact, I do not think they do it at all.

They may be taking advantage of it, but not all of them have a deliberate plan to poach international quality players.

Yet I don't condone it.

It's something that really boils my pee.

Look, I know how things are, and collapse and 7 &1/2 are being annoying about it to say the least. I know that there are more people with Samoan/Tongan heritage living in New Zealand than in those two countries put together, and I know there are hundreds of thousands of Namibians and Zimbabweans living in South Africa, they move there for a better life.

Yes I know New Zealand and South Africa will get the picks of the litter with these players, but they are not luring them to their countries with the promise of caps and money.

Clubs/regions/provinces in the home nations go looking for players from the SH to bolster their ranks because they cannot fill them with home grown players, rather than working harder with what they have. There is murders up here at the moment, because Scarlets will not release a player from New Zealand that Scotland want to cap in the autumn internationals.

I never here of Welsh/Scottish/Irish/English players living in New Zealand/South Africa/Australia for three years and then playing for them. The SH countries seem to do better with what they have.

You understand exactly what we contend with, it does rub me up the wrong way to say the least.

Sadly, there is very little we can do about it.

For me the ideal situation would be if we could contract our players up to age 30, let them play in our domestic leagues, let them transfer their knowledge and skills to local junior players, let them guys represent SA until age 30, then they can go overseas for 3-5 years and make the big bucks.

That way the clubs benefit from players who are done with international rugby, the home country at least have their best players at home until age 30.

That way our local resources arent being depleted and exploited at younger and younger ages.

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Is that not what happened with Frizel and Vaea Fifita? Don't be so naïve.

Im sorry, but are there some new fandangled colleges on these islands that they could have chosen ?

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Is that not what happened with Frizel and Vaea Fifita? Don't be so naïve.

Im sorry, but are there some new fandangled colleges on these islands that they could have chosen ?

What is that supposed to mean ?

Would you deny a person of furthering himself because the fact that the Islands where they come from do not have the resources that New Zealand have ?

You do realise, that Samoa and Tonga cap more players from New Zealand than New Zealand cap from Tonga and Samoa ? New Zealand keep Tonga and Samoa in rugby.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:20 pm

Thanks for acknowledging your mistake lord and not just pass it by.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thanks for acknowledging your mistake lord and not just pass it by.

Are you going to answer the question, or are you going to keep ignoring it ?

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Is that not what happened with Frizel and Vaea Fifita? Don't be so naïve.

Im sorry, but are there some new fandangled colleges on these islands that they could have chosen ?

What is that supposed to mean ?

Would you deny a person of furthering himself because the fact that the Islands where they come from do not have the resources that New Zealand have ?

You do realise, that Samoa and Tonga cap more players from New Zealand than New Zealand cap from Tonga and Samoa ? New Zealand keep Tonga and Samoa in rugby.

How is that any different from players taking the oportunity to further themselves in Ireland or the UK. picard

Yes NZ keep the good Tongans and Samoans for themselves and send the duds back. So generous of them.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:26 pm

I missed it lord so I'll have a look back. You going to acknowledge ou misrepresented what I said in the meantime?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:28 pm

I can only see a question on ireland and project players.is there another one you posed lord as collapse answered it and will know much better than me?

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:34 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Is that not what happened with Frizel and Vaea Fifita? Don't be so naïve.

Im sorry, but are there some new fandangled colleges on these islands that they could have chosen ?

What is that supposed to mean ?

Would you deny a person of furthering himself because the fact that the Islands where they come from do not have the resources that New Zealand have ?

You do realise, that Samoa and Tonga cap more players from New Zealand than New Zealand cap from Tonga and Samoa ? New Zealand keep Tonga and Samoa in rugby.

How is that any different from players taking the oportunity to further themselves in Ireland or the UK.

Yes NZ keep the good Tongans and Samoans for themselves and send the duds back. So generous of them.

It's different, because the clubs and unions do not go out looking for players, the players down there, if they are good enough, they apply for the colleges and they go. Should New Zealand then cap them ? That's a different debate.

But what we do up here is vastly different.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You said that there are 2 issues poaching through lure of money and people like mtawarira and botha who make their own decisions. I'm simply saying that players will make their own decisions and money will be involved in all of those decisions.

Why can't you just admit that the home nations are guilty of this more than anyone ?

Hadliegh Parkes, he is now an established Welsh international, but there is no way on earth that he is Welsh, it's something that sticks in my craw.

Nathan Hughes for England is another, Stander for Ireland, and do not even get me started on Scotland.

There you go 7&1/2, in bold.

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Is that not what happened with Frizel and Vaea Fifita? Don't be so naïve.

Im sorry, but are there some new fandangled colleges on these islands that they could have chosen ?

What is that supposed to mean ?

Would you deny a person of furthering himself because the fact that the Islands where they come from do not have the resources that New Zealand have ?

You do realise, that Samoa and Tonga cap more players from New Zealand than New Zealand cap from Tonga and Samoa ? New Zealand keep Tonga and Samoa in rugby.

How is that any different from players taking the oportunity to further themselves in Ireland or the UK.

Yes NZ keep the good Tongans and Samoans for themselves and send the duds back. So generous of them.

It's different, because the clubs and unions do not go out looking for players, the players down there, if they are good enough, they apply for the colleges and they go. Should New Zealand then cap them ? That's a different debate.

But what we do up here is vastly different.

No youre wrong the two players I referenced were recruited by NZ sides

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:42 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:No youre wrong the two players I referenced were recruited by NZ sides

Whether you are correct or not, I will go with you on this one, then that is two, compared to hundreds that we have done up here.

If we did not take players from NZ, then perhaps they would not need to do that either.

Also, it is not a two way street when we do it.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:44 pm

7&1/2 seems to have lost his wi-fi connection as well. Rolling Eyes

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:No youre wrong the two players I referenced were recruited by NZ sides

Whether you are correct or not, I will go with you on this one, then that is two, compared to hundreds that we have done up here.

If we did not take players from NZ, then perhaps they would not need to do that either.

Also, it is not a two way street when we do it.

Hundreds? Id say two or three kiwis have played for Ireland which is about the same number of Irish people who have played for the ABs. NZ have had their fair share of imports as have most sides. Just because NZ get their imports from other places doesn't make it any different really.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 12:54 pm

I thought that was a rhetorical question ld as it's really a separate point which wasn't being discussed as it was acknowledged without challenge. The further points being made were re poaching vs decision of player which I was focusing on.
And I don't text and drive.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:08 pm

Ah, so you do not want to answer then ? Typical. Rolling Eyes

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:15 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:No youre wrong the two players I referenced were recruited by NZ sides

Whether you are correct or not, I will go with you on this one, then that is two, compared to hundreds that we have done up here.

If we did not take players from NZ, then perhaps they would not need to do that either.

Also, it is not a two way street when we do it.

Hundreds? Id say two or three kiwis have played for Ireland which is about the same number of Irish people who have played for the ABs. NZ have had their fair share of imports as have most sides. Just because NZ get their imports from other places doesn't make it any different really.

This not just about who has represented Ireland though, which I would suspect is more than two or three. Off the top of my head, there are these:-

Michel Bent
Rodney Ah You
Andy Ward
Isaac Boss
Ross Nesdale
Mike Mullins
Afoa

That's more than two or three for a start. Not to mention the Aussies and the Saffas you have capped. This is about the amount of SH players that are playing in in the NH with the potential to represent the country they are playing in.

We are rife for it up here. The home nations are the worst for it out of all the top tier rugby nations. Only you and 7&1/2 would rather not admit it.

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:No youre wrong the two players I referenced were recruited by NZ sides

Whether you are correct or not, I will go with you on this one, then that is two, compared to hundreds that we have done up here.

If we did not take players from NZ, then perhaps they would not need to do that either.

Also, it is not a two way street when we do it.

Hundreds? Id say two or three kiwis have played for Ireland which is about the same number of Irish people who have played for the ABs. NZ have had their fair share of imports as have most sides. Just because NZ get their imports from other places doesn't make it any different really.

This not just about who has represented Ireland though, which I would suspect is more than two or three. Off the top of my head, there are these:-

Michel Bent
Rodney Ah You
Andy Ward
Isaac Boss
Ross Nesdale
Mike Mullins
Afoa

That's more than two or three for a start. Not to mention the Aussies and the Saffas you have capped. This is about the amount of SH players that are playing in in the NH with the potential to represent the country they are playing in.

We are rife for it up here. The home nations are the worst for it out of all the top tier rugby nations. Only you and 7&1/2 would rather not admit it.

Mike Mullins, Michael Bent, Nesdale and Issac Boss qualified for Ireland through Irish ancestry not as project players.

Andy Ward also came from an Irish background I think but did qualify through residency. Andy Ward still lives in Ireland now and is more Irish than Kiwi at this stage, he has a job in Gaelic football.

John Afoa never played for Ireland he played for NZ.

Rodeny Ah You had about 1 cap for Ireland. Ross Nesdale you are going back about 20 years so not sure what the rules were back then but he was an Irish passport holder and it was his decision to come to the NH, he rang Newcastle Falcons himself and asked them if he could play for them. He had also written to about 20 Irish clubs because playing for Ireland was something he had thought about for a long time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/nesdale-has-come-a-long-way-1.132071

In any case the numbers are quite low, not the hundreds you reference. Rife is a bit of an exaggeration, certainly where Ireland is concerned.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:39 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:In any case the numbers are quite low, not the hundreds you reference. Rife is a bit of an exaggeration, certainly where Ireland is concerned.

No it isn't.

But unlike you, I am willing to admit it. I could probably list a whole team and subs of SH players who have played for Ireland through one way or another.

And look, there is more to come:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:41 pm

I find this quote quite interesting:-

As if their current bounty wasn’t enough to go on. With the likely additions of Bundee Aki and Tyler Bleyendaal, the Irish could easily line out this time next year with more backs born outside of Ireland than in it. wrote:

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:46 pm

It's already answered. One of the first points I made actually put forward a player who qualified on residency called hendre fourie, lord. The discussion from there was around biltong definition or view of.poaching vs player choosing free will etc. As I said I didn't think you had read and understood that and it looks like you didn't.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's already answered. One of the first points I made actually put forward a player who qualified on residency called hendre fourie, lord. The discussion from there was around biltong definition or view of.poaching vs player choosing free will etc. As I said I didn't think you had read and understood that and it looks like you didn't.

How much do clubs get off the RFU if the player is EQ ?

And NO, you have not answered the question.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:48 pm

And again further down you're repeating a suggestion that I think england haven't picked on residency when I clearly haven't.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:53 pm

Just answer the question 7&1/2.

Why can't you just admit that the home nations are guilty of this more than anyone ?

And in this question, I am talking about capping players born in the SH big three nations.

by BamBam Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:54 pm

I think Dowlais is just jealous that Wales can only attract the dross from the SH - Parkes being an exception

If Wales were getting top quality players into the national side, he'd be far less vocal. As it is, he's just using the inferiority complex as a stick to beat the Irish and English with

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:54 pm

To be explicit then I'm aware england have capped players based on residency as confirmed by mentioning hendre fourie before your question. Never said anything to suggest they hadn't.
I don't know how much the club's get money wise for England qualified players.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:55 pm

You keep suggesting I didn't know england have capped residency based players lord which is silly as I mentioned it before you did.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:58 pm

You are still not answering the question. Rolling Eyes

I also see collapse has gone quiet on the subject. Very Happy

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 3:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't know how much the club's get money wise for England qualified players.

But they do get a payment ?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:00 pm

In relation to the more than anyone else you mean? Fair enough I have no idea of the number of those players capped by the likes of samoa or Japan or any of the lower placed sides. I don't know the answer do you? It's a sidestep from the topic I was focusing on so I'm at a loss if your statement or question is true.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:01 pm

Yes the club's gt a payment for England qualified players lord. As mentioned by me further up in the thread before you mentioned it. Been ages since I read the rulings so can't remember the specifics.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes the club's gt a payment for England qualified players lord. As mentioned by me further up in the thread before you mentioned it. Been ages since I read the rulings so can't remember the specifics.

Good at least you have answered one question.

So, it is in the interest to get these SH English Qualified to get the £££££ ?

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:In any case the numbers are quite low, not the hundreds you reference. Rife is a bit of an exaggeration, certainly where Ireland is concerned.

No it isn't.

But unlike you, I am willing to admit it. I could probably list a whole team and subs of SH players who have played for Ireland through one way or another.

And look, there is more to come:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/

You were referring to Kiwis, the number is low with respect to Kiwis. Aki, Ward, Payne and Ah You are the only ones that qualified through residency that I can think of. Ah You got a couple of caps, Ward was/is quite Irish anyway which leaves Payne and Aki as the main ones.

The article you mention is meaningless, they name three players, one who is highly unlikely to be capped by Ireland (Bleyendall) and Stander and Aki two of the few project players to actually play for Ireland at the moment. It is used by the IRFU as a contingency at the very most.

The "IQ programme" mentioned in the article means Irish qualified, all it does is track Irish qualified players playing overseas be they Irishmen playing abroad or players with Irish passports. It isn't a project player system that you think.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In relation to the more than anyone else you mean? Fair enough I have no idea of the number of those players capped by the likes of samoa or Japan or any of the lower placed sides. I don't know the answer do you? It's a sidestep from the topic I was focusing on so I'm at a loss if your statement or question is true.

Again, not answering the question, why will you not give a simple answer ?

The home nations are the worst in the world for capping players from other countries, why wont you admit it ?

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:06 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:In any case the numbers are quite low, not the hundreds you reference. Rife is a bit of an exaggeration, certainly where Ireland is concerned.

No it isn't.

But unlike you, I am willing to admit it. I could probably list a whole team and subs of SH players who have played for Ireland through one way or another.

And look, there is more to come:-

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-irish-rugby-looking-import-foreign-players/

You were referring to Kiwis, the number is low with respect to Kiwis. Aki, Ward, Payne and Ah You are the only ones that qualified through residency that I can think of. Ah You got a couple of caps, Ward was/is quite Irish anyway which leaves Payne and Aki as the main ones.

The article you mention is meaningless, they name three players, one who is highly unlikely to be capped by Ireland (Bleyendall) and Stander and Aki two of the few project players to actually play for Ireland at the moment. It is used by the IRFU as a contingency at the very most.

It's only meaningless in your eyes because it does not fit your agenda.

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:07 pm

Its meaningless because it doesn't fit your agenda either. IQ stands for Irish qualified. The system in the article just tracks progress of Irish qualified players playing abroad. picard

In other words players that are already Irish qualified you big eejit.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:10 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Its meaningless because it doesn't fit your agenda either. IQ stands for Irish qualified. The system in the article just tracks progress of Irish qualified players playing abroad.

Yes, so the IRFU are going looking for them in other countries, there's a word for that..........

POACHING

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Its meaningless because it doesn't fit your agenda either. IQ stands for Irish qualified. The system in the article just tracks progress of Irish qualified players playing abroad.

Yes, so the IRFU are going looking for them in other countries, there's a word for that..........

POACHING

They're already Irish you big dope. Its not poaching to track the progress of Simon Zebo playing in Racing Metro. That's the sort of thing the IQ programme does.

You are putting a whole lot of stock in a badly written fan article that literally says nothing about project players.

Yes Ireland has some players that have qualified through residency but not the numbers you seem to think. There are 5 at the moment, 2 probably get in the side, not unlike the numbers in NZ.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:24 pm

Well you know my answer on your question lord as I posted about that exact thing on this thread before you asked the question.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:26 pm

To answer your repeated question I don't know the numbers of residency players across ech nation so i don't know. Wouldn't even be able to tell you those for England in the last 5 years without a bit of research let alone across longer than that and across all teams. Doesn't bother me if that is true though as I was never focusing on it. If that's your point ok you know the figures I don't. You seem to care I don't.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:29 pm

So no answer then.

OK.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:30 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Its meaningless because it doesn't fit your agenda either. IQ stands for Irish qualified. The system in the article just tracks progress of Irish qualified players playing abroad.

Yes, so the IRFU are going looking for them in other countries, there's a word for that..........

POACHING

They're already Irish you big dope. Its not poaching to track the progress of Simon Zebo playing in Racing Metro. That's the sort of thing the IQ programme does.

You are putting a whole lot of stock in a badly written fan article that literally says nothing about project players.

Yes Ireland has some players that have qualified through residency but not the numbers you seem to think. There are 5 at the moment, 2 probably get in the side, not unlike the numbers in NZ.

Have you watched the video, or read the article ? Because it does not sound like you have.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:32 pm

Not no answer so much as I don't know the answer. I don't think you do either lord.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:35 pm

Collapse, read this bit:-

It’s not an isolated incident either. David Nucifora and the IRFU have set up a dedicated ‘IQ Rugby’ programme for overseas players. The programme launched this year aims to combat the recent rule changes and scout out potential future Irish stars playing their rugby overseas. wrote:

Now tell me a story about that.

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Its meaningless because it doesn't fit your agenda either. IQ stands for Irish qualified. The system in the article just tracks progress of Irish qualified players playing abroad.

Yes, so the IRFU are going looking for them in other countries, there's a word for that..........

POACHING

They're already Irish you big dope. Its not poaching to track the progress of Simon Zebo playing in Racing Metro. That's the sort of thing the IQ programme does.

You are putting a whole lot of stock in a badly written fan article that literally says nothing about project players.

Yes Ireland has some players that have qualified through residency but not the numbers you seem to think. There are 5 at the moment, 2 probably get in the side, not unlike the numbers in NZ.

Have you watched the video, or read the article ? Because it does not sound like you have.

by LordDowlais Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not no answer so much as I don't know the answer. I don't think you do either lord.

Read this, and tell me if you think it's right or wrong.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/england-rugby-eddie-jones-foreign-born-players-willi-heinz-jason-woodward-argentina-tour-a7739626.html

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Collapse, read this bit:-

Now tell me a story about that.

They are already Irish qualified. The hint is in the name "IQ".

Read from a proper source:

http://www.irishrugby.ie/provincial/exiles/39718.php#.W89AgOTQamQ

"We recently employed Joe Lydon as head of the IQ Rugby programme. Joe's role will be to oversee the identification and development of all Irish qualified players that are overseas. "

In simple English for you, players that are already Irish qualified playing abroad. NOT project players you dope!!!! If anything this means the IRFU's focus is to move away from capping players based on residency.

The article says they want more players like Kieran Marmion who is Irish but lived in Wales. You seemed to have completely misunderstood the point of the IQ programme.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:43 pm

You've linked an article there lord which talks of Hughes and the vunipola s which we're all obviously aware of. I'm sure like I said there'd be more if I went back 5 years bit I couldn't tell you off the top of my head and I certainly couldn't tell you those representing other nations. As I also said I doubt you could without painstakingly going through each and every squad. So my answer is I don't know and it's a fair bet you don't either.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:44 pm

Oh re reading your post do you mean whether picking players like heinz is right or wrong? If that's the case yes as long as it's within the rules it's ok. But neither heinz or woodward are residency players

by Collapse2005 Tue 23 Oct 2018, 4:45 pm

I think Lord just reads headlines and is clearly fairly gullible.

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