The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

I know. Love it when I'm proved correct!

What are the thoughts for Saturdays game between sa and nz then? Is it excuses in early time in case sa get back to back wins?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are the thoughts for Saturdays game between sa and nz then? Is it excuses in early time in case sa get back to back wins?

I think we have lost all our games post isolation at Loftus against them. So I don't feel too confident. Hope we win, but I think we probably punched above our weight last time and got a bit lucky. Definitely think we are on an upwards trajectory though, so who knows.

Awful place to play for an away side. The altutude does seem to give SA a pretty big advantage.

Yeah sa did ride their luck at times most notably with Barrett s lack of composure with the boot. Will be interesting to see if sa get ahead nearly how that would affect nz. They do tend to come out swinging after a loss. A bit literally sometimes!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah sa did ride their luck at times most notably with Barrett s lack of composure with the boot. Will be interesting to see if sa get ahead nearly how that would affect nz. They do tend to come out swinging after a loss. A bit literally sometimes!

They did but I think that Nigel Owens was quite biased towards NZ and really allowed them build momentum in the final quarter. Not as big an Owens fans as everyone else seems to be. In fairness he is a good ref but has his flaws.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's a class coach collapse. There's been very little change in gatlands team and I'd prefer jones tbh.

Fair enough. I will say he has exceeded my expectations a little. I wasn't surprised at all by England's dip this year as it seems to be the natural course of all Eddie Jones tenures however, in this instance he has handled the England media and public quite well and does seem to have everyone on-side outside the England camp. However, if I was an England fan Id be worried about the turn over of coaching staff and Eddie's inability to reign himself in on occasions where he becomes his own worst enemy.

I think we saw a glimpse of this when England played Italy last year and Eddie rather than talking ownership for his teams performance kept saying that it wasn't a rugby match absolving himself of any blame for a fairly poor England performance. It was fairly petulant. Similarly his comments about Ireland although harmless and meaningless its the sort of thing that just puts unnecessary attention on yourself which has always been Eddies achilleas heel.

I also like that he does seem to put a lot of effort in constantly upgrading his rugby knowledge and improving himself as a coach through engaging with others. In a recent interview he said that he was told early on in his career as a player that if you want to learn from other players always approach the guys who are about to retire as they have no reasons left to not share their knowledge, Jones claims that he constantly does this in his coaching career and approaches veteran coaches to impart their knowledge and has gained a lot from it. He also said that he went to Pep Guardiola (football) and took elements of his "ticky tacky"(?) tactics to help him devise a game plan that would work for a smaller team (japan) to beat bigger sides (SA). Cant fault his desire to experiment with tactics.

The way he handles media etc I think is just down to individual personalities. One style doesn't work always. See ferguson for taking pops at refs and taking focus away from players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The way he handles media etc I think is just down to individual personalities.  One style doesn't work always. See ferguson for taking pops at refs and taking focus away from players.

I wouldn't have many nice things to say about Alex Ferguson. Think he is an awful character but that's just my opinion. Don't want to side track this into a football convo though as while I do really like the England rugby team (I know hard to believe but I have always been a fan) and players I really don't like English football.

Bred in Glasgow and Aberdeen can't blame us.

Great comeback from 30-13 down to pip the Boks 32-30 at the death. ABs messy as until the 70 minute mark then played error free, controlling rugby to get the two tries.

It was a masterstroke by Erasmus to take off his most influential players, letting the juniors get some big match experience and at the same time not inflate their egos by winning a dead rubber - even the TMO was on message!

Yes that’s right, if you want to beat the ABs, don’t bring on any no-name substitutes. You must play all 15 for the full 80 even if they fail HIAs or are cramping up. It’s a well known fact.

Great game, Boks played well NZ maybe switched off because the Rc was in the bag,already.Perenara
is a better starter in a dogfight,Naholo`s defence exposed SBW was non effective.Fafke was offside at
scrum most of the time rear most foot being offside line.
Best options probably B.Barrett 15,B.Smith,Ioane wing,Goodhue,Crotty ,Maunga,Perenara,hopefully
the wounded forwards including Coles will be available for Ai`s.
It was thought that playing on the high veldt would mean Boks stronger finishing,no chance AB`s play
80plus and are always dangerous at the end of a half.
Stuart Barnes Bias was palpable snorting about All Black magic to win it 30-13 down then 19 unanswered points
this year they have`nt really clicked but still managed to win ugly

alanmackie6 wrote:
this year they have`nt really clicked but still managed to win ugly

?

welcome to ugly rugby, NZ

Signed IRFU.

ebop wrote:Yes that’s right, if you want to beat the ABs, don’t bring on any no-name substitutes. You must play all 15 for the full 80 even if they fail HIAs or are cramping up. It’s a well known fact.

Yeah cause Ireland didnt bring on a novice at out half against NZ for the last 10 minutes when we won or empty the bench except for two players.

Rassie was right to trust his squad.

alanmackie6 wrote:
this year they have`nt really clicked but still managed to win ugly

In what chuffing universe did NZ win ugly this season? Which game did they grind out a win? They did well to sneak the game yesterday but scoring at the death is not winning ugly.

What is it then?playing with half first choice pack injured,30-12 down then 19 unanswered points
in 10 or so minutes from the end after being under the cosh for rest of the game.

Having a bit of luck.

And that's not criticism.

They found a way to win playing their normal game. They executed their skills with a precision that failed them at the end of the reverse fixtures.

Now if their backs had been misfiring and they had to grind it out up front, kicking to the corners, driving some mauls and lumbering along.......

It would seem you watched a different game to me the last two tries came from precisely those tactics

You watch with one eye though.

How long is retallick out for?

In the words of the poet a win is a win no matter how,most walking wounded expected back for
AI`s.Cane has a broken neck .RWC now unlikely if he ever recovers enough to play Todd his
likely replacement even Coles may get a run.

Jesus thats terrible. Hope Cane recovers well.

Yeah bad for cane. At least it sounds like he'll recover his general health from first medical thoughts.
Nz really need a few of their big names back they're struggling at the moment.

Cane has a neck fracture, not of the paralyzing or life changing kind. Theyre keeping him in SA for a week longer. Doc expects the op will fix the problem once a bone grows back to full strength over about three months. So he gets a break, hes stuck his head in one dark corner too many again and hopefully he gets a good break to see whether he wants to play again.

Savea will naturally take the 7 start as hes been playing well, is now good cover at 8 as well. Todd might come in but I doubt its a Hansen thing to go backwards at this time. I think he’ll go for a new young 7 with the time we have for the world cup.

In aTodds favour is hes more of a support and carry 7 than the bashers we have now, but his age and experience in black doesnt gel with hansen often. Might be a good AIs filler though.

Personally really like like savea. If this gets hik the run of games to cement himself I think it'll only be good for nz. Clearly it hinders them in the short term as an already weak ish area is now set for more change. Read really didn't look himself yesterday probably due to how well sa upped the intensity.

Hansen rates Todd for his loyalty,expect him to figure in RWC squad,never has a bad game at any level.
Read is due to have an operation on his back,Sam Whitelock is a better choice as captain.Savea like Luke Whitelock is usefull cover for 6-7-8.

Except Todds not in the squad now, so hes not currently rating him high enough. Cane may still return but agree Todd could go on the AI's which after some really odd RC matches make them more interesting.

We have our banana peel match in Tokyo next then onwards and upwards. Retallick should be back for that. Moody Franks and Laulala need to return too. Not sure if Coles will make it back now. Cody Taylor sure is fitting in well as the extra winger/ centre at times, a lot of skills that one has.

Savea is a quality backrower, it'll be good to see him get more game time.

I hope Cane has a full recovery.

Great adverts for the RC those matches on the weekend as well. Fantastic viewing.

I had this really bad feeling in the last 10 minutes. Last time I felt it was when we needed 1 run to win against Australia in the 1999 cricket world cup.

Think we played well until then though. But we all know that you have to play all 80-85 minutes to beat the All Blacks if you are in a position to do so.

Don`t think Todd would have gone to Japan without "Shags"blessing certain for the RWC
squad.A 51 man squad for the november tour sadly some say Cane should retire for his own
good to many Hia`s.

Taylorman wrote:Great adverts for the RC those matches on the weekend as well. Fantastic viewing.

It was and it wasnt really. Better than last weekend but its obvious enough that all sides are way behind NZ still. Yes SA did great and should have won but they still managed losses to weak enough Argentina and Australia sides. Game of the weekend.

Argentina can be sublime one minute and absolutely dire the next, Australia too to a marginally lesser extent. Some of the defending in their match was really poor IMO.

I dont think many teams would want to get Argentina in the world cup because they have the ability to score out of no where but I dont think they will do that well as they seem very prone to imploding with a similar frequency.

Horrible injury for Cane and first and foremost hope he gets better he is obviously a very good international player. However, Ireland have traditionally done quite well at the breakdown with Cane in the ABs side so it will be interesting to see in Nov how his replacement/s do.

Leavy/JdF/SOB are all back playing with Leinster now and looking very strong. Eany, meany, miney mo... whoever starts for the ABs they will be facing a tough task.

The good news for Cane is the NZ Dr is talking 3.months out. Could have been very different.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The good news for Cane is the NZ Dr is talking 3.months out. Could have been very different.

Good news.

Collapse2005 wrote:Horrible injury for Cane and first and foremost hope he gets better he is obviously a very good international player. However, Ireland have traditionally done quite well at the breakdown with Cane in the ABs side so it will be interesting to see in Nov how his replacement/s do.

Leavy/JdF/SOB are all back playing with Leinster now and looking very strong. Eany, meany, miney mo... whoever starts for the ABs they will be facing a tough task.

Yes, I can see them trembling now.

Well they should as SOB and JdF have got the better of their NZ counterparts when they have faced them in the past and they are probably both behind Leavy in the pecking order who is on fire. Ignorance is bliss though I suppose.

Ignorance is the right word.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Great adverts for the RC those matches on the weekend as well. Fantastic viewing.

It was and it wasnt really. Better than last weekend but its obvious enough that all sides are way behind NZ still. Yes SA did great and should have won but they still managed losses to weak enough Argentina and Australia sides. Game of the weekend.

Argentina can be sublime one minute and absolutely dire the next, Australia too to a marginally lesser extent. Some of the defending in their match was really poor IMO.

I dont think many teams would want to get Argentina in the world cup because they have the ability to score out of no where but I dont think they will do that well as they seem very prone to imploding with a similar frequency.

Improvements are coming steadily for both Argie and SA under the new coaches Ledesma and Rassie. Both teams will improve by next year. Argie needs to get out of the England France pool and frankly all three are a toss up for two, but a win vs either Wales or Oz could have Argie in the semis again quite easily.

Ireland have it tough. Likely vs SA quarters Rassie has NZ then Italy and two qualifiers to manage through to next round.

All he has to do is focus on Italy, play a complete second team versus NZ and pick up the qualifiers to qualify second. Easiest pool youd see in a long time.Trouble there is both NZ and SA come out of pool play with the worst prep you could want, so clearly Hansen will be experimenting to create pressure. Its a horrid prep scenario, especially if SA play seconds. Odd how we get by far our easiest matches in years at the games premier event.

Ireland have to win their pool to avoid NZ so will have it tough in pool...Scotland and Samoa are must wins, Japan a potential banana skin match, especially if they play as many overseas players as they have been lately.

Ireland come out a bit ragged and face a clearly fresh NZ or SA. By that stage Ireland are more likely to be carrying injuries, as they did last world cup. Not a good prospect. Then if they manage that, they still need to win two more. Can see now why Ireland dont progress well. Theyre home vs away efforts are skewed more than most towards home and they always have to battle in pool play. Theyre not going to just walk through this one.

SAs back row is also every bit as good as Irelands, Du Toits had a stunning RC, as has Louw and Kolisi, so no gimmes there. In Dyantyi a star is in the making, can sniff out the line with little space and is possibly the quickest player in the game at the moment. Faf is Faf and the Pollard, de Allande, Kriel backline is a sign of SA moving back to its roots, big hard running backs. Marx has claim to worlds best hooker and Le Roux is back to his best. A win in NZ and an all but in the return match suggests theyre well on the mend.

England and oz are so up and down theyre not worth discussing yet, both are winning and dropping matches they should and shouldnt with so much inconsistency who knows.

Hmm...so Ireland have to play hard rugby that might create injuries and all their opponents just have sit on a bus with headphones on and cruise through to the final stages?


This f**king WC isn't fair! I smell a rat!

There is a very real difference at the breakdown when Cane or Todd play,with Todd they rule the breakdown,Cane approachs it in a different way.Todd is a classic 7 and world class at it,Cane more
a 6.5.
AI`s with NH sides currently 2,3,4 will be very interesting,especially if clubs don`t release SH
players.THAT really is taking the p***.

SecretFly wrote:Hmm...so Ireland have to play hard rugby that might create injuries and all their opponents just have sit on a bus with headphones on and cruise through to the final stages?


This f**king WC isn't fair!  I smell a rat!

For the ABs its like this every time, compare the for and againsts with anyone and the numbers are staggering played and won 28. 1600+ for300+ against at 60-12 and 9 tries to 1.

Thats why Hansen has to create things in pool, because his team does probably less than training sessions every four years in pool play. Theyre worthless to the point of detrimental, that it serves their wuarterfinalists much better. France felt the impact of Hansens pool ‘ witholds’ and no doubt he will do that again. Those matches could be a farce.

Next year with Italy and two qualifiers makes it the worst ever.

With a stronger SA Ireland will certainly face a fresh SA or NZ. It just depends whether their tougher matches will give them an advantage.

If an international side calls up a player during an international window they can't stop the player leaving.
Also todd is world class under the very loosest definition of the phrase

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Great adverts for the RC those matches on the weekend as well. Fantastic viewing.

It was and it wasnt really. Better than last weekend but its obvious enough that all sides are way behind NZ still. Yes SA did great and should have won but they still managed losses to weak enough Argentina and Australia sides. Game of the weekend.

Argentina can be sublime one minute and absolutely dire the next, Australia too to a marginally lesser extent. Some of the defending in their match was really poor IMO.

I dont think many teams would want to get Argentina in the world cup because they have the ability to score out of no where but I dont think they will do that well as they seem very prone to imploding with a similar frequency.

Improvements are coming steadily for both Argie and SA under the new coaches Ledesma and Rassie. Both teams will improve by next year. Argie needs to get out of the England France pool and frankly all three are a toss up for two, but a win vs either Wales or Oz could have Argie in the semis again quite easily.

Ireland have it tough. Likely vs SA quarters Rassie has NZ then Italy and two qualifiers to manage through to next round.

All he has to do is focus on Italy, play a complete second team versus NZ and pick up the qualifiers to qualify second. Easiest pool youd see in a long time.Trouble there is both NZ and SA come out of pool play with the worst prep you could want, so clearly Hansen will be experimenting to create pressure. Its a horrid prep scenario, especially if SA play seconds. Odd how we get by far our easiest matches in years at the games premier event.

Ireland have to win their pool to avoid NZ so will have it tough in pool...Scotland and Samoa are must wins, Japan a potential banana skin match, especially if they play as many overseas players as they have been lately.

Ireland come out a bit ragged and face a clearly fresh NZ or SA. By that stage Ireland are more likely to be carrying injuries, as they did last world cup. Not a good prospect. Then if they manage that, they still need to win two more. Can see now why Ireland dont progress well. Theyre home vs away efforts are skewed more than most towards home and they always have to battle in pool play. Theyre not going to just walk through this one.

SAs back row is also every bit as good as Irelands, Du Toits had a stunning RC, as has Louw and Kolisi, so no gimmes there. In Dyantyi a star is in the making, can sniff out the line with little space and is possibly the quickest player in the game at the moment. Faf is Faf and the Pollard, de Allande, Kriel backline is a sign of SA moving back to its roots, big hard running backs. Marx has claim to worlds best hooker and Le Roux is back to his best. A win in NZ and an all but in the return match suggests theyre well on the mend.

England and oz are so up and down theyre not worth discussing yet, both are winning and dropping matches they should and shouldnt with so much inconsistency who knows.

Interesting take on it. Id rather play SA in the quarters than a lot of sides including Wales, NZ and Argentina. SA have improved a fair bit and look strong at home but still dont look good away except for one game. Another view is SA have the team ranked 1 in their group and will have to play team ranked 2 if they make it out of their group in 2nd. Not that easy for them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If an international side calls up a player during an international window they can't stop the player leaving.
Also todd is world class under the very loosest definition of the phrase

Todds not available, hes playing in Japan.

Hansens is picked to go to Mitre 10 for a back up.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Great adverts for the RC those matches on the weekend as well. Fantastic viewing.

It was and it wasnt really. Better than last weekend but its obvious enough that all sides are way behind NZ still. Yes SA did great and should have won but they still managed losses to weak enough Argentina and Australia sides. Game of the weekend.

Argentina can be sublime one minute and absolutely dire the next, Australia too to a marginally lesser extent. Some of the defending in their match was really poor IMO.

I dont think many teams would want to get Argentina in the world cup because they have the ability to score out of no where but I dont think they will do that well as they seem very prone to imploding with a similar frequency.

Improvements are coming steadily for both Argie and SA under the new coaches Ledesma and Rassie. Both teams will improve by next year. Argie needs to get out of the England France pool and frankly all three are a toss up for two, but a win vs either Wales or Oz could have Argie in the semis again quite easily.

Ireland have it tough. Likely vs SA quarters Rassie has NZ then Italy and two qualifiers to manage through to next round.

All he has to do is focus on Italy, play a complete second team versus NZ and pick up the qualifiers to qualify second. Easiest pool youd see in a long time.Trouble there is both NZ and SA come out of pool play with the worst prep you could want, so clearly Hansen will be experimenting to create pressure. Its a horrid prep scenario, especially if SA play seconds. Odd how we get by far our easiest matches in years at the games premier event.

Ireland have to win their pool to avoid NZ so will have it tough in pool...Scotland and Samoa are must wins, Japan a potential banana skin match, especially if they play as many overseas players as they have been lately.

Ireland come out a bit ragged and face a clearly fresh NZ or SA. By that stage Ireland are more likely to be carrying injuries, as they did last world cup. Not a good prospect. Then if they manage that, they still need to win two more. Can see now why Ireland dont progress well. Theyre home vs away efforts are skewed more than most towards home and they always have to battle in pool play. Theyre not going to just walk through this one.

SAs back row is also every bit as good as Irelands, Du Toits had a stunning RC, as has Louw and Kolisi, so no gimmes there. In Dyantyi a star is in the making, can sniff out the line with little space and is possibly the quickest player in the game at the moment. Faf is Faf and the Pollard, de Allande, Kriel backline is a sign of SA moving back to its roots, big hard running backs. Marx has claim to worlds best hooker and Le Roux is back to his best. A win in NZ and an all but in the return match suggests theyre well on the mend.

England and oz are so up and down theyre not worth discussing yet, both are winning and dropping matches they should and shouldnt with so much inconsistency who knows.

Interesting take on it. Id rather play SA in the quarters than a lot of sides including Wales, NZ and Argentina. SA have improved a fair bit and look strong at home but still dont look good away except for one game. Another view is SA have the team ranked 1 in their group and will have to play team ranked 2 if they make it out of their group in 2nd. Not that easy for them.

Rankings go out the window at quarter final stage. Its simple, they face Ireland if things go as they should and that is no gimme, and weve already established that lose a few key players and Ireland are pulp.

That's todd's choice not the club's.
Or indeed nz following their own policy.