The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

2 English clubs. Bath and saracens.

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

See my figures above. If the unions all invested the same % into the pro sides then you’d have a point. But  remember the regions are separate from the union in Wales (apart from the Dragons to a certain extent). The WRU could have a revenue of £200m. It wouldn’t necessarily mean that the regions would have a bigger budget.

No 7&1/2 wrote:2 English clubs. Bath and saracens.

You really need to use the quote function 7.5! I’ve no idea who your sentence is aimed at?!

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I reckon that England, NZ and Wales are the top three highest union turnovers.  How profitable they are is a separate question.

All unions don’t get the same income from 6N and PRO12.

Use the mobile version of the site oracle and for whatever reason it's not an option. And most times I'm just to lazy to type a name. Aimed at tj with several clubs breaking the cap, it was just the 2.

I suppose if you go into the deeper past Leicester were once done.

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.

munkian wrote:

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.

What tax breaks are those?

munkian wrote:

TJ wrote:its the main source of income.  all unions get the same income from the 6N and the pro 12.  European cup varies a bit.  Extra income to the teams ie gate receipts and sponsorship are a small part of their income

The idea that the irish buy success and the welsh are the poor relations is bollox

I'm afraid this is bollix mate. Look at the prices of some of Leinster's season tickets compared to other teams in the league. Leinster has a higher GDP than all of Wales.

They also have the benefit of massive 'cultural' tax breaks.

So what is your view on what teams in the Pro14 should spend all this extra cash on if there was a salary cap.

As you used Leinster as an example what do we do about all these unfair adatages that they have so that they can be less good.
1. Best academy in league due to the level of competition at second level schooling meaning they need to develop better to just get a spot.
2. Top 2 supported teams in the league meaning their 16th man can better influence refs and also intimidate visiting teams
3. That rugby is played and watched mainly by rich people and that the team covers an area with lots of rich people who love and are involved in Rugby
4. That they have use of a bigger stadium (but not their home) that they fill because they have more fans
5. That they have players who want to be able to visit their Mammy and so don't want to leave
6. That they have too many internationals though they were developed as Pro14 filler players (those rotation knock offs that no one wants to see) who become internationals (except Mr Ryan they have no excuse for him)
7. That they create to much money compared to the other teams so have more money for wages

I am all for salary restrictions (%Of income) but not caps as it may reward on field but not when you talk about off field management, it then rewards poor management and penalised good management

Brendan wrote:

As you used Leinster as an example what do we do about all these unfair adatages that they have so that they can be less good.
1. Best academy in league due to the level of competition at second level schooling meaning they need to develop better to just get a spot.
2. Top 2 supported teams in the league meaning their 16th man can better influence refs and also intimidate visiting teams
3. That rugby is played and watched mainly by rich people and that the team covers an area with lots of rich people who love and are involved in Rugby
4. That they have use of a bigger stadium (but not their home) that they fill because they have more fans
5. That they have players who want to be able to visit their Mammy and so don't want to leave
6. That they have too many internationals though they were developed as Pro14 filler players (those rotation knock offs that no one wants to see) who become internationals (except Mr Ryan they have no excuse for him)
7. That they create to much money compared to the other teams so have more money for wages

I think, working from that list, that the strategic decision by Pro14 heads would be to just ban Mammies - and the level playing field would arrive instantly?

Also, do away with 'cultural' tax breaks, enforce Communism on Ireland... send Leinster lads to the gulags in Leitrim and give their green replacements from the labour camps of .... em Leitrim ... some gruel - with eyes in it - once a week for sustenance during the entire playing season.

That MIGHT help..... but I only say 'Might'......

SecretFly wrote:

I think, working from that list, that the strategic decision by Pro14 heads would be to just ban Mammies - and the level playing field would arrive instantly?

Nothing as intimidating as an Irish mammy

That bit about Leinster fans loving rugby is a bit overstated. Its mostly they love ‘been seen’ at the rugby. It’s like a low rent version of Made in Chelsea and hardly a hardcore rugby experience. Still, they don’t boo as much as Ulster or Munster fans. That would be far too common.

What is 'hardcore'?  

The common man who works in the chipshop bullshyte, who might spit on the guy in front of him out of a misdirected but lovingly wholesome hardcore love of rugby?  
De common man fan and de common, self-made rag-and-bone dodgy chancer cum billionaire owner..... ahhhhh...............  it's sooooo romantik.

There’s nowt worse than Nouveau Riche!

Cyril wrote:That bit about Leinster fans loving rugby is a bit overstated. Its mostly they love ‘been seen’ at the rugby. It’s like a low rent version of Made in Chelsea and hardly a hardcore rugby experience. Still, they don’t boo as much as Ulster or Munster fans. That would be far too common.

The other three provinces have to many common people so they Boo and all that. Leinster just look down their nose at the other team

On a serious note Leinster don't fill their stadium because everyone things that have to be seen there. Yes there are a few like everywhere and more so for the Aviva games but the RDS is passionate and the true fans

SecretFly wrote:What is 'hardcore'?  

The common man who works in the chipshop bullshyte, who might spit on the guy in front of him out of a misdirected but lovingly wholesome hardcore love of rugby?  
De common man fan and de common, self-made rag-and-bone dodgy chancer cum billionaire owner..... ahhhhh...............  it's sooooo romantik.

Cyril is still obsessed with the Jackson/Olding case so maybe it has something to do with that? Be careful about asking though as he might start on about moral immorality...

Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !

As for going to the rugby to "be seen" rather than to watch the game surely the natural home for that is Twickenham ?

Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !

That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

All unions run the pro 14 clubs. all unions have very similar income streams. Its not the pro 14s issue if ( and I am 100% certain this is not so) that any one countyries teams are disadvataged financially - its the union.

We have been over the scarce numbers we have time and time again and there is no huge disparity in incomes for the clubs. You can make it look like there is by comparing apples to oranges. For example we know the players budget for the welsh teams but for the scots we only know the total costs. If you look into the figures the actual money available for players is very similar.

TJ wrote:All unions run the pro 14 clubs.  

Say what now?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !

That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

It's not the collective clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets sound, it's the thumping of shoulder-hung overstarched pink jumper sleeves sound...

NEXT!

TJ wrote:All unions run the pro 14 clubs.  all unions have very similar income streams.  Its not the pro 14s issue if ( and I am 100% certain this is not so) that any one countyries teams are disadvataged financially - its the union.

We have been over the scarce numbers we have time and time again and there is no huge disparity in incomes for the clubs.  You can make it look like there is by comparing apples to oranges.  For example we know the players budget for the welsh teams but for the scots we only know the total costs.  If you look into the figures the actual money available for players is very similar.

Are you taking the p*ss?! The unions do not run all of the Pro14 clubs. Why on earth do you think this?!

Edit: just to add - the unions have similar income streams (I.e. sources) but not similar income levels. They vary vastly, as mentioned previously. Funnily enough it’s just been reported today that the WRU has had record turnover for 2017/18 of £97m. Which is almost double that of Scotland. So similar income streams but not amounts. And as Pot alluded to previously this is just revenue. It doesn’t mean the WRU have twice the money of the SRU to play with. The outgoings could be much higher for, for example, they could be paying off lots of more debts, could be more shareholders to pay, etc. More revenue doesn’t mean more to the clubs either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45578364

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Leinster fans don't boo - they do "tut" loudly sometimes though !

That's not a tutting sound, it's the colelctive clanking of the wads of cash in their pockets.

Sigh. Wads of cash don’t clank. They quietly rustle if not held in place by the money clip.

Enjoyable day at the 606 office today. Lots of wise crackers about

.... pity it's a safe cracker I'm actually looking for. Oh well, back to Buy and Sell...

So a third of the way through the season with 7 games under their belts, the conference tables have Leinster and Glasgow leading their conferences again. A combined points table of the two looks like this in three chunks:

Top 6
B - Leinster 29 PD+118
A - Glasgow 27 PD +77
B - Scarlets 24 PD +46
A - Ospreys 23 PD +33
B - Ulster 21 PD -22
A - Munster 19 PD +85

Chasers
A - Cardiff 17 PD +19
A - Connacht 16 +9
B - Edinburgh 16 -23
B - Bennetton 16 -26
A - Zebre 15 -36

When will the season end?
B - Dragons 9 - 72
B - Kings 9 - 102
A - Cheetahs 9 -106

What will it look like by Christmas/New Year with lots of derbies coming up in rounds 11, 12 & 13?

Leinster and Munster will have their squads split in three next weekend with both travelling to SA, another chunk of their squads in Chicago, and the remainder being barked at by Joe Schmidt - the cupboards going to look fairly bare.

Meanwhile, it'll be a mini Welsh-Scots festival next weekend with the tests battling it out whilst Edinburgh and Glasgow take on Ospreys and Scarlets.

Connacht and Cardiff might benefit the most with home games, relatively unscathed squads playing Dragons and Zebre respectively.

Good to see it is nice and tight and that the Italians are carrying on last year's improvements.

Currie cup changes and the implications for the Pro 14/16. I put it in here as this has been the big issue with the Cheetaths at the start of this season.

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/CurrieCup/currie-cup-2019-set-for-dramatic-revamp-20181105

Positivites
1. Less resources drained from the two current teams in the regular season and should help squad size
2. Gives the SA teams a compeditive head start
3. Kings brought up to the top table
4. Should allow us to see the strenght of the 2 other teams (Which seemed to do well this year) so easier to see their standard to our league
5. Should make doing the draft easier as things will be in place which helps the Pro14 teams and weakens the S15 teams

Negatives
1. Does it mean the SA go to 4 teams in the 19/20 season
2. Does it help grow the support that is struggling a little

Puma finished 5th, and were compeditive in games lost

Thats intresting. I hoped that one of the new teams would go into the super 15 and one super side move over.
Is it too many games a season if/when the pro 14 sides get into europe

Kingshu wrote:Thats intresting. I hoped that one of the new teams would go into the super 15 and one super side move over.
Is it too many games a season if/when the pro 14 sides get into europe

Would be good to have the stormers that way we have all the teams "near" Capetown.

This is an article from WOL, I know people do not like that media source on here, but it hammers home a strong point of view.

The Guinness PRO14's credibility has been totally undermined by a farce that cannot continue

There were 66 players missing from the big Welsh-Scottish club clashes because of the extra Test between Wales and Scotland

The Guinness PRO14 is its own worst enemy at times and last night was a classic case of getting it wrong.

You couldn’t make it up as the Ospreys hosted Glasgow Warriors and the Scarlets went to Edinburgh.

That's because none of the quartet could field anywhere near their best line-ups because of international calls.

What made it worse is the Test we're talking about is today’s between Wales and Scotland at the Principality Stadium.

It’s being held outside the official autumn international window for one reason only, to bring in revenue to help pay for the pro game underneath it.

I can understand that but what I can’t fathom is why Welsh-Scottish fixtures in the PRO14 have been staged on the very same weekend as the two countries go head-to-head.

The Guinness PRO14 is its own worst enemy at times and last night was a classic case of getting it wrong.

You couldn’t make it up as the Ospreys hosted Glasgow Warriors and the Scarlets went to Edinburgh.


That's because none of the quartet could field anywhere near their best line-ups because of international calls.

What made it worse is the Test we're talking about is today’s between Wales and Scotland at the Principality Stadium.

It’s being held outside the official autumn international window for one reason only, to bring in revenue to help pay for the pro game underneath it.

I can understand that but what I can’t fathom is why Welsh-Scottish fixtures in the PRO14 have been staged on the very same weekend as the two countries go head-to-head.

Some 40 players - 20 on each side - missed the meeting between the Ospreys and Glasgow in Swansea because of those Test calls and injuries.

For the record, Glasgow secured a bonus point as they beat an Ospreys team short on ideas 29-20 at the Liberty Stadium to open up a nine-point buffer over them at the top of Conference A.

And Edinburgh also got an extra point as a late burst saw them put the Scarlets away 31-21 at Murrayfield.

Edinburgh had 15 players missing and the Scarlets 11 of their Wales contingent with hooker Ryan Elias their only player to have been released for regional duty by national coach Warren Gatland.

The victory enabled the Scottish capital city outfit to climb to third in Conference B, just three points behind the Scarlets.

Both fixtures were proverbial ‘eight-pointers’ and should have been full-blown affairs with the stars present.

That they weren't has to be deemed unacceptable by anyone's standards.

There are no easy solutions here. As we know, the extra autumn game helps generate the cash for the unions that in turn helps fund the teams that play in the PRO14. And, with the current season structure, there simply are no other guaranteed free weekends.

But while the PRO14 remains the sacrificial lamb in all this, its credibility will continue to be undermined.

Perhaps the season could have started a week earlier to accommodate this fourth autumn international? Yes, not all frontline players would necessarily have been available for an earlier season start date but it wouldn't have meant the mass absentees we've seen this weekend.

A more streamlined structure has to be found for future seasons, with the expansion of the PRO14 to the PRO16 looking a possibility. That could actually solve the problem, with the league switching to a single conference that sees each team play each other once, with extra return derby games too. That would see a reduction in normal league games from the current 21 to 18.

Something has to be done because the PRO14 has been devalued and kept potential spectators away over the past 24 hours.

No wonder it’s still viewed as a second-rate competition by many rugby followers across the border in England.

I enjoyed the Internationals outside the official International windows.  And they shouldn't be devalued by putting out 23 rookies either.

International is the juicier product.  I like that too. We don't all think the same.

So maybe if the clubs and International can't really bed down together comfortably without the eternal groans and whines, maybe another breakaway? - A new code game entirely specifically for Professional teams that don't want to share the world with 'International'.  

Rugby Union teams (professional teams that can handle the hassle)

...and maybe something like Star Rugby for the purely Privately Professional model.  

No player crossover.  

See where the 'stars' levitate towards.

How many of those 66 players would have been rested anyway as it's the week before the internationals.  Were attendances down, were the games not compeditive. Was the standard of play noticeably lower.  Where were the problems.

Lord are you saying you want to play less league games or less European games. As much as we might dislike it the WAL v Sco and IRE v Ita net the union more to pump back into the professional game than any of the matches played that week.  From an Irish point of view its two more people we can afford to get/keep for next year.

Also Notice how much SA have improved since joining the Pro14 and getting a Pro14 manager.

Don't shoot the messenger people.

I am just pointing out what the media are saying.

Brendan wrote:

Also Notice how much SA have improved since joining the Pro14 and getting a Pro14 manager.

Yeah you should copy the prem. By having an international outside the window and continuing to play prem games.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Also Notice how much SA have improved since joining the Pro14 and getting a Pro14 manager.

Its a great fact even if they are unrelated.

It's the Pro14 midas touch.

Joe Schmidt,
Michael Cheika,
Erasmus,
Ronan O'Gara (NH boy in SH coaching job)
Lancaster (rehabilitated)
Farrell (rehabilitated)
Jackman......... well, nothing is perfect.......................

Jackman will turn it around in year five of the three year plan, you mark my words.

Brendan wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Also Notice how much SA have improved since joining the Pro14 and getting a Pro14 manager.

Its a great fact even if they are unrelated.

“Correlation does not imply causation”!

LordDowlais wrote:Don't shoot the messenger people.

I knew this guy was Andy Howell in real life, now he's admitted it

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Don't shoot the messenger people.

I knew this guy was Andy Howell in real life, now he's admitted it

It is comedy to be fair, but very strange.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Don't shoot the messenger people.

I knew this guy was Andy Howell in real life, now he's admitted it

If it is a word for word copy and paste from the WOL article, which I suspect it is, the writing style has an uncanny likness to LD’s own style!

Makes largely identical arguments as well.

A collection of bullet points is apparently what passes as an article for WOL

It worries me to say the least that members on here can accuse a national media outlet of coming onto an internet forum to plug their stories, how would this stand up if the forum was accused of something it should not be doing ?

Perhaps this is something that the moderators need to look at.

LordDowlais wrote:It worries me to say the least that members on here can accuse a national media outlet of coming onto an internet forum to plug their stories, how would this stand up if the forum was accused of something it should not be doing ?

Perhaps this is something that the moderators need to look at.

You just posted your article on here word for word

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It worries me to say the least that members on here can accuse a national media outlet of coming onto an internet forum to plug their stories, how would this stand up if the forum was accused of something it should not be doing ?

Perhaps this is something that the moderators need to look at.

You just posted your article on here word for word

And you have accused me, yet again, of being a journalist from the same media outlet. Do you even know what you are insinuating when you are doing that ?

There's no way Andy Howell would know how to use an Internet Forum.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It worries me to say the least that members on here can accuse a national media outlet of coming onto an internet forum to plug their stories, how would this stand up if the forum was accused of something it should not be doing ?

Perhaps this is something that the moderators need to look at.

You just posted your article on here word for word

And you have accused me, yet again, of being a journalist from the same media outlet. Do you even know what you are insinuating when you are doing that ?

Not sure Andy Howell can really be considered a journalist

LordDowlais wrote:It worries me to say the least that members on here can accuse a national media outlet of coming onto an internet forum to plug their stories, how would this stand up if the forum was accused of something it should not be doing ?

Perhaps this is something that the moderators need to look at.

I love how his go to these days is this or Im not talking to you for pointing out the canyons in my argument on numerous occasions