PGA Tour: European Exhibitionists . . . and A New Season Underway: Notes from the Ballwasher

by kwinigolfer Thu 04 Oct 2018, 6:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Lots on the Ryder Cup elsewhere, but a few thoughts here starting with a headline two weeks ago from one of the US's few world class papers, The Wall Street Journal.
They headlined an article about Paris Le Golf National:
"US Golfers ponder foreign concept - hitting fairways".
And so it proved.
Only Rickie Fowler (52nd) of the leading 92 in the Tour's "Driving Accuracy" stat made the Team; Finau, Reed and Mickelson all in the bottom 20 in that stat.
Big irony for moi was that the "Billy Horschel Rule", last-minute pick for the in-form American, went to the guy 180th in driving accuracy (although obviously Finau played very well) instead of, say Billy Horschel who finished one place (5th) in front of Finau and was 16th on Tour in driving accuracy and 3rd in Greens In Regulation; not quite Stenson-esque - he led both stats - but better than anyone remotely in contention other than the very excellent Kyle Stanley.

2).Not quite sure the US Team structure is correct - Mickelson and Woods were part of the asylum's Task Force management team right up until a month ago, and probably right through the weekend.
Did they exert undue influence?
If Phil and Tiger were exhausted, why didn't one or both stand down, or sit out one of the Play-Off events??
Did their partnership preferences trump team efficacy until it was too late???
At least Jim Furyk didn't have a cabbage thrown at him . . . . . .

3).Nobel Prize Physics Laureate-elect DeChambeau will never get a better lesson that, in golf at least, team chemistry surpasses individual physics when all else is equal.
Good for Justin Thomas for playing in Paris last June. Looks like he learned a bit and could be the natural leader for Team USA that they haven't had for ages.
(PS: The "tourists" on this board last week gave Rory a hard time, but I would've thought he played quite well, from Friday lunchtime onwards anyway, though I'd still have preferred him lower in the batting order.)

4).Congrats to Le Golf National. I thought it was a terrible choice of venue, but it looked great and was a proper test.
And raised doubts on Brooks Koepka's mantra: "I'll back my wedge from the rough against someone else's 6-iron from the fairway any day".
The Europeans have their work cut out to emulate Paris.

5).What did we learn about upcoming Captaincies?
Sounds as if Stricker is first in line for the USA, partly because it'll be a home game (relatively speaking) for him in Wisconsin. Would think he needs to learn lessons from Furyk before accepting, especially vis-a-vis a certain T.Woods. Who would you choose?
And Rory's premature extrapolation that Harrington should lead the Europeans seems a bit, well, premature. I'd like to see Bjorn again, thought he did great. Interestingly, the four Continental European captains have all won. I'm not convinced either Padraig or Westwood will be good captains. And there'll be tears after that with Poulter, Stenson, Donald, Casey, Rose, Garcia, McDowell all with distinguished RC careers but all stuck in the 38 - 42 years age range.

6).The 2018/2019 PGA Tour season is up and running already, at Silverado in California's gorgeous Napa Valley.
Hopefully the heat will be on the course this year and not the fires that overwhelmed part of the Silverado Resort and Spa complex, and sky-boxes on the course, the evening following the 2017's tournament conclusion. Several officials and volunteers at the event lost their homes in the inferno, so fingers crossed birdies and eagles will be the only thing lighting up the action for the next four days.

7).Brendan Steele has won the last two events here and finished Top 25 the previous two years; Martin Laird has 3rd, 8th and 17th place finishes to launch three of his last four campaigns giving him crucial momentum to get FedEx Points on the board early. You'd think at least half the field would have similar motivation.
My one-and-done choice is Sang Moon Bae who won here three years ago and will be coming in either hot from his wtF win a few weeks ago, or cold thru not having played since.

8).Phil is in this week's field, the only Ryder Cup participant playing here - he's Top 10'd here the last two years, but I won't be backing him to be playing this weekend. His way forward could be an interesting path, less travelled no doubt, these next few months.
And the same could also be said of Danny Willett who endured a similarly dismal Ryder Cup experience at Hazeltine. Does his presence in this week's field portend a commitment to PGA Tour play this season?

9).Messrs Goosen, Pavin, Graham Marsh, Calvin Peete, Jim Ferrier and Sutton join Dottie Pepper, Jan Stephenson, Sandra Palmer, Beverly Hanson, Catherine Lacoste and Susie Maxwell as announced candidates for 2019 World Golf Hall Of Fame induction. A very weak line-up I would have thought.
Perhaps Retief, Cowboy Sutton, Pepper and Maxwell would be possibles, but this looks a pretty sub-standard group. (There is also a Lifetime Achievement category.)

10).Talking of Silverado fires and weather-related phenomena, I see Hurricane Sergio is loitering with intent in the Pacific. It won't affect Silverado, but what karma if it did!

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 11:12 am

You're ignorant because you don't understand that the subjective element is tiny, the judges know exactly how to score a move because of body shape, technique and degree of ability. It's pretty much like marking an exam paper, you clearly don't understand this, have no interest in looking at how the competitions are scored, so therefore make a sweeping generalisation that is totally incorrect.
Of course it's subject to what others do, as you have to do the routine better than they do.
It's a classic case of assuming you know everything about a sport, when actually you know very little of the detail. I wouldn't bother debating golf swing mechanics with you, you clearly know far more than I do. You're big problem is (well, I think you have many, quite possibly including Aspergers)) is you are utterly incapable of admitting you don't fully understand something.
To be honest, I've pretty much stopped giving a toss about anything you post on here. I'll take a vague interest if you ever grow a pair and admit what music you actually listen to and why.

by McLaren Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:26 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:Mac, what about all the other entertainment that promoters are having to put on at F1 events to attract people in? Are you saying that F1 is not a sport? ;)

I was arguing that sports that require frivolous entertainment away from the main event might have a problem with how many fans they can attract and how many fans will enjoy it. In those terms F1 probably does have a problem. It is very popular but like all organisations the owners want even more people to turn up or tune in. If you have come to f1 for the glitz and side shows you are probably going to be very bored by the main event.

by McLaren Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:30 pm

If gymnastics, diving, ice skating, horsey stuff, ski jumping, half pipe, bmx (in fact many winter and extreme sports), skateboarding etc are considered sports despite having subjective scoring systems why wouldn't cheerleading be considered a sport? If it is basically just gymnastics as a group it makes perfect sense to call it just as much of a sport as gymnastics.

by raycastleunited Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:36 pm

Diggers, you've just summed up very well why super is right and this isn't a sport. The score is based on judges determining a mark. Now they have prescriptive criteria for determining the score, but these criteria define how the judges should interpret the execution of technique.

Cheerleading is dancing. Synchro is ballet in water. Both are very difficult and take loads of practice and skill, but they are art not sport.

by raycastleunited Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:40 pm

beninho wrote:1An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Thats the dictionary definition. Theres a lot of things that are sports that people don't like. Doesn't mean you can't class them as s sport, just means you don't like them. Why can't people like just say they don't like or don't care for sonetjing without havibg to denigrate it.

According to your definition, BGT and X factor are also sports.

It's not about denigrating activities... I've been to see the ballet and was incredibly impressed with the grace and skill of the dancers. I've also seen synchro (I used to go out with a swimmer) and the technique on display was amazing. Doesn't make it sport though.

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 1:21 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Diggers, you've just summed up very well why super is right and this isn't a sport. The score is based on judges determining a mark. Now they have prescriptive criteria for determining the score, but these criteria define how the judges should interpret the execution of technique.

Cheerleading is dancing. Synchro is ballet in water. Both are very difficult and take loads of practice and skill, but they are art not sport.

Sorry, Ray. If you think cheerleading is dancing you’ve just proven my argument as to why a little (and wrong) knowledge is a bad thing. Have you ever in your like looked at how any of those sports are technically scored? If you had, you’d realise everything you’ve said is pretty much rubbish.

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 1:38 pm

I guess we need to take Ali, SRR and SRL off the list of great sportsmen.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 18 Oct 2018, 2:18 pm

Diggers wrote:I guess we need to take Ali, SRR and SRL off the list of great sportsmen.

Clearly. Bit of a bugger that, eh?

by raycastleunited Thu 18 Oct 2018, 2:29 pm

Diggers wrote:I guess we need to take Ali, SRR and SRL off the list of great sportsmen.

Agree Moeen Ali is on nobody's all time list.

SR is a good golfer but by his own admission is a million miles from a professional.

SRL? No idea who you're on about.

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 2:30 pm

Definitely. Didn't this forum (all of it, not just golf) vote Ali as the greatest sportsman ever? He was certainly up there. Little did those idiots know he wasn't even a sportsman at all!!

by NedB-H Thu 18 Oct 2018, 3:52 pm

Diggers you say there’s very little subjectivity in the scoring/marking systems. My other half enjoys watching floor gymnastics so that pops up on the tv a fair bit even though I’m loathe to consider it a true sport. The commentators regularly seem to question the capabilities and the impartiality of the judges.

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 4:26 pm

There is incredibly rigorous scrutiny in place, especially at the big events. It wasn’t great in the Cold War days but has massively tightened up. So much of it is straightforward technical marking on a clean move, artistic doesn’t come into it.
Like I say, it’s way, way, way better than boxing in terms of clarity.

by beninho Thu 18 Oct 2018, 5:33 pm

Everyone has their own view and opinion on what is and what isnt a sport, so what does everyone define a sport?

by I'm never wrong Thu 18 Oct 2018, 6:21 pm

beninho wrote:Everyone has their own view and opinion on what is and what isnt a sport, so what does everyone define a sport?

I think it just has to stay a personal opinion. Your definition "An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment."
could include all the "fixed" events that have been talked about. So are they sports? Despite Diggers explanation of what goes into the scoring of say cheerleading competitions, in my view, I do not regard them as sports. I feel a "sport" needs to have some sort of physical measurement. But then what of golf? Snooker? You might put the same effort into either of them but I would class golf as a "sport" and snooker as a "pastime" or "game". there is also the question of who decides. The IOC? Who?

by beninho Thu 18 Oct 2018, 6:53 pm

Doubt the world health organization would get involved...

by Diggers Thu 18 Oct 2018, 6:59 pm

Not sure what the physical measure is in golf? Are we talking final score on a round? That can be achieved without any physical exertion at all.
For me it’s an involvement of physicality plus competition. Whether that has to be judged or not to me is irrelevant, I can’t believe anyone could possibly see Max Whitlock as anything other than a sportsperson. Nobody seems to be writing off boxing, which clearly relies on many instances on subjective opinion.
Might not be sports you want to watch, but they have every right to be classified as sports.

by pedro Thu 18 Oct 2018, 9:04 pm

If it was last man standing in boxing you could make a better argument for it being a sport. At least on amateur level.

On pro level, with all the different associations and money involved it just seems too contrived.

by GPB Fri 19 Oct 2018, 1:13 am

Lots of mainstream US sports that don't appeal to me. NASCAR, Basketball.

And non-US sports too. I don't see the appeal of cricket, soccer, and F1. Or Darts, Hurling.

I don't really like vanilla or chocolate ice cream either, but I do like pistachio.

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

by super_realist Fri 19 Oct 2018, 7:54 am

McLaren wrote:If gymnastics, diving, ice skating, horsey stuff, ski jumping, half pipe, bmx (in fact many winter and extreme sports), skateboarding etc are considered sports despite having subjective scoring systems why wouldn't cheerleading be considered a sport? If it is basically just gymnastics as a group it makes perfect sense to call it just as much of a sport as gymnastics.

Mac, my particular beef with Cheerleading as a sport (or any "sport" that does this) is that before the event even begins there is a predetermined routine, from start to finish. So Ice Skating, Gymnastics, synchronised swimming etc.

I don't agree that half pipe, skateboarding etc have the same predetermined routine prior to "dropping in". It's very much more reactive. They might have an idea, but they won't necessarily have it planned to the move.

Surely that's a fair enough point?

Boxing is a judged sport, but it's very much reactive to the situation. An opponent can make the opposition perform in a certain way, but if I'm being consistent, then yes, it doesn't meet the criteria for sport in my book even though those guys are some of the best "athletes" around.

I do wonder why Diggers is taking such umbrage with this, pretty sure he wouldn't care if he didn't have relatives to defend.

by Roller_Coaster Fri 19 Oct 2018, 9:13 am

Opponents competing against each other simultaneously as a part of it?

But it does immediately come into the crosshairs as long jump/javelin I guess most would probably consider sport and yet the "you go then I go" nature is the same as cheerleading (and tiddlywinks is simultaneous competition and not a sport).

Boss of mine once said "it's anything you have to change into specialist footwear for".

I don't really give a toss, but some do and having links to that event/issue does of course intensify views. I don't happen to think Cheerleading is a sport in any way shape or form. Can it be done competitively? Are the participants athletic? Is there skill? Resounding yes to all 3. Is it sport? Not to me. It is to Digs. Vive la difference.

Digs is of course wrong, however Whistle

(joke!)

by pedro Fri 19 Oct 2018, 9:22 am

Striptease is a sport then.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 19 Oct 2018, 9:47 am

GPB wrote:Lots of mainstream US sports that don't appeal to me. NASCAR, Basketball.

And non-US sports too. I don't see the appeal of cricket, soccer, and F1. Or Darts, Hurling.

I don't really like vanilla or chocolate ice cream either, but I do like pistachio.

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

by raycastleunited Fri 19 Oct 2018, 11:36 am

pedro wrote:Striptease is a sport then.

Am looking forward to lap-dancing making its debut at the Olympics.

Diggers would have us believe it's a sport, and who am I to argue? Yahoo

by beninho Fri 19 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm

I've seen some lap dancers put in more physical exertion during two snd half minutes then some professional sportsmen.

by Diggers Fri 19 Oct 2018, 12:50 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:Opponents competing against each other simultaneously as a part of it?

But it does immediately come into the crosshairs as long jump/javelin I guess most would probably consider sport and yet the "you go then I go" nature is the same as cheerleading (and tiddlywinks is simultaneous competition and not a sport).

Boss of mine once said "it's anything you have to change into specialist footwear for".

I don't really give a toss, but some do and having links to that event/issue does of course intensify views. I don't happen to think Cheerleading is a sport in any way shape or form. Can it be done competitively? Are the participants athletic? Is there skill? Resounding yes to all 3. Is it sport? Not to me. It is to Digs. Vive la difference.

Digs is of course wrong, however

(joke!)

To be fair, I am wrong about many things

by McLaren Fri 19 Oct 2018, 12:56 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:If gymnastics, diving, ice skating, horsey stuff, ski jumping, half pipe, bmx (in fact many winter and extreme sports), skateboarding etc are considered sports despite having subjective scoring systems why wouldn't cheerleading be considered a sport? If it is basically just gymnastics as a group it makes perfect sense to call it just as much of a sport as gymnastics.

Mac, my particular beef with Cheerleading as a sport (or any "sport" that does this) is that before the event even begins there is a predetermined routine, from start to finish. So Ice Skating, Gymnastics, synchronised swimming etc.

I don't agree that half pipe, skateboarding etc have the same predetermined routine prior to "dropping in". It's very much more reactive. They might have an idea, but they won't necessarily have it planned to the move.

Surely that's a fair enough point?

Boxing is a judged sport, but it's very much reactive to the situation. An opponent can make the opposition perform in a certain way, but if I'm being consistent, then yes, it doesn't meet the criteria for sport in my book even though those guys are some of the best "athletes" around.

I do wonder why Diggers is taking such umbrage with this, pretty sure he wouldn't care if he didn't have relatives to defend.

Super the routines done be snowboarders, trick ski'ists, half pipe skateboarders etc are very carefully planned.

by Diggers Fri 19 Oct 2018, 12:57 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:If gymnastics, diving, ice skating, horsey stuff, ski jumping, half pipe, bmx (in fact many winter and extreme sports), skateboarding etc are considered sports despite having subjective scoring systems why wouldn't cheerleading be considered a sport? If it is basically just gymnastics as a group it makes perfect sense to call it just as much of a sport as gymnastics.

Mac, my particular beef with Cheerleading as a sport (or any "sport" that does this) is that before the event even begins there is a predetermined routine, from start to finish. So Ice Skating, Gymnastics, synchronised swimming etc.

I don't agree that half pipe, skateboarding etc have the same predetermined routine prior to "dropping in". It's very much more reactive. They might have an idea, but they won't necessarily have it planned to the move.

Surely that's a fair enough point?

Boxing is a judged sport, but it's very much reactive to the situation. An opponent can make the opposition perform in a certain way, but if I'm being consistent, then yes, it doesn't meet the criteria for sport in my book even though those guys are some of the best "athletes" around.

I do wonder why Diggers is taking such umbrage with this, pretty sure he wouldn't care if he didn't have relatives to defend.

Clearly, I'm more engaged with the *sport* because I'm seeing it regularly, and I do feel more informed about it because the girls both compete for their clubs and put in a lot of hours each week and I do know how it's scored. My sister in law is a competitive cheer coach so I know how they score that as well, again, nothing like as much to do with musicality and artistry as many think. I really don't understand your problem with a predetermined routine, running a 100 metres is a practised, predetermined routine. You train to perform that routine, you have to compete against the pressure of others in the race, you have to do the same through watching others do gym routines.
Being in that situation leads me to conclude that what I'm watching is definitely sport, not just for my relatives but for some kids I teach who are doing up to 12 hours training a week.
Hey, in many ways Super, I feel in a better position being on the opposite side of a debate with you, so it's all good.

by super_realist Fri 19 Oct 2018, 7:18 pm

I did try to make it clear that it was my opinion Diggers. I'm fine if you want to watch teenage girls cheerleading, but it's not my idea of a sport.

I also find it funny that when people claim "my sister is....." Do you REALLY discuss the intricacies of how such a daft "sport" is marked? Conversation must be short in the Diggers household.

Are you really comparing 100 metres with a cheerleading competition? 8 guys going against one another and the winner is the one who does it in the quickest time? There's no subjectivity to it. It's a definitive outcome.

I'm fine if you want to consider competitive cheerleading a "sport", but I don't see it that way, and I very much doubt I'm in the minority.

As for snowboarders and skateboarders, yes they have an idea of what they want to do, but it is 100% dependent on how they land the previous trick. A routine has to be changed if you don't land properly or haven't maintained the right angle or trajectory. You literally cannot go into a planned 720 if you haven't got the speed and line for it, therefore you have to change your mind and improvise.

I

by NedB-H Sat 20 Oct 2018, 1:53 am

Super surely cheerleaders, floor gymnasts and so on have exactly the same reactive pressures? If you miss the landing on your triple pike tumble with 360 spin or whatever it’s called, you have to alter the backwards roll you were meant to do afterwards. I assume it’s the same with cheerleading, and if you drop the girl at the top of the pyramid someone has to improvise her bit of the next move (I may be displaying my lack of expertise here).

by super_realist Sat 20 Oct 2018, 8:44 am

If you drop the girl at the top of a pyramid, you can hardly get away with it can you?, you're done and you're going to be massively marked down, but if you've screwed the landing on a backside 1080 you can't exactly launch into a frontside cab 900 can you, you have to think of something else.

Either way, I'm simply not a fan of judged "sports". They are great fun to take part in, even to watch, but as for the competitive element, I'm not so sure. I can appreciate the talent in such events and don't deny the talent or skill or athleticism of many of them (certainly more athletic than golf for example), but as a spectacle, I don't really care who wins.

by Diggers Sat 20 Oct 2018, 9:37 am

super_realist wrote:I did try to make it clear that it was my opinion Diggers. I'm fine if you want to watch teenage girls cheerleading, but it's not my idea of a sport.

I also find it funny that when people claim "my sister is....." Do you REALLY discuss the intricacies of how such a daft "sport" is marked? Conversation must be short in the Diggers household.

Are you really comparing 100 metres with a cheerleading competition? 8 guys going against one another and the winner is the one who does it in the quickest time? There's no subjectivity to it. It's a definitive outcome.

I'm fine if you want to consider competitive cheerleading a "sport", but I don't see it that way, and I very much doubt I'm in the minority.

As for snowboarders and skateboarders, yes they have an idea of what they want to do, but it is 100% dependent on how they land the previous trick. A routine has to be changed if you don't land properly or haven't maintained the right angle or trajectory. You literally cannot go into a planned 720 if you haven't got the speed and line for it, therefore you have to change your mind and improvise.

I

For a grown man, who is dangerously obsessed with Tiger Woods, to pass comment on anyone else’s conversations is a bit rich. My nieces group were Australia National champions, be a bit rude not to take an interest.

by Diggers Sat 20 Oct 2018, 9:39 am

Explain why the 100 metres isn’t a pre rehearsed routine. It is exactly that, so I’s the long and high jump, technique and execution. No difference.

by super_realist Sat 20 Oct 2018, 10:29 am

How is it?

If you want to go down this ridiculous comparison of trying to compare a 100 metre race of 8 truly competitive individuals with a definitive winner determined by time, then fine, but I don't think rehearsed and choreographed teenagers dancing/performing gymnastics to music in front of judges to determine the winner (in sequence of a group one at a time) where the actions of another group has no bearing on your performance is anything like it then fine, just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

It's great you're proud of your nieces and have an interest in it, but it doesn't make it a sport in most peoples eyes and I really think you'd have a tough job getting a consensus on this or even close to one.

I'm not doubting their athleticism or physical ability, but such events don't seem like sport to me, maybe to you, and good luck, but most wouldn't agree.

by beninho Sat 20 Oct 2018, 11:07 am

I get the questioning of sport when judged, but then find it hard to doubt gymnastics as a sport even when judged, you can't say that soneone doing a routine on the bars, rings or horse are any less then someone doing snowboarding tricks in slopestyle or horse dancing ( which I really dislike). Synchronized swimming, while im not a fan, I don't doubt the skill and effort put in to compete same with ice skating. So competitive cheerleading, I see nowt wrong with it, but probably wouldn't watch it unless I had family involved!

by Diggers Sat 20 Oct 2018, 12:08 pm

super_realist wrote:How is it?

If you want to go down this ridiculous comparison of trying to compare a 100 metre race of 8 truly competitive individuals with a definitive winner determined by time, then fine, but I don't think rehearsed and choreographed teenagers dancing/performing gymnastics to music in front of judges to determine the winner (in sequence of a group one at a time) where the actions of another group has no bearing on your performance is anything like it then fine, just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

It's great you're proud of your nieces and have an interest in it, but it doesn't make it a sport in most peoples eyes and I really think you'd have a tough job getting a consensus on this or even close to one.

I'm not doubting their athleticism or physical ability, but such events don't seem like sport to me, maybe to you, and good luck, but most wouldn't agree.

You don’t know most wouldn’t, but hey, keep saying it anyway. You said you had an issue with pre rehearsed routines in sport, including gym. That’s what a 100 metres or a high jump is, it’s exactly that. The visualisation and execution of the various phases of a practiced routine.

by pedro Sat 20 Oct 2018, 12:29 pm

I think his point is that 100 m and high jump aren’t judged on more or less subjective criteria. But otherwise yes, it’s a rehearsed routine (just as some of the rants on here).

by super_realist Sat 20 Oct 2018, 1:21 pm

By Diggers definition then everything which has a winner can be deemed a sport.

So I'll look forwards to the winner of Crufts getting Sports Personality of the Year this year.

Yes, you could say that the 100m is a rehearsed routine, but you could say the same for a golf swing couldn't you? Neither have this subjective judging and choreographed artistic routine though.

My issue is I don't see it as a competitive sport, at best I might concede it's a participation sport/activity. I can't see a choreographed routine as something competitive.

by Diggers Sat 20 Oct 2018, 1:34 pm

I could say it yes...because it’s an absolute fact. I’ve stated earlier my definition of a sport, if you bothered to read it you’d see why Crufts wouldn’t meet the criteria. But again, if it makes you feel better just keep talking nonsense.
In terms of competiitive cheer being considered a sport by hardly anyone, well the IOC ratified it as have the main sporting bodies for countries around the world. So whether you agree or not, plenty of people consider it to be sport. I can’t say most or more, as unlike you I don’t want to make something up.

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