PGA Tour: European Exhibitionists . . . and A New Season Underway: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Lots on the Ryder Cup elsewhere, but a few thoughts here starting with a headline two weeks ago from one of the US's few world class papers, The Wall Street Journal.
They headlined an article about Paris Le Golf National:
"US Golfers ponder foreign concept - hitting fairways".
And so it proved.
Only Rickie Fowler (52nd) of the leading 92 in the Tour's "Driving Accuracy" stat made the Team; Finau, Reed and Mickelson all in the bottom 20 in that stat.
Big irony for moi was that the "Billy Horschel Rule", last-minute pick for the in-form American, went to the guy 180th in driving accuracy (although obviously Finau played very well) instead of, say Billy Horschel who finished one place (5th) in front of Finau and was 16th on Tour in driving accuracy and 3rd in Greens In Regulation; not quite Stenson-esque - he led both stats - but better than anyone remotely in contention other than the very excellent Kyle Stanley.

2).Not quite sure the US Team structure is correct - Mickelson and Woods were part of the asylum's Task Force management team right up until a month ago, and probably right through the weekend.
Did they exert undue influence?
If Phil and Tiger were exhausted, why didn't one or both stand down, or sit out one of the Play-Off events??
Did their partnership preferences trump team efficacy until it was too late???
At least Jim Furyk didn't have a cabbage thrown at him . . . . . .

3).Nobel Prize Physics Laureate-elect DeChambeau will never get a better lesson that, in golf at least, team chemistry surpasses individual physics when all else is equal.
Good for Justin Thomas for playing in Paris last June. Looks like he learned a bit and could be the natural leader for Team USA that they haven't had for ages.
(PS: The "tourists" on this board last week gave Rory a hard time, but I would've thought he played quite well, from Friday lunchtime onwards anyway, though I'd still have preferred him lower in the batting order.)

4).Congrats to Le Golf National. I thought it was a terrible choice of venue, but it looked great and was a proper test.
And raised doubts on Brooks Koepka's mantra: "I'll back my wedge from the rough against someone else's 6-iron from the fairway any day".
The Europeans have their work cut out to emulate Paris.

5).What did we learn about upcoming Captaincies?
Sounds as if Stricker is first in line for the USA, partly because it'll be a home game (relatively speaking) for him in Wisconsin. Would think he needs to learn lessons from Furyk before accepting, especially vis-a-vis a certain T.Woods. Who would you choose?
And Rory's premature extrapolation that Harrington should lead the Europeans seems a bit, well, premature. I'd like to see Bjorn again, thought he did great. Interestingly, the four Continental European captains have all won. I'm not convinced either Padraig or Westwood will be good captains. And there'll be tears after that with Poulter, Stenson, Donald, Casey, Rose, Garcia, McDowell all with distinguished RC careers but all stuck in the 38 - 42 years age range.

6).The 2018/2019 PGA Tour season is up and running already, at Silverado in California's gorgeous Napa Valley.
Hopefully the heat will be on the course this year and not the fires that overwhelmed part of the Silverado Resort and Spa complex, and sky-boxes on the course, the evening following the 2017's tournament conclusion. Several officials and volunteers at the event lost their homes in the inferno, so fingers crossed birdies and eagles will be the only thing lighting up the action for the next four days.

7).Brendan Steele has won the last two events here and finished Top 25 the previous two years; Martin Laird has 3rd, 8th and 17th place finishes to launch three of his last four campaigns giving him crucial momentum to get FedEx Points on the board early. You'd think at least half the field would have similar motivation.
My one-and-done choice is Sang Moon Bae who won here three years ago and will be coming in either hot from his wtF win a few weeks ago, or cold thru not having played since.

8).Phil is in this week's field, the only Ryder Cup participant playing here - he's Top 10'd here the last two years, but I won't be backing him to be playing this weekend. His way forward could be an interesting path, less travelled no doubt, these next few months.
And the same could also be said of Danny Willett who endured a similarly dismal Ryder Cup experience at Hazeltine. Does his presence in this week's field portend a commitment to PGA Tour play this season?

9).Messrs Goosen, Pavin, Graham Marsh, Calvin Peete, Jim Ferrier and Sutton join Dottie Pepper, Jan Stephenson, Sandra Palmer, Beverly Hanson, Catherine Lacoste and Susie Maxwell as announced candidates for 2019 World Golf Hall Of Fame induction. A very weak line-up I would have thought.
Perhaps Retief, Cowboy Sutton, Pepper and Maxwell would be possibles, but this looks a pretty sub-standard group. (There is also a Lifetime Achievement category.)

10).Talking of Silverado fires and weather-related phenomena, I see Hurricane Sergio is loitering with intent in the Pacific. It won't affect Silverado, but what karma if it did!

pedro wrote:Haha very funny super. Despite the numerous specific attributes I think you just nailed down 30% of the UK male population.

I forgot to add Greggs eating as well.

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Not being entirely serious but who do you think the average UFC fan is?

On the not too serious note, my stereotypical view of an average MME fan would be someone who was probably involved in manual labour and with a low level of education, low income, lives in a rough part of town, drives a ghastly peasant car like a Vauxhall probably too fast  and aggressively, likes a bit of road rage and  without doubt has modifications like red seatbelt covers and large exhaust, probably has numerous tattoos, especially their children's birthdates and cheesy quotes like "Only God Can Jugde me"  (spelling clearly wrong and written in an cliched font)  rarely if ever  has read a book, probably listens to techno or mainstream drivel, most likely has  children by more than one mother and at a very young age, without doubt also supports football (and one of the more scummy clubs like West Ham, Milwall, Rangers etc) and will happily wear the shirt in public (or at work), goes on holiday "with the lads" to Spain and hangs a flag from the balcony, thinks Albufera is a great destination,  would drink a pint at 4am at the airport, bets heavily on sports and especially concerned with "the coupon",  wears pristinely white trainers, sometimes with grey tracksuit trousers, wears Stone Island/Abercrombie/Superdry/Fred Perry/Diesel when "going out", ogles women and makes terrible remarks, watches wretched tv reality programmes like Love Island, sees Conor McGregor as a "hero" despite him making Hamilton look like a decent chap.

Actually, sounds exactly like the only person I know who likes MME.

I can't exactly see a Doctor, Judge, Dentist, Lawyer, Scientist, Farmer, Optician, Teacher etc making up large numbers of the baying mob that follow MME.

Just to add a Maccism in there...do you think these attributes help them get laid most weekends as well Super?

No evidence they do , and even if they do, I could imagine they are getting laid with women of similarly dubious quality to them, i.e the sort of woman who has 5 kids by 6 different dads, a smoking habit and a Croydon Facelift, works as a beauty therapist or in a nail bar and shops in Iceland or Farmfoods.

You don’t have to marry them, super.

pedro wrote:You don’t have to marry them, super.

One must have standards Pedro.

super

I just realised there is a MMA section on this site. Sorry but I couldn't resist.

McLaren wrote:super

I just realised there is a MMA section on this site.  Sorry but I couldn't resist.  

Very immature to cross post one of super's comments there though

McLaren wrote:super

I just realised there is a MMA section on this site.  Sorry but I couldn't resist.  

I think there's a wrestling one too Mac.

Davie wrote:

McLaren wrote:super

I just realised there is a MMA section on this site.  Sorry but I couldn't resist.  

Very immature to cross post one of super's comments there though

This wrestling and MME stuff is a bit strange. It's entertainment but is it sport? I don't really see the appeal of semi naked oiled up men grappling with each other.

Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

raycastleunited wrote: I don't really see the appeal of semi naked oiled up women grappling with each other.

fixed it

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yup, Many schools have competitive cheerleading as well.

No sign of high school NASCAR, but some schools round here have bass-fishing teams, and most have all sorts of skiing/snowboarding teams (which is great!).
So far, no sign of huntin', shootin' or killin' animals, but perhaps just a matter of time.

kwinigolfer wrote:
So far, no sign of huntin', shootin' or killin' animals, but perhaps just a matter of time.

Well, they’ve started with other kids.

pedro wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:
So far, no sign of huntin', shootin' or killin' animals, but perhaps just a matter of time.

Well, they’ve started with other kids.

With Fentanyl as well as guns.

Wrestling is a sport, not wwe type wrestling obvs. Mma is also clearly a sport, its as much as judo and taekwondo or boxing.

MMA is no different to WWE - it's all faked

MMA might be a "sport" but it's a stupid sport, like someone playing golf against someone with a tennis racket over a football pitch. Just a manufactured load of rubbish to cater for people with 65 inch TV's in their tiny living rooms.

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Davie wrote:MMA is no different to WWE - it's all faked

Yeah, if you say so.

it fits far better in the category of "sporting entertainment" than a real sport - just like WWE. Boxing is going the same way with clowns like Tyson Fury

Boxing is basically fixed is it not? Even if the fighters themselves don't through a fight willingly the match ups are such that a surprise is rare.

super_realist wrote:MMA might be a "sport" but it's a stupid sport, like someone playing golf against someone with a tennis racket over a football pitch. Just a manufactured load of rubbish to cater for people with 65 inch TV's in their tiny living rooms.

What is it with you? If it was simply called 'Fighting', could you understand that? There's skill in fighting, with whatever techniques, whether you like it or not and, sadly for you, they are both strong and fit as well.
You are not the arbiter of what's defined as sport or gifted with the second sight necessary to accurately portray the type of person who watches anything. If you don't like MMA, fine.

Davie wrote:it fits far better in the category of "sporting entertainment" than a real sport - just like WWE. Boxing is going the same way with clowns like Tyson Fury

Ah yes, best to stick to the biathlon then. Real sport and all that.

McLaren wrote:Boxing is basically fixed is it not? Even if the fighters themselves don't through a fight willingly the match ups are such that a surprise is rare.

Fury vs. Klitchko?
Klitchko vs Joshua?
Smith vs Groves?
Pacquiao vs. Hoon?
Froch vs Groves 1?
Benn vs McClellan?
Ali vs Foreman?

Just off the top of my head. You have a point re. engineered fights not really being competitive and I guess some have really been thrown (note spelling) in the past. I guess you aren't interested in boxing though.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Davie wrote:it fits far better in the category of "sporting entertainment" than a real sport - just like WWE. Boxing is going the same way with clowns like Tyson Fury

Ah yes, best to stick to the biathlon then. Real sport and all that.

Davie wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Davie wrote:it fits far better in the category of "sporting entertainment" than a real sport - just like WWE. Boxing is going the same way with clowns like Tyson Fury

Ah yes, best to stick to the biathlon then. Real sport and all that.

Excellent riposte!

What's wrong with being entertained when watching sport?

Nothing wrong with being entertained but when the result is preordained it stops being a sport

If the sport needs to add “entertainment” to its core product of a competitive matchup, it’s in big trouble. That’s true of every pointless sporting add-on, from fireworks and dancers at T20 cricket, to the manufactured press conference bust-ups of boxing.

If the entertainment aspect supersedes the competitive aspect completely, then you’re left with a scripted nonsense like WWE. When the “result” has been set beforehand, it’s not sport any more; WWE can be entertaining sure, but so was Wacky Races and that doesn’t count as a motorsport.

I don’t think UFC has quite reached the stage of scripted predestined bouts yet, so it probably still passes as a sport, albeit a pretty grim one. But it’s a long way along the road to “sports entertainment”.

Worth pointing out though, that wrestling in general, as opposed to bastardised WWE, is one of the oldest true sports in existence. I wouldn’t dream of going to Japan and telling them that sumo isn’t a real sport, even though they’ve had their share of fixing scandals. Equally, the questions surrounding UFC don’t make taekwondo or judo any less real sports.

I think people are confusing mma and ufc. While linked, ufc is a company that promotes mma fights under its own banner, these are the much hyped over the Top big affairs people see.

Mma is the general term for the fighting and goes on around the world purely as a fight without the hype. I know soneone who fights mma in various gyms and places, its not fixed in any way, its as real as anything and is a proper fight. Anyone who thinks its not real should get involved in training and fighting themselves.

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:MMA might be a "sport" but it's a stupid sport, like someone playing golf against someone with a tennis racket over a football pitch. Just a manufactured load of rubbish to cater for people with 65 inch TV's in their tiny living rooms.

What is it with you? If it was simply called 'Fighting', could you understand that? There's skill in fighting, with whatever techniques, whether you like it or not and, sadly for you, they are both strong and fit as well.
You are not the arbiter of what's defined as sport or gifted with the second sight necessary to accurately portray the type of person who watches anything. If you don't like MMA, fine.

You're spot on, I'm not the arbiter of what defines a sport, I didn't say I was, nor did I even infer it, however, I am entitled to my opinion, just like you. I notice you aren't jumping up and down to condemn the majority of other people who are saying they don't like it.

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Yeah, because Cheese Rolling and bog snorkelling are really taken seriously and are always referred to as sports aren't they? Oh wait a minute, they aren't.

What a stupid comparison.

beninho wrote:I think people are confusing mma and ufc. While linked, ufc is a company that promotes mma fights under its own banner, these are the much hyped over the Top big affairs people see.

Mma is the general term for the fighting and goes on around the world purely as a fight without the hype. I know soneone who fights mma in various gyms and places, its not fixed in any way, its as real as anything and is a proper fight. Anyone who thinks its not real should get involved in training and fighting themselves.

Personally I don't consider fighting to be a sport.

I know boxing is very popular, but I don't think beating people up is entertainment.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:MMA might be a "sport" but it's a stupid sport, like someone playing golf against someone with a tennis racket over a football pitch. Just a manufactured load of rubbish to cater for people with 65 inch TV's in their tiny living rooms.

What is it with you? If it was simply called 'Fighting', could you understand that? There's skill in fighting, with whatever techniques, whether you like it or not and, sadly for you, they are both strong and fit as well.
You are not the arbiter of what's defined as sport or gifted with the second sight necessary to accurately portray the type of person who watches anything. If you don't like MMA, fine.

You're spot on, I'm not the arbiter of what defines a sport, I didn't say I was, nor did I even infer it, however, I am entitled to my opinion, just like you. I notice you aren't jumping up and down to condemn the majority of other people who are saying they don't like it.

No, I'm not. But they don't do it in such a ridiculous and needlessly disparaging way. You're not simply saying you don't like something; you're implying things about others who do like that same thing.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Yeah, because Cheese Rolling and bog snorkelling are really taken seriously and are always referred to as sports aren't they? Oh wait a minute, they aren't.

What a stupid comparison.

You mention cheerleaders and marching bands etc and then disparage what I mention? Just stop and read the nonsense you're capable of posting once in a while.

How is NASCAR getting lumped in with monster trucks and tractor pulling? Anyway monster trucks was one of the first "motorsports" I was into. Must have been on TV in the early 90's.


But I am basically with Ned on this one, if the "entertainment" surrounding the sport is there to boost the fun in watching the actual sport you have a problem. Which is partly why I didn't find this years Ryder cup interesting at all. Strip away the teammates whooping at each other, the boisterous crowd and Sky sports hype and you have a series of golf matches that were rarely close and an overall score that was't in doubt from day one.

Mac, what about all the other entertainment that promoters are having to put on at F1 events to attract people in? Are you saying that F1 is not a sport?

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Yeah, because Cheese Rolling and bog snorkelling are really taken seriously and are always referred to as sports aren't they? Oh wait a minute, they aren't.

What a stupid comparison.

You mention cheerleaders and marching bands etc and then disparage what I mention? Just stop and read the nonsense you're capable of posting once in a while.

Anyone who doesn’t think cheerleading is a sport is very wrong. My niece is Australian, her cheer team are national champions and utterly brilliant gymnasts. It’s all judged vey precisely and fairly, it’s really big in the UK now as well, loads of clubs round here.

Digs,
I'll agree that some cheerleaders are athletic and fine gymnasts, often better at what they do than the lads they're cheering for are at their sport.

But that doesn't make it any more a sport than, say, ballet. Does it?

Diggers wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Yeah, because Cheese Rolling and bog snorkelling are really taken seriously and are always referred to as sports aren't they? Oh wait a minute, they aren't.

What a stupid comparison.

You mention cheerleaders and marching bands etc and then disparage what I mention? Just stop and read the nonsense you're capable of posting once in a while.

Anyone who doesn’t think cheerleading is a sport is very wrong. My niece is Australian, her cheer team are national champions and utterly brilliant gymnasts. It’s all judged vey precisely and fairly, it’s really big in the UK now as well, loads of clubs round here.

Even F1 is more of a sport than that.

Think you are confusing watching cheerleading at games and cheerleading competitions, which is basically groups of gymnastics competing against each other. I’m sure a lot of the people do both. But like I say, in competition they do set routines with incredible degrees of difficulty abd are judged on that and timing, no different really to synchronised diving in a sense. It’s very, very competitive and most definitely a sport.

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Is it entertainment? Kinda missed that part.

Wrestling is big in some school sports programmes over here - ghastly idea of sport. What's the point?

Americans are pretty weird though. Cheerleaders, marching bands, wrestling, NASCAR, Monster Trucks, tractor pulling, WWE etc.

Yeah, because cheese rolling and bog snorkelling is less weird eh? Just accept they have a different culture to us.

Yeah, because Cheese Rolling and bog snorkelling are really taken seriously and are always referred to as sports aren't they? Oh wait a minute, they aren't.

What a stupid comparison.

You mention cheerleaders and marching bands etc and then disparage what I mention? Just stop and read the nonsense you're capable of posting once in a while.

Anyone who doesn’t think cheerleading is a sport is very wrong. My niece is Australian, her cheer team are national champions and utterly brilliant gymnasts. It’s all judged vey precisely and fairly, it’s really big in the UK now as well, loads of clubs round here.

 Even F1 is more of a sport than that.

How many cheer competitions have you been to or watched? Ooh, let me guess, just enough to be able to have an opinion...cue usual “Everyone can have an opinion...blah, blah, Muslims are crap, Tiger is an arse” Love sacks.

No Diggers, I'm not confusing it. It's the fact that something is judged on artistic merit that I can't quite square a circle on. Therefore I put it in the same bracket as synchronised swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.

I'm sure they are excellent athletes/gymnasts, but I just don't really see the competitive element to it. I don't see things which are predetermined and a routine to actually be particularly sporting.

I know not everyone will agree with the assessment though.


p.s Islam is crap, is that even in question?

Hate agreeing with super but I do on this, more or less.

I can see the competitive aspect, but dancing is competitive and that’s not a sport.

It’s not just artistic, it’s obviously physical. Not all of them can do the same moves, which are judged on how they are performed technically before artistically. This is exactly like a floor routine in gym, which both my kids do competitively, so I know exactly how you it’s scored.
Have your opinion, that’s fine, it’s just an ignorant one.

1An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Thats the dictionary definition. Theres a lot of things that are sports that people don't like. Doesn't mean you can't class them as s sport, just means you don't like them. Why can't people like just say they don't like or don't care for sonetjing without havibg to denigrate it.

“Physical exertion and skill”. I’ve seen plenty of old farts taking their buggies round the golf course who barely scrape the physical exertion definition. And it rules out darts and snooker entirely to name but two. There’s plenty of exertion in the more energetic dance styles too but they’re not sports.

For me anything that requires subjective judging on “routines” struggles to count as a sport. I have to stretch my view of what a sport is if I include diving or gymnastics, so cheerleading and synchronised swimming are a step too far I’m afraid.

Ned, the judging really isn’t subjective. It’s incredibly precise, the whole artistic judging thing is a massive misconception from people who don’t understand what they are actually looking for, which is the ability to produce incredible physical and technical gymnastics.
I only get this from my kids competing, and my niece competing in cheer at a really high level. You get very little contention in the judges results, listen to the diving commentary, they know straight away the scores the competitors will get because there is no real margin for variance of the technical skill shown, it’s far, far more accurate than say judging a boxing match.

Diggers wrote:It’s not just artistic, it’s obviously physical. Not all of them can do the same moves, which are judged on how they are performed technically before artistically. This is exactly like a floor routine in gym, which both my kids do competitively, so I know exactly how you it’s scored.
Have your opinion, that’s fine, it’s just an ignorant one.

I'm fine with that Diggers. I understand it's physical, but so are lots of things. It's the SUBJECTIVE element I disagree with relating to the artistic part of it.
So that goes for gymnastics, diving, snowboarding, synchronised swimming etc.  Someone winning on the basis of someone elses opinion doesn't meet the criteria for "sport" or "competition" in my book.

Funny how I'm ignorant just because you disagree with me, and to think I get accused of being intolerant. I've explained pretty clearly that it is because it is JUDGED and is already a prearranged routine and not subject to what others do that means it doesn't contain sufficient competitive content for me.

Also, I would also agree that golf, darts and snooker are not sports either. They fail the shoes and trouser test.