My Dad's bigger than your Dad

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Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1:  Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2:  Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]




New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21) 
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Taylorman wrote:Hansen turning the screws on Shields...

‘But Hansen is certain that Shields won't be able to protect himself from the mixed feelings he'll have at Twickenham.

It won't be so easy for him to pretend that a little piece of him isn't dying inside that he's wearing a white jersey instead of a black one.

The strangeness of seeing some of his closest friends in the other team, fulfilling the dream he too held for 27 years, will hit him hard – probably when the anthems are played and then again when the haka is performed.”

Probably unnecessary but also stating the obvious. This is what can happen when you make choices. Im sure he’ll love the occasion, and the Canes boys will have their little reunion afterwards. Think he’ll want to get a good hit on Barrett on at least one occasion.

When my son was 7 he discovered he had to play in a tag festival against his best friend, who was playing for a rival team. Even worse, that team was Harlequins, and he felt a real existential challenge over having to face a team that he had supported for years. He very nearly refused to play, but we got him on the pitch, he took a tag and then there was no stopping him. Afterwards, he declared that it was more fun playing against your friends, and he's always played even harder when there's someone he knows on the opposing side.

I know the All Blacks have a kind of unique allure, but I think Mr Hansen is overestimating the hankering a player might feel for a ship that's sailed, and underestimating the motivational power of delivering a big "screw you" to a team that rejected him.

The Head Coach doth protest too much, methinks.

It's an interesting point Taylor on this and the other thread on the emotion involved for shields and nz here. Emotion plays a pivotal role in matches obviously: who deals with it better will be important. Hansen is clearly wanting to raise those stakes but we've seen this relatively inexperienced nz side tip too far at times. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Hansen turning the screws on Shields...

That's what Sky presenter Rupert Fox (a Kiwi) was referring to when he wondered whether Hansen was being "ungracious".

Pre match banter, Hansens now a master at it. Banter aside, he’s usually bang on with what he says, point being whether he should actually say it or not another thing.

But I guess when you have Jones comparing the haka to the Spice girls pre match banter is simply that, a lot of nerves flying around where people say the oddest things, as many of us here are currently...human nature...all part of the thrill....at leadt it gets you up in the morning.

Taylorman wrote:Hansen turning the screws on Shields...

‘But Hansen is certain that Shields won't be able to protect himself from the mixed feelings he'll have at Twickenham.

It won't be so easy for him to pretend that a little piece of him isn't dying inside that he's wearing a white jersey instead of a black one.

The strangeness of seeing some of his closest friends in the other team, fulfilling the dream he too held for 27 years, will hit him hard – probably when the anthems are played and then again when the haka is performed.”

Probably unnecessary but also stating the obvious. This is what can happen when you make choices. Im sure he’ll love the occasion, and the Canes boys will have their little reunion afterwards. Think he’ll want to get a good hit on Barrett on at least one occasion.

27 years is a long time to dream though. Most of us have to grow up and say we didn't make it as a lone Antarctic explorer cast adrift for 3 months alone on an iceberg with only a hungry polar bear for company. I lived that life, but not many people get to live it, is all I'm saying.

In short, it does seem that Hansen is taunting Shields that he didn't get picked.... and blaming him for giving up on the dream of being picked.... at 27 years of age.

Steve, he didn't get picked , mate.

But banter is banter, so carry on.

So if the ABs lose tomorrow will they

A) Blame it on a cold!
B) Blame the Chef at the Hotel.
C) Blame the Ref for not giving an accidental offside.
D) Blame England's negative tactics.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I know it seams really unlikely to a lot of people but I really think this England side are going to rattle New Zealand. They will not lack belief at all I dont think. England win on the cards.

Come from wishful thinking or genuine analysis? Where does England look better than this NZ side for example? How will they win this?

A few things.

England are in my view a bit of a sleeping giant at the moment, poor performances lately but very capable of putting in a very big performance and they wont need that much motivation for this game.

England's defense in my view is better than South Africa's and their win pretty much revolved around their defense and taking their chances when they came.

Its been a while since England beat the ABs and I think its a good time to turn that around now as it is unexpected.

I really think the ABs are targeting the Ireland game to really lay down a marker so might just lose focus for the England game.

I do still think the ABs have discipline issues and if they are going to be punished anywhere it will be in Twickers with a French ref. Unlike a lot of refs, Owens, Barnes etc. Jerome Garces is not going to get star struck by the ABs and if they deserve a red or yellow they will get one. I am well aware that you are loathe to believe that referees can make that much difference but I definitely believe that they do.

I know that Hansen wants McKensie as a second play maker against England as a tactic to unlock their well organised defense. However, I dont really rate McKensie as a starter and I feel the England back three will rip him apart.

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Hansen turning the screws on Shields...

‘But Hansen is certain that Shields won't be able to protect himself from the mixed feelings he'll have at Twickenham.

It won't be so easy for him to pretend that a little piece of him isn't dying inside that he's wearing a white jersey instead of a black one.

The strangeness of seeing some of his closest friends in the other team, fulfilling the dream he too held for 27 years, will hit him hard – probably when the anthems are played and then again when the haka is performed.”

Probably unnecessary but also stating the obvious. This is what can happen when you make choices. Im sure he’ll love the occasion, and the Canes boys will have their little reunion afterwards. Think he’ll want to get a good hit on Barrett on at least one occasion.

27 years is a long time to dream though.  Most of us have to grow up and say we didn't make it as a lone Antarctic explorer cast adrift for 3 months alone on an iceberg with only a hungry polar bear for company.  I lived that life, but not many people get to live it, is all I'm saying.

In short, it does seem that Hansen is taunting Shields that he didn't get picked.... and blaming him for giving up on the dream of being picked.... at 27 years of age.

Steve, he didn't get picked , mate.

But banter is banter, so carry on.

Dont think Shields would make this current squad anyway, he doesnt have the explosiveness or speed we’re looking for in a 6. Squire, Frizzell, Fifita who was chosen at 6 despite playing lock for the Canes while Shields was at 6. Shields is a grinder, will tackle all day and is very much the team player, but just lacks that zing, and is why he never got selected, though Hansen did offer it last year. Certainly would never have owned the starting six spot.

its typical Hansen stirring, and like it or not, its his perrogative, Shields did make his choice and he of all will know what to expect. Theyre all loving this anyway.

TightHEAD wrote:So if the ABs lose tomorrow will they

A) Blame it on a cold!
B) Blame the Chef at the Hotel.
C) Blame the Ref for not giving an accidental offside.
D) Blame England's negative tactics.

E) Blame the commentator for standing on his head whilst reading out the result: Eng 18 Nz 69.
F) Blame the rider of the horse they all betted on. Can't win everything I suppose.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I know it seems really unlikely to a lot of people but I really think this England side are going to rattle New Zealand...

I don't think people regard it as unlikely in the "You are having a laugh," sense. We've won seven against New Zealand, and drawn one, and we were only really given a good chance in two of those (2002/2003). There have been cases where we thougth we would be competitive and lost (1991 and others).

Since there have been cases of what looks like an outmatched England side turning the tables on New Zealand, then it's quite possible here too. If it does happen, then we'll remind ourselves that many of these same players have beaten every other leadingTest side at least once over the last three years, so we were unwise to undersestimate their chances.

Still, it won't be a surprise if that doesn't happen, because the most predominant picture we have of the All Blacks is sweeping all before them. In defeat against Ireland and South Africa, they scored 4 tries and 6 tries respectively. We don't often score at a better rate than that, so we probably have to do what no-one has yet managed: beat the All Blacks and keep their score low.

All valid points the difference for me for this particular game is the focussed prep the ABs have done, the extra week lie in that England didnt get, the squad availability, this side is easily the best weve been able to field this year, possibly two to three years, and the English side, depleted of the big names the Vunipola brothers etc.

Big games are going to be needed by big players to knock this AB side off. I dont know half this English side as mist havent done a lot internationally, and thats not a good sign

Just re-watched the 2003 game England v NZ in New Zealand. Interesting game, Carlos Spencer was OH for NZ and was pretty terrible especially his goal kicking. England pack were very strong. Very tight game, NZ had what looked like a fair enough try disallowed and Spencer missed some really basic kicks. Can see the game on Sat going a little like that game.

I can see Mounga coming on in the second half for McKensie and Barrett going to full back.

SANZAR slam 2018. If anyone asks tell them Collapse2005 told you.

Collapse2005 wrote:

I can see Mounga coming on in the second half for McKensie and Barrett going to full back.

Yep, you can see that because that is exactly what will happen, Hansens made that clear.

The subs are set to light this match up if it hasnt already by then. Mo’unga has shown he can inject into a game immediately, Perenara has always found holes off the bench by targetting starters and crotty will add some pace and footwork when SBW goes off.

The real work will be with the tight five from the start. Englands scrum buckled all over the place last week and I think this tight five is much better, especially at subs time, Laulalas going to be a name to be reckoned with in a year or two if he can escape injury.

Kiwis are inderstandably excited by this side as its the first time weve been able to get nearly everyone we want on the field at the same time.

Collapse2005 wrote:SANZAR slam 2018. If anyone asks tell them Collapse2005 told you.

Dont worry we will. If it doesnt turn out is it Guns fault then?

Picking ireland to beat NZ yet? Or is Ireland not better than England? Logic says they should surely? Or is it just too personal a commitment to make as it is with a throwaway england prediction?

Gotta back your side at some point. Not long to go.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:SANZAR slam 2018. If anyone asks tell them Collapse2005 told you.

Dont worry we will. If it doesnt turn out is it Guns fault then?

Picking ireland to beat NZ yet? Or is Ireland not better than England? Logic says they should surely? Or is it just too personal a commitment to make as it is with a throwaway england prediction?

Gotta back your side at some point. Not long to go.

Thats fine you can tell me all about it if it doesnt pan out like that. However Guns is just another profile I have on another computer, same person so no I wont blame ot on Guns that would be stupid.

Id be much more confident of Ireland winning if Barnes wasnt ref. Ireland only win just over a third of the games he refs as such it throws up too many unknowns.

Any of the French refs and Id back Ireland by 5 to 10.

Oh yep, I just use an ipad, theyre terrible for typos and often I cant be bothered fixing them. Somehow ive picked up two logins, one with a small t at the start. Two different passwords, dont remember doing that either. Must be getting senile

Yeah exactly cant be bothered switching logins. Everyone knows its me anyway.

Very excited for tomorrow. You?

Can't really see the AB's not winning, but don't think it will be by much. It is still 15 vs 15 (or 23 vs 23 if you prefer) and England won't be easy to break down.

It'll be high-scoring, but I think England will join in.

Wonder what beshocked would say if ashton manages to play better than may tomorrow. For once I don't care hattrick hero!

Eddie's year long strategic feint is about to be unleashed. Expect an England unrecognisable from the underperforming mob of the last year. The trap has been set. The ABs won't be able to psyche themselves up into the right frame of mind to meet an England so aggressive and domineering. Shock about to be unleashed.


Pay me in the usual brown envelope to the Swiss bank Account, RFU.

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah exactly cant be bothered switching logins. Everyone knows its me anyway.

Very excited for tomorrow. You?

Yeah its gonna be great. Tests dont often pan out the way you expect and after the match most of the prematch banter gets replaced by actuals and the Irish match will start getting a roll on. Id have preferred Mako, Billy etc were available as theyre great to watch. Still think this ones going to be a bit one sided, Ireland clearly the tougher prospect.

SecretFly wrote:Eddie's year long strategic feint is about to be unleashed.  Expect an England unrecognisable from the underperforming mob of the last year.  The trap has been set.  The ABs won't be able to psyche themselves up into the right frame of mind to meet an England so aggressive and domineering.  Shock about to be unleashed.


Pay me in the usual brown envelope to the Swiss bank Account, RFU.  

Aren't they doing this whole thing a year early?

T/man beware the curse of the Emack,taking my name in vain.My relatives on my
Fathers side come from south island,Todd isn`t related but i`d be proud if he was.
12 minutes v AUS but what a 12 minutes he was everywhere.Joe Roff is related on
my mothers side.
The ABs have been sorted by refs pedantic at scrums playing by guess work,very
strong side Dmack in for his goal kicking.
Don`t have an opinion on result its 50/50 like all games,if its wet Nz`s chances improve
best mudlarks on the planet.Close Nz win 7 or so.

alanmackie6 wrote:T/man beware the curse of the Emack,taking my name in vain.My relatives on my
Fathers side come from south island,Todd isn`t related but i`d be proud if he was.
12 minutes v AUS but what a 12 minutes he was everywhere.Joe Roff is related on
my mothers side.
The ABs have been sorted by refs pedantic at  scrums playing by guess work,very
strong side Dmack in for his goal kicking.
Don`t have an opinion on result its 50/50 like all games,if its wet Nz`s chances improve
best mudlarks on the planet.Close Nz win 7 or so.

In all honesty if ABs win by 7 with this side, and against this England side, we wont win next years world cup. Fir one, England will be stronger than this next year, we wont be a much better side. We might play better with the prep but we wont have different players. This is probably 19- 20 of our best 23, the only ones that may come back in Cane, Moody, and I think George Bridge will force his way in somewhere, hes stunned with every outing and came on vs Japan as one of the best of the day.

Yeah. It's obviously just mistakes and refs being pedantic whenever anyone gets the better of new zealand.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah.  It's obviously just mistakes and refs being pedantic whenever anyone gets the better of new zealand.

Still got that little green man problem huh?

I still think it will be two scores difference come final whistle. I'd love to be wrong like I was last week but nz will be too strong with so much experience to rely on. Here's hoping no one gets injured.

Martians? I'm surprised you're so eager to embrace a guy like Alan after your kicking of guys like shields.

Kicking? Thats just banter. Shields will have expected to be ribbed by kiwis many times about playing for England, geez, hed never even been there for anything much else.

He knows it, we know it....but somehow...you dont. Hmmm...

Hey as long as we agree Alan is a glory seeking plastic who doesn't get scrums, all s good.

I am well aware of the ways of the front row mafia.and the scrum.Poite.Pepyer.Barnes
all are obsessed by scrum resets.To be fair they do it by the numbers so as many both
teams are treated the same.
The plastic bit is a total cliche,and you could`nt recognize a decen t scrum if it bit you

Nah. You have not a clue. Hence the unending excuses. Pedantic scrums. Matches being decided by refs etc etc. I appreciate you need to constantly justify your adopted station but give it a rest. Plastic is a cliché but it describes you succinctly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nah. You have not a clue. Hence the unending excuses. Pedantic scrums. Matches being decided by refs etc etc. I appreciate you need to constantly justify your adopted station but give it a rest. Plastic is a cliché but it describes you succinctly.

Geez Ill bet tea and scones at your place are just dandy.

Not a big fan of scone unless they're savoury. I do dislike all ilks who blame a ref over their own teams deficiencies though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a big fan of scone unless they're savoury. I do dislike all ilks who blame a ref over their own teams deficiencies though.

Whos doing that? And whats it got to do with this thread? That hasnt happened yet. Nor is it likely too. Youre just having a random, out of context, unrelated moan then?

WHO`S blaming the Refs for my teams[adopted]defencies,?the three mentioned
are constantly resetting scrums.THAT is a fact not everyone wants to see endless
resets.It favours sides with less dominant Scrums a chance to slow the game down.definition of an ilk a bird that flies backwards describes you to a t

Alan has. And does it consistently. You may not agree with all ref calls. I don't think I have ever been but it's the players that influence the match by far. Moaning about cards being the decisive feature or saying that new zealand have been sorted by the refs is childish grasping to make supporting aside the other side of world palatable.

Ah cool thanks Alan. So you take back that new zealand have been sorted by the refs. You take back that cards decide matches. Etc etc. Play to the rules. If a scrum needs resetting it should be reset.

Such arrogance to decide who one should or should not support ,the card thing was
in answer to those here.Who think Nz are never punished .The rule/law about tackles
or contesting in the air is not black and white or similar.Once there were different
interpratations for each hemisphere now its supposed be standardised.Also TMO`s
should advise NOT dictate to a referee.

You'll be glad by the new tmo rules then Alan. And it's not arrogance to say you're a glory plastic boy. That's just a fact. Glad to see you'll lay off the refs being at fault for results in future.

I just love being quoted out of context to score cheap points.WHEN a side has beaten
Nz i`m the first to congratulate them[check it out]I don`t have to do it often.Its
blowing a gale here frankly expected Nz to lose in Aus.tomorrow just hope its a good
match an old fashioned Otago style slugfest will suit me at least this one can watch.

Like I said it'll be good not to read the silly little excuses like refs enforcing the laws. Refreshing. Still a shame you don't support your own nation though.

With Garces it’ll be a bit of a lottery but England will be under more pressure than the ABs. Especially if the scoreboard gets away on them and if they struggle to score tries again. Hopefully Garces puts his pedantry to good effect and keeps an eye on England’s spoiling tactics or foul play when that happens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like I said it'll be good not to read the silly little excuses like refs enforcing the laws. Refreshing. Still a shame you don't support your own nation though.

Really? Why? And why isnt trying to play for your iwn nation not seen as poorly. Oh no, thats different the ignoramus will claim.

Geez, two faced argument that one. Alan can support who he wants. As I get told......’deal with it chump’, and quit moaning about it.

I agree. Foul play should be penalised wherever it happens ebop.
Alan does support who he wants. We can acknowledge hr has sod all to do with nz all the same.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree. Foul play should be penalised wherever it happens ebop.
Alan does support who he wants. We can acknowledge hr has sod all to do with nz all the same.

As much as Shields did England? Seen it on a map I think.

Good on ya Al, hope your favourite side wins tonight

Tomorrow afternoon you mean.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tomorrow afternoon you mean.

Great drainage that Twickenham has......but even so this rain will take off the edge.

Oh. You weren't talking about england vs new zealand, fair enough.
Alan supports england new zealand and scotland so I'm sure he'll end up being happy one way or another. He has enough teams covered.