My Dad's bigger than your Dad

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Date: Saturday 10th November 2018
Time: 15:00
Location: Twickenham Stadium

Referee:       Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant 1:  Jaco Peyper (SA)
Assistant 2:  Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO:            Marius Jonker (SA)




Teams


England

[size=42]15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 22 caps), 14 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 14 caps), 12 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 14 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 62 caps) co-captain, 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 78 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 94 caps) co-captain, 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 14 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 23 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 26 caps), 6 Brad Shields (Wasps, 3 caps), 7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 6 caps), 8 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 5 caps).[/size]
[size=42]Finishers[/size]
[size=42]16 Jamie George (Saracens, 29 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 3 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps), 19 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 7 caps), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 65 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 82 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps).[/size]




New Zealand

1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (10)
2. Codie Taylor (39)
3. Owen Franks (104)
4. Samuel Whitelock (106)
5. Brodie Retallick (72)
6. Liam Squire (21) 
7. Ardie Savea (32)
8. Kieran Read - captain (115)
9. Aaron Smith (80)
10. Beauden Barrett (70)
11. Rieko Ioane (21)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (50)
13. Jack Goodhue (5)
14. Ben Smith (74)
15. Damian McKenzie (20)

16. Dane Coles (57)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (23)
18. Nepo Laulala (14)
19. Scott Barrett (26)
20. Matt Todd (15)
21. TJ Perenara (52)
22. Richie Mo'unga (5)
23. Ryan Crotty (42

Crappy game all round. ABs deserved the win simply because England were dormant for forty minutes, kicking everything for zero advantage, deciding to do something only in the last ten.

The non try was very unlucky but literal interpretation of that particular law had the player offside before he made his run. He never returned to a full onside position.

Still, very unfortunate as the flanker ran well to score.

England can take a lot from that. ABs need to be better than that next week, hopefully its better weather. Awful match overall, too many handling errors too much water having a say.

Hard luck English fans, wouldnt have minded losing to that try, was a good one.
Is Millenium free?

Still think correct call - he's in an offside position from the start

Unlucky not to the try (fine try imo) but you win some, you lose some. Big effort from the lads with a some big players they stood toe to toe and were the better side for much of the game.

Underwhelmed by NZ. Fantastic backline, but Retalick aside, that's not a great pack. If they don't improve by a good margin, Ireland will win by a decent score.

NZ just showed that bit more composure. Made the right decisions and executed. Although why Barrett spent the first 20 minutes just aimlessly kicking is incredible

Why were the All Black defenders allowed to lie all over the back of the ruck for the last 3-4 minutes? England were clearly trying to line up a drop goal and they slowed in down.

Well done on the win Taylor.

With the possible exception of a fit Billy V, I think that could be our first choice starting pack.

George needs to convert to prop or something, he's an absolute liability. How many tests now have we seen our lineout fall to bits once Hartley goes off. We desperately need a 2nd hooker that can throw.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Still think correct call - he's in an offside position from the start

Forced perspective there due to camera angle

Well done NZ, takes a lot to come away and win from the position they were in.

Congrats NZ though

[quote="Cumbrian"]Why were the All Black defenders allowed to lie all over the back of the ruck for the last 3-4 minutes? England were clearly trying to line up a drop goal and they slowed in down.[/quote]

Can't blame the ABs, they played the ref. Garces made it clear that 'accidentally' ending up on the floor tangled up with the 9 was fine.

Well done England,a very good result from them,Nz well a win is a win.
Hopefully next week will be a better game and better weather.This result
means nothing next year of course.

mid_gen wrote:With the possible exception of a fit Billy V, I think that could be our first choice starting pack.

George needs to convert to prop or something, he's an absolute liability. How many tests now have we seen our lineout fall to bits once Hartley goes off. We desperately need a 2nd hooker that can throw.

Mako to come back too.

1. Mako
2. Hartley
3..Sinkler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Wilson
7. Underhill
8. Billy

Be happy with this....although perhaps not with the lineout.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Still think correct call - he's in an offside position from the start

Where is the English 'back foot' in that picture?

Called it...

Cumbrian wrote:Why were the All Black defenders allowed to lie all over the back of the ruck for the last 3-4 minutes? England were clearly trying to line up a drop goal and they slowed in down.

I wondered that too ...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Unlucky not to the try (fine try imo) but you win some, you lose some. Big effort from the lads with a some big players they stood toe to toe and were the better side for much of the game.

Underwhelmed by NZ. Fantastic backline, but Retalick aside, that's not a great pack. If they don't improve by a good margin, Ireland will win by a decent score.

Yes it wasnt great, theyll improve with the run but very so so. Think England would have done better if theyd used more of the ball we gave them first half of the second half but kudos to England fronting with so many out.

Perenara went better than Smith for us and suits this type of game. Dmac was typically way up (try and a couple of runs) and way down (charged down, kicks out on the full etc).

Still, the offside was so marginal, may have made the difference in getting to Perenaras kick but I wouldnt have minded if it was given. Would have made a good night for the scorer!

Cheers Taylor

mid_gen wrote:With the possible exception of a fit Billy V, I think that could be our first choice starting pack.

George needs to convert to prop or something, he's an absolute liability. How many tests now have we seen our lineout fall to bits once Hartley goes off. We desperately need a 2nd hooker that can throw.

Was a great pack. Mako and Billy back will be ominous. Would have made the diff today. England look good for Japan, and Jones is clearly getting something right with his ability to get them into the game. The first twenty or thirty England were far more into it, our guys seemingly waiting it out.

Heaf wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Why were the All Black defenders allowed to lie all over the back of the ruck for the last 3-4 minutes? England were clearly trying to line up a drop goal and they slowed in down.

I wondered that too ...

I think being held in, Ball available, not interfering with play and the 9s rather pantomime attempts to win a pen by dramatically falling over the player worked against England.

Congrats NZ - a sneaked win.

Big commiserations England fans, you deserved to win that one.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well done on the win Taylor.

Cheers, Lucky with the try, Id already given it and the win, and was ok with that, then that happened. Not nice given it was a few inches if at all. As a prelude to next year, which is how I see these, we’re in for a close race of about 3 or 4 sides I reckon. Pity about the weather. Really enjoyed the English passion though, its infectious and I can see how it works for them.

Once New Zealand got their composure back, we never managed to knock them down again. We did keep them from scoring, and had chances ourselves, but we weren't cheated out of a win, we just couldn't do enough to get the edge back. Congratulations to a good New Zealand team, who took everything England, the crowd, and the weather threw at them.

Now that we've lost of course, we'll do more second-guessing over our own decisions. Funnily enough, I thought Farrell was right to call the line out on that penalty we didn't score on, but wrong on the second, because it was an easy kick.

That might seem counter-intuitive, because we'd just won a penalty, and might even have hoped for a yellow if the All Blacks infringed again, but I thought we were pushing our luck.

Yep feeling a lot more positive now ... they showed that offside call in the after match piece with a line drawn in and he still looks on-side to me - certainly not 'clear and obvious' which is what I thought was needed to overrule an on-field decision.

Still just another one of those things ... should really have tried for a drop-goal at the end as Farrell would be odds-on to get it.

Still can't believe Hartley was taken off at HT - that could have made the difference.

Jamie George's line-out debacle was reminiscent of Tom Youngs' similar struggle against NZ in 2014 (I think), which arguably cost England the win.

Just heard Hartley had a slight thumb issue so maybe it wasn't a daft decision after all ...

Hartley could have thrown better than George did with a hand of 5 thumbs, all dislocated.

It's not the first time he has bottled the big occasion.

Heaf wrote:Yep feeling a lot more positive now ... they showed that offside call in the after match piece with a line drawn in and he still looks on-side to me - certainly not 'clear and obvious' which is what I thought was needed to overrule an on-field decision.

Still just another one of those things ... should really have tried for a drop-goal at the end as Farrell would be odds-on to get it.

Still can't believe Hartley was taken off at HT - that could have made the difference.

In context though it was rough, a tiny thing like that, so disappointing for the try scorer who looked great in his little stop start on way to the line. Would have been good for the grand kids down the years.

Well what a performance thought we stole it at the end thank goodness the kids were out I swore out loud! I hope the tmo decision doesn't detract from a cracking game in the very wet. If the ref says it's offside it's offside end of. Kick our goals next time. Let's hope this gives the lads a bit of belief.

Yep I was impressed with the way a forward turned a back inside out ...

The main reason we lost, is that I couldn't stand the tension, and went to the toilet while the Underhill try was being reviewed. If I'd manned up, then the decision would have gone our way.

Yoda wrote:Well what a performance thought we stole it at the end thank goodness the kids were out I swore out loud! I hope the tmo decision doesn't detract from a cracking game in the very wet. If the ref says it's offside it's offside end of. Kick our goals next time. Let's hope this gives the lads a bit of belief.

It wasn't the ref though it was the TMO and even he didn't sound that convincing ... "from the pictures I've got ...."

Still one of those things and the team should certainly feel proud of their performance ... what a difference a week makes ...

Rugby Fan wrote:The main reason we lost, is that I couldn't stand the tension, and went to the toilet while the Underhill try was being reviewed. If I'd manned up, then the decision would have gone our way.

Well you need to get a grip in the future then

Rugby Fan wrote:The main reason we lost, is that I couldn't stand the tension, and went to the toilet while the Underhill try was being reviewed. If I'd manned up, then the decision would have gone our way.

No, I held on until it was clear that the TMO was calling offside.

Would have been a bit happier if any of NZ's offsides in the last couple of minutes had been called, but a great game all the same. England can probably take more from it than NZ, but I worry a bit about what Ireland will have to face.

Rugby Fan wrote:The main reason we lost, is that I couldn't stand the tension, and went to the toilet while the Underhill try was being reviewed. If I'd manned up, then the decision would have gone our way.

Does it for me, bog 2007 memories flooding back.

I thought England was very unlucky to day.

I really thought Lawes was on side, but the TMO said other wise.

Still a very good performance today from England. But a one point loss is still a loss.

Oh well. Just finished watching before dipping in late to wales aus. England will be kicking themselves though felt the match turned when shields went off with his hia. Didn't come back the same player for me before that imperious. Lot to take from that game but....ah. should have won.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:The main reason we lost, is that I couldn't stand the tension, and went to the toilet while the Underhill try was being reviewed. If I'd manned up, then the decision would have gone our way.

No, I held on until it was clear that the TMO was calling offside.

Would have been a bit happier if any of NZ's offsides in the last couple of minutes had been called, but a great game all the same. England can probably take more from it than NZ, but I worry a bit about what Ireland will have to face.

True, ABs will get a kick up the... and will want to up the ante vs Ireland. Good way to go into that match. Didnt notice any injuries though SBW went off early, though I wouldnt select him anyway.

Do you reckon there will be any changes for the Ireland match Taylor?

Crotty has to start surely, trucked up hard and straight as the fancy offloading game didn't work for Sonny. Thought goodhue looked better when Crotty was on too.

Stupid question as I'm rusty on the new offside at ruck. Is it still from the england players back foot for an England offside of is it now defined a different way?

Heaf wrote:Do you reckon there will be any changes for the Ireland match Taylor?

Crotty for one in for SBW but that will only happen if hes injured. Hansen like SBW for a reason that some of us question.

Still dont like DMac either starting or at FB. I would put Smith back to FB and bring George Bridge onto the wing, and have Mounga and DMac at sub, but he wont vs Ireland. We didnt need two playmakers today, not in that weather.

I dont know what he’ll make of the pack, perhaps think theyre better for 5he match as a few returned from injury very recently...Retallick, Coles, Laulala, Karl T, Squire. That should have done them well if so.

Retallick is simply magnificent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stupid question as I'm rusty on the new offside at ruck. Is it still from the england players back foot for an England offside of is it now defined a different way?

Didnt help he was slightly ahead of all the rest and there were All Blacks on that side of Irelands maul but I thought a pedantic decision regardless. Great initiative, great skills, great try. The game needed that to be honest, then perhaps all the rest...mistakes, rain etc wouldnt have defined it so much.

I take that as you don't know then Taylor! I don't. Website is still under the old rules.

Don't think the laws have changed - TMO just called it wrong IMO.  I think it was Youngs on the floor that was England's hindmost/only player so there wasn't actually a 'back foot'.  Maybe the TMO saw the AB's foot in the shot and got confused?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I take that as you don't know then Taylor!  I don't.  Website is still under the old rules.

Dont know whether its the whole maul or just your own players in it. He was definitely in front of some players, who its hard to tell from the other side of the field view we were given.

England were playing offside all game and the Lawes one was no different. Marginal but offside nonetheless.

On what is it based ebop. I don't think any of is know?