Brexit

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Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:He doesn't have to 'prove his innocence', that's not how the justice system in this country works.

But it's how the world intends it to work.................... it's probably called neo-socialism - ooh, sex-Y!.  
Anti establishment thought crimes to be punishable by no trial and a bullet down some cavernous prison complex dedicated to 're-education' of political dissidents.

Sex crimes as well? I don't see many people one here leaping to Weinstein's defence.

Yep. I would, until and unless he's convicted. Otherwise it's just hearsay and rumour.

So would Arron Banks

Meaning?

Poverty levels are dependent on the criteria being used, one source will say it's declining while another will say it's increasing, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

May suggested that crime levels have statistically been on the up because of more crime being recorded, now that could be complete rubbish but is another take on it, all in all who really knows when it comes to statistics.

It's always a confusing when Truss says one thing and Duty says the opposite, because the rest of us can't tell which one has guessed right.

It's politics, nobody is ever right, some are just less wrong than others.

Some are right, some are left.

El Radar wrote:May suggested that crime levels have statistically been on the up because of more crime being recorded, now that could be complete rubbish but is another take on it, all in all who really knows when it comes to statistics.

https://fullfact.org/crime/crime-england-and-wales/

Yes, the levels of police recorded crime are going up, but this is generally taken to be an unreliable measure.

Recorded crime is an unreliable measure as opposed to what being a reliable measure?

Reduction in police numbers and evisceration of the legal system will have an impact. It just takes time. And if it gives you material to blame someone else (e.g Sadiq Khan in London) well...

El Radar wrote:Recorded crime is an unreliable measure as opposed to what being a reliable measure?

All explained in the link I posted.

Duty281 wrote:

El Radar wrote:Recorded crime is an unreliable measure as opposed to what being a reliable measure?

All explained in the link I posted.

The link suggests there is no reliable measure. A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

It doesn't really explain anything, just provides supposition of why the numbers might be wrong whilst also giving a list of reasons why it's own figures are equally misleading. It's purely a representation of a small sample.

JuliusHMarx wrote:It's always a confusing when Truss says one thing and Duty says the opposite, because the rest of us can't tell which one has guessed right.

I appreciate your witty interludes...Can be a welcome distraction while the rest of us debate the topic in hand..

Who's counting?

8,400 crimes not recorded by Dyfed-Powys and Gwent police
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46455014

West Midlands Police 'fails to record 16,600 violent crimes'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46867657

and there's more. Not that i'm counting mind ewe.

Shambles.

If one was cynical...You could think that a dying Health Service...Shocking crime figures and abject Poverty is being drowned out by a Govt by keeping Brexit overload trending for over a year...

The fact the Country is a mess is being covered by a European blanket.

But like cross dressing I only do cynical at weekends.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If one was cynical...You could think that a dying Health Service...Shocking crime figures and abject Poverty is being drowned out by a Govt by keeping Brexit overload trending for over a year...

The fact the Country is a mess is being covered by a European blanket.

But like cross dressing I only do cynical at weekends.

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist, or is it a pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist?
Whatever.
Seems to me that brexit is the new fox hunting or the new anti semitic row when everybody went grrrr and got very cross.
Anyway it's a great time to bury bad news by the truck load. Tons of it about.

Fake news! Project Fear!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

To be honest would you want to invest in a country that is tearing itself apart?

Who the heck thought that ripping the country as a whole and bemoaning everything would give us a great starting point for negotiations. Any kid can you tell you that you need to have some position of strength. Absolutely ridiculous and at this point I blame the remainers and the brexiteers for not being able to get together and sort this Poopie out

JuliusHMarx wrote:Fake news! Project Fear!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-47102708

I always thought there was a bit of me that couldnt wait to say “I told you so” to an area that voted 61/39 (I believe) to Leave and then suffer the consequences, but now its a reality I feel really bad for these people. They were lied to and promised their jobs would be safe, now we’re looking at 7000 in one plant being thrown on the scrap heap.

Parliament need to wake up and stop this madness before its too late.

Derbymanc wrote:To be honest would you want to invest in a country that is tearing itself apart?

Who the heck thought that ripping the country as a whole and bemoaning everything would give us a great starting point for negotiations. Any kid can you tell you that you need to have some position of strength. Absolutely ridiculous and at this point I blame the remainers and the brexiteers for not being able to get together and sort this Poopie out

But not the people who voted for it?

I imagine the Working class people that voted leave were suffering from years of austerity...Low paid work and seeing Public services poorly funded...

When times are hard Johnny Foreigner gets it up the backside...Always has always will...(Trump's wall in 2016)..

Always easy to blame voters.....The inconvenient truth is when Establishment Politicians let you down...Populism flourishes...

Brexit is this Govt's failure....Crap timing... Crap arguments and a kicked can that has eventually hit a dead end !!

All true yet being understandable doesn't free them of the responsibility. A big chunk of them never voted in their lives before they came and voted for this. If they'd put in the effort before this they could have made their lives better long before this became an issue. Just wondering why the people who didn't vote for it and even warned against it are to blame. Cameron aside of course. The bar steward

Samo wrote:now we’re looking at 7000 in one plant being thrown on the scrap heap.

From the article: "Our correspondent said as the announcement was expected to be about planned future investment, the impact on Nissan's current workforce may be very minimal."

Duty is spinning lack of investment in the future as acceptable collateral damage. Because why should he care about future investment in British industry as long as he get what he wants?

JuliusHMarx wrote:Duty is spinning lack of investment in the future as acceptable collateral damage. Because why should he care about future investment in British industry as long as he get what he wants?

Er...no, I didn't say that. But continue to make things up if you wish.

It's a very strong impression you've given off over a period of time - that you don't give a stuff about anyone who suffers as a result of Brexit.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:To be honest would you want to invest in a country that is tearing itself apart?

Who the heck thought that ripping the country as a whole and bemoaning everything would give us a great starting point for negotiations. Any kid can you tell you that you need to have some position of strength. Absolutely ridiculous and at this point I blame the remainers and the brexiteers for not being able to get together and sort this Poopie out

But not the people who voted for it?

did you purposefully not bold out where it says i blame the remainers AND THE BREXITEERS

The brexiteers refers to the mps in parliament I was talking about the general public.

Oh and as for the voters, as has been said many a time the people were given false information so you can't really blame them for voting for what they thought was right (money back into the NHS being a big one)

It's way past the referendum now anyway, the country should be looking at how to get the best deal for us whether we like it or not. The best stance for negotiations is not shouting 'we're doooooomed' from every corner


Sorry Shah but that's ballcrap and you know it. the statement mentions both brexiteers and remainers, not from where they are or anything else. you just didn't bother to read the rest of it

No, I just thought you were trying to pass the buck for something you voted for. But ok I apologise.

Derbymanc wrote:Oh and as for the voters, as has been said many a time the people were given false information so you can't really blame them for voting for what they thought was right (money back into the NHS being a big one)

It's way past the referendum now anyway, the country should be looking at how to get the best deal for us whether we like it or not. The best stance for negotiations is not shouting 'we're doooooomed' from every corner


Sorry Shah but that's ballcrap and you know it. the statement mentions both brexiteers and remainers, not from where they are or anything else. you just didn't bother to read the rest of it

I blame the Brexit voters and the politicians. The pro-Brexit voters were TOLD that the NHS bus etc was nonsense, but they would rather not listen to "experts".

No Shah, i'm the first one on here to say that the whole thing is a massive convoluted mess and i'd have no issue with a 2nd referendum (purely based on the myths peddaled by Brexit)

I also blame remain because they stuck to the 'your racist' if you vote for this which just peed a lot of people off (especially ooop North).

No passing the buck here, we messed up. Does that mean we should throw our toys out of the pram and ruin negotiations, not in my eyes.

Oh and Navy by the end of the discussions, both sides had muddied the waters so much that people stuck with what they thought for themselves.

As i said though it's immature in my eyes to keep going on about it as that's past we should be trying to move forward but people are just stuck trying to say 'I told you so'

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/02/02/pro-brexit-mp-makes-a-totally-falsea-claim-about-europe-after/

there should be punishments for making blatantly fault statements

Derbymanc wrote:Oh and as for the voters, as has been said many a time the people were given false information so you can't really blame them for voting for what they thought was right (money back into the NHS being a big one)

It's way past the referendum now anyway, the country should be looking at how to get the best deal for us whether we like it or not. The best stance for negotiations is not shouting 'we're doooooomed' from every corner


Sorry Shah but that's ballcrap and you know it. the statement mentions both brexiteers and remainers, not from where they are or anything else. you just didn't bother to read the rest of it

Rubbish. You absolutely can blame them. Every person that voted was a responsible adult that should have researched their choice and freed themselves from any prejudice before making a rational decision. Remainers everywhere were doing their best to debunk the garbage spouted by Farage, Fox, Johnson et al. but the people who voted for Brexit refused to listen.

These people have to take responsibility for their actions and stop blaming the EU for problem that have been caused by the ruling class in the UK. Time has obviously told that this was a terrible decision. Companies are leaving the UK in droves, high-quality jobs will be lost as a result and passing the buck to the EU just won't wash any more.

Blaming the people who were lied to is counter-productive. Its all well and good to say they should have done their research but be realistic about it. Most people in this country couldnt give a toss about politics and get all their information from social media, which is a giant echo chamber of people identical to them.

Blame the people that sold them the bridge, not the people for buying it.

Many of them chose not to see through the rubbish they were being fed because it confirm their prejudices.

Pr4wn wrote:Many of them chose not to see through the rubbish they were being fed because it confirm their prejudices.

Correct, and they deserve to be called out, but there are people who genuinely believed the cowpat they were fed and now dont know what to believe. To ridicule them isnt helping.

All this mess has done is expose the flaw in plebiscite democracy.

Filter out the bigots and remain wins easily. Everyone knows that.

You don't think many people thinking of their wallets and the prosperity of the Country by voting remain could possibly be bigoted then ??..

Maybe being racist was a lesser priority...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You don't think many people thinking of their wallets and the prosperity of the Country by voting remain could possibly be bigoted then ??..

Maybe being racist was a lesser priority...

Eh? Sorry mate, that doesn't make sense.

I expect you don't....I expect it would be a waste of time explaining it..

If there were any bigots and racists who voted Remain then they’re barely a fraction of a percent of the number of bigots and racists who voted Leave.

I don't think everybody that has immigration worries is a bigot...

Easy to generalise....Life isn't black and white..

Bigot

noun
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions


Could be that there are plenty of bigoted remainers.

Who knows? I suspect far more bigots on the Leave side, but it doesn't matter because in our democracy bigots have just as much say as more rational people.

See all of the above as for why we're in the mess we are.

You don't agree with me then your x, y, z

You believe something different than me, then your an idiot.

I said it before and i'll say it again, instead of actually trying to educate people remainers in particular took to insulting and patronizing those that were looking at leave (and still do) and then wonder why noone listens to them.

The mess we're in is a product of both sides arguing and continuing to argue like a pair of 10 year olds instead of actually talking things through.

Thanks to some great people on here (at the time) I was educated a lot more than I had been between all of the debates as instead of flinging insults a couple of posters took the time out to explain certain things for me.

Bigots and racists exist on both sides, it's become the norm to shout it at anyone that wants to discuss immigration instead of actually discussing the issue at hand (another reason brexit won out).

You complain about those that want to discus immigration floating onto the leave side but gave them nowhere to discuss it on the remain side (other than, agree with me or your racist).

Must admit though i do get a big laugh out of the illegral immigrant memes/'news/ across facebook as i don't think most people know what an illegal immigrant is.

There's huge irony in your tarring everyone with the same brush whilst saying "You're all guilty of tarring everyone with the same brush".

E.g. "...gave them nowhere to discuss it on the remain side (other than, agree with me or your racist)." That's nonsense.

Facts are that illegal immigration is bad, but migrants on the whole are net contributers to the economy and do vital work in the health services, agriculture and labour industries. Its also a fact that the EU gave us the powers we needed to control FoM migrants, but the UK chose not to enforce them. Its also true that leaving the EU wont affect immigration from outside the EU. Its also true that its not the EU that blocks us from extraditing people, but the ECHR which is a seperate body altogether independent of the EU.

You can explain all this to a someone til you're blue in the face but if they still refuse to accept it then I'm sorry but I can only draw one conclusion - which is one you can find with great ease with a two minute browse through Facebook - xenophobia or racism.

Read through the thread Julius, or to most of peoples replies to Duty (who's a younger fella than most on here if i remember rightly) any leaver is tarred with the bigot/racist brush.

As I said, there's no room for debate anymore

Leavers = stupid ignoramus
Remainer = enlightened brilliant person how could we not listen to them.

Anyway, that stuffs boring now, it's gone on and on for 13 pages on here, god knows how many before and is played out in the news everyday with everyone attacking each other like a bunch of kids.

Regardless of result why is it that the politicians can't get together and try to negotiate whats best for the country (as a 2nd ref has been taken off the table) and come up with a position of strength?

Samo wrote:Facts are that illegal immigration is bad, but migrants on the whole are net contributers to the economy and do vital work in the health services, agriculture and labour industries.

Not quite that simple, net contributors do include Billionaires who pump a lot of money into the economy.

Derbymanc wrote:Regardless of result why is it that the politicians can't get together and try to negotiate whats best for the country (as a 2nd ref has been taken off the table) and come up with a position of strength?

That's an easy one - because what's best for the country doesn't suit the purposes or beliefs of too many of the politicians.

So are we saying Samo then that ALL migration is good and that there aren't actually any areas anywhere that are suffering from migration? (I could take you round a few areas in manchester that might make you change your mind).

Like the person that shouts all immigration is bad, saying it's all good is a phallacy. Hence the need for healthy discussion on the topic

(depends on what you class as bad illegal immigration, those fleeing from war torn countries etc need somewhere to run too, them people need the chance to argue their case to stay)

If you see the illegal immigration 'news' on social media, you'll see that people do need educating in this and there's no better forum than being able to talk about it. (which has been my point since forever)

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Regardless of result why is it that the politicians can't get together and try to negotiate whats best for the country (as a 2nd ref has been taken off the table) and come up with a position of strength?

That's an easy one - because what's best for the country doesn't suit the purposes or beliefs of too many of the politicians.

Very true that Julius, I think it's on this point that someone could step forward to step into the void and show that we can be led maybe. I dunno i hate the politics side of things and think we've gone way past politicians looking out for our best interests (why call this stupid referendum in the first place).

Hopefully from this mess we'll get someone emerge that could lead us in the future and shows they'll at least look at whats best for everyone else