Brexit

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Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:He doesn't have to 'prove his innocence', that's not how the justice system in this country works.

But it's how the world intends it to work.................... it's probably called neo-socialism - ooh, sex-Y!.  
Anti establishment thought crimes to be punishable by no trial and a bullet down some cavernous prison complex dedicated to 're-education' of political dissidents.

Sex crimes as well? I don't see many people one here leaping to Weinstein's defence.

Yep. I would, until and unless he's convicted. Otherwise it's just hearsay and rumour.

So would Arron Banks

Meaning?

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

I guess if the Falklands happened today we'd just have to get very cross then offer thoughts and prayers. By boat. Do we have a boat?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

There was a really good Twitter thread a few weeks ago written by a New Zealander who was taking to task one of the many commentators who keep saying that we stood alone in the Second World War before the US came in. We didn't stand alone at all - we called on / demanded the help of Empire countries. They had rationing in New Zealand, and elsewhere presumably, because of the war. Well we have none of that available to us now (or next to none of that). Plus, of course, this isn't a war, and we shouldn't be behaving as though it is.

It’s a bit off-topic, but I’m not sure that’s true, particularly up to, and including, Battle of Britain. I’m not sure we had a great deal of Commonwealth help at that point, apart from those already serving in the BEF and garrisoned elsewhere i.e. Singapore, India etc. We had a lot of help from Polish airmen etc early on, but I’m not sure I’d agree with that New Zealander. Then again, I haven’t seen the actual conversation you’re referring to.
Sure, thereafter, we assumed we could simply get those of our Empire to fight, although I would argue that it was almost certainly in their interests to do so anyway.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

I guess if the Falklands happened today we'd just have to get very cross then offer thoughts and prayers. By boat. Do we have a boat?

Well, none that can offer mobile air power and the last of the Vulcan bombers are non-operational now...

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Boris has compared the EU to Hitler in the past!

He has said that both the EU and Hitler (and others) want/wanted a European superstate, albeit they have pursued this through different methods. A perfectly valid point.

Not sure comparing an organisation that hasn't committed genocide to someone who literally committed genocide is a valid point, but we all have our own points of view.

The EU support a European superstate. Hitler supported a European superstate. Napoleon supported a European superstate. This is all true, and that's as far as it goes. Johnson did say that the methods used by the EU were different to that of Hitler and Napoleon.

Wow, that's more insight than he usually has.

Well, as long he added a caveat when comparing the EU to Hitler that is all fine. And people are angry when Tusk said what he did.

El Radar wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

Meaningless to you.

Meaningless to you up to about 3 years ago I am betting.

Just wondering if you have or would one day like children, and if in that case you would vote to make them poorer?

JDizzle wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Boris has compared the EU to Hitler in the past!

He has said that both the EU and Hitler (and others) want/wanted a European superstate, albeit they have pursued this through different methods. A perfectly valid point.

Not sure comparing an organisation that hasn't committed genocide to someone who literally committed genocide is a valid point, but we all have our own points of view.

The EU support a European superstate. Hitler supported a European superstate. Napoleon supported a European superstate. This is all true, and that's as far as it goes. Johnson did say that the methods used by the EU were different to that of Hitler and Napoleon.

Wow, that's more insight than he usually has.

Well, as long he added a caveat when comparing the EU to Hitler that is all fine. And people are angry when Tusk said what he did.

Everyone should be angry at the politicians he aimed his comments at. What's worse - politicians who promoted Brexit with no idea how to do it, or publicly slamming said politicians. Even rational Brexiteer voters must acknowledge that it's the former.

Pr4wn wrote:Also, you don't think that referring those that voted for Brexit as having nothing to lose is a little..... belittling?

Said right at the start it is driven by those who can afford it (or make money out of it) and those that have been convinced that they have nothing to lose.

The greatest tragedy is that the people in the latter category are generally in that position because of the actions of our own government, who have managed to deflect the blame onto the EU.

One can only hope that instead of a special place in hell the politicians responsible for this mess end up in a special part of the criminal justice system for the negligence and dereliction of duty that lead us down this path.

lostinwales wrote:

El Radar wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

Meaningless to you.

Meaningless to you up to about 3 years ago I am betting.

Just wondering if you have or would one day like children, and if in that case you would vote to make them poorer?

It's been important to me since 1992 in fact but great generalisation.

lostinwales wrote:

El Radar wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

Meaningless to you.

Meaningless to you up to about 3 years ago I am betting.

Just wondering if you have or would one day like children, and if in that case you would vote to make them poorer?

Shine your shoes guvnor?
Been getting poorer for nearly 40 years and we're already skint...

"Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck! Liam."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8688470.stm

Whatever one thinks of the biased media in the US at least they are holding the Govt to account..

Only seems to be the Opposition's Brexit position...Anti Semitism problems.. Membership numbers....Profitability....Poll numbers that are of interest to the broadcasters and print media here..

With public transport....The Health service on their backsides...Evictions and Poverty at record levels and record Homeless people dying on the Streets..

It is very unhealthy....If you won't hold power to account then where will it end ???

Britain has a media that would embarrass a Banana republic..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whatever one thinks of the biased media in the US at least they are holding the Govt to account..

Only seems to be the Opposition's Brexit position...Anti Semitism problems.. Membership numbers....Profitability....Poll numbers that are of interest to the broadcasters and print media here..

With public transport....The Health service on their backsides...Evictions and Poverty at record levels and record Homeless people dying on the Streets..

It is very unhealthy....If you won't hold power to account then where will it end ???

Britain has a media that would embarrass a Banana republic..

Oh of course we never hear about that stuff on a non stop daily basis.

I'm afraid we don't hear enough....

14m in Poverty...In work Poverty at record levels...Kids in pain seeing operations cancelled at record levels...Islamophobia the worst it has ever been...Polls showing Anti Semitism is worse in the Tory Party.....Legal aid being denied to working class people...Tribunals for wrongful dismissal being restricted...Zero hour contracts rising all the time..

But to look at the media....

Labour are in charge of Brexit..
Labour is the only Party that hates Jews
Islamophobia doesn't exist..
Foodbanks don't exist..

Now whatever you think of Corbyn or Labour..

It Isn't healthy..

This Country is going to S**T....and the Opposition are being held to account.

Well if a poll says it...

You are welcome to disagree with my opinion buddy.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whatever one thinks of the biased media in the US at least they are holding the Govt to account..

Only seems to be the Opposition's Brexit position...Anti Semitism problems.. Membership numbers....Profitability....Poll numbers that are of interest to the broadcasters and print media here..

With public transport....The Health service on their backsides...Evictions and Poverty at record levels and record Homeless people dying on the Streets..

It is very unhealthy....If you won't hold power to account then where will it end ???

Britain has a media that would embarrass a Banana republic..

Yes, there’s a lot about Opposition issues (probably because they’re managing to screw up opposing the open goal that’s the current UK Government), but to suggest there’s been nothing examining the tribulations of our wonderful Government is a bit much.

You’re right about transprt, health etc not commanding much column inches just now, and it should do - but what do you expect? If Brexit (and the car crash mismanagement of it) is the biggest thing this Country’s faced for a generation or two, of course the various media are going to expend masses of column inches on it.

Hard to be an effective opposition when none of the media is interested in airing your views..

Guest lists on the news or Political shows generally include anti Corbyn mps like Chuku Ummuna as the only Labour rep...Out of the 9 major print retailers only the Mirror is sympathetic..

Now for sure if Labour had a Centrist things would change...BUT it Isn't a good thing for the Govt in a suffering Country to be given this much of a free ride..

Holding Power to account is essential in any healthy democracy..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm afraid we don't hear enough....

14m in Poverty...In work Poverty at record levels...Kids in pain seeing operations cancelled at record levels...Islamophobia the worst it has ever been...Polls showing Anti Semitism is worse in the Tory Party.....Legal aid being denied to working class people...Tribunals for wrongful dismissal being restricted...Zero hour contracts rising all the time..

But to look at the media....

Labour are in charge of Brexit..
Labour is the only Party that hates Jews
Islamophobia doesn't exist..
Foodbanks don't exist..

Now whatever you think of Corbyn or Labour..

It Isn't healthy..

This Country is going to S**T....and the Opposition are being held to account.

You’re hyperventilating a bit there, Truss. No-one says Labour are in charge of Brexit. No-one says Labour are the only ones who might have issues with Jews, but you have to admit they’re handling it badly. No-one says Islamophobia doesn’t exist. No-one says foodbanks don’t exist. Dare I suggest you see what you want to see?

This country has been going to schidt for decades. Parallels with Canute seem apposite to me. It needn’t be that way (or, it needn’t have been; too late now maybe), but we are where we are.
Bankrupt (and then some) after WWII, Labour movement in ascendency after WWII, Union absurdities through 70s, the idea that cr@p product is OK if it’s cheap (or not even that in some cases), loss of all major industry (pretty much), the insanity of the ‘housing market’ as something that can substitute for a real production economy, thinking multi-national companies making £billions through UK business transactions (take your pick of that crowd) and yet are paying a pittance in tax to UK Exchequer is a viable situation, a Country that often humiliates intelligence and lauds idiots (see Jade Goody, Joey Essex et al) etc etc.
Before you pull me up on it, no, I’m not trying to lay all the blame with Labour etc - they’ve been a force for good in many areas.

I don’t know what the answers are, anymore than the next person. What’s for sure though is that for too long politicians treat politics as some board game, with no apparent realisation of real-world effects. I don’t get the feeling that much of what they do is evidence-based either; more to do with dogmas. Do any of them really have a clue about (or really listen to those that do) macro-economics? Do any of them have the first clue about mass behaviours in response to what they do?
Maybe it’s a readjustment after the end of Empire? Bit like I guess Spain have probably had to come to terms with and France have yet to acknowledge. We’re too used to things that are either too expensive for us and/or we’re actually just a bit schidt really.

I need a drink. Last one out, switch off the lights...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hard to be an effective opposition when none of the media is interested in airing your views..

Guest lists on the news or Political shows generally include anti Corbyn mps like Chuku Ummuna as the only Labour rep...Out of the 9 major print retailers only the Mirror is sympathetic..

Now for sure if Labour had a Centrist things would change...BUT it Isn't a good thing for the Govt in a suffering Country to be given this much of a free ride..

Holding Power to account is essential in any healthy democracy..

Yeah, I agree with you there. UK media has always had a right-of-centre bias in terms of volume. I can only recall The Mirror and The Guardian as left-of-centre newspapers and neither of those are really left wing. The rest are all centre or, mainly, right-of-centre.
The BBC are scared of criticising any Government too badly now. They were emasculated by threats to the License Fee etc by previous Governments.

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm afraid we don't hear enough....

14m in Poverty...In work Poverty at record levels...Kids in pain seeing operations cancelled at record levels...Islamophobia the worst it has ever been...Polls showing Anti Semitism is worse in the Tory Party.....Legal aid being denied to working class people...Tribunals for wrongful dismissal being restricted...Zero hour contracts rising all the time..

But to look at the media....

Labour are in charge of Brexit..
Labour is the only Party that hates Jews
Islamophobia doesn't exist..
Foodbanks don't exist..

Now whatever you think of Corbyn or Labour..

It Isn't healthy..

This Country is going to S**T....and the Opposition are being held to account.

You’re hyperventilating a bit there, Truss. No-one says Labour are in charge of Brexit. No-one says Labour are the only ones who might have issues with Jews, but you have to admit they’re handling it badly. No-one says Islamophobia doesn’t exist. No-one says foodbanks don’t exist. Dare I suggest you see what you want to see?

This country has been going to schidt for decades. Parallels with Canute seem apposite to me. It needn’t be that way (or, it needn’t have been; too late now maybe), but we are where we are.
Bankrupt (and then some) after WWII, Labour movement in ascendency after WWII, Union absurdities through 70s, the idea that cr@p product is OK if it’s cheap (or not even that in some cases), loss of all major industry (pretty much), the insanity of the ‘housing market’ as something that can substitute for a real production economy, thinking multi-national companies making £billions through UK business transactions (take your pick of that crowd) and yet are paying a pittance in tax to UK Exchequer is a viable situation, a Country that often humiliates intelligence and lauds idiots (see Jade Goody, Joey Essex et al) etc etc.
Before you pull me up on it, no, I’m not trying to lay all the blame with Labour etc - they’ve been a force for good in many areas.

I don’t know what the answers are, anymore than the next person. What’s for sure though is that for too long politicians treat politics as some board game, with no apparent realisation of real-world effects. I don’t get the feeling that much of what they do is evidence-based either; more to do with dogmas. Do any of them really have a clue about (or really listen to those that do) macro-economics? Do any of them have the first clue about mass behaviours in response to what they do?
Maybe it’s a readjustment after the end of Empire? Bit like I guess Spain have probably had to come to terms with and France have yet to acknowledge. We’re too used to things that are either too expensive for us and/or we’re actually just a bit schidt really.

I need a drink. Last one out, switch off the lights...

There is a lot wrong with the Labour Party and it needs pointing out...But not at the expense of free riding this shambolic Govt..

The constant emphasis on the Opposition's Brexit position is irritating considering we were told this is the best Brexit deal available after 2 years negotiating by May and now she is negotiating again with a month to go.

No fan of Corbyn myself but fear of him shouldn't lead to highlighting the awful inadequacy of this Govt..

Interesting read...Navy.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There is a lot wrong with the Labour Party and it needs pointing out...But not at the expense of free riding this shambolic Govt..

The constant emphasis on the Opposition's Brexit position is irritating considering we were told this is the best Brexit deal available after 2 years negotiating by May and now she is negotiating again with a month to go.

No fan of Corbyn myself but fear of him shouldn't lead to highlighting the awful inadequacy of this Govt..

Agreed. Journalistic standards don’t seem to amount to as much as they should either.

I find the whole direction of travel in the UK depressing. Must be some good stuff out there, somewhere, and the grass isn’t always greener elsewhere. When it comes down to it, there aren’t too many other countries that I’d fancy would actually be better. Scandanavia? Canada? New Zealand?

This gave me a laugh. Kind up sums it all up nicely, with respect to how well HMG etc have handled it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-donald-tusk-theresa-may-hell-eu-boris-johnson-jeremy-hunt-the-sun-stalin-a8767871.html

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hard to be an effective opposition when none of the media is interested in airing your views..

Guest lists on the news or Political shows generally include anti Corbyn mps like Chuku Ummuna as the only Labour rep...Out of the 9 major print retailers only the Mirror is sympathetic..

Now for sure if Labour had a Centrist things would change...BUT it Isn't a good thing for the Govt in a suffering Country to be given this much of a free ride..

Holding Power to account is essential in any healthy democracy..

Well Corbyn is more or less supporting the Conservative line. One of those recent 'accidental' discoveries shows him saying some bad things about the EU a few years back. He's not following the agreed party line at all.

I am truly peed off with the excuse you are pulling because it very much is the standard approach to defending Labour's lack of action on the matter - as in it is all someone else's fault. Whose fault is it that the 6 preconditions have been dropped?

Tusk has said that part of the problem is that both main party leaders support Brexit.

The crapstorm we have is all on the Tories, but the Labour leadership have done everything they can to not do anything about it, barring the odd token effort in an attempt to keep remainers on board. In theory they are the opposition. They should be treating this situation in a rigorous manner to hold the Cons to account when they get things wrong. But they don't, because, you know, buses 'n' stuff.

I am very skeptical about conspiracy theories and the like, but it does seem very much like Corbyn wants Brexit, wants it to be all the Tories fault so that he has a chance of being PM. As such his desire to push party politics over the health of this country is along the same lines as the tory fwits who are driving this.

The crapstorm Isn't all on the Tories.....Because the MSM is too busy pointing out Labour divisions on Brexit because they are scared of a Left wing Government..

Just last week she was widely praised for winning a vote against her own deal she spent two years negotiating..

Labour have always accepted the result of the referendum but want a permanent Custom's Union..

How is that more or less supporting the Tory line you tell me ??...

Last I looked May's deal lost by the biggest margin ever....

She is getting away with murder because no one is holding her Govt to account.

I would respect Corbyn a hell of a lot more if he just came out and admitted he supports Brexit. But he wont. Because for all he’s praised as being a man of principles thats not enough when you lead the party, and he’s finding that out the hard way.

I'm the opposite to you Sami. I thought he was a stupid self serving c*nt at the start of the brexit process but slowly he's been doing pretty good although not as vehemently as I would like. He's essentially got to Norway/Swiss type deal which may can't accept without freedom of movement. He hasn't even mentioned it in his letter so this is a blame shifting exercise which will probably lead to a general election and or a second referendum. Unless may sacrifices the Tory party of course. Then we are f*cked but labour doesn't have the numbers to do it any other way.

navyblueshorts wrote:This gave me a laugh. Kind up sums it all up nicely, with respect to how well HMG etc have handled it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-donald-tusk-theresa-may-hell-eu-boris-johnson-jeremy-hunt-the-sun-stalin-a8767871.html

I like Mark Steel. Well worth a read.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm afraid we don't hear enough....

14m in Poverty...In work Poverty at record levels...Kids in pain seeing operations cancelled at record levels...Islamophobia the worst it has ever been...Polls showing Anti Semitism is worse in the Tory Party.....Legal aid being denied to working class people...Tribunals for wrongful dismissal being restricted...Zero hour contracts rising all the time..

But to look at the media....

Labour are in charge of Brexit..
Labour is the only Party that hates Jews
Islamophobia doesn't exist..
Foodbanks don't exist..

Now whatever you think of Corbyn or Labour..

It Isn't healthy..

This Country is going to S**T....and the Opposition are being held to account.

Gotta pay those hospital PFI bills first though, I guess.

Labour's infighting...(Anti Semitism's turn again this week but really it's right wing Labour Mps not going gently into the good night...)..Is only helping give May cover to keep delaying the next MV....Rumour has it that it will be mid March now which gives the UK a black and white choice...

May's crap deal.....Or.....No deal....

Farage's new Party being green lighted will scare the Tories and probably rule out A50 extention or accepting Labour's CU compromise...

Sure I can understand Centrists being miffed in the Labour Party....But now isn't the time to be sheltering the Tories on Brexit..

I'm already thinking about what job to do in the future. Right now most Field Arch units are desperate for staff and employees can pick and choose their jobs. Once Brexit kicks in commercial Archaeology will probably go to sh*t and I think most of us a faced with the prospect of being redundant along with other construction jobs

Now that May continues to rule out a no Deal Brexit and has dismissed Corbyn's Customs Union proposal Labour really do have to push for the 2nd referendum as all sensible alternatives have been ruled out by Number 10.

Got to admit that March 29th is now looking ominously close, and the continued threat of a No Deal Brexit is having a disastrous economic effect. Yes, May is finiding it's an effective bargaining chip - 'back my deal or its no deal' but this is at a huge cost and is downright irresponsible.

The ineptitude was entertaining in a farcical kind of way but now the consequences are just getting that bit real and scary now.

I also think there will be a huge democratic deficit felt amongst our younger voters and EU citizens in the country if we allow our politicians to get away with this without putting it to a 2nd referendum.

There isn't a majority for a second referendum...Most of Labour's target seats are in leave areas...

With respect this is the problem..."What Labour should do.."

Con + DUP.. = 328
Opposition...= 315

May needs to find a solution.. Labour has offered one..

But instead it is what Labour should do..Labour aren't in power.

MrInvisible wrote:Now that May continues to rule out a no Deal Brexit and has dismissed Corbyn's Customs Union proposal Labour really do have to push for the 2nd referendum as all sensible alternatives have been ruled out by Number 10.

Got to admit that March 29th is now looking ominously close, and the continued threat of a No Deal Brexit is having a disastrous economic effect.  Yes, May is finiding it's an effective bargaining chip - 'back my deal or its no deal' but this is at a huge cost and is downright irresponsible.

The ineptitude was entertaining in a farcical kind of way but now the consequences are just getting that bit real and scary now.

I also think there will be a huge democratic deficit felt amongst our younger voters and EU citizens in the country if we allow our politicians to get away with this without putting it to a 2nd referendum.

I agree with all but the last sentence. It’s very scary, but they don’t appear to care very much and/or will make money out of it.

There’ll be no ‘democrattic deficit’ if there’s no second referendum. There will be one if there is. Much as I hate to admit it, the vote was in or out, and we voted out. I could entertain a referendum on May’s deal or no deal, but anything else is not enacting the outcome of the first one.

Stupid thing is, the first was only advisory, but they rushed to trigger A50 and pass legislation that means we’re done for now I think. If they don’t want no deal, they need to request an A50 extension and hope the E27 countries all agree we can have one.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There isn't a majority for a second referendum...Most of Labour's target seats are in leave areas...

With respect this is the problem..."What Labour should do.."

Con + DUP..  = 328
Opposition...= 315

May needs to find a solution.. Labour has offered one..

But instead it is what Labour should do..Labour aren't in power.

With respect Truss, and we’ve been here before, what Labour has offered isn’t deemed to be remotely acceptable; bit like their six tests. I suspect Corbyn knows this to be the case.

Blair said yesterday that a second referendum is only viable after we leave...

It is..If we have one before 17m people will feel disenfranchised..

Get the softest Brexit and take it from there...

But May Won't take it...She is putting her interest ahead of the Country...

Focusing on Labour is Bollox.

I think it’s legitimate to shoot Labour down when they’re trying to make political capital out of their ‘offers’, knowing full well that they’re non-starters. They’re at least as guilty of playing games and as irresponsible as the Tories here.

That said, you’re absolutely right that it’s HMG that have to sort this out and they should be pilloried for the clueless way they’re going about it.

What is May meant to do? Labour’s ‘offer’ is basically remaining in the EU in all but name; that’ll never wash. I’m not sure there’s an easy solution. A lot of people are going to get p!ssed off, no matter what. If she quits, we get a real Brexiteer loon as PM and Corbyn doesn’t appear to be able to win a GE, even if we had any time to hold one.

Nothing Labour appears able to suggest is acceptable to the Tories, and vice versa. There’s no way out (unless someone has an Irish ‘backstop’ brainwave, which doesn’t appear likely) and the clock’s ticking. They need an A50 extension, if nothing else, or we need to find that paddle tout de suite.

The problem with having another referendum once we leave is we’ll never rejoin with a better deal than we have just now. We’ll almost certainly have to join both Schengen and the Euro, and have a massive reduction in say in parliament.

It needs to go back to the people before we leave. Theres already evidence of referendums being rerun after a period of time, look at Irelands two referendums on the Lisbon treaty. The second vote delievered a different result and no one was shouting about betraying democracy. Frankly, this notion that more democracy is a betrayal of democracy is ludicrous, and if Leave voters cant handle the fact that they might lose a second vote and threaten violence then they have to drop the pretence that they’re democrats.

There may be a vote on rejoining in the future, but there won't be another referendum in 2019. The failed people's vote campaign has packed up and gone home. The democratic decision of 2016 will be implemented, not ignored as the anti-democrats wish.

The only question left is...deal or no deal? We'll probably know the answer by the end of this month. There may be an extension request put in, but this appears increasingly less likely by the day.

Duty281 wrote:There may be a vote on rejoining in the future, but there won't be another referendum in 2019. The failed people's vote campaign has packed up and gone home. The democratic decision of 2016 will be implemented, not ignored as the anti-democrats wish.

Anti-democrats? Spoken like someone who fears democracy.

Typical - business leaders who know less about their own businesses than the average Leave voter, spouting nonsense. Project Fear.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47200688

No deal Brexit then general election I hope Jeremy Corbyn for pm

Samo wrote:The problem with having another referendum once we leave is we’ll never rejoin with a better deal than we have just now. We’ll almost certainly have to join both Schengen and the Euro, and have a massive reduction in say in parliament.

It needs to go back to the people before we leave. Theres already evidence of referendums being rerun after a period of time, look at Irelands two referendums on the Lisbon treaty. The second vote delievered a different result and no one was shouting about betraying democracy. Frankly, this notion that more democracy is a betrayal of democracy is ludicrous, and if Leave voters cant handle the fact that they might lose a second vote and threaten violence then they have to drop the pretence that they’re democrats.

Yep. If we ever have another cchance to join, it’ll be only if we sign up as fully-fledged members. No rebates, the Euro, Schengen - the works.

You must have missed the furore over the Irish Lisbon re-run then. It is not ludicrous to suggest that another referendum pre-Brexit is a betrayal of of democracy. It was a very simple, clear question that we were balloted on. The fact people clearly didn’t “get it” is, frankly, tough. I voted remain - we lost. Now the country has to suck it up.

pauline wrote:No deal Brexit then general election I hope Jeremy Corbyn for pm

Followed by Collectivisation no doubt? Members of Momentum can play the roles of NKVD and Political Commisars.

Fortunately, I don’t think Corbyn has a chance of becoming PM and I suspect he’s harming Labour longer-term. Those floating voters he needs to form a majority Government will be increasingly sceptical of trusting Labour and he’s making no effort to interest them.

Until we know what the economic outlook is at the time of an Election is....Bit early to be saying Corbyn can't win..

Not sure why if the Tories couldn't keep their majority when they were 24 points ahead on Yougov why they would want an Election 5 points ahead..

My guess is both the current leaders will be gone by the next GE and that Labour will probably win a majority....Who ever they choose..

Because I believe Governments get voted out and not in and people are pretty sick of this one..

Seriously, however things are spun agent Corbyn won't get elected unless things change massively.

If they put a tub of lard into that poll for who would make best PM, it would probably get higher ratings than both main party leaders, and the worse PM in history still sits way ahead of 'Tory asset no.1'

It is scary times though, and the immediate future has seldom seemed so uncertain. The conservative party is close to collapse, and unless Labour gets rid of JC and his inner circle you could see the same happen to them. I don't actually think that will happen in a hurry, in which case Labour will shrink quickly. There is some evidence that after real highs in membership over the last couple of years that a lot of people are leaving Labour. In contrast Conservative party members tend to be leaving life at the same time.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Samo wrote:The problem with having another referendum once we leave is we’ll never rejoin with a better deal than we have just now. We’ll almost certainly have to join both Schengen and the Euro, and have a massive reduction in say in parliament.

It needs to go back to the people before we leave. Theres already evidence of referendums being rerun after a period of time, look at Irelands two referendums on the Lisbon treaty. The second vote delievered a different result and no one was shouting about betraying democracy. Frankly, this notion that more democracy is a betrayal of democracy is ludicrous, and if Leave voters cant handle the fact that they might lose a second vote and threaten violence then they have to drop the pretence that they’re democrats.

Yep. If we ever have another cchance to join, it’ll be only if we sign up as fully-fledged members. No rebates, the Euro, Schengen - the works.

You must have missed the furore over the Irish Lisbon re-run then. It is not ludicrous to suggest that another referendum pre-Brexit is a betrayal of of democracy. It was a very simple, clear question that we were balloted on. The fact people clearly didn’t “get it” is, frankly, tough. I voted remain - we lost. Now the country has to suck it up.

I can't get over the mindless stupidity of your argument.

"Would you like to jump out of a plane, sir?"
Thinks to himself, have always wanted to give skydiving a go - "Go on, yeah"
"Just board this plane sir"
"What about training?"
"You'll be fine, sir.  This will be the easiest thing you've ever done and we can sort out training once you're on the plane"
"Ok"
Plane takes off and rises to 13,000 feet.
"Sir, it's time for you to jump"  
"What about the training?"
"It's really easy, you can work it out during the fall"
"I'm not sure about this.  Where's my parachute?"
"No one said anything about a parachute, sir"
"I thought there would be a parachute.  I don't want to do this"
"We have to take your original answer, sir"
"But..."
"Just f**king jump"
Man is pushed out of plane to his screaming death.

May has said she won't fight another Election and best PM polls are misleading....Because only one of them has done the job....

Cameron regularly placed behind Brown...

But I agree Corbyn is a weak link......However with 500,000 members...Labour has greater reach and we can factor in Tactical voting too....I imagine some Greens will vote Labour if they can get a Tory out..

Like I said too early to know what will happen...But I'd be surprised if Corbyn wins...Then again I was surprised last time.

Never thought a misogynistic...racist....baby like Trump would win....Elections are funny things...........All about getting out the vote and feet on the ground are a big advantage.

superflyweight wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Samo wrote:The problem with having another referendum once we leave is we’ll never rejoin with a better deal than we have just now. We’ll almost certainly have to join both Schengen and the Euro, and have a massive reduction in say in parliament.

It needs to go back to the people before we leave. Theres already evidence of referendums being rerun after a period of time, look at Irelands two referendums on the Lisbon treaty. The second vote delievered a different result and no one was shouting about betraying democracy. Frankly, this notion that more democracy is a betrayal of democracy is ludicrous, and if Leave voters cant handle the fact that they might lose a second vote and threaten violence then they have to drop the pretence that they’re democrats.

Yep. If we ever have another cchance to join, it’ll be only if we sign up as fully-fledged members. No rebates, the Euro, Schengen - the works.

You must have missed the furore over the Irish Lisbon re-run then. It is not ludicrous to suggest that another referendum pre-Brexit is a betrayal of of democracy. It was a very simple, clear question that we were balloted on. The fact people clearly didn’t “get it” is, frankly, tough. I voted remain - we lost. Now the country has to suck it up.

I can't get over the mindless stupidity of your argument.

"Would you like to jump out of a plane, sir?"
Thinks to himself, have always wanted to give skydiving a go - "Go on, yeah"
"Just board this plane sir"
"What about training?"
"You'll be fine, sir.  This will be the easiest thing you've ever done and we can sort out training once you're on the plane"
"Ok"
Plane takes off and rises to 13,000 feet.
"Sir, it's time for you to jump"  
"What about the training?"
"It's really easy, you can work it out during the fall"
"I'm not sure about this.  Where's my parachute?"
"No one said anything about a parachute, sir"
"I thought there would be a parachute.  I don't want to do this"
"We have to take your original answer, sir"
"But..."
"Just f**king jump"
Man is pushed out of plane to his screaming death.

I suppose that’s an attempt at wit by analogy? Passed me by I’m afraid.

What is it that you don’t get about the referendum outcome?
By all means, let’s have some sort of f**kwit referendum after Brexit asking if we’re back in.

The Tories could do what so many (incorrectly, IMO) want and have some childish second referendum without actually enacting the outcome of the first one. Of course it’s possible, but don’t try to brush it off as if there’s no political (and possibly civil) blowback should they do so. They appear to feel that doing so is less compelling than you do. Clearly I’m an utter moron. So sorry, I should have seen that.

It's an attempt at satire.  Piss poor or otherwise, let's call it by its correct name.  

You seem to have arrived at the conclusion that there's only a binary choice - (i) have another referendum, or (ii) leave as planned.  However there are a multitude of choices available to the government but we're locked into a state of collective stupidity and those options are not being explored properly and explained to the public.    

It's not the responsibility of the government to do what the electorate wants, its responsibility is to do what it right for the country.  If Brexit on the terms available to us is not right for the country then the government should take the most appropriate steps using its informed position to make the right decision.  If the electorate doesn't like that decision then it can change the government for another one at the next general election.

superflyweight wrote:It's an attempt at satire.  Piss poor or otherwise, let's call it by its correct name.  

You seem to have arrived at the conclusion that there's only a binary choice - (i) have another referendum, or (ii) leave as planned.  However there are a multitude of choices available to the government but we're locked into a state of collective stupidity and those options are not being explored properly and explained to the public.    

It's not the responsibility of the government to do what the electorate wants, its responsibility is to do what it right for the country.  If Brexit on the terms available to us is not right for the country then the government should take the most appropriate steps using its informed position to make the right decision.  If the electorate doesn't like that decision then it can change the government for another one at the next general election.

Satire/wit; whatever. Both cover it.

Yes, I can easily agree with the rest. There are potential political problems for HMG if they’re seen to implement something that most of the ‘leave’ voters don’t accept as an actual Brexit. You might correctly say that doing so is less harmful, but I think it’s a bit naive to think that May et al. aren’t concerned about the implications of something like that.
We can change this Government at the next GE, but it might be a bit late re. Brexit consequences if we don’t like them. Your latter paragraph could also cover the fact that the damned referendum should never have happened in the first place, as we elect these chumps to make decisions in the best interests of us. Shame they too often seem to get that wrong though...