Brexit

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Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:He doesn't have to 'prove his innocence', that's not how the justice system in this country works.

But it's how the world intends it to work.................... it's probably called neo-socialism - ooh, sex-Y!.  
Anti establishment thought crimes to be punishable by no trial and a bullet down some cavernous prison complex dedicated to 're-education' of political dissidents.

Sex crimes as well? I don't see many people one here leaping to Weinstein's defence.

Yep. I would, until and unless he's convicted. Otherwise it's just hearsay and rumour.

So would Arron Banks

Meaning?

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Boris has compared the EU to Hitler in the past!

He has said that both the EU and Hitler (and others) want/wanted a European superstate, albeit they have pursued this through different methods. A perfectly valid point.

Not sure comparing an organisation that hasn't committed genocide to someone who literally committed genocide is a valid point, but we all have our own points of view.

May is cancelling MV3....That won't go down well with Tory remainers as we get closer to March 29..

More can kicking and running down the clock....

Unless she pushes back A50 which will pee off Brexiteers.

Groundhog day....

El Radar wrote:Pretty apt comparison in fairness.

Please explain how this is a fair comparison. We'd love to hear it.

Pr4wn wrote:

El Radar wrote:Pretty apt comparison in fairness.

Please explain how this is a fair comparison. We'd love to hear it.

I suppose its a fair comparison if you write off democracy and genocide as “different methods”.

It's just lazy, sensationalist garbage.

"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods,"

"But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe.

"There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void."

That is the actual quote, there is nothing sensationalist about it, it just happens to contain the word Hitler and EU, it is also 100% correct.

How does that make the EU a fair comparison with Hitler who literally killed millions of innocent people?

I don't know if you're a troll or just a bit simple but comparisons like this are dangerous.

You're confusing comparing the EU and Hitler with comparing the ultimate goal, the method has not been mentioned, had you read the full quote before?

The ultimate goal of Hitler was the aryan race and the eradication of the Jews, no?

I'm not sure the EU's recent immigration policy is conducive to either.

I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

lostinwales wrote:I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

Meaningless to you.

El Radar wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I have never ceased to be stunned how much meaningless and nebulous concepts such as sovereignty and EU super state have come to dominate an argument about how we are about to make our lives and the lives of our children harder and poorer

Meaningless to you.

Eh?

Meaningless to anyone that doesnt have an inferiority complex over the fact that England doesnt rule the world anymore.

So you decide what people can and cannot think, your opinion means more than anybody elses?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he does, then I don't know what he's playing at.

I’ll hazard a guess.

A warning shot to certain politicians that, actually, the EU really doesn’t feel it needs the UK to survive. It would rather we stayed, but if we think they value our business over the integrity of the EU as, for example, a peace project, we’ve got anothing think coming.

El Radar wrote:So you decide what people can and cannot think, your opinion means more than anybody elses?

You can think what you like, but don’t expect people to agree with you, or resist calling you out over your opinions, when they think they’re hot air.

Equating the, debatable, aims of the EU in the creation of an integrated single state with Hitler (especially) or Napolean etc is specious, at best.

El Radar wrote:So you decide what people can and cannot think, your opinion means more than anybody elses?

Where did that come from? No-one said you can't value ideas that other people think are meaningless, or can't have an inferiority complex. Feel free.

navyblueshorts wrote:

El Radar wrote:So you decide what people can and cannot think, your opinion means more than anybody elses?

You can think what you like, but don’t expect people to agree with you, or resist calling you out over your opinions, when they think they’re hot air.

Equating the, debatable, aims of the EU in the creation of an integrated single state with Hitler (especially) or Napolean etc is specious, at best.

That works both ways, some people value so called sovereignty over money whilst others value money over all.

The biggest issue is trying to explain to someone with nothing already that they're better off in the EU, if someone has literally nothing to lose the economic argument doesn't really matter.

El Radar wrote:"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods,"

"But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe.

"There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void."

That is the actual quote, there is nothing sensationalist about it, it just happens to contain the word Hitler and EU, it is also 100% correct.

Sorry but no.

Napoleon and Hitler took land by conquering by force (haven't seen the EU doing that). Napoleon and Hitler did not give up any land gained in their conquests until forcibly removed. That isn't the case here with the EU as the UK is being allowed to leave the EU.

So we should tell them “Yeah you’ve got nothing now, and wont have anything once we leave the EU but heres all the sovereignty you can heat your house with and feed you family with”?

Nevermind the fact we were always a sovereign nation.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

El Radar wrote:"Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods,"

"But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe.

"There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void."

That is the actual quote, there is nothing sensationalist about it, it just happens to contain the word Hitler and EU, it is also 100% correct.

Sorry but no.

Napoleon and Hitler took land by conquering by force (haven't seen the EU doing that). Napoleon and Hitler did not give up any land gained in their conquests until forcibly removed. That isn't the case here with the EU as the UK is being allowed to leave the EU.

Samo wrote:So we should tell them “Yeah you’ve got nothing now, and wont have anything once we leave the EU but heres all the sovereignty you can heat your house with and feed you family with”?

Nevermind the fact we were always a sovereign nation.

That's a nothing reply, the Brexit debate is always arguing the wrong points to the wrong people and when you have opposing sides with different priorities it becomes a futile exercise.

El Radar wrote:

Samo wrote:So we should tell them “Yeah you’ve got nothing now, and wont have anything once we leave the EU but heres all the sovereignty you can heat your house with and feed you family with”?

Nevermind the fact we were always a sovereign nation.

That's a nothing reply, the Brexit debate is always arguing the wrong points to the wrong people and when you have opposing sides with different priorities it becomes a futile exercise.

Well what do you tell the man who has nothing? Why should he vote for Brexit if not money or sovereignty?

That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Quite easily actually, its all about what tone and language you use. But that isnt what I asked you. I asked why should a person who has nothing vote for Brexit? What can Brexit offer them if not money or sovereignty?

The real clear fact about Brexit is that those pushing for it never gave it serious thought. By my guess the chief peddlers were English Tories who had not stopped to think about anything outside of their own bubble. It is staggering that nobody thought about the border issue in Ireland. And since then their whole Brexit was complicated when they had to get the DUP to prop them up who had a strong interest in the Irish border issue. Hence we are where we are - weeks away from No Deal Brexit and no solution to the Irish border and seemingly not even a semblance of a plan that is workable.

Samo wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Quite easily actually, its all about what tone and language you use. But that isnt what I asked you. I asked why should a person who has nothing vote for Brexit? What can Brexit offer them if not money or sovereignty?

It offers them an alternative, they have nothing to lose so why not. I'm assuming it's not at all easy to do considering nobody has altered their stance on the subject and that attitude in itself is belittling.

El Radar wrote:

Samo wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Quite easily actually, its all about what tone and language you use. But that isnt what I asked you. I asked why should a person who has nothing vote for Brexit? What can Brexit offer them if not money or sovereignty?

It offers them an alternative, they have nothing to lose so why not. I'm assuming it's not at all easy to do considering nobody has altered their stance on the subject and that attitude in itself is belittling.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he does, then I don't know what he's playing at.

I’ll hazard a guess.

A warning shot to certain politicians that, actually, the EU really doesn’t feel it needs the UK to survive. It would rather we stayed, but if we think they value our business over the integrity of the EU as, for example, a peace project, we’ve got anothing think coming.

Yeah I've thought more about this, and I think the shock and outrage of some Brexiters - even though they're not the people Tusk is referring to - comes from the fact that they're used to other leaders being obsequious. There does still seem to be an expectation that other leaders should behave a certain way towards the UK simply because it's the UK.

I still think he should have known his comments would be wilfully misinterpreted, but it could well be that he's genuinely tired of the whole thing and doesn't much care what any Brexiters, or even Leave voters, think about him.

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

How about using the full quote? “Theres a special place in hell for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely”

CaledonianCraig wrote:The real clear fact about Brexit is that those pushing for it never gave it serious thought. By my guess the chief peddlers were English Tories who had not stopped to think about anything outside of their own bubble. It is staggering that nobody thought about the border issue in Ireland. And since then their whole Brexit was complicated when they had to get the DUP to prop them up who had a strong interest in the Irish border issue. Hence we are where we are - weeks away from No Deal Brexit and no solution to the Irish border and seemingly not even a semblance of a plan that is workable.

Very much agree with this.

Also, you don't think that referring those that voted for Brexit as having nothing to lose is a little..... belittling?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

Oh yes that's exactly what he said, so you're saying you as remain voter can misrepresent Johnson words but a Brexit voter shouldn't misrepresent Tusk? We'll ignore that only one of them was elected to their position by the electorate.

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

Oh yes that's exactly what he said, so you're saying you as remain voter can misrepresent Johnson words but a Brexit voter shouldn't misrepresent Tusk? We'll ignore that only one of them was elected to their position by the electorate.

So you're admitting that you misrepresented Tusk?

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

Oh yes that's exactly what he said, so you're saying you as remain voter can misrepresent Johnson words but a Brexit voter shouldn't misrepresent Tusk? We'll ignore that only one of them was elected to their position by the electorate.

That's how I interpret Bojo's statement. Are you telling me how to think or telling me my opinion doesn't count?

Pr4wn wrote:Also, you don't think that referring those that voted for Brexit as having nothing to lose is a little..... belittling?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

Oh yes that's exactly what he said, so you're saying you as remain voter can misrepresent Johnson words but a Brexit voter shouldn't misrepresent Tusk? We'll ignore that only one of them was elected to their position by the electorate.

That's how I interpret Bojo's statement. Are you telling me how to think or telling me my opinion doesn't count?

Not at all, that is the point.

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

El Radar wrote:That's the big question isn't it, how do get that person to change their opinion without belittling them?

Not comparing them to Hitler is a good start.

How about not saying there's a special place in hell for Brexiteers perhaps?

True - but he was specifically referring to Brexiteer politicians who hadn't thought it through fully, not voters, so he knows there is no way to change the minds of those he is referring to. Whereas Bojo basically lumped any member of the general public who is pro-EU in with Hitler.

Oh yes that's exactly what he said, so you're saying you as remain voter can misrepresent Johnson words but a Brexit voter shouldn't misrepresent Tusk? We'll ignore that only one of them was elected to their position by the electorate.

That's how I interpret Bojo's statement. Are you telling me how to think or telling me my opinion doesn't count?

Not at all, that is the point.

I don't think I misrepresented Bojo, but I do think you misrepresented Tusk. That's my opinion.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If he does, then I don't know what he's playing at.

I’ll hazard a guess.

A warning shot to certain politicians that, actually, the EU really doesn’t feel it needs the UK to survive. It would rather we stayed, but if we think they value our business over the integrity of the EU as, for example, a peace project, we’ve got anothing think coming.

Yeah I've thought more about this, and I think the shock and outrage of some Brexiters - even though they're not the people Tusk is referring to - comes from the fact that they're used to other leaders being obsequious. There does still seem to be an expectation that other leaders should behave a certain way towards the UK simply because it's the UK.

I still think he should have known his comments would be wilfully misinterpreted, but it could well be that he's genuinely tired of the whole thing and doesn't much care what any Brexiters, or even Leave voters, think about him.

Oh, he knew his comments would be wilfully misinterpreted and/or cause Brexiteers to bang on about EU arrogance etc. There’s no way he didn’t know that and no way (all of?) the other EU27 leaders were unaware he was going to say that.
As I say, my money is on a not so veiled hint that, while they’d rather not, the rest of the EU is reasonably comfortable, and has come to terms, with us falling off the proverbial cliff on March 29th. I imagine they’ve done all their contingency planning; unlike us.

There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

It's like a game of chicken between a truck and a hedgehog.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Boris has compared the EU to Hitler in the past!

He has said that both the EU and Hitler (and others) want/wanted a European superstate, albeit they have pursued this through different methods. A perfectly valid point.

Not sure comparing an organisation that hasn't committed genocide to someone who literally committed genocide is a valid point, but we all have our own points of view.

The EU support a European superstate. Hitler supported a European superstate. Napoleon supported a European superstate. This is all true, and that's as far as it goes. Johnson did say that the methods used by the EU were different to that of Hitler and Napoleon.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

Somewhat true, I'd also argue we lack a leader with a pair of balls, ironically the one who possessed the biggest didn't have any at all.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's no doubt that the EU is better prepared. It makes it all the more laughable that we still think we can 'make them blink'. If our politicians (those in cabinet at least) weren't so deluded about or relative strength, we might have got somewhere. I don't know how many times the EU have to tell us that they're not going to favour a departing member state over a non-departing member state for us to believe it.

I've said it before, but the reputational damage that this whole thing has done is incalculable.

Spot on. Some of our politicians are living in a bygone, long gone era. A time when the UK had its OWN car industry not just a place where European and Asian car makers had factories. A time when it produced the majority of it's coal, built its own ships, built domestic electrical equipment, had its own steelworks - like I say a bygone age.

Indeed. This is just speeding up the realisation, both in the UK (hopefully) and elsewhere round the World, that we aren’t actually the pre-WWI Britain anymore. We have no Empire. We have no major industry of our own. There’s only ~65 million of us. Our armed forces aren’t what they’re trumpted to be. We can’t, essentially, bully anyone anymore.
It’s also letting the cat out of the bag i.e. that for the last ~70 years, we’ve been essentially all bluster, which others may actually have fallen for. Anyone see an Emperor wandering around devoid of clothing....?

There was a really good Twitter thread a few weeks ago written by a New Zealander who was taking to task one of the many commentators who keep saying that we stood alone in the Second World War before the US came in. We didn't stand alone at all - we called on / demanded the help of Empire countries. They had rationing in New Zealand, and elsewhere presumably, because of the war. Well we have none of that available to us now (or next to none of that). Plus, of course, this isn't a war, and we shouldn't be behaving as though it is.

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Boris has compared the EU to Hitler in the past!

He has said that both the EU and Hitler (and others) want/wanted a European superstate, albeit they have pursued this through different methods. A perfectly valid point.

Not sure comparing an organisation that hasn't committed genocide to someone who literally committed genocide is a valid point, but we all have our own points of view.

The EU support a European superstate. Hitler supported a European superstate. Napoleon supported a European superstate. This is all true, and that's as far as it goes. Johnson did say that the methods used by the EU were different to that of Hitler and Napoleon.

Wow, that's more insight than he usually has.