How will Schmidt's Head Coach decision impact on Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Joe Schmidt has said he will announce his decision about whether he will go or stay with Irish Rugby on Monday 26 Nov following the completion of the November tests.

Lots of media speculation thinks that he will say he is leaving and the obvious destination is New Zealand where he is considered a likely successor to Steve Hansen.  Hansen has said that he will make an announcement about his future before Christmas and clearly Schmidt's announcement will put the spotlight on him.   One assumes that all the relevant parties and unions know what is happening already and the various announcements are being choreographed accordingly.  

If Hansen and Schmidt were staying put then it would be straightforward enough to issue releases on the same day and everybody moves on quite quickly.
If Schmidt is leaving and putting himself in the frame for the top job in NZ then he can't say anything about what he's going to do to allow NZRU to choreograph announcement of Hansen's departure and his successor so other NZ coach hopefuls are not put out.
If Schmidt is staying and Hansen is leaving, with another successor to be appointed like Warren Gatland, then it makes sense to keep the two announcements apart.

There has been a procession of Irish players speaking out to media in recent weeks lauding Schmidt and what he's achieved and expressing hope that he stays.   It raises the question that if Schmidt announces he's leaving how might this impact on morale for the team in the run-up to the RWC?  Will it make them more determined to deliver for him, or will it undermine some of the wider squad players who may see their future lies with someone else?

Henry faced the problem of a team having a better plan so the rules were changed he didn't overcome it. How else did he turn things around against SA between WCs

Hansen has a problem with the rush defence will see if he can overcome it.

Amazing how Hansen is measured by his tenure at Wales fifty years ago. Hes won a world cup. Seven years after Henrys departure he still has the ABs at no.1. He lost some of the greatest ABs and players of all time in one day but still kept the machine running without missing a beat. Honestly. Does explain why the ringins are still needed. To fill the dumb gaps I guess.

Taylorman wrote:Amazing how Hansen is measured by his tenure at Wales fifty years ago. Hes won a world cup. Seven years after Henrys departure he still has the ABs at no.1. He lost some of the greatest ABs and players of all time in one day but still kept the machine running without missing a beat. Honestly. Does explain why the ringins are still needed. To fill the dumb gaps I guess.

So what you are saying is with some of the greatest ABs and players of all time he was in charge when the said players crushed all before them to claim the prize.

Brendan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Amazing how Hansen is measured by his tenure at Wales fifty years ago. Hes won a world cup. Seven years after Henrys departure he still has the ABs at no.1. He lost some of the greatest ABs and players of all time in one day but still kept the machine running without missing a beat. Honestly. Does explain why the ringins are still needed. To fill the dumb gaps I guess.

So what you are saying is with some of the greatest ABs and players of all time he was in charge when the said players crushed all before them to claim the prize.

No im not saying that at all because i dont even know what that means.
What I said was hes been able to manage the side both with and without them, yet still be the best side globslly. That is the measure of a great coach. Something obviously lost on you because of a welsh stint a thousand years ago clouding your ability to think. Anyone that says the ABs, or anyone else, won because of blah blah blah is just showing onvious envy.

They won because they wete the best side. A shame you have to belittle your thinking. It serves you no purpise.

It’s p*ss easy coaching the All Blacks, with all that talent. I’m pretty confident if I was given the ABs head coach job for the next World Cup they’d probably make the final and maybe even win it. Piece of p*ss. Easiest job in world rugby I reckon. Trying to get a team like Japan or Italy, for example, to compete on a world stage - now THAT is a challenge.

What has Hansen done in the last 7 years that is different from Henry or is he just following Henry's plan. From what I can see he is just managing the team rather than leading. Same at Wales.

Good coaches fix problems or put their stamp on the team. Take Joe as an example.there are many things you can point to that he has done which is why people are sad to see him go. Same for Gats and others.

How sad will the NZ public be if Hansen retires, I'm guessing not that much because they don't believe Hansen makes a difference. They believe the AB machine runs itself so does say much about the coach

To be fair focus on family could also mean returning to NZ.....

Brendan wrote:What has Hansen done in the last 7 years that is different from Henry or is he just following Henry's plan.  From what I can see he is just managing the team rather than leading.  Same at Wales.

Good coaches fix problems or put their stamp on the team. Take Joe as an example.there are many things you can point to that he has done which is why people are sad to see him go.  Same for Gats and others.

How sad will the NZ public be if Hansen retires, I'm guessing not that much because they don't believe Hansen makes a difference.  They believe the AB machine runs itself so does say much about the coach

Hansens done plenty but you can look all that up for yourself. I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant. If theres one thing we know how to do is coach rugby, as you see all around you.
Difference between hansen succeeding henry is that he followed in the steps of the most successful coach of all time so didnt have to make big changes.

Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches and systems so are obviously going to be noticed.

The Oracle wrote:It’s p*ss easy coaching the All Blacks, with all that talent. I’m pretty confident if I was given the ABs head coach job for the next World Cup they’d probably make the final and maybe even win it. Piece of p*ss. Easiest job in world rugby I reckon. Trying to get a team like Japan or Italy, for example, to compete on a world stage - now THAT is a challenge.

Well we put Ireland there, shouldnt be too hard

I am not so sure that Ireland will miss Schmidt, like any excellent manager he has developed the people under him to easily take over his role. He has developed a legacy of player development in Ireland that I do not feel will be changed anytime soon, if ever.
He came in and completely changed the culture in Irish rugby.

He is the greatest manager in Irish Rugby history and I feel he has left a permanent mark for going forward.

Taylorman wrote:

Brendan wrote:What has Hansen done in the last 7 years that is different from Henry or is he just following Henry's plan.  From what I can see he is just managing the team rather than leading.  Same at Wales.

Good coaches fix problems or put their stamp on the team. Take Joe as an example.there are many things you can point to that he has done which is why people are sad to see him go.  Same for Gats and others.

How sad will the NZ public be if Hansen retires, I'm guessing not that much because they don't believe Hansen makes a difference.  They believe the AB machine runs itself so does say much about the coach

Hansens done plenty but you can look all that up for yourself. I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant. If theres one thing we know how to do is coach rugby, as you see all around you.
Difference between hansen succeeding henry is that he followed in the steps of the most successful coach of all time so didnt have to make big changes.

Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches and systems so are obviously going to be noticed.

Quotes of the day:

"I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant"

followed by

"Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches"

Lesson one ignoramus. Schmidt followed a coach Declan Kidney who was world coach of the year in 2009 having lead Ireland to their only ever unbeaten year. There are a whole lot of systems in place in Irish rugby that are paying dividends now. Kidney won a grand slam, the second in Irish history. That's more that can be said for Henry or Hanson in their time up north.

Lesson two. Lancaster won the Champions cup a couple of seasons after leaving England and he is anything but rubbish.

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:It’s p*ss easy coaching the All Blacks, with all that talent. I’m pretty confident if I was given the ABs head coach job for the next World Cup they’d probably make the final and maybe even win it. Piece of p*ss. Easiest job in world rugby I reckon. Trying to get a team like Japan or Italy, for example, to compete on a world stage - now THAT is a challenge.

Well we put Ireland there, shouldnt be too hard

For the last 20 years Ireland have been a competitive side against all teams except NZ.

Italy and Japan have not.

If Lancaster is such a rubbish coach, how on earth did England manage to beat the All Black's 38-21 under his leadership by pretty much outplaying the All Blacks in every department?

eirebilly wrote:If Lancaster is such a rubbish coach, how on earth did England manage to beat the All Black's 38-21 under his leadership by pretty much outplaying the All Blacks in every department?

because they were all sick? Or was it too wet that day? I cant remember.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Brendan wrote:What has Hansen done in the last 7 years that is different from Henry or is he just following Henry's plan.  From what I can see he is just managing the team rather than leading.  Same at Wales.

Good coaches fix problems or put their stamp on the team. Take Joe as an example.there are many things you can point to that he has done which is why people are sad to see him go.  Same for Gats and others.

How sad will the NZ public be if Hansen retires, I'm guessing not that much because they don't believe Hansen makes a difference.  They believe the AB machine runs itself so does say much about the coach

Hansens done plenty but you can look all that up for yourself. I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant. If theres one thing we know how to do is coach rugby, as you see all around you.
Difference between hansen succeeding henry is that he followed in the steps of the most successful coach of all time so didnt have to make big changes.

Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches and systems so are obviously going to be noticed.

Quotes of the day:

"I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant"

followed by

"Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches"

Lesson one ignoramus. Schmidt followed a coach Declan Kidney who was world coach of the year in 2009 having lead Ireland to their only ever unbeaten year. There are a whole lot of systems in place in Irish rugby that are paying dividends now. Kidney won a grand slam, the second in Irish history. That's more that can be said for Henry or Hanson in their time up north.

Lesson two. Lancaster won the Champions cup a couple of seasons after leaving England and he is anything but rubbish.

New Zealand v Ireland 21-11
New Zealand v Ireland 22-3
New Zealand v Ireland 66-28
New Zealand v Ireland 38-18
New Zealand v Ireland 42-10
New Zealand v Ireland 22-19
New Zealand v Ireland 60-0
New Zealand v Ireland 24-22

Rubbish definitely defined there. Only two undecided before the final whistle, the rest over as far back as the first half.

The day an AB coach loses 60-0 is the day he gets sacked. Dont see Schmidt giving those sort of scores away. Schmidt is there BECAUSE of coaches like Kidney. Might have been a nice fulla and I dont care what he did in the little league.

The issue I see with Ireland next year is when they all run out for their quarter final theyll be up against a side that has won it two,or three times, and theyll be thinking gulp, weve never won one of these, and everyones expecting us to win. That will be their moment of truth.

We is gonna....................... choke?

All required to fulfil our destiny of course - all Great sides choke innit?  - It's a rite of passage

SecretFly wrote:We is gonna....................... choke?

All required to fulfil our destiny of course - all Great sides choke innit?  - It's a rite of passage

Well thats true and like us youve had more than your fair share. 91 I sure wish youd kept those pesky ozzies out. Would kinda preferred to play the greens.

Collapse2005 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:If Lancaster is such a rubbish coach, how on earth did England manage to beat the All Black's 38-21 under his leadership by pretty much outplaying the All Blacks in every department?

because they were all sick? Or was it too wet that day? I cant remember.

that was Wayne Barnes fault, because of his performance in 2007 RWC v France

That's the thing though, in any tournament a knock-out game can be turned by a decision and history changes. All winners need luck on their side.

Schmidt has built a game based on good percentages, but the favourite doesn't always win. Ireland's poor record at the RWC is because they have lacked the depth of other nations, so this time Joe has tilted those percentages more in his favour, but the psychological baggage of previous tournaments will also weigh heavily against him. Perhaps a semi-final exit would actually be an outstanding result and one Ireland never achieved before?

Schmidt has obviously realised that dragging a mediocre bunch of players up the rankings can just about be sustained until RWC19, but is taking such a heavy toll on his own life he cannot sustain it beyond that.

The Great Aukster wrote:That's the thing though, in any tournament a knock-out game can be turned by a decision and history changes. All winners need luck on their side.

Schmidt has built a game based on good percentages, but the favourite doesn't always win. Ireland's poor record at the RWC is because they have lacked the depth of other nations, so this time Joe has tilted those percentages more in his favour, but the psychological baggage of previous tournaments will also weigh heavily against him. Perhaps a semi-final exit would actually be an outstanding result and one Ireland never achieved before?

Schmidt has obviously realised that dragging a mediocre bunch of players up the rankings can just about be sustained until RWC19, but is taking such a heavy toll on his own life he cannot sustain it beyond that.

That probably is a lot closer to the mark than a lot of other commentary on his departure.

Oh I don't know. If we were to walk into the ABs top job post 2019, all he'd need is a comfortable armchair and a few good blockbuster novels..........................

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Brendan wrote:What has Hansen done in the last 7 years that is different from Henry or is he just following Henry's plan.  From what I can see he is just managing the team rather than leading.  Same at Wales.

Good coaches fix problems or put their stamp on the team. Take Joe as an example.there are many things you can point to that he has done which is why people are sad to see him go.  Same for Gats and others.

How sad will the NZ public be if Hansen retires, I'm guessing not that much because they don't believe Hansen makes a difference.  They believe the AB machine runs itself so does say much about the coach

Hansens done plenty but you can look all that up for yourself. I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant. If theres one thing we know how to do is coach rugby, as you see all around you.
Difference between hansen succeeding henry is that he followed in the steps of the most successful coach of all time so didnt have to make big changes.

Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches and systems so are obviously going to be noticed.

Quotes of the day:

"I cant be bothered teaching the ignorant"

followed by

"Both Jones and Schmidt followed rubbish coaches"

Lesson one ignoramus. Schmidt followed a coach Declan Kidney who was world coach of the year in 2009 having lead Ireland to their only ever unbeaten year. There are a whole lot of systems in place in Irish rugby that are paying dividends now. Kidney won a grand slam, the second in Irish history. That's more that can be said for Henry or Hanson in their time up north.

Lesson two. Lancaster won the Champions cup a couple of seasons after leaving England and he is anything but rubbish.

New Zealand v Ireland 21-11
New Zealand v Ireland 22-3
New Zealand v Ireland 66-28
New Zealand v Ireland 38-18
New Zealand v Ireland 42-10
New Zealand v Ireland 22-19
New Zealand v Ireland 60-0
New Zealand v Ireland 24-22

Rubbish definitely defined there. Only two undecided before the final whistle, the rest over as far back as the first half.

The day an AB coach loses 60-0 is the day he gets sacked. Dont see Schmidt giving those sort of scores away. Schmidt is there BECAUSE of coaches like Kidney. Might have been a nice fulla and I dont care what he did in the little league.

The issue I see with Ireland next year is when they all run out for their quarter final theyll be up against a side that has won it two,or three times, and theyll be thinking gulp, weve never won one of these, and everyones expecting us to win. That will be their moment of truth.

With any bit of luck we might run out on the pitch for our QF with a ref who will do everything to help us get that monkey off our backs. Even the best teams need that kind of help

Ireland will probably get smashed by NZ if they do meet in the World Cup. It would be funny if the didn’t though.

Cyril wrote:Ireland will probably get smashed by NZ if they do meet in the World Cup. It would be funny if the didn’t though.

Funnier than scotland beating them in pool, the most likeliest scenario for that to happen.

Tman, you seem to have stacked a lot of money on Scotland scuppering our evil plans for World Domination next year! That's 6N and WC that they're going to kill off our dreams.
I do seriously hope it wasn't your home you put on it as I'd be genuinely sad to hear of you living in the proverbial cardboard box for a few months.

England to beat Ireland and Scotland...or Wales, but not both to beat Ireland2019 6N.

Sounds like wishful thinking more than anything

Taylorman wrote:England to beat Ireland and Scotland...or Wales, but not both to beat Ireland2019 6N.

Could happen.

Scotland beating us in the WC pools too, with the mood the Irish team are going to be in by that point (especially if we lost to them in 6n). Well, good luck to them, I think they'll have to do a WC final level performance at that point - so if they win, they'll have deserved it.

Got to love breaks in international rugby, brings out some comedy gold on here

Got to love breaks in international rugby, brings out some comedy gold on here

New York, New York......

SecretFly wrote:New York, New York......

Ha ha, few will get that.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:New York, New York......

Ha ha, few will get that.

You must be a genius or something.

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:England to beat Ireland and Scotland...or Wales, but not both to beat Ireland2019 6N.

Could happen.  

Scotland beating us in the WC pools too, with the mood the Irish team are going to be in by that point (especially if we lost to them in 6n).  Well, good luck to them, I think they'll have to do a WC final level performance at that point - so if they win, they'll have deserved it.

I think if Ireland lose it will be to Wales, I think they are the top 2 followed by England and then Scotland. It will be a big challenge for Ireland to win in Cardiff but I am confident about the home games.

I will say it now.
Ireland will win the six Nations.
It will start with a convincing win against England (+12 minimum)
And finish with a hard slog win in Cardiff (+7 at the most)

carpet baboon wrote:I will say it now.
Ireland will win the six Nations.
It will start with a convincing win against England (+12 minimum)
And finish with a hard slog win in Cardiff (+7 at the most)

Thank You Carpet. Takes a load off my mind.

Well I do agree Cardiff will decide the Championship but I also think Wales will edge it.

Most years their performances improve as the tournament goes on, they've become very acute defensively and also take the chances. Its not pretty but then it also means less catch up rugby in the last 3rd which is how they've operated before. They've consistently found a way to win against some very good teams this year.

While it could go either way I just think Cardiff for a Slam decider, rather like in 05, leans towards a very good Welsh side.

All that being said, Ireland could walk off with it.

Didn't catch the Connacht game but some really good performances across the fixtures.

Henderson had a big game, as did Best. O'Sullivan added to the depth at loosehead with strong performances  from Healy and Kilcoyne also.

Murray and Stander stood out for Munster in a scrappy win and Ryan added yet another MOTM award.  

In the backs Addison was superb for Ulster and I actually think fairly nailed on for the RWC squad ahead of Conway due to his versatilty. Larmour and Stockdale picked up a try a piece.

The only concerns for Ireland would be that a Leinster backrow with VDF and Leavy starting really struggled to deal with Underhill at the break down.

Conway will be in the WC squad or Joe isn't Schmidt.

SecretFly wrote:Conway will be in the WC squad or Joe isn't Schmidt.

Can't see it Fly. Given Henshaw's record Joe will need 4 centres - Aki and Henshaw at 12 and Ringrose and Addison at 13.

I also think Beirne, Chris Farrell and one of Leavy/SOB (looking like Leavy) all just miss out unless there are injuries. I think Jordi Murphy's versatility will get him in and the 4 locks will be Toner, Ryan, Henderson and Roux. My predicted squad as of now -

Props - Healy, Furlong, McGrath, Porter, Bealham
Hooker - Best, Cronin, Scannell
Locks- Toner, Ryan, Henderson, Roux.
Backrow - Stander, POM, VDF, Murphy, O'Brien
Scrum half - Murray, Marmion, McGrath
Fly Half - Sexton, Carbury, Bryne
Centre - Ringrose, Aki, Henshaw, Addison
Back 3 - Earls, Stockdale, Kearney, Larmour

Was interesting that Leavy started at 8 for Leinster on Saturday. That may make him versatile enough if he gets more games there. It would be a shame for Leavy to be left out as I believe that he is now our best 7.

Also if Carbery can cover 15 then maybe Farrell will get selected ahead of Addison?

Barring injuries (and it's a long way to go yet) then the coin is with Larmour or Conway.

Very hard to separate Leavy and VdF imo,they have different strengths but I l like VdF.Leavy has been caught out defensively a few times,that's the only weakness I've seen in his game but it's enough to swing the decision for me.I would have been leaning towards Leavy before the Autumn but VdF showed he belongs at the very top level.
Tbh I'd be leaving SoB at home but I don't think Schmidt will do that.

I think he might.  Not only does SOB have to start at the beginning again (which might transmit to being very fresh come WC - a potential good thing) but he also has to prove his presence is still sufficient to demand a WC place on form.  He can't just walk in and say 'me name is Sean' and expect that to get him on a plane.  

I really don't think Joe will have a place for him if he doesn't prove his value in a good few games pre-WC.  Warning - he breaks very easily now; another risk.

One thing is for sure some very good players will miss out. I do think Schmidt already knows his 31.

Fly I believe Larmour is nailed on, Conway is a Schmidt favorite but so is Addison - I just think Addison is unique in his ability to cover the 3 outside back positions and that will allow Schmidt to take an extra halfback, without sacrificing the midfield cover,

The back row is super competitive - I did think VDF would miss out at Leavy's expense but I think now Leavy is competing with O'Brien and the latter will go if fit. It will be interesting to see if Leavy gets another run at no8.

Conway can cover 12, 11, 14 and 15 rodders. not that I do not think that Addison would be a good option either.

JJ Hanrahan to make the RWC19 squad

rodders wrote:Fly I believe Larmour is nailed on, Conway is a Schmidt favorite but so is Addison - I just think Addison is unique in his ability to cover the 3 outside back positions and that will allow Schmidt to take an extra halfback, without sacrificing the midfield cover,

We'll have to fight it out in an MMA octagon to decide who gets that seat, rodders. No refs allowed - anything goes. I will not be wearing my titanium needle sharp knuckle dusters........................... I promise..............................

rodders wrote:One thing is for sure some very good players will miss out. I do think Schmidt already knows his 31.

Fly I believe Larmour is nailed on, Conway is a Schmidt favorite but so is Addison - I just think Addison is unique in his ability to cover the 3 outside back positions and that will allow Schmidt to take an extra halfback, without sacrificing the midfield cover,

The back row is super competitive - I did think VDF would miss out at Leavy's expense but I think now Leavy is competing with O'Brien and the latter will go if fit. It will be interesting to see if Leavy gets another run at no8.

Very good chance you are right on Addison.

Putting Beirne in stead of Roux would give extra backrow cover. I think the backrowers have to be able to cover two positions - 6/8 particularly. SOB covers 7/8, vDF is more specialized at 7 as is Leavy which is maybe why he was tried at 8. Whoever misses out I suspect will coincidentally be sampling the delights of a Japanese holiday next September/October.

Cooney could be a third 9 with option of covering 10 so maybe only two outhalves or three midfielders and five back three with Addison the most versatile - he looks very good at 13. Could Chris Farrell come into the reckoning instead of Aki?

No point in taking three outhalfs. It's a position that needs gametime and Joe will want to rotate.