How will Schmidt's Head Coach decision impact on Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Joe Schmidt has said he will announce his decision about whether he will go or stay with Irish Rugby on Monday 26 Nov following the completion of the November tests.

Lots of media speculation thinks that he will say he is leaving and the obvious destination is New Zealand where he is considered a likely successor to Steve Hansen.  Hansen has said that he will make an announcement about his future before Christmas and clearly Schmidt's announcement will put the spotlight on him.   One assumes that all the relevant parties and unions know what is happening already and the various announcements are being choreographed accordingly.  

If Hansen and Schmidt were staying put then it would be straightforward enough to issue releases on the same day and everybody moves on quite quickly.
If Schmidt is leaving and putting himself in the frame for the top job in NZ then he can't say anything about what he's going to do to allow NZRU to choreograph announcement of Hansen's departure and his successor so other NZ coach hopefuls are not put out.
If Schmidt is staying and Hansen is leaving, with another successor to be appointed like Warren Gatland, then it makes sense to keep the two announcements apart.

There has been a procession of Irish players speaking out to media in recent weeks lauding Schmidt and what he's achieved and expressing hope that he stays.   It raises the question that if Schmidt announces he's leaving how might this impact on morale for the team in the run-up to the RWC?  Will it make them more determined to deliver for him, or will it undermine some of the wider squad players who may see their future lies with someone else?

Irelands style... heavily defensive, high contact levels will require all the depth it has ... plus a lot of luck...to maintain a fully competitive squad at final time. In 2015 they couldnt even get a reasonable sideto the quarters. Even if theyd miraculously beaten argie they would have been thumped semis and certainly final.

Weve used up to 4 10’s world cup time and Sexton and lately Murray are injury risks so more than two 10’s Id say is a rock solid guarantee.

Schmidt turned down an assistant role with NZ according to Tew. Thoughts?

Is he too defensive and negative for NZ or would the environment make him more expansive with more attacking-minded players?

NZ would make him more attacking. Its all we know. Different horses and courses. In Ireland he started with all the horses in front of him. In NZ theyd all be behind him albeit closely. To go forward from there you dont play defensively.
That keeps you in the peleton.

Schmidt isn't playing 2nd fiddle - he's a cut above everyone but Hansen and doesnt need to serve the typical NZ apprenticeship. I still think he is in the running on the QT.

I reckon Schmidt will take some time out and end up at Toulon for the big money, good weather and culture. He’ll have been missing the last two for a few years.

I used to think that Schmidt was overly defensive but my opinion has changed over the last 2 years.


He is a more attacking coach than many (including myself in the past) give him credit for, his attacking set pieces some of the best attacking rugby I have seen.

Play to strengths as well. Ireland's got a great pack why wouldn't you prioritise that?

Cyril wrote:I reckon Schmidt will take some time out and end up at Toulon for the big money, good weather and culture. He’ll have been missing the last two for a few years.

Good to see you you have reverted to your old moronic posts.

Taylorman wrote:Irelands style... heavily defensive, high contact levels will require all the depth it has ... plus a lot of luck...to maintain a fully competitive squad at final time. In 2015 they couldnt even get a reasonable sideto the quarters. Even if theyd miraculously beaten argie they would have been thumped semis and certainly final.

Weve used up to 4 10’s world cup time and Sexton and lately Murray are injury risks so more than two 10’s Id say is a rock solid guarantee.

You still dont understand Irelands gameplan at all do you?

How can you dominate posession for pretty much every game under your coaching tenure and be considered defensive? Being good in defense isnt the same as being a defensive side. Defending is what you do when you dont have the ball. Attacking is what you do when you have the ball. Ireland almost always have more posession than their opponents and therefore are an attacking side. Their attack may not be as effective as some sides but they still score a lot of tries

I think many people miss the point with Schmidt. He is an attack minded coach, he just prioritizes the basic aspects of the game - set piece, ruck, work rate, defense, off the ball movement ahead of players attacking ability.  

It's just taken him a lot longer to get players up to the right skill levels and fitness to play the way he wants with Ireland, which is with the ball in hand.

From the last RWC he stuck very much to Leinster players he trusted but in the interim he's brought through a new generation of players in the mold he wants and via Nucifera gradually filtered down his standards and expectations to the provinces.

I genuinely believe we are seeing Ireland under Schmidt taking rugby union to a level of intensity and professionalism it has never been played at, certainly not in the Northern Hemisphere.

The question for me is where they are on the curve, the 6N will give a good indication of that. There's no doubt that many of the players have scope to improve.

Hooker, no 8 and fly half are positions were we are lacking options but heading into 2019 things are looking very positive.

Getting more than a little carried away there, rodders. Talk about hyperbole!

Taylorman wrote:Weve used up to 4 10’s world cup time and Sexton and lately Murray are injury risks so more than two 10’s Id say is a rock solid guarantee.

What year was that? Taking four tens either shows a lack of confidence in the 'starters' or a lack of confidence in the understudies based on an inside knowledge that the starters are carrying injuries.

2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Irelands style... heavily defensive, high contact levels will require all the depth it has ... plus a lot of luck...to maintain a fully competitive squad at final time. In 2015 they couldnt even get a reasonable sideto the quarters. Even if theyd miraculously beaten argie they would have been thumped semis and certainly final.

Weve used up to 4 10’s world cup time and Sexton and lately Murray are injury risks so more than two 10’s Id say is a rock solid guarantee.

You still dont understand Irelands gameplan at all do you?

How can you dominate posession for pretty much every game under your coaching tenure and be considered defensive? Being good in defense isnt the same as being a defensive side. Defending is what you do when you dont have the ball. Attacking is what you do when you have the ball. Ireland almost always have more posession than their opponents and therefore are an attacking side. Their attack may not be as effective as some sides but they still score a lot of tries

Geez, talk about amateur day at the park. Oh is that really waht defence and attack actually mean?

Gee, im enlightened now.

And you have never understood what it takes to stay consistently at no.1. I mean, how could you have?

I mean, I back my team cos I know what theyre about. You dont even back your side. So what confidence does that gove me that you know... well... anything?

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

They played four, so the romantic gesture that they need time isnt always a novel one. Ireland wouldnt know that though not having to sustain a full tournament.

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

They played four, so the romantic gesture that they need time isnt always a novel one. Ireland wouldnt know that though not having to sustain a full tournament.

Sorry can't decipher that, but I think what you're saying is that NZ went to the RWC with a dodgy Carter and still only selected two tens in the initial squad?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

They played four, so the romantic gesture that they need time isnt always a novel one. Ireland wouldnt know that though not having to sustain a full tournament.

Sorry can't decipher that, but I think what you're saying is that NZ went to the RWC with a dodgy Carter and still only selected two tens in the initial squad?

What I'm saying is that assume you will need only 2 10's - 'because they need time on the field' as you have stated, isnt necessarily how it pans out. In fact I'll bet Ireland take two 10s and a third for cover. Fact is they need to ensure Sexton is standing at the end of the tournament or Ireland will have no chance. He's old and frail in terms of a World cup campaign, especially in light of the heavy contact demands of Ireland's heavily defensive oriented game.

Oppositions will target Sexton all day if they have to with the ball they get. He runs little in test rugby these days- proved by the Italy match where he had ample ball and did nothing personally other than pass it on. 'Sharing the load' isnt an approach Schmidt is likely to take. Protecting the heck out of Sexton is.

I see Hansens finished post World cup. Onwards and upwards. Perfect timing for Schmidt to change his mind and take the reigns. His loyalty to his family's needs could spike a review and his announcement to do 'nothing' in a rugby sense may have been an astute move...bide time so hansen can make his mind up.

Looks like NZ have a plethora of options should they be available. Gats, Schmidt, Razor, Fossie, Joseph, even Cotter and Rennie if they throw their hats in.

Interesting days ahead for AB rugby.

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

They played four, so the romantic gesture that they need time isnt always a novel one. Ireland wouldnt know that though not having to sustain a full tournament.

Sorry can't decipher that, but I think what you're saying is that NZ went to the RWC with a dodgy Carter and still only selected two tens in the initial squad?

What I'm saying is that assume you will need only 2 10's - 'because they need time on the field' as you have stated, isnt necessarily how it pans out. In fact I'll bet Ireland take two 10s and a third for cover. Fact is they need to ensure Sexton is standing at the end of the tournament or Ireland will have no chance. He's old and frail in terms of a World cup campaign, especially in light of the heavy contact demands of Ireland's heavily defensive oriented game.

Oppositions will target Sexton all day if they have to with the ball they get. He runs little in test rugby these days- proved by the Italy match where he had ample ball and did nothing personally other than pass it on. 'Sharing the load' isnt an approach Schmidt is likely to take. Protecting the heck out of Sexton is.

Joe's philosophy isn't centred around individuals. He will pack the squad with players he fully intends to use and who can execute his plans. He will take either John Cooney who is primarily a 9 but can cover 10 or Hanrahan who can cover 10, 12 and 15. That will be all the utility cover he needs and he has the luxury that if either Sexton or Carbery get seriously injured he can fly in Byrne. Murray has shown he is not indispensable, and neither is Sexton.

Taylorman wrote:I see Hansens finished post World cup. Onwards and upwards. Perfect timing for Schmidt to change his mind and take the reigns. His loyalty to his family's needs could spike a review and his announcement to do 'nothing' in a rugby sense may have been an astute move...bide time so hansen can make his mind up.

Looks like NZ have a plethora of options should they be available. Gats, Schmidt, Razor, Fossie, Joseph, even Cotter and Rennie if they throw their hats in.

Interesting days ahead for AB rugby.

That's one hard headed Individualistic hombre - Schmidt.  That's two auspicious jobs he's turned down with it seems cool indifference - Lions assistant role and the ABs assistance role.  That's not to denigrate those job offers at all.  I'm sure he was honoured to be asked and I'm sure snubbing either role Wasn't his intention.  I'm merely pointing out how single minded and stubborn a man he seems to be.  His mind is focused on things and it's not to be moved if he fixes on it.

Yes, he might move into the AB job.... something we'd have to be hearing about pretty soon if it were meant to happen as I'm sure that the ABs want a smooth transition and that the new man will be up and running behind the scenes getting his term prepared.

I'd still be surprised Tman, if it was Schmidt.  I think if he were intending to take up the job and it was cause for him ending his time with Ireland, then he'd just say it.  He knows all of Ireland would have understood his position.  It's not like he'd have been pelted with eggs.  He knows that.  So if there was no reason for subterfuge then I think yes, he must simply be exhausted with the demands of rugby right now added to his family issues.

PS - and I'm not saying he would have said he intends taking over at ABs (even if that was the planning behind the scenes)  He couldn't and wouldn't have been so direct (if it was ordained) before allowing Hansen to make his statement first.  But were Schmidt intending to take over, he could easily have simply said that it was time for him to move on and seek other coaching options at this time in his career.

Id day Scott Robertson will get the job. Rog head coach of the Crusaiders?

Cyril wrote:Getting more than a little carried away there, rodders. Talk about hyperbole!

Thanks for doing our RWC final team talk Cyril.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:2011. Injuries to Carter and Slade saw Cruden and Donald called up to replace them.

So they only took two then - thought so.

Yep - Carter and Cruden then are the equivalent of Sexton and Carbery at Ireland now.  
Byrne and Keatley the other two with recent/limited test experience.  

They played four, so the romantic gesture that they need time isnt always a novel one. Ireland wouldnt know that though not having to sustain a full tournament.

Sorry can't decipher that, but I think what you're saying is that NZ went to the RWC with a dodgy Carter and still only selected two tens in the initial squad?

What I'm saying is that assume you will need only 2 10's - 'because they need time on the field' as you have stated, isnt necessarily how it pans out. In fact I'll bet Ireland take two 10s and a third for cover. Fact is they need to ensure Sexton is standing at the end of the tournament or Ireland will have no chance. He's old and frail in terms of a World cup campaign, especially in light of the heavy contact demands of Ireland's heavily defensive oriented game.

Oppositions will target Sexton all day if they have to with the ball they get. He runs little in test rugby these days- proved by the Italy match where he had ample ball and did nothing personally other than pass it on. 'Sharing the load' isnt an approach Schmidt is likely to take. Protecting the heck out of Sexton is.

Joe's philosophy isn't centred around individuals. He will pack the squad with players he fully intends to use and who can execute his plans. He will take either John Cooney who is primarily a 9 but can cover 10 or Hanrahan who can cover 10, 12 and 15. That will be all the utility cover he needs and he has the luxury that if either Sexton or Carbery get seriously injured he can fly in Byrne. Murray has shown he is not indispensable, and neither is Sexton.

Better points, but no one has proved anything from a world cup knockout perspective, in fact its that very reason we are told the side exited last time. The unavailability of indispensible players. This is the big league, not the tiddlywinks of the AI’s. Byrne or Carbery starts in a knockout through Sextons unavailabilty? Ireland wont win the tournament.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id day Scott Robertson will get the job. Rog head coach of the Crusaiders?

I hope so, and ROG wont get head coach of the Crusaders, no chance, but he could as he says go with Razor to the ABs, but do wish ROG would stop the gushing, itsembarrassing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/109360862/ronan-ogara-endorses-crusaders-coach-scott-robertson-as-next-all-blacks-coach

If this is the shock levels of the first significant NH insight into NZ rugby you have to wonder what hes come from to be so inspired.

He came from one of the great cultural cities with about half the population of New Zealand - Paris n'est pas? They don't 'donner une figue' about rugby really so naturally he is going to gush in a place that has some interest in the game?

The Great Aukster wrote:He came from one of the great cultural cities with about half the population of New Zealand.

Steady Aukster! Cork is a great little city but I think you're overselling it there....

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Id day Scott Robertson will get the job. Rog head coach of the Crusaiders?

I hope so, and ROG wont get head coach of the Crusaders, no chance, but he could as he says go with Razor to the ABs, but do wish ROG would stop the gushing, itsembarrassing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/109360862/ronan-ogara-endorses-crusaders-coach-scott-robertson-as-next-all-blacks-coach

If this is the shock levels of the first significant NH insight into NZ rugby you have to wonder what hes come from to be so inspired.

He is just being pleasnt. You should try it some time.

Nah, hes genuinely over tge top, no one constantly flips out like that unless hes had some sort if overwhelming experience. Plus it explains the difference in standards from where hes previously been. More from the NH should try it and learn it at the source than simply pulling the wallet out and absorbing it through osmosis as the north is now via the numerous coaches and players there now.

ROG will be a much better coach for it, provided hes also learnt how to apply it to a given northern side.

We have both benefitted from the ROG experience. Just a pity it took Dan Carter to push ROG into that space and to his credit to ROG for taking that leap of faith. NHers need to do more of the work in that area and not just sit back on their fat asses waiting for the next recruits to come in.

The club bosses particularly are plundering a gold mine until like most deserted mines there's simply nothing left. It's an irresponsible plight on our game. Its typical of money making in sport to maximise revenue but its far too one way. Somethings gonna break, and hopefully its the demise of some of the more selfish clubs, who put nothing back into where the players come from.

Despite his often dour expressions, ROG is also a man who likes the craic... and likes a punt. I wouldn't at all be surprised that he has a bet with someone (maybe even with Dan Carter himself) to lay it on with a trowel in all interviews. He's probably making some good money each time he smothers it with schmaltz. He'd be up to it, no doubt. He's a playful old dog - deadpan - but playful.

SecretFly wrote:Despite his often dour expressions, ROG is also a man who likes the craic... and likes a punt.  I wouldn't at all be surprised that he has a bet with someone (maybe even with Dan Carter himself) to lay it on with a trowel in all interviews.  He's probably making some good money each time he smothers it with schmaltz.  He'd be up to it, no doubt.  He's a playful old dog - deadpan - but playful.

Bless him, DC just named Japans MVP...say what?, hes older than ROG isnt he?

Still has gas in the tank, for sure. Next year he'll be further preparing his path to retirement by joining the Kindergarten Flying Dragon side in Up State New York. I'm sure he'll win another prize at the end of that season too. Bag of sweets and a trip to Disney is on the cards.

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Despite his often dour expressions, ROG is also a man who likes the craic... and likes a punt.  I wouldn't at all be surprised that he has a bet with someone (maybe even with Dan Carter himself) to lay it on with a trowel in all interviews.  He's probably making some good money each time he smothers it with schmaltz.  He'd be up to it, no doubt.  He's a playful old dog - deadpan - but playful.

Bless him, DC just named Japans MVP...say what?, hes older than ROG isnt he?

Kobe Steel is a traditional powerhouse in Japanese club rugby but hadn't won the title since 15 years ago when the league started in its current format. Carter's work ethic and commitment is widely seen as being the key difference in reviving their fortunes this year. However, he didn't actually make this season's All Star Team - which I don't think has ever happened before - so his MVP award is as much about honouring the man as the player. That's not to say he played like a drain: his game management was as good as ever.

Good to know the tournaments most valuable player didnt play like a drain then. I mean whats underneath the drain for all those that didnt win it?

Like when Ryan giggs won player of the year. An accolade for his career rather than form.

Yes it really depends what you want to believe. Sexton had a good career so he deserves one on the mantle as well.

He wasnt brilliant, just the same old steady sexton. And it wasnt his best ever year so giving out POTY at 33? seemed a fitting gesture when player of the year stocks were low. So yeah, agree.

Yup. Steadily the best fly half in the world.

Taylorman wrote:Yes it really depends what you want to believe. Sexton had a good career so he deserves one on the mantle as well.

He wasnt brilliant, just the same old steady sexton. And it wasnt his best ever year so giving out POTY at 33? seemed a fitting gesture when player of the year stocks were low. So yeah, agree.

"player of the year stocks were low" translates to NZ players didn't play that well this year as opposed to players elsewhere.

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:He came from one of the great cultural cities with about half the population of New Zealand.

Steady Aukster!  Cork is a great little city but I think you're overselling it there....

Interesting bit of selective quoting SF - do you write the snippets on a novel's back cover? Well if you're going back in ROG's biog - San Diego has a population of 1.5 million and couldn't give a yippee ki yay about rugby either.

Is this chapter headed: Junior coach (concurrently coming out of contract), affirms he would move with his current boss shocker.

One is always selective when wise-cracking, though. It's the definition, irrh is - innit?

If you crack something wise, all that's left is a silly craic.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Yes it really depends what you want to believe. Sexton had a good career so he deserves one on the mantle as well.

He wasnt brilliant, just the same old steady sexton. And it wasnt his best ever year so giving out POTY at 33? seemed a fitting gesture when player of the year stocks were low. So yeah, agree.

"player of the year stocks were low" translates to NZ players didn't play that well this year as opposed to players elsewhere.

I know...and remember Sexton wasn't brilliant. but he was better than any kiwi and POTY.

Pie wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Yes it really depends what you want to believe. Sexton had a good career so he deserves one on the mantle as well.

He wasnt brilliant, just the same old steady sexton. And it wasnt his best ever year so giving out POTY at 33? seemed a fitting gesture when player of the year stocks were low. So yeah, agree.

"player of the year stocks were low" translates to NZ players didn't play that well this year as opposed to players elsewhere.

I know...and remember Sexton wasn't brilliant. but he was better than any kiwi and POTY.

Exactly, good year to reward a career where he couldnt win it when other performances were great. Rugby funs logic of course. Next year would be a better year to win it, for if he does, Ireland will have probably won the World cup. Nothing like a bit of pressure on the ageing, frail, injury prone, ‘do less these days’ fly half.

Oh well, DC managed it beyond all expectations, Sexton might be made of similar stuff.

Ah I see so to be clear Sexton one because NZ were shoite.

Pie wrote:Ah I see so to be clear Sexton one because NZ were shoite.

Who mentioned NZ?The year didnt have a lot of standout performances, from anyone.

In things NZ Barrett had by a mile the standout test performance, but not a very consistent year. Retallick scored a memorable try but missed some of the season and was patchy at times. SA and Oz didnt have anyone that really stood out all year though Pocock rallied all year Diyanti deserved his award.

Furlong, Sanchez, Cody Taylor, Reiko and stockdale had very solid years. So did Sexton, without setting the world on fire at any time. For me as a ten at test level simply doesnt do enough in the role. Barretts had his critics too. Those are mine. Got a problem with that?

Retallicks try of the year award was a charity award to keep the SANZAR teams spirits up. There were about 5 or 6 more impressive tries this year.

Only Ioane deserved a nomination for NZ and at a push maybe Ben Smith who was probably NZs second best player. James Ryan had a better season than all NZ players as did Furlong and Sexton and probably Stockdale too.

I fancy Scotland to be a real banana skin for NZ in the quarters.

Collapse2005 wrote:Retallicks try of the year award was a charity award to keep the SANZAR teams spirits up. There were about 5 or 6 more impressive tries this year.

Only Ioane deserved a nomination for NZ and at a push maybe Ben Smith who was probably NZs second best player. James Ryan had a better season than all NZ players as did Furlong and Sexton and probably Stockdale too.

I fancy Scotland to be a real banana skin for NZ in the quarters.

Yes yes thats all very well but they aren't NZers so they cant be THAT good

This may go down in the annals of time as the single most beautifully optimistic aspiration in the history of the world.

Maitland is

Well that would be a first ever win but in Japan? I doubt it. Id be more concerned about them at home vs Ireland at 6N time and Ireland vs SA innJapan, two far more likely ‘upsets’ though SA beating Ireland in a world cup will never be an upset for me. Id expect it.
Agree on Retallicks try, a pity award like Sextons, we do that sort of thing all the time. Whitelocks 50m try for the Crusaders a few years ago was better.