How will Schmidt's Head Coach decision impact on Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

Joe Schmidt has said he will announce his decision about whether he will go or stay with Irish Rugby on Monday 26 Nov following the completion of the November tests.

Lots of media speculation thinks that he will say he is leaving and the obvious destination is New Zealand where he is considered a likely successor to Steve Hansen.  Hansen has said that he will make an announcement about his future before Christmas and clearly Schmidt's announcement will put the spotlight on him.   One assumes that all the relevant parties and unions know what is happening already and the various announcements are being choreographed accordingly.  

If Hansen and Schmidt were staying put then it would be straightforward enough to issue releases on the same day and everybody moves on quite quickly.
If Schmidt is leaving and putting himself in the frame for the top job in NZ then he can't say anything about what he's going to do to allow NZRU to choreograph announcement of Hansen's departure and his successor so other NZ coach hopefuls are not put out.
If Schmidt is staying and Hansen is leaving, with another successor to be appointed like Warren Gatland, then it makes sense to keep the two announcements apart.

There has been a procession of Irish players speaking out to media in recent weeks lauding Schmidt and what he's achieved and expressing hope that he stays.   It raises the question that if Schmidt announces he's leaving how might this impact on morale for the team in the run-up to the RWC?  Will it make them more determined to deliver for him, or will it undermine some of the wider squad players who may see their future lies with someone else?

Don Alfonso wrote:So.

Who do we speak to about getting Joe an OBE for services to rugby in Northern Ireland?

Joe is worthy of all awards he gets. As an Irish man that honour would mean nothing much to me albeit my cousin has an OBE and I am very proud of her. I cant speak for him but I suppose if he was awarded one there wouldn't be much doubt to me he would deserve it.

rodders wrote:So as expected Joe is gone after the RWC.

He is genuinely irreplaceable, a genius. I think he not just the best coach in rugby but possibly any sport and we'll never see the likes of him again.

At both Leinster and Ireland he's had good players to work with but there's no doubt for me he was fundamental their successes and making them much more than the sum of their parts.

I'm sure he will be like a man possessed over the next 11 months to go out on a high.

Farrell is the obvious replacement. He's certainly added something since he came in and will continue to drive standards forward, so although I'm very sad to see Joe leave we are lucky to have such a quality replacement already in place.
   

Yeah he is the Irish Vince Lombardi. I doubt Joe will ever be forgotten.

He is going back to New Zealand.  He's going to retire for probably 2 years, then he is going to return like McArthur and coach Leinster again to warm up before resuming his Ireland role.
More dreaming.... sorry.

The man is NOT retiring for good.  If that man never returns to rugby again in a coaching capacity I'll be truly impressed by his inner convictions and resoluteness.

I'd imagine Hansen's declaration now will determine what the timeframe might be for Joe's return to coaching work.  I think the career break is to give him an opportunity to accept an assistant role at the ABs for a period rather than walking straight in to a step-down role post 2019.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

rodders wrote:All good things come to an end, I'm just glad to have lived at a time to witness Ireland evolve from 5N wooden spooners to a genuine world force.

That certainly didn't begin with Joe but he has certainly taken things to another level.

That's exactly how I feel about it Rodders, it's been a privilege but this time next year it'll be time to move on to a new era for Irish rugby. We can't replace Joe, there's nobody out there that can.

I agree. Amazing man. I can see Ireland going back to a 2nd/3rd place team for a long time now.

Is it true he is quitting rugby altogether or just for the moment? Is he staying in Ireland or going back to NZ?

It's hard to predict. Farrell is an unknown quantity as a head coach but his record with us and the Lions hard to ignore, he is clearly held in high regard by Joe so he must have something about him.

Ireland have had a noticeable improvement in fitness and physicality since he's come on board but again that could be coincidental.

I do have my doubts, he and Lancaster clearly had some problems with England but I'm willing to give him a chance. I do wonder about the man management side and we'll definitely lose the attacking nuances when Joe leaves. I wonder if we might see O'Connell join the fold?

I guess it makes sense that he just quits. Why would you want to leave the best side in rugby to coach the second best?

rodders wrote:I wonder if we might see O'Connell join the fold?  

The thought crossed my mind this morning but then I faded it out.  I think the system is going okay and might handle the absence of Joe if not too much fiddling is done elsewhere.  Time enough still for O'Connell or O'Gara to have an Ireland International coaching career.

But on Joe.  Commentators on the outside might often be accused of overdoing it about him............. the factor as it were

We tend to get squeamish with the overly saccharin appraisals - or so I thought before Mick McCarthy was brought back to Irish football...........

Anyway, Conway's analysis of Joe's role reconfirms that he's the special one.... despite someone like Farrell coming in to solidify the grunt.  Conway just said that outsiders don't even know half of it when describing Joe's methods

.... but that intensity probably does inform his choice of dropping out of the rat race for a bit.

Not sure I am overly happy about Farrell taking the job, feel he is much better placed as a defensive coach. For me Lancaster is the better option.

Lancaster may have learnt lessons from his previous tenure as England coach and at least knows many of the Ireland players now. However he will not know the detail of the individual player programmes that Farrell will. Ireland should be looking for continuity post 2019 and Farrell will be clued into that.

I respect that but I just feel that Farrell is far better in the background doing what he is doing exceptionally well now for Ireland. For me, Lancaster is the best man to replace Schmidt.

I suspect they've been planning for this for a while, Farrell is in high demand as a defense coach so its clear that the prospect of the head role is what has convinced him to stick with the IRFU, even when the RFU came calling recently.

He has big boots to fill and needs to prove he's more than a no 2 and defensive guru (remember Less Kiss anyone??), but I think he's earned his shot.

Taylorman wrote:

Pie wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pie wrote:Schmidt now has to be the prime candidate for the ABs even though Gatland would like to think its his. NZRFU doesnt.
I dont think Schmidt would pass up the ABs commencing 2020 even with an offer of the Lions in 2021. And I cant see NZRFU allowing him to do it - the WRU ought never to have allowed Gatland to do 3 tours in his tenure and I think Wales could have achieved so much more had they not.

A good few Welsh supporters probably feel their role in those Lions tours (players plus coaches) compensated for the National side being sidetracked.  But I'd be with you, Wales should have come first, second and third, and if Schmidt stuck around in Ireland, I'd hope that it wouldn't be for the carrot of Lions.  That's not the right kind of 'staying' in my eyes.  Ireland have a lot of selfish work to do over the next number of years.  ABs look after themselves - all other Nations should follow the habit.

Interesting Lions tours are said not to be popular when they are by far... far, the biggest supported rugby tour overseas by fans, ofvany country/ies anywhere.

I think it because it smacks of old school tours and I expect Home Nations fans have the most cash to splash on these jaunts....I've been on two 09 and 13 and they were superb.

Fans were everywhere here in Wellington during last years tour. Great bunch. Very popular to talk to wherever they went, especially in pubs when you had the 50’s and 60’s lot all reminiscing about the tours in the 60s etc.

After five minutes youd think two strangers were lifetime mates talking about a match they both went to forty years ago. When they come in big numbers like that kiwis love getting out and just talking rugby.

Its great to travel to the other side of the world and find people who love this game as much as the traveling fans do; and usually the reception is exceptional though I have to say walking into the stands at Loftus was pretty intimidating lol.

Coming down to NZ myself in 2019. Touring both islands and catching some super rugby in Auckland and Christchurch. Cant wait.

Wow just read Schmidt's saving his marriage and not going for the AB job.....Gatland it is then

Its a great experience watching rugby in NZ, so glad I did the Lions tour last year.

eirebilly wrote:I respect that but I just feel that Farrell is far better in the background doing what he is doing exceptionally well now for Ireland. For me, Lancaster is the best man to replace Schmidt.

Farrell is on the inside, and both Schmidt and Nucifora will know exactly his capabilities, which no doubt they have reported to the IRFU.

Lancaster may now be rehabilitated as a provincial coach, but has his philosophy changed? He always seemed to be looking for X factor players in his tenure at England, culminating in the Sam Burgess debacle. That was a polar opposite to Schmidt who prefers to incrementally improve individual players skills so that they could fulfil a role in the team. Lancaster would find an X shaped peg and cut a hole in the team to accommodate it, whereas Schmidt starts with the square hole in the team and modifies the peg until it fits. Would Schmidt have changed the team to find a place for Burgess, or would he have worked with Burrell, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Tuilagi, Barritt, Tomkins or Slade to turn them all into what he needed and build depth?

From the inside Farrell can provide continuity, so why would the IRFU take a punt on a re-born Lancaster and let a competitor pinch a prize asset?

Pie wrote:Wow just read Schmidt's saving his marriage and not going for the AB job.....Gatland it is then

I wouldnt say he is definitely going to quit rugby. He is so obsessed with it so I can see him doing something and that something may be the ABs job. Id imagine he just doesn't want any speculation right now as to what that something will be.

The ABs job would possibly be a more relaxing stint for a man who gets so emotionally involved.  It's strange that people call him clinical and pragmatic when in truth he might be both those things on the surface, but he's also feverishly, mentally agitated by the detail pre and post game and genuinely is in it for the emotional 'fix' of winning.

So it's obvious that rugby is a real drug to him.  

But I'm not sure the call-a-spade-a-spade New Zealand environment would allow one man to be so possessed about his own ideas.  There'd be a crop of people there to take the weight off Schmidt's shoulders and tell him bluntly that they got their own ideas and haven't often needed so much advice from outside to change too many of those ideas.
That might allow Schmidt the opportunity to relax more and not expect to be the one always coming up with all the detail, all the research and all the strategies.

Then again, the more I think about it, the more I think I and others might be doing him a real disservice.  
Maybe he IS telling the absolute truth - that he wants out - for good.  

If that proves true, if he genuinely does drift into a different career and never coaches at the highest levels again, I think that would only make his story an even more beautiful tale.
Ireland better win the f**kin' WC for him now if that's his genuine intent!  We'd owe it to him to end it all on the crest. The fairytale ending .....................

I think the issue is with Joe's son who has a severe form of epilepsy and has a lot of seizures. I don't see how the ABs job would suit him because it would mean he would be away from home a lot which is very hard on his wife coping alone with her son's illness. From what they said on the radio this morning, Joe is very close to his mother and she is getting on a bit so wants to go back for both parents sake.

I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to teaching and maybe coaching an underage team for a few years.

This whole thing has been well organised by the IRFU - only thing is that it has overshadowed Sexton winning world player of the year, but maybe Sexton wanted it this way!

I wouldn't be surprised if ROG is the new backs coach - timing is working out very well from contract point of view and ROG has mentioned his wife wanting to come home to be nearer her parents who are getting on a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if POC will be back soon enough - seemingly his wife isn't that happy in Paris.

Irish feckers are so inelegant. They always hate Paris/France. Why is that? Too much wine in the beer glasses? To many cigarette butts in the escargot?
Tell me someone! I gotta know!

SecretFly wrote:Irish feckers are so inelegant.  They always hate Paris/France.  Why is that?  Too much wine in the beer glasses?  To many cigarette butts in the escargot?
Tell me someone!  I gotta know!

ROG and his wife obviously liked it. Zebo seems to be enjoying it as well. I think its mainly a bit tough on the wives as they are stuck at home with small kids and no family/friend help.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Irish feckers are so inelegant.  They always hate Paris/France.  Why is that?  Too much wine in the beer glasses?  To many cigarette butts in the escargot?
Tell me someone!  I gotta know!

ROG and his wife obviously liked it. Zebo seems to be enjoying it as well. I think its mainly a bit tough on the wives as they are stuck at home with small kids and no family/friend help.

Yeah, well they can speak French, I reckon.  So a good start.

Sexton and Paulie can speak French too (and presumably Sexton was always at it to his team mates).  But it's to be presumed that it might have translated plenty good in interpretation but wasn't overly appreciated in tone.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Irish feckers are so inelegant.  They always hate Paris/France.  Why is that?  Too much wine in the beer glasses?  To many cigarette butts in the escargot?
Tell me someone!  I gotta know!

ROG and his wife obviously liked it. Zebo seems to be enjoying it as well. I think its mainly a bit tough on the wives as they are stuck at home with small kids and no family/friend help.

Paris isnt that nice to be honest. Kind of a dirty city. Almost any other rugby playing city in France would be nicer.

Think if I had to choose the AB three for next four years it would be Andy Farrell, Schmidt and Crusaders Robertson.

For one, no one else would have those pesky two closing the game down, we'd apply a balanced approach to defence and attack, not as helter skelter on attack as it is now, and not as 'hogish' as it is in the north.

If Ireland get the GS will they go to number one given ABs play no further tests till mid year?

Im assuming a bunch of .19 or whatever it is will send them crawling bit by bit to the AB total, a bit like the tortoise and the hare, where the hares decided to get some sun.

Taylorman wrote:

Im assuming a bunch of .19 or whatever it is will send them crawling bit by bit to the AB total, a bit like the tortoise and the hare, where the hares decided to get some sun.

We had to wait a whole year to get the miserable point we got by beating your guys! That's neither tortoise nor hare - that rigor mortis. Now we gotta play with the kids again for another season. They got nothing much to give us. Don't blame us, can't steal much from the poor.

I think you need to declare a national holiday when you hit no. 1, free Guinness for all.

I was never really a big fan of Schmidt in the beginning but it is very clear what he has done for Ireland. He has been Irelands best ever coach by a country mile, there is no denying that.

What he has also done is he will leave a legacy of player development of which Ireland have never seen before. I truly hope that this philosophy is followed after he departs.

I wonder if (or more likely when) the RFU will come hunting for Farrell for the Head Coach position. I'm sure this would be a position that Farrell would fancy, it's going to be interesting to see how things pan out post WC.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wonder if (or more likely when) the RFU will come hunting for Farrell for the Head Coach position. I'm sure this would be a position that Farrell would fancy, it's going to be interesting to see how things pan out post WC.

Interesting little proposition Pooly.  A few things there for thinking about.

Firstly.............. the IRFU have proven now for perhaps a decade that they're no fools when it comes to forward planning and thinking.  Can't put all progress down to Joe Schmidt.  There are a lot of cute hoor calculators in that organisation.  So................ they got their contract in early with Farrell.  Didn't really have to.  Could have waited to see what coaches were available after WC.  But they signed up Farrell pronto.  And if truth be told, that happened quite a few weeks or months ago.
So does that mean they think they have Farrell hooked good and safe before England come looking?  Not necessarily.  All they know is that someone is going to have to be compensated if England DO come after Farrell post-WC and he really wants to go.  So IRFU have covered all options with the fast signing.

Secondly.  What position might England really offer Farrell?  Straight into Head Coach role?  After all, they have Mitchell already in situ.  Maybe he wants the Head Coach role if it became available and England do well in WC.  If it were another assistant's role that Farrell was offered, perhaps his ambition now wouldn't allow him to go back down when he has a Head Coach role waiting for him in Ireland.

Thirdly.  Now, I know business is business.  But humans are still human too (....for now. China might be changing that as we speak).  And I'm sure a degree of sourness would still be in the mind of Farrell (and Lancaster) that they were so coldly dropped.  Maybe Farrell would feel that even more so since he wasn't a Head coach.  Now, like I say, they're mature enough to know biz is biz but they are still human.  When nobody seemed to want either of them, Ireland gave them both a job.  They've repaid in kind respectively.  They've both had a big impact in their respective roles.  So if push comes to shove, maybe Farrell will just allow mutual respect and honour will keep him with Ireland/IRFU rather than going home just yet.

Fourtly............ if Farrell did go back to England post-WC, we'd just sign Eddie............. for the craic.  "Everyone hates the Irish.  But we like that.  We thrive on it.  So f**k the lota you other sorts in Europe.  You're all fair dinkum schidts!"   Oh I do look forward to Eddie doing our new PR spokesperson.

Sin é wrote:I think the issue is with Joe's son who has a severe form of epilepsy and has a lot of seizures. I don't see how the ABs job would suit him because it would mean he would be away from home a lot which is very hard on his wife coping alone with her son's illness. From what they said on the radio this morning, Joe is very close to his mother and she is getting on a bit so wants to go back for both parents sake.

I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to teaching and maybe coaching an underage team for a few years.

This whole thing has been well organised by the IRFU - only thing is that it has overshadowed Sexton winning world player of the year, but maybe Sexton wanted it this way!

I wouldn't be surprised if ROG is the new backs coach - timing is working out very well from contract point of view and ROG has mentioned his wife wanting to come home to be nearer her parents who are getting on a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if POC will be back soon enough - seemingly his wife isn't that happy in Paris.

Lancaster to Ireland and RoG to replace him at Leinster might be a possibility?

So Farrell gets the job.  

Something was said offhand in some newspaper that I'm only remembering now.  There was a suggestion that the IRFU will be sorry to see Joe go but that they might secretly see the positive being that they regain more control of the selection processes in and around the coaching squad.  Now we all know that Joe demanded it was his way or he was on the highway.  And he was ruthless in that area with media as much as with IRFU suits.

So if ROG or POC were dropped into the Ireland side as assistants, would such an occurrence be the wish of Farrell or done over his head?

I don't think I'd like a return to the latter.  International Head coach must be trusted to have a feel for his best assistant options if available to him.  That's part of the coaching job...having the mind to know who else would serve your vision well.

I personally think that Farrell is a very strong personality and he would have learnt a lot from Schmidt so I doubt that he would be dictated to in regards to his coaching team. Advised, maybe but certainly not instructed.

eirebilly wrote:I personally think that Farrell is a very strong personality and he would have learnt a lot from Schmidt so I doubt that he would be dictated to in regards to his coaching team. Advised, maybe but certainly not instructed.

You'd hope.  But that would be all in a contract.  So hope Farrell is smart enough to look at the small print in his

We got told that allegedly Joe had to fight for autonomy as the stickiness of the IRFU didn't automatically want to give it.  Joe Schmidt also killed off the idea of IRFU people being required to look over and 'approval stamp' his teamsheets in advance, didn't he?

That wasn't all that long ago.  IRFU have undoubtedly people that are progressively minded but in every organisation there are the people who want to assert power even without the accumen.  It's always a struggle.  So I just hope there is no sliding and slipping back to any old ways.  Such a reverse would kill off Ireland's progress faster than a bad coach would.

I think Farrell is there long enough to understand the job remit and structures.

I do think Lancaster will come in on some capacity, maybe assistant or attack coach and possibly Payne as well. Brown did suggest recently that if Schmidt left the ex England duo would replace him but I don't think there will be anything else announced this side of the RWC.

The main concern I have is will the dynamic change in the current coaching team now it is open the Schmidt is leaving, although I expect within the group it was known already.

How and why Payne rodders?

And what dynamic change would there be? Farrell overruling Joe on fine points of detail?

Hmmmm.....WW3 approaching if someone tries changing the dynamic before Joe is out the door. He'll run the ship as tight as he always does.

eirebilly wrote:How and why Payne rodders?

Well if Farrell moves to the head job then I presume there will be a defensive vacancy. Payne is the obvious choice given he was fast tracked into coaching by Joe and Nucifera.

From an AB perspective be interesting to hear Farrells thoughts on Schmidt and Gatland having coached with Gats on the Lions tour and Schmidt. Hed probably be in the best position to provide the NZRFZU with a comparison. I think Gats has fallen from favour in terms of top posn. But he did well with the Lions and has had his moments with Wales, at least resembling more of a 15 man approach the last few years. Even now Wales are coming on pretty well.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I personally think that Farrell is a very strong personality and he would have learnt a lot from Schmidt so I doubt that he would be dictated to in regards to his coaching team. Advised, maybe but certainly not instructed.

You'd hope.  But that would be all in a contract.  So hope Farrell is smart enough to look at the small print in his

We got told that allegedly Joe had to fight for autonomy as the stickiness of the IRFU didn't automatically want to give it.  Joe Schmidt also killed off the idea of IRFU people being required to look over and 'approval stamp' his teamsheets in advance, didn't he?

That wasn't all that long ago.  IRFU have undoubtedly people that are progressively minded but in every organisation there are the people who want to assert power even without the accumen.  It's always a struggle.  So I just hope there is no sliding and slipping back to any old ways.  Such a reverse would kill off Ireland's progress faster than a bad coach would.

I don't think that is true. Nucifora (who was brought in by the IRFU) is the hatchet man and he certainly does his own thing and seems to have full control of everything. Fortunately for the IRFU, he worked well with Joe.

It is true that Joe did insist on changes to the structure of the selection process being contingent to his acceptance of the position of Ireland coach. There used to be a selection committee for example which was done away it on Joe's request.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think the issue is with Joe's son who has a severe form of epilepsy and has a lot of seizures. I don't see how the ABs job would suit him because it would mean he would be away from home a lot which is very hard on his wife coping alone with her son's illness. From what they said on the radio this morning, Joe is very close to his mother and she is getting on a bit so wants to go back for both parents sake.

I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to teaching and maybe coaching an underage team for a few years.

This whole thing has been well organised by the IRFU - only thing is that it has overshadowed Sexton winning world player of the year, but maybe Sexton wanted it this way!

I wouldn't be surprised if ROG is the new backs coach - timing is working out very well from contract point of view and ROG has mentioned his wife wanting to come home to be nearer her parents who are getting on a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if POC will be back soon enough - seemingly his wife isn't that happy in Paris.

Lancaster to Ireland and RoG to replace him at Leinster might be a possibility?

I think that would be a mistake - if they did well they could both move back to England together and that would leave Ireland in a right old hole with no succession planning.

ROG, Girvan & Felix Jones have all been involved (doing an interview?) with Ireland over the last few years.

Collapse2005 wrote:It is true that Joe did insist on changes to the structure of the selection process being contingent to his acceptance of the position of Ireland coach. There used to be a selection committee for example which was done away it on Joe's request.

I think that theory about who was selected is a load of old cobblers. People read too much into Kidney meeting the IRFU on the Friday night before a match for a few drinks when the team would have been announced earlier that day.

eirebilly wrote:How and why Payne rodders?

Payne maybe in the future, but he needs to get some experience under his belt first of all.

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:It is true that Joe did insist on changes to the structure of the selection process being contingent to his acceptance of the position of Ireland coach. There used to be a selection committee for example which was done away it on Joe's request.

I think that theory about who was selected is a load of old cobblers. People read too much into Kidney meeting the IRFU on the Friday night before a match for a few drinks when the team would have been announced earlier that day.

Nope its 100% true. The DoR post was at Joe's request as well as was more input into the provinces and were stipulations for him to take the post.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:It is true that Joe did insist on changes to the structure of the selection process being contingent to his acceptance of the position of Ireland coach. There used to be a selection committee for example which was done away it on Joe's request.

I think that theory about who was selected is a load of old cobblers. People read too much into Kidney meeting the IRFU on the Friday night before a match for a few drinks when the team would have been announced earlier that day.

Nope its 100% true. The DoR post was at Joe's request as well as was more input into the provinces and were stipulations for him to take the post.

From what I recall there was a move in that direction in a review announced in the 2008-12 strategic plan.

Sin would it be fair to say that you have always been fairly reluctant to give Schmidt the credit he deserves?

Collapse2005 wrote:Sin would it be fair to say that you have always been fairly reluctant to give Schmidt the credit he deserves?

No.

I actually think we're being hit twice. Didn't see until today that Greg Feek is also going after the WC? I'd guess he's been a pretty big part of Ireland and Leinster's success jigsaw too.

Not good news. Ireland might be rattled more than we think going into 2020.

SecretFly wrote:I actually think we're being hit twice.  Didn't see until today that Greg Feek is also going after the WC?  I'd guess he's been a pretty big part of Ireland and Leinster's success jigsaw too.  

Not good news.  Ireland might be rattled more than we think going into 2020.

As long as its not either Reggie Corrigan or Graham Rowentree, I'll be happy!

Isn't Feek gone already - working part time and also working in Japan? He might continue doing that - just coming in for 6Ns, AIs and tours - 3 or 4 months work. His family are back in NZ anyway.

Everyone's family is back in New Zealand these days!

My family is back in New Zealand too.... It's the IN place to be from where you gotta get back to for the family.

Even ROG can't hang around in Irish studios or go for a drink in Dalkey no more. "Hey kids, I gotta run and get back to my family in New Zealand."

ROG's family are in Paris finishing their schooling there.

......................Ahem!............................. Did I spill the beans on him? I meant...em....the other... family. But forget I said anything.......

Let's move swiftly along......................